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Greenhouse warming 100 times greater than waste heat

What the science says...

The contribution of waste heat to the global climate is 0.028 W/m2. In contrast, the contribution from human greenhouse gases is 2.9 W/m2. Greenhouse warming is adding about 100 times more heat to our climate than waste heat.

Climate Myth...

It's waste heat

"Global warming is mostly due to heat production by human industry since the 1800s, from nuclear power and fossil fuels, better termed hydrocarbons, – coal, oil, natural gas. Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2 play a minor role even though they are widely claimed the cause." (Morton Skorodin)

When humans use energy, it gives off heat. Whenever we burn fossil fuels, heat is emitted. This heat doesn't just disappear - it dissipates into our environment. How much does waste heat contribute to global warming? This has been calculated in Flanner 2009 (if you want to read the full paper, access details are posted here). Flanner contributes that the contribution of waste heat to the global climate is 0.028 W/m2. In contrast, the contribution from human greenhouse gases is 2.9 W/m2 (IPCC AR4 Section 2.1). Waste heat is about 1% of greenhouse warming.

Radiative forcing from waste heat vs anthropogenic greenhouse gas radiative forcing

What does these numbers mean? They refer to radiative forcing, the change in energy flux at the top of the atmosphere. Or putting it in plain English, the amount of heat being added to our climate. Greenhouse warming is currently adding about 100 times more heat to our climate than waste heat.

Last updated on 27 July 2010 by John Cook.

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Comments

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Comments 151 to 157 out of 157:

  1. Despite lightning's insignificance as an escape mechanism for energy, Tom's back of the envelope calculation for energy lost from Earth due to lightning is still fascinating.

    One of the few consolations for ceasely stirring the AGW pot is seeing such interesting appreciations for the flow of eye-popping amounts of energy hither and thither.  Yes, lightning isn't a big loss contributor but still the amount of power there is awesome.

    Thanks, Tom.

  2. Can we recast these figures in watts?

    Talking about change since 1750...

    Waste heat would be 14E12 W (based on Flanner which does the full accounts)

    I can't see how lightning isnt accounted for TOA loss, but is 2E10 W (total rather than change)

    Since the top of atmosphere is cooling not heating due to increase in GHG, I cant see why losses from mass ejection would increase (OS thinks they would), but with an escape velocity of 10.8 km/s and about 3kg/s lost, total losses (not change since 1750) is of order E11 W

    Change in energy at surface however since 1750 dues to increase in GHG is

    1.4E15 W

    No way to avoid the conclusion that waste heat is insignificant by comparison.

  3. I have speculated about a number of ways in which the earth can dissipate energy apart from i/r emissions and no doubt they play a part - especially if things get violent. However the relative importance of waste heat is coming up the conscience scale as models are now beginning to refer to 'urban hotspots'.

    I think the following argument will show why waste heat is more important than the simplistic arguments which seek to dismiss it.

    You have to return to the fundamental physical - not organic -phenomena which makes the earth's response to variations in incident energy so robust.

    From afar, the earth is a spheroid which will see its surface temperature vary by 1 deg K (around 300 say) for every 1.35% change in solar energy - whether by orbit or output. So that degree of stability is pretty assured.

    Next, the difference between a cloud base at the bottom of the troposphere and top, ten miles, corresponds to a 0.5% change in the effective radiating surface area. It means that should the temperature rise by 1/3rd degree, it could be eliminated by increased radiation from elevated cloud cover.

    Despite argument to the contrary, it is a scientific fact that the major energy transfer agent from the surface is kinetic by gases.

    The physical mechanism for raising the emitting surface is that as water is the pervasive surface on earth, any general heating increases the water vapour content. Being lighter than all other gases (except Helium) it takes latent heat and acquired kinetic energy up to a point where it condenses into droplets. These radiate extremely efficiently so that a cloud effectively becomes the conversion mechanism for kinetic to radiant discharge. 

    The effective radiating surface is not just the radius effect. Each droplet radiates isotropically so do all those droplets within five characteristic absorption lengths of the surface adding to the output. The surface  also is lumpy with towering pillars of cloud. The mechanism deserves fuller treatment than I can cover here to show outbound exceeds downward but the net effect is to provide a temperature dependent height for a surface from which earth radiates.

    As CO2 is 2.5 times heavier than H2O, I doubt that there is a significant CO2 effect trapping heat above the topmost cloud cover.  I remain a sceptic over the overarching significance of CO2 when set against that of H2O.

    The upshot is that waste heat involves a huge lag between its generation and the  increase of H2O as required for temperature stability whereas all natural changes are immediate because the oceans are bathed by it. Waste heat is generated in concentrated areas over land and is different from the patterns which produce the jet stream and trade winds. That may have a greater impact on climate phenomena than anything. A mouse can upset a see saw balanced by two elephants.

    Of one thing I am sure, waste heat is not ignorable.

    Response:

    [JH] Unneccesary white space eliminated.

  4. old sage - There are more errors in your posting than are worth the time to point out. I'll simply list a couple of them.

    "Despite argument to the contrary, it is a scientific fact that the major energy transfer agent from the surface is kinetic by gases." False. See for example the Trenberth 2009 energy budgets, which note that ~97 W/m2 transfer from surface to atmosphere via evaporation and thermals, while ~396 W/m2 by IR, or a 4:1 ratio. Your assertion is not even close to reality. 

    "As CO2 is 2.5 times heavier than H2O, I doubt that there is a significant CO2 effect trapping heat above the topmost cloud cover." Again, False. CO2 is a well-mixed gas, present throughout the atmosphere. And in fact it's primary effect as a GHG occurs above where water vapor does. If your statement were correct, valleys would be uninhabitable due to CO2 levels, which is clearly _not_ the case. 

    Your post consists of pseudoscientific Woo - I would suggest doing some reading. The Discovery of Global Warming by Spencer Weart would be an excellent starting point. 

  5. Old Sage, you still appear to be labouring under a misapprehension over the basic operation of the greenhouse effect, that I pointed out to you earlier in the thread here.

    You write "As CO2 is 2.5 times heavier than H2O, I doubt that there is a significant CO2 effect trapping heat above the topmost cloud cover."

    The greenhouse effect depends on the temperature of the radiating layer in the atmosphere where outbound IR is not absorbed by CO2 (or H2O).

    Note also that the atmosphere gets colder with height, which means that the atmosphere also gets drier with increasing altitude because the water vapour precipitates out. 

    "I remain a sceptic over the overarching significance of CO2 when set against that of H2O."

    Well perhaps you should have read the realclimate article that I mentioned in my previous reply to your earlier comments.

  6. old sage - I will also note that you are recycling much of the same nonsense you put forth earlier in the thread (here and subsequent discussion). Said assertions on your part were nonsense, and eventually moderated/snipped as sloganeering.

    You do not appear to have added any actual content to your arguments at the current time. 

  7. Old Sage @153:

    1) "...the earth is a spheroid which will see its surface temperature vary by 1 deg K (around 300 say) for every 1.35% change in solar energy..."

    A 1.35% alteration in the solar constant represents a 3.23 W/m^2 change in TOA forcing.  That means OS is assuming a no net feedback climate sensitivity, ie, a climate sensitivity equivalent to 1.15 C per doubling of CO2.  That figure disagrees with nearly all studies of the subject, and is almost certainly inconsistent with the past history of the Earth's temperature variation, as is shown by the IPCC AR5:

    2) "...the difference between a cloud base at the bottom of the troposphere and top, ten miles, corresponds to a 0.5% change in the effective radiating surface area..."

    The actual difference in area between sea level, and 10 km above sea level is 0.31%.  That is not a 0.5% change in the effective radiative surface as the effective altitude of radiation to space is already approximately 5 km of altitude, meaning shifting the effective radiation to space to 10 km would only increase the effective radiation surface by 0.16%.

    3)  "It means that should the temperature rise by 1/3rd degree, it could be eliminated by increased radiation from elevated cloud cover."

    This assumes 100% cloud cover.  It also assumes the increased effective area of the clouds will have no effect on albedo.  These, however, are trivial flaws by OS's standards.  The beggest flaw is that he ignores the fact that the atmosphere cools with increased altitude.  As IR radiation to space is proportional to the fourth power of temperature, that means increasing the altitude of effective radiation to space reduces the radiation to space (which is the essence of the greenhouse effect).  Assuming a reduction in temperature of 6.5 K per kilometer of altitude, and an average surface temperature of 288 K, and allowing for the change in surface area, increasing the effective altitude of radiation to space from 0 to 10 km would reduce radiation to space by 64%.  The reduction from increasing the current effective altitude of radiation to space to 10 km is reduces the radiation to space by 32%.  This would require a substantial increase in the Earth's surface temperature to compensate (significantly greater than 10 C).  (It should be noted that these figures are calculated using OS's black body assumption of all radiation coming from just one level, which is false.  Using a realistic model the reduction in IR radiation, and hence the compensating temperaure increase prior to feedbacks would be less.)   

    4) "... it is a scientific fact that the major energy transfer agent from the surface is kinetic by gases."

    In fact, within the troposphere the dominant form of energy transfer between atmospheric layers is by convection (ie, kinetic by gases).  Contrary to KR, Trenberth adresses the different issue of transfer of heat between the Earth's surface (ie, dirt and rock, or water) and the atmosphere.  So OS is correct on this one, but while correct he is irrelevant.  The only form of energy transfer from the surface or atmosphere to space is by IR radiation (ignoring a very small amount of energy carried of by hydrogen and helium escaping to space).  The kinetic transfer of energy in the atmosphere establishes a very clear gradient in temperature, which limits the IR radiation to space as the effective level of radiation to space is forced higher in the atmosphere by greenhouse gases.

    5)  "The physical mechanism for raising the emitting surface is that as water is the pervasive surface on earth ..."

    As a side note, we see here that OS assumes the WV feedback rases the effective level of radiation to space, with together with the declining temperature with altitude makes it a strongly positive feedback.  He is, of course, unaware of the implications because his grasp of the physics is so poor.

    More importantly, water vapour is IR active.  That is, it absorbs IR radiation in part of the spectrum in proportion to its emissivity, and emits in the same part of the spectrum in proportion to its emissivity, and as a function that increases with increasing temperature.  Thus implicit in OS's argument is the fact that increasing the concentration of any IR actively gas (eg, CO2) in the atmosphere will increase temperature.

    6) "As CO2 is 2.5 times heavier than H2O, I doubt that there is a significant CO2 effect trapping heat above the topmost cloud cover."

    OS "doubts", but in the mean time observations* show the following:

    Note that while water vapour declines in concentration rapidly, being almost completely absent above 10 km in the atmosphere, CO2 remains near constant in the atmosphere up to 80 km in altitude.  The decline in water vapour concentration is because it precipitates out of the increasingly cold atmosphere.  Even in the tropics, atmospheric temperatures fall below freezing around 5 km of altitude, so that apart from in thunderstorms, water vapour is largely absent above that altitude.

    Even better, we can see which has the most effect on IR radiation to space, as it has been observed from space:

    The black body curves show the average temperature of gas radiating at that level.  As can be seen in the clear sky example, water vapour (to the left of the large notch at 650 cm^-1) has a brightness temperature in this example, of about 260-270 K, indicating its effective altitude of radiation is 4.6 km.  The large notch, however, is due to CO2.  Its brightness temperature is around 225 K, indicating an effective altitude of radiation of 11 km.  The spike in the center of the trough is because where CO2 most effectively absorbs, its effective altitude of radiation is in the lower stratosphere, which is warmer than the upper troposphere.

    Of course, you cannot fail to have noted the spectrum for the thunderstorm anvil, with a brightness temperature of 210 K, and hence an approximate altitude of 13 km.  High altitude clouds are amazingly effective greenhouse agents, but only high altitude clouds can get above the warming effect of CO2; and they occupy only a small proportion of the Earth's surface.

    These two observed spectrums (and countless others like them) show clearly, and by observational data, that OS's doubts exist only from failure to look at the evidence.

    (*The graphs are for the US Standard Atmosphere which is a standard specification of average US atmospheric conditions, primarilly used in aviation.  It is based on very detailed observations, but only approximates to those observations.)

    7) "The upshot is that waste heat involves ..."

    OS continues his evidence free ramblings.  The facts are that waste heat is dissipated very rapidly to the rest of the Earth's surface by winds.  For small wheather effects, that dissipation may not be fast enough so that it has some effect.  For climate, however, the dissipation is sufficiently rapid that the feedbacks for waste heat occure at the same pace and geographic scale as the feedbacks from increased CO2 concentration.  Therefore there effective impact on the Earth's climate is given to a first approximation by the scale of their globally averaged output.  That is, waste heat has one hundredth of the impact of increased CO2.

    In summary, OS demonstrates yet again that he has no clue about the basic physics involved in climate change, and a very poor, and in most areas, non-existent grasp of the relevant observational evidence.  He never-the-less is "sage" enough to think he knows better than scientists who spend their life studying the subject, and have gone over the observations and basic physical principles with a fine tooth comb.  His "sagacity" is, therefore, the sagacity of the witch-doctor rather than the scientist.

  8. I am linking to my discussion about nuclear power from here

  9. The paper from Mark G. Flanner (2009) "Integrating anthropogenic heat flux with global climate models" arrives at the following numbers for:

    Global "waste heat" flux: 0.028 W/m2 in 2005 and 0.059 W/m2 in 2040

    Regional "waste heat flux": up to 0.68 W/m2 in 2005 and 0.89 W/m2 in 2040 (both numbers for West Europe).

    In a regional to local level both greenhouse and waste heat warming can be significant, approaching the current level of greenhouse forcing (3W/m2) in some areas (table 2).

    This result supports the earlier, coarser work of  Chaisson (2008)  , "Long-Term Global Heating from Energy Usage", that arrives at the conclusion that global warming from waste heat alone can warm the planet by 3°C in 8 doubling times of the global non-renewable energy consumption. At a 2% growth rate in energy consumption this would happen in 280 years and at 1% growth rate in 320 years.

    I see no loophole in this result, indicating that carbon neutrality is a necessary, but by no means sufficient, condition to prevent overheating a planet. In the longer term, net energy neutrality is also necessary.

    Renewable energy that takes energy already in the environment can do the trick, and there are lots of it. On the other hand, carbon-neutral non-renewable energy sources like nuclear or fossil fuels with carbon capture and storage do not.

  10. green tortoise @159, that is a very valid point, and also applies to fusion power (if and when it becomes viable).  However, it places a cap on fision and/or fusion power at approximately the total current human energy use, or there abouts.  If the deployment rates were favourable, we would do well to transfer all human power consumption to fision and/or fusion now, and restrict future energy growth to renewables.  Unfortunately the deployment rates are not favourable, so that we are better of going straight to renewables with potentially some further construction of fision and/or fusion power to meet specific needs (marine transport comes to mind).

  11. I really don’t understand why we should worry about waste heat from human activity. Now and in the near future it’s negligible compared to the forcing from man-made GHGs, as the article makes crystal clear.

    The chart below – one of many interesting climate and energy charts available via the site of James Hansen and Makiko Sato – shows that the global energy consumption from waste heat generating sources (fossil & nuclear) was about 12 gigatonnes of oil equivalent in 2015. One tonne of oil equivalent is 42 gigajoules, so that represents a forcing of 0.031 watts/m2, slightly more than the number given in Flanner 2009, but still negligible. If the waste heat generation increased to 0.059 watts/m2 in 2040, it still wouldn’t be more than the CO2 forcing in 1874 or methane forcing in 1891 (relative to 1850), and nobody can claim that these greenhouse gases were a serious problem at that time.

    Energy chart

    What if the waste heat increased to a level equal to the modern CO2 forcing, about 2 watts/m2 relative to 1850? That would be 6 doublings or 64 times more than the 2015 number and finally enough to have a significant impact on the global climate, but it would still be a pretty minor problem. Why?
    Look at the energy consumption chart again. Since 1900 the energy consumption from fossil & nuclear has increased about 20-fold. What has all that energy done in addition to releasing a negligible amount of waste heat and a far more significant amount of GHG?

    It has powered almost all the human activity in this period!

    That includes urbanisation, transportation, agriculture, deforestation, mining, hunting, pollution and all kinds of economic activity that have caused large scale fragmentation or complete destruction of natural habitats and an increasing rate of extinctions. This is of course possible with muscle power too, but it’s much, much easier to, say, cut down a tropical rainforest with fossil fuel powered chainsaws and machines than with muscle powered axes.
    The GHG emissions from fossil fuel is definitely a serious problem, but I will claim that it pales compared to all the habitat destruction that has been made so much easier by all the energy available from fossil fuels. The fragmentation of habitats has also made the remaining pockets of nature more vulnerable to climate change, as it makes it harder for many species to adapt by migrating to other places.

    How can anyone imagine that it would be possible to increase this energy consumption and the related human activity by a factor 64 or even 256 (8 doublings) without completely wrecking the last remains of nature on this planet? What on Earth would we need all that energy for? An American lifestyle for hundreds of billions of humans? How should we feed them? Does anyone actually believe it would be possible to transform Earth to a global city akin to Coruscant in Star Wars without a complete destruction of all ecosystem services? A few watts of waste heat per square metre really is a trivial problem compared to this.

    Believing that human waste heat could grow to a level with significant global climate impacts without far more devastating consequences for all life on Earth isn’t just unrealistic, but complete madness!

  12. Responding to comment here.

    " it would be correct to state that such an atmosphere does not radiate IR."

    Anything with a temperature above absolute zero must radiate, including gases nitrogen and oxygen. What nitrogen and oxygen do not do is absorb IR (and then reradiate it).

    You seem to missing the fundimental point that exergy fluxes must balance. At any level in the atmosphere, the outgoing energy must balance incoming radiation. (and think about what "heat" is. Why discount ground heated by sun). If radiation reaching the surface (say) increases (as it does because of IR being reradiated when GHG increases), then temperature of surface must increase till outgoing radiation matches the incoming. Grab a physics textbook and revise blackbody radiation and Stefan-Boltzmann law.

    Heat is absolutely radiated to space all the time - and is measured by satellites. The amount of outgoing IR and its spectrum are completely consistent match GHG theory with extraordinary precision.

    If your notions were correct, what would you predict IR sensors on satellites would detect?

  13. scaddenp @162,

    The theory that all things hot radiate is a bit simplistic in this context. Absorbivity and emissivity are strongly connected. A shiny solid does not absorb so well and also does not emit so well. This is because the mechanisms that absorb are the same as those which emit.

    Thus N2 absorbs & emits only at very short wavelengths below 0.2 microns. O2 is a bit more reactive at lower energy radiation with absorption/emitting bands either side of visible light. There are also weak bands in the near IR at about 1 micron.

    But at lower energies deep in the IR, diatomic molecules like O2 & N2 simply do not have the flippy-floopy wobbles that are required to capture/emit longer wavelengths. So they cannot of themselves be warmed by such radiation or cool by emitting such radiation.

  14. MA Rodgers - fair enough, but main point was the AEBanner seems to be neglecting outflow to space. There is what seems to me a pretty wierd idea that heat from burning FF cannot result in radiation to space.

  15. Energy can cause Global Warming

    As we have relocated to a new thread, I think it might be helpful for possible new readers if I were to mention again my wordpress post at
    https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/154908990/posts/50

    MA Rodger @217 Big Picture

    Thank you again for your recent post, but I am afraid I’m rather puzzled about some of your questions.
    Quote 1. “If the 97% of the warming that didn’t end up in the atmosphere didn’t result from the AGW, what was the cause of it?” End quote.
    I cannot quite see what you are getting at here. But my best assessment is that, for the period 1961 to 2003, 31% of the increase in global heat content came from geothermal sources, 11% from anthropogenic energy and the remaining 58% presumably from the Sun. But this is puzzling, because for Earth’s energy balance, the energy received from the Sun is equalled by the energy radiated back to space.
    Quote 2. “And happily your numbers are not inaccurate within your grand theory that CO2 at 288K cannot emit photons at 15 microns because the energy of such a photon is roughly twice the average kinetic energy of a molecule in such a gas. But do remind me - what is the minimum number of gas molecules you require to create a collision? There is further consideration of the statistical profile of molecule velocity and the other means such molecules have of holding energy.” End quote.
    Firstly, I should like to clarify this point about the kinetic energy of a molecule at 288 K. It is not the average kinetic energy, whatever that means here, but the total kinetic energy of the molecule. In other words, even if the colliding molecule could somehow give up all its energy to the GHG, it would still be less than half that required to enable a subsequent photon.
    I think the answer to your question is probably 2, but the probability of an instantaneous collision involving more than 2 is very small, in view of the extremely short times taken. Subsequent collisions would have the same problem.
    However, a proper study with statistical mechanics is really needed on this matter. Please, is there a reader out there who would be prepared to consider doing this?
    Quote 3. “Simply put, to refute the existence of 15 micron IR being radiated by CO2 in the atmosphere is to popishly refute a whole pile of very straightforward physics. The IR can be measured.” End quote.
    I’m afraid you have totally misunderstood my position on this. I have never denied the ability of carbon dioxide, or any other greenhouse gas, to emit infrared photons. As you say, this is straightforward physics. A more careful reading of my posts should make this very clear.
    What I am questioning is the probability of CO2 to be raised to the required excited state by simple collision with other molecules in the atmosphere. The GHG theory does not require this; it relies on absorption of photons of the matching energy. Yes, standard physics.
    Please do not misrepresent my ideas and statements.

     

  16. AEBanner @165.

    Running through the difficulties your grand theory has to dodge.

    QUOTE 1

    If we were to divide up the global warming and allocate it to a source (as you do) - 11% to FF/Nuclear, 31% geothermal, 58% "presumably" the Sun - we are left with a highly unsatisfactory outcome. Firstly, this 11% value is a shift from your initial position which (@207 of a different thread) was suggesting that the FF/Nuclear input was "enough to explain the measured warming of the Earth's atmosphere." This is not saying four-times the measured atmospheric warming which is what you set out now. Secondly, where does this 11% value come from? Are you assuming the 159Zj of total global warming 1961-2003 set out in IPCC AR4 Fig 5.4 comes to something like 0.27Wm^-2 and the FF/Nuclear flux is calculated as some 0.03Wm^-2?  [NOTE - you may set this out on your web-page but if it is not set out here I am ignoring it. Your web-page is being 'corrected' so is not a 'published' source.] Thirdly, the geothermal energy flux is constant over time. Were this responsible for 31% of AGW which is running at 0.2ºC per decade, we would expect to have seen a 0.6ºC increase in global temperature over the past century and the century before that; indeed a 6ºC rise over the last millenium. Such a rise has not happened. Fourthly, IPCC AR4 Fig 5.4 provides values for the period 1993-2003 (0.55WM^-2) which are twice the rate of warming of the earlier period implying the earlier period averaged 0.14Wm^-2, a four-fold difference between the two periods. How can this be if the largest but 'presumed' energy flux in this grand theory was solar energy which has been declining over the period. Fifthly, if these energy fluxes from FF/Nuclear, Geo, Solar arrive within the global system and have no effect on the energy fluxes exiting the global system thus warming the global system, the energy accumulated then lost through the 11-years solar cycles would be an interesting and measureable test of your system as it is rather large. Where is this energy fluctuation?

    QUOTE 2

    You don't seem to realise that the kinetic energy of a molecule within an gas is not fixed. There is a large distribution of velocities (& differing masses) as the whole bishes and bashes iteself within the volume. And there are lots and lots of molecules and lots and lots of collosions, that relative to the number of photons emitted. You do seem to arrive at some of this learning yourself as you begin by misinterpreting the word "average" and end by asking for help in Statistical Mechanics.

    QUOTE 3

    Firstly, you misinterpret the mechanism by which an IR photon escapes the planet, this a matter of "standard physics." You are assuming that a CO2 molecule that captures such an IR photon will then wiggle for a while before shooting the IR photon away in some unspecified direction, this allowing an upward migration of IR photons up and out of the atmosphere. If this were true, the origin of the IR photons should be considered, so see the second point below. While essentially the process results in an outcome not greatly dissimilar to it being true, the "standard physics" says it isn't true. While a CO2 molecule will take on average tenths of a second to emit a photon from its excited state, such a molecule is in collisions in milliseconds. As the excited state is a mechanical wobble, a collision will interfere with the wobble and the energy is almost always (given the large number of collisions) absorbed by the air. The photon is emited by subsequent collision-induced excited states which are many more than photn-induced excited states. Secondly, you misinterpret yourself!! If the 15 micron IR photons do not originate from air but are simply transmitted through the air abet with CO2-redirections: if this were true, where do these photons originate from and where do they end up? If the atmosphere is a neutral transmitter, the origin must be the planet surface. And the destination must either be back to the planet surface or outer space. If the former were to increase, less photons escaping into space, this will of course result in an increase in temperature and thus an increase in photons launched up into the atmosphere. Golly, have we just stumbled upon a wrming planet and way of cooling down the warming? How does that impact your grand theory which has no such mechanism?

  17. Energy causes Global Warming

    michael sweet @218 Big Picture

    Volcanoes; yes, very interesting.
    But first I wish to make a distinction between sensible heat and radiant heat. Sure they are both forms of heat energy, but they need to be considered differently in the Earth’s system.

    Sensible heat is the energy of the molecules in a gas due to their motion; that is their kinetic energy.
    Radiant heat is the energy of an emitted electromagnetic photon. In general, this energy is greater than the kinetic energy of a moving molecule.

    Radiant energy is due to the vibrations of the atoms and molecules in a solid and a liquid. The so-called “black body” radiation.
    The nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere do not vibrate, and so they cannot emit radiation. The GHGs, of course, can absorb and thence re-emit photons of infrared energy.

    The energy given out by a volcano consists partly of the sensible heat of the gases, and partly radiant energy from the hot lava and adjacent land surfaces, and the hot material particles also ejected. So, the radiant energy can, indeed, be emitted to space.

    The sensible heat energy goes mainly into the oceans, as we can see from the Figure 5.4 taken from the IPCC AR4 report and conveniently reproduced for us by MA Rodger in his post @215 Big Picture. Once in the oceans, the energy can then be radiated away to space.

    I hope this answers your question satisfactorily.

  18. Energy causes Global Warming

    scaddenp @162

    I think the post by MA Rodger @163 and my post @167 answer your points adequately.

    Of course, energy fluxes must balance where possible, as with energy from the Sun.
    But, if additional energy enters the system and cannot be radiated away, then the temperature will increase.

  19. AEBanner,

    Your answer does not begin to answer my question.  

    You claim in your answer the "sensible heat" from volcanoes goes into the ocean.  You do not say what fraction of the heat that is.  Obviously the same fraction of volcanic "sensible heat" has to stay in the atmosphere as the fraction of human waste heat.   The ocean has no way to determine what heat is volcanic and what is human waste heat.  

    Let me presume that 97% of the heat goes into the ocean while 3% remains in the atmosphere.  97% of volcanic heat is still much more than the waste heat humans release.  In addition, you do not count the 3% remaining in the atmosphere when you make your calculation of accumulated waste heat.  If you count this heat in your calculation it will make the temperature go up way too much. 

    If 97% of the volcanic heat went into the ocean for 4 billion years (we can neglect that 4 billion years ago the volcanic heat was much higher) and accumulated there as you claim the ocean would have boiled away.  Obviously that has not happened.

    Please explain why all the accumulated heat has not boiled away the ocean.  

    Obviously the "sensible heat" from volcanoes has gone somewhere.  Scientists say that it has radiated out into space from black body radiation with the rest of the energy, including the "sensible heat" that humans have released. I have shown that it cannot accumulate in the ocean as you said.  Where do  you now say it goes????

    A word from an old chemistry teacher: when you do not understand what black body radiation is you cannot discuss the Earth's energy balance intelligently.

  20. Energy causes Global Warming

    MA Rodger @ 166

    Thank you again for a confused post, but I was saddened to find that you do not seem to have read my post on wordpress. I deduce this from your statement
    Quote “[NOTE - you may set this out on your web-page but if it is not set out here I am ignoring it. “ End quote.
    Please tell me that you have indeed read my blog.
    If you have not yet read it, then please grant me the courtesy and agree to read it.
    This is the link to assist you.
    https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/154908990/posts/50

    You may find the derivation and the excellent results intriguing.

    Another point, your quote 2. What is your problem with asking for help with a truly difficult task, such as the need for assistance with Statistical Mechanics, which is where we got to in our recent posts. Such a study could well resolve any difficulties.
    I really hope this could be achieved, whatever the outcome.

    Anyway, if you cannot bring yourself carefully to read my blog, then I see no further point in debating the issues with you. Please let me know your decision.

     

    Response:

    [DB]  Inflammatory snipped.

    Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right.  This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.

    Moderating this site is a tiresome chore, particularly when commentators repeatedly submit inflammatory or off-topic posts and simply avoid answering questions put to them. We really appreciate people's cooperation in abiding by the Comments Policy, which is largely responsible for the quality of this site. 
     
    Finally, please understand that moderation policies are not open for discussion.  If you find yourself incapable of abiding by these common set of rules that everyone else observes, then a change of venues is in the offing.

    Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it.  Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.

  21. AEBanner @170.

    Why would anybody expect a discussion of something not set out here at SkS that is non-published-&-still-being-amended. If your derivations and results are "excellent" & "intriguing", then bring them here for discussion!!! Of course, you will not be able to amend what you write about them, but that is a good thing, an honest thing.

    So bring it here or be gone yourself. And if you do remain, I will not let off correcting your comments while they continue here.

    As for Statistical Mechanics, the criticism was not in appealing for expertise in such a field, but that beforehand you bizarrely tried to suggest that an average kinetic energy of a gas molecule (a statistical quantity representing a measure of the total kinetic energy of each molecule) was different from the total kinetic energy of a gas molecule (which of course will vary from molecule to molecule).

  22. Energy causes Global Warming

    michael sweet @169

    Thank you for your new post. I’m sorry you believe I have not answered your questions about volcanoes. I thought I did quite well.

    However, if you wish, I shall be happy to try again. But this may incur some repetition in parts, for the sake of clarity and continuity.

    I feel sure you agree with my opening remarks in my initial response to you @167.
    And I do, in fact, know what “black body” radiation is about.
    But in my reply to you @167, I did not bring up the figures of 97% or 3%. So please let me know which of my posts you are concerned about. It would seem to be additional to your initial post. OK, no problem.

    Anyway, back to the volcanoes. As far as I know, the output from a volcano consists of hot lava, hot material particles, and much heat energy in the form of sensible heat, that is kinetic energy. And, of course, the adjacent land area will also be raised in temperature.

    The hot materials including lava, particles and the hot adjacent land will radiate energy, in line with black body radiation, which ultimately escapes to space. The sensible heat in the form of kinetic energy of the air molecules mainly enters the oceans, in line with the 97% value you are no doubt referring to from the IPCC AR4 report, and Kevin Trenberth’s 3% into the atmosphere. ( This latter subject to further interaction with the oceans and associated subsequent radiation.)

    But the important thing here is that the oceans, being liquid, will also radiate, eventually to space, and this will proceed to maintain a satisfactory balance. Yes, the volcano emissions started billions of years ago, but so did the balancing radiation, so maintaining a satisfactory temperature for the Earth’s surface, and not boiling away the oceans.

    Please let me know if I have not covered some matter you are concerned about.

  23. Energy causes global warming

    I should be very pleased to hear privately from anyone interested in this topic by e-mail at eddiebanner@outlook.com

    AEBanner

  24. AEBanner,

    You contradict yourself.  You have claimed that sensible heat emitted by humans accumulates in the atmosphere.  Yet you now claim that sensible heat from volcanoes is emitted to space as radient energy.  A contradictory argument can automatically be dismissed.

    You cannot have it both ways.  If human heat accumulates than volcano heat must also accumulate.  If volcano heat is emitted to space than human heat must also be emitted.  Since the volcano heat is so much greater it is the dominant effect.  

    Scientists have shown that waste heat is emitted to space in the year that it was created.  It does not accumulate from year to year as you claim.  It is interesting that the integrated amount of waste heat is the same order of magnitude as thje increased heat in the atmosphere, but we already knew that: it has been previously discussed here at Skeptical Science.

    I taught introductory college chemistry, including black body radiation,  for 10 years.  It is clear from your posts that you have no idea how black body radiation works.  Your calculations up thread demonstrate that to anyone who understands radiation.  

  25. Energy causes global warming
    michael sweet @174

    Thank you for your comments.  It seems that I was unable to help you. 

    Sorry about that.

  26. AEBanner ,

    in recent days, this thread has developed the nightmarish sensation where one feels to be . . . frantically running on the spot.

    Unfortunately, this sensation is not a rare occurrence in the comments columns here at SkS.   I am not talking about run-of-the-mill science denial by "skeptics" [pseudo-skeptics].

    The problem usually arises when the Irresistible Argument meets the Idee Fixe.   Sadly, each side feels it possesses the Irresistible logic.   Often the situation is a compound of a severe semantic incompatiblilty (unrecognised by the proponent) . . . and a fundamental misconception of the nature of the physical universe.

    Regarding the latter, would you [AEBanner] agree with the idea that "energy is energy" ~ and that, in our atmosphere, energy in the form of radiation [photons] does readily & rapidly change into sensible heat [molecular kinetic energy] and readily & rapidly also reverse that change? 

    (In fact, this conversion back and forth does happen many times per second.   For example, an Infra-Red photon may travel less than a metre before it is reabsorbed by another H2O (or CO2) molecule.)

    And that the gasseous molecules' translational kinetic energy exists over a broad distributional spectrum ~ at any one instant, a molecule may travel at a sedate 1 m/sec and yet a nanosecond later it has been knocked up to a decent fraction of the speed of light, and might also possess an intra-molecular vibrational energy far exceeding an IR photonic energy quantum equivalent.

  27. Eclectic @ 176

    Thank you very much for your very welcome post. It is good to see things their true perspective. In principle, I agree with most of what you say, with possibly a few reservations.

    The whole subject is extremely complicated, and for that reason I have been thinking that a study using statistical mechanics would be really helpful. But I realise that this would be long and tedious, and I cannot realistically hope that anyone might volunteer to take it on.

    So, I shall probably have to learn a lot more about the matter myself. It will not be statistical mechanics, but hopefully I might gain sufficient insight. I should be grateful if you could please point me to some relevant sources, if this is not asking too much.

    I suppose the crunch question is what proportion of an amount of energy entering the atmosphere as kinetic energy remains in the atmosphere, and where does the “lost” energy go to?

    Thanks again
    AEBanner

  28. AEBanner @177 ,

    it would be better to consider the "crunch question" in the context of :-

    Energy is energy ~ so we can say (in a sense) kinetic energy and photonic energy are two sides of the same coin.

    The atmosphere gains photonic and kinetic [what you have called sensible heat] energy from the ocean & land, and also partly from the radiation from the sun (plus a tiny amount of kinetic energy from the impact of solar wind particles).

    The atmosphere loses energy by (A) tranferring kinetic and photonic energy to the ocean & land, and (B) radiating IR photons to outer space.   Of course, kinetic energy cannot be lost to space, since the air molecules are gravitationally bound to Earth.   However, because kinetic & photonic energy forms are continuously & rapidly interchangeable, the result is in effect that all atmospheric energy is available for radiation to outer space.   It's all a matter of time and flow rate [flux].

    Therefore the atmosphere remains in a steady state of thermal equilibrium with its geothermal & human-industrial & solar input, being balanced by atmospheric radiational heat loss (excepting the small - but very important - temperature rise deriving from the newly-added greenhouse gasses in the modern era: in other words, from AGW ).

  29. "But, if additional energy enters the system and cannot be radiated away, then the temperature will increase."

    Let me if I this right. You are claiming that heat from the sun, volcanoes etc can be radiated away but heat from burning FF cannot? The 1023J from FF stays in atmosphere, but 4x1026J from radiation is irradiated away.

    Furthermore, your calculations on what energy of gases seem to assume a limit based on mean energy per molecule rather than the distribution of energies of molecules in the gas, though I see some this has now been deleted, so that is progress.

    The biggest issue is the idea that energy from FF is special and cant escape to space. So a surface heated by the sun will irradiate to space, but a surface heated same temperature by oil or coal will not? This does not make sense,

    "Initially all the energy enters the atmosphere." Huh?? and subsequent paragraphs mean that assume the energy enters the atmosphere only by increased kinetic energy of gases. Maybe your "initially" is misunderstood. When I am in thermal power station (where I have spent rather a lot of time), a rather useful amount of the energy from FF go into electricity though it will eventually get converted. Some heats the air and goes up the chimney but most is lost to environment via the cooling tower into water. And, boy to some parts of the plant irradiate IR!!!

    I fail to see what is so special about these energy conversions that prevent the loss to space?

  30. scaddenp @179.

    The commenter AEBanner seems to have run out of substantive comment. Perhaps we should recap and properly expose the level of nonsense he is spuoting.

    Taking the two periods 1961-2003 and 1993-2003 as these are used within IPCC AR4 Fig 5.4, we have respectively 159 Zj and 89 Zj accumulation within the global system of which 5 Zj and 2 Zj are atmospheric accumulations.

    IPCC AR4 Fig 5.4

    We could also add the energy lost to space because the globe is warming at 1.8ºC/decade, but the commenter AEBanner seems loathed to include such large numbers in his calculations.

    This Our World Data web-page gives easy downloads of annual primary energy use back to 1965 which can be interpolated back to 1961. For the two periods 1961-2003 and 1993-2003 FF+Nuclear primary energy total 11 Zj and 3.4 Zj respectively.

    This would leave anyone scratching their head as to why AEBanner could use this data "to offer an alternative theory to explain global warming" which is what he came to SkS proclaiming and, despite all the massive holes picked in his grand theory since then. he insists his grand theory has not come crashing down.

    Perhaps the full horror of his grand theory should be exposed.

    Visiting the nonsense he sets out elsewhere on the web (there are links up-thread but it requires registration which seems a little haughty for what it is), I see calculations for primary energy 1966-2016 which appear fine (18 Zj) and this is split between NH (164 Zj) & SH (16 Zj) which may or may not be fine. These are then used to calculate surface temperature rises over the period for each hemisphere by calculation how much warming this energy would provide to dry air. The curious method employed (increase in kinetic energy per molecule x no of molecules in troposphere) yields him temperature increases for the period of NH =  0.61ºC, SH = 0.06ºC (or would do if he followed his own method). These are reconciled with surface temperature increases for the period, (which are curiously sourced , one from GISS NH = 0.75ºC & one from HadCRUT SH= 0.55ºC); reconciled for the SH by assuming warming from the oceans, in SH +0.51ºC and because it has less ocean in NH an adjustemnt of +0.38ºC is included to obtain +0.99ºC. Strngely the final step which is traditional within such ridiculous calculations has not been made - subtracting the number you first thought of - so even for a pile of rubbish it is not complete.

    Note the energy calculated for the IPCC to warm the atmosphere (5 Zj & 2 Zj) are far lower than the FF+Nuclear primary energy use for the periods in question (11 Zj & 3.4 Zj) yet commenter AEBanner manages to not find enough energy to warm his atmosphere and has then to employ some magical mermaids to provide the rest.

  31. Eclectic @178

    Thank you for another excellent posr.

    You have a way of making things very clear, in a positive and constructive manner. 

    AEBanner

    Response:

    [DB] You also need to address the comments and questions pitched to you in comments 174179 and 180.

  32. Energy causes Global Warming

    michael sweet @174

    In this post you have completely misrepresented some of my ideas/remarks; in reality, you are not the only one to have done this previously.
    Or perhaps you have simply completely understood my post @172
    Or again, perhaps, you carelessly made a genuine mistake, in which case no apology is expected.

    I quote your first two paragraphs.
    “You contradict yourself. You have claimed that sensible heat emitted by humans accumulates in the atmosphere. Yet you now claim that sensible heat from volcanoes is emitted to space as radient energy. A contradictory argument can automatically be dismissed.
    You cannot have it both ways. If human heat accumulates than volcano heat must also accumulate. If volcano heat is emitted to space than human heat must also be emitted. Since the volcano heat is so much greater it is the dominant effect.
    End Quote.

    Now I shall quote from my own previous post @172 to you, last three paragraphs.

    My Quote
    “Anyway, back to the volcanoes. As far as I know, the output from a volcano consists of hot lava, hot material particles, and much heat energy in the form of sensible heat, that is kinetic energy. And, of course, the adjacent land area will also be raised in temperature.

    The hot materials including lava, particles and the hot adjacent land will radiate energy, in line with black body radiation, which ultimately escapes to space. The sensible heat in the form of kinetic energy of the air molecules mainly enters the oceans, in line with the 97% value you are no doubt referring to from the IPCC AR4 report, and Kevin Trenberth’s 3% into the atmosphere. ( This latter subject to further interaction with the oceans and associated subsequent radiation.)

    But the important thing here is that the oceans, being liquid, will also radiate, eventually to space, and this will proceed to maintain a satisfactory balance. Yes,
    the volcano emissions started billions of years ago, but so did the balancing radiation, so maintaining a satisfactory temperature for the Earth’s surface, and not boiling away the oceans.”

    End my quote

    You will see that I wrote that, in respect of volcanoes, sensible heat in the form of kinetic energy of the air molecules mainly enters the oceans.
    Then see my third paragraph.

    Another quote from your @ 174

    Scientists have shown that waste heat is emitted to space in the year that it was created

    End quote

    This, at least, is interesting. Please grant me the courtesy of a reference to this.

     

  33. Energy causes Global Warming

    scaddenp @179

    Do you not agree that heat from the Sun, volcanoes, etc, can be radiated away to space?
    But sensible heat from the burning of fossil fuels, ie kinetic energy of the air molecules, cannot be radiated. It must first be converted into “photon” energy by collision with GHG molecules. Perhaps you can provide a number for the proportion of greenhouse gas molecules in the atmosphere which can undergo the required excitation per unit time,
    together with a reference for me to follow up?
    This would really be helpful, and I should be grateful for the information.

    Of course, you are correct in stating that burning fossil fuels can possibly raise the surrounding structures to a temperature at which radiation could become significant, but I have no idea regarding the proportion relative to kinetic energy emission.
    Again, I hope you can reply quantitatively, with references. It would be a great help.

    Many thanks, in advance.

  34. Volcanoes, surfaces warmed by sun or atmosphere - and car engines say - all directly emit radiation in proportion to their temperature.

    In a power station, energy losses from heat radiated by the boiler and lost as hot gases escaping the flue are typically only 10-20% of the energy value of the fuel. ( I am working with efficiency analysis tools from power station data, but I think this is easily discoverable online). In a car, the losses are much higher.

    Still, cooling systems do heat the air, but the air has no trouble emitting IR. There is nothing special about the air warmed by FF compared to it warmed by any other mechanism. You can measure it with a pyrogeometer. Scienceofdoom walks you through the text book here.

  35. AEBanner ,

    if I may add to Scaddenp's comment :

    the answers you seek are to be found in basic science textbooks.

    Gasseous molecules collide with each other at a rate of billions of times per second (not millions but literally billions of times per second, even in the cold upper troposphere).   Not surprising, since air molecules are close together and move at mostly 100 - 600 m/sec [plus faster and slower outliers] for upper troposphere (see Maxwell-Boltzmann distributions). 

    The frequency rate of photon emissions is many orders of magnitude lower than that ~ but even so, we are talking of a vast rate of photon emissions.   And that is why I mentioned (in earlier posts) that kinetic energy & photonic energy are continuously interchanging.   The "churn" rate is so high, that we can fairly consider kinetic/photon energy as representing two sides of one coin.

    That is why we cannot consider kinetic energy as a separate sequestered form of energy.   It makes absolutely no difference whether the atmosphere gains its energy from geothermal / human-industrial / ocean-land origin (or solar origin, of course).   It is all one.

    Heat energy (in both "sensible" and radiational forms) is continuously flowing into & out of the planetary air layer.   The air remains in near equilibrium thermally, but the flux rates are enormous.

    Heat transferred from air to ocean-land is sooner or later recycled back into the air ~ and thus the planet's energy gained from the sun does eventually meet the fate of being radiated from (mostly) the Top of Atmosphere ( TOA, mentioned earlier).   All that matters is the total amount of energy flows involved.

    That is why the idea of industrial heat specially accumulating over time, is quite impossible.   That's not how the universe works.

  36. AEBanner , 

    an addition :-  Somewhere earlier, you asked about the threshold temperature required for a gas to radiate photons.

    In practical terms, there is no threshold.   Owing to the wide spectrum of distribution of energies (kinetic energies) possessed by gas molecules, there will always be some [few or many] molecules temporarily possessing sufficient energy to generate & emit a photon.   So a gas will continue to radiate photons, at a dwindling rate, as the gas temperature lowers towards Absolute Zero.

  37. scaddenp @ 184

    Thank you for a very informative post.

    Just one small point, though. In your first sentence, I think you meant “in proportion to the fourth power of their Absolute temperature.”

    But, thanks, anyway.

  38. Eclectic @ 185 and @186

    Thank you yet again for two more excellent posts. Very informative and helpful.

    A question, though, if I may. When a GHG molecule collides with a nitrogen or oxygen molecule in the atmosphere, and is, therefore, raised to its excited state, does the ghg molecule’s temperature increase?

  39. AEBanner @188 ,

    you can see from the statistical composition of the atmosphere, that a GHG molecule is most likely to gain energy in a collision with a nitrogen or oxygen molecule.   And higher air temperature equals more & "harder" collisions per unit time, and therefore more photons emitted per unit time (with due allowance for mass/volume considerations i.e. air density).

    Air temperature derives from the average kinetic energy of the whole bundle of molecules (including the relatively rare H2O, CO2, and other GHG's) with, again, air density allowed for.   This kinetic energy also includes the vibrational mode of these molecules.

    An individual molecule is not said to have a temperature, since we are only concerned with averages here (and if you like to regard one individual molecule's velocity . . . then the velocity will be varying enormously with each collision i.e. varying billions of times per second, in a way totally impractical for our purposes).

    [ Once you get to the tenuous semi-vacuum of the mesosphere, some scientists will use the concept "kinetic temperature" for certain reasons of convenience.   But the super-low air density means it's still mighty chilly for us humans ~ even at a kinetic temperature of 300 degrees, my hand would gradually freeze if I poked it out of the port-hole of my spaceship (assuming I am in the Earth's shadow) ].

  40. AEBanner @188,

    Some very basic physics about gases. Your question is greatly confused. GHG molecules are not particular about which type of molecule they meet and collide with. The temperature of a gas is a measure of the average translational (ie movement in a straight line) momentum of the gas molecules. The Thermal Heat Capacity of a gas is greater than the sum of molecular translational momentum as there are molecules set spinning and wobbling (yes - the excited state which CO2 is in before it emits photons) and the presence of spinning and wobbling requires significant levels of extra internal energy within the gas. As temperature is a function of the average translational momentum within a gas, an individual gas molecule does not really have 'temperature' and if it did the 'excited state' is not treated as part of  that 'temperature', at least within ideal gas law.

    Note that I use the word "average translational momentum." There is a distribition of such molecular momentum within an ideal gas - the Boltzmann distribution. This straightforward piece of mathematics/physics should provide you an answer to your question @183:-

    "Perhaps you can provide a number for the proportion of greenhouse gas molecules in the atmosphere which can undergo the required excitation per unit time, together with a reference for me to follow up?"

  41. Eclectic @189

    Thank you yet again for another interesting and helpful post.

    Of course, I understand the need to talk about “a bunch of molecules”, rather than a single molecule. But suppose in a hypothetical scenario that all the nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the bunch collided with all the GHG molecules in the bunch, and gave up all their translational kinetic energy in raising the excited vibrational levels in the GHG molecules.
    What then would have happened to the average temperature of the bunch? With no remaining translational kinetic energy, this would presumably mean that the temperature of the bunch would then be determined by the vibrational energies. So would the overall temperature change?

    I really hope you can help me on this please.

  42. MA Rodger @ 171 and 190

    I quote again from your 166
    Quote “[NOTE - you may set this out on your web-page but if it is not set out here I am ignoring it. “ End quote.
    I went on to say
    “Please tell me that you have indeed read my blog.
    If you have not yet read it, then please grant me the courtesy and agree to read it.
    This is the link to assist you.
    https://wordpress.com/read/blogs/154908990/posts/50
    Anyway, if you cannot bring yourself carefully to read my blog, then I see no further point in debating the issues with you. Please let me know your decision.”
    Quote from your 171 So bring it here or be gone yourself. And if you do remain, I will not let off correcting your comments while they continue here.
    End quote
    In view of the vitriolic nature of this 171 offering, and as of 6/3/19, I have not seen your agreement carefully to read my blog, please understand that I wish no more “debating” with you

    Response:

    [DB] Your blog post requires Wordpress login verification, an undue imposition akin to a professor requiring a student to buy one of the professor's books before answering a question in class.  You can either accede to answering questions here about your claims (you brought your claims here) or you can concede the points made by other contributors.

    Continuing to reiterate the same talking points previously made (and previously addressed by other participants) is sloganeering and contrary to this venue's Comments Policy.

  43. AEBanner - you are ducking the question of why air heated by burning FF (which after all add GHG water and CO2 to atmoshere) is different from air heated by contact with a sun-warmed surface. Your notion depends on energy originating in FF combustion being trapped whereas energy originating from the sun can reradiate.

    To your question to Eclectic, thermodynamic temperature is the mean of the energy inherent in the translational, vibrational and rotational motions of the constituent particles in the ensemble.

  44. AEBanner , 

    I have not read your blog, and I concur with the moderator, in that I do not wish to jump through hoops nor "seed" my personal information throughout the internet ( more than it already is ! ).   Unfamiliar as I am with Wordpress protocol, I do note that quite a number of bloggers [for instance, the excellent Tamino blog] are directly available via googling, and without any "registration" or other time-consuming intrusions.   Perhaps you could re-arrange your blog, in a likewise manner.

    As to your "hypothetical" question @191 , please be aware that I am not a particle physicist.   I gather that there is complete conservation of energy in collisional interactions, so that the translational energy and vibrational energy are continually swapping back and forth among the atoms (with occasional photon absorption/emission events).    Therefore the hypothetical scenario you mentioned, is impossible i.e. meaningless.

    It would be better if you simply gave a clear idea of what is troubling you concerning mainstream science.

  45. AEBanner @192,

    I think you will find that I have read your blog. And "carefully"? Probably with more 'care' than with which you wrote it. Do note the final two paragaphs of #180. I managed to log on under GOOGLE removing one reason for not accessing your blog. And I have a cut&paste of its content. The worry that you will be tweeking your grand theory, using this thread to provide corrections; this isn't much of a worry having read its content. It is uncorrectable nonsense. But then the folk who may draw comfort from a snipe at GHG-created AGW will certainly be less than happy to see the logical conclusion from your illogical argument. That is, of course, to stop generating our power from FF or Nuclear. Mind, the projections of global temperature given for 2066 are a bit low. But as is all nonsense, it doesn't really matter.

  46. I was not aware of the problems accssing my blog on wordpress.

    In view of the moderators response to 192, I shall not be making any further posts on SkS.

    Thank you, and Good-Bye.

    "Others may have opinions, but its the numbers thst count"

  47. So do you suppose that is a "no" from AEBanner - he cannot find a way to explain to why air heated by FF should retain energy whereas air heated by the sun loses energy to space?

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