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Comments 2751 to 2800:

2751. peppers at 21:04 PM on 5 January 2023
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Thank you moderator. Understood, Best D

2752. MA Rodger at 20:45 PM on 5 January 2023
      Skeptical Science New Research for Week #52 2022
      

      michael sweet @4,

      This document 'Global warming in the pipeline' by Hansen et al does appear to need some rewriting in my view.
      It explains it is the first of a pair (the second being 'Sea Level Rise in the Pipeline') and together they are perhaps akin to Hansen et al (2016) 'Ice melt, sea level rise and superstorms: evidence from paleoclimate data, climate modeling, and modern observations that 2 °C global warming could be dangerous' which was more a discussion document than a piece of science. But given 'Global warming in the pipeline' starts off with our understanding of the greenhouse effect back in the 1800s, its audience is probably not climatologists, so not a discussion document, although it does get a bit 'detailed' in places where a good understanding of climatology is required.

      At 48 pages, it covers a lot of ground and as-yet I haven't read very far through it, down to page 12 which covers the assessment of ECS. But it does read a little odd.

      The Abstract tells us that "improved knowledge of glacial-to-interglacial global temperature change implies that fastfeedback equilibrium climate sensitivity is at least ~4°C for doubled CO2"

      The first thing that I felt odd was reference to Hansen et al (1984) 'Climate sensitivity: analysis of feedback mechanisms' but without a sign that this was such an old paper. The tempersture rise from the LGM used to calculate the ECS in Hansen et al (1984) is said to be +3.6°C, a value said to yield ECS=2.5 to 5°C. For me, that +3.6°C temperature increase is way below that usually quoted elsewhere for the post-LGM temperature rise.

      And 'Global warming in the pipeline' indeed then presents higher estimates of the temperature rise from the LGM: +6.8°C (± 0.8) in Osman et al (2021), +5.9°C (± 0.3) in Tierney et al (2020) and +5.8°C (± 0.6) for land SAT from Seltzer et al (2021).

      These are in keeping with values I've seen in literature for recent decades which usually sit +5°C to 6°C, perhaps the +6.8°C (± 0.8) in Osman et al (2021) a little higher than normal while some of those lower values have also persisted.

      And using such LMGR temperature increases, 'Global warming in the pipeline' then calculates ECS concluding "Thus, while the LGM-Holocene climate change implies ECS =3.3-5.1°C for 2×CO2, the PGM-Eemian implies ECS ~ 4-6°C. We conclude ECS is at least approximately 4°C and is almost surely in the range 3.5-5.5°C."

      What goes unsaid is that the literature used to source LGMR the temperature rise from the LGM also developes ECS values with ECS = 2.2°C to 4.3°C in Tierney et al (2020) (Fig 4 from this paper below, the R_AE accounting for 'mineral dust forcing') with Seltzer et al (2021) concurring with the central value of this, 3.4°C. For 'Global warming in the pipeline' to ignore these ECS values is entirely unscientific as we now have two values for ECS derived from LGMR which are at odds with each other.

      

      And the use of the PMG-Eemian temperature rise to calculate an ECS value is a novel and perhaps rather too adventurous as I don't know of such a use previously. 'Global warming in the pipeline' references Rohling et al (2017), a long paper which does not itself address ECS.

      So that is not a good start for a work which presents such startling findings.

2753. One Planet Only Forever at 07:24 AM on 5 January 2023
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Moderator,

      I agree that discussing population and nuclear is not on-topic here.

      The best location to discuss nuclear energy appears to be the following SkS Blog Post by scaddenp: Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

      That post and comments provide a wealth of relevant information. My only comment regarding nuclear energy has already been stated: To be lasting improvements, solutions to the harmful unsustainable fossil fuel climate change impact problem need to 'not be harmful and unsustainable alternatives'.

      I did not find a 'population' discussion location in SkS. Maybe there isn't one. And there probably shouldn't be one.

      Discussion regarding global population and development is part of the bigger UN Development Programme. Climate science regarding human climate change impacts is a subset of that larger issue. There is lots of great information available from the UNDP, including the annual UNDP Human Development Reports (one of my favorites is the 2020 HDR). 

2754. peppers at 19:08 PM on 4 January 2023
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      HI One Planet,

      Some really good and deep drilling down, and I appreciate the basic quest of common sense. As some of this line of thinking is not greatly established with data. We are noodling this out.

      There is an urgent need to alter our dependence on fossil fuel. I am finding mere lifestyle change to be questionable though. That could slow or unlikely halt the co2 increase if we could apply ourselves. But a real knockout punch is nuclear. I hear even Gretha is talking nuclear.

      I looked in to why the population has rocketed up to our current 8 billion. 

      NUmber one is medicine and health advancments. To drill down, number one of that is infant mortality decreasing and also life expectancy increasing overall. Specifically, upon the introduction of pennicillin in the early 1950's; worldwide life expectancy we went from 48 years in 1950 to about 69 now, going up in to the 70's for life expectancy soon worldwide. The links below also shows fertility rates dropping slowly, and specifically in USA while greatly increasing in Africa. This will present a shift from high producing locates to the low locates for co2 production over time, all else considered. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2015/04/02/main-factors-driving-population-growth/

      As a landlord, I am very aware of the utility and products use of children and infants. One initially thinks, they are smaller, they use less! Far be it! As in population increase causing the increasing use of fossil fuels, which are the producers of co2, the children cause the adults to consume very large additional amounts of energy to care for thier babies. Every form of increased waste and product use comes in to play, right up to selling the small sedan and buying an SUV, with no concern about much of anything except the best for caring for the babies. We do become a bit crazy, about babies.

      I think your premise of SkS's mission is correct, while we look to a solution the size of this sunami od human development. The increase of pressure of population is predicted to continue through this century, then abate. There is an overly simplified page from UCBerkeley about population increase:

      https://ugc.berkeley.edu/background-content/population-growth/

      https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

      Using the second link above, there is a highly useful chart built, where one can sort in many important ways. China emits twice our output of co2, and they are villified for it. However, they are at 1/2 the per capita than the USA. So they are 4 times larger than the USA and we emit 1/2 their level, as the USA is at 15.52 per capita and they are at a pretty low 7.38. If we cut our use down by 1/2, to 7.38, we would reduce global emissions of co2 by 7% and that reduction would exactly match the 7% we are expected to increase in population of adding the next billion in 14 years. Again, population is expected to balance about the end of this century and stop increasing (I have not explored why).

      I do not know what would be the lifestyle change that can make emmisions drop by 50%. More gain would be possible with worldwide reductions. There are 15 countries higher emitting than the USA, including Canada and Australia (which must have pretty good PR depts as they sound like they are on cutting edge!). The higher emitters total about 1/3 our population so the USA is the earliest target for sure, where the largest gain could be seen. And if a true worldwide effort succeeded, there is a chance to slow, stop and also reduce.

      But nuclear and continue using electric which is only a delivery method and not an energy source would do it. Nuclear would allow us to stop another problem, which is the villian making which is happening among the people. People are not getting it. For whatever reason. Note the shift of sedan sales flipping to SUV's about 2015, and now pickup trucks and SUV's sell double low emitting sedans. And shaming, goading, hampering, I hear mocking and debasing and endless ways of fracturing the peace being presented from all sides on this important topic.

      If. If it is a formula of population growth, bought on by historic medical discovery and advances, this is not any persons fault. Continuing awareness is appropriate, but will not produce the goals desired without running in to political opposition ( kill babies, reduced family sizes, really dramatic lifestyle changes, etc). And there is damage to the global psyche when peoples feel attacked. I categories much of the inappropriate responses to the horror approach of this ( folks are not explaining the problem and then asking for cooperation, for instance), and one could find explainations of any one responding badly when cornered. But I dont think people caused this by wanton debauched lifestyles. They are growing a lot of babies, which use a huge new amount of energy.

      Nuclear would be a response about on the scale of pennicillin coming on the scene, and handle this in the shortest time, with the greatest impact and stop this shaming and blaming of peoples as a response. This is urgent and important. We could feed the world with the surplus value of the current plans.

      A large part of this treatise is just noodling. It helps me think about it to write as I go. I appreciate the chance to drop this here. This is just my opinion, forming. Thanks all, D

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] This discussion is becoming increasingly off-topic. If the two of you wish to continue these discussions, please use the Search function to find a suitable place.

2755. One Planet Only Forever at 15:15 PM on 4 January 2023
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Peppers @91,

      The population issue may be better understood by performing the mental exercise of considering a case where the global population did not increase above 800 million.

      If, by today, the 800 million developed to be as harmful ‘annually in total’ as the current most harmful 800 million are, then the magnitude of harm done so far, and rate of harm done, would be less than the current problem of the 8 billion today. More people being harmful, even if they are less harmful people, will produce harm more rapidly. But the continued increase of harm done at a lower rate would eventually produce a similar level of harmful results.

      Once the harm being done was recognized (understandable) as something that had to be ended and undone (in spite of harmful efforts to promote misunderstanding, and ask questionable questions that have understandable answers, to delay the awakening of that understanding – prolonging understandably harmful misunderstandings that delay the reduction of harm being done), if each of the 800 million had developed a reasonably comparable level of harmfulness then they would all have a comparable responsibility for reducing their harmfulness. However, if the distribution of harmfulness was similar to the current distribution (refer to my comment @82 - the top 10% of the 800 million being as harmful as the top 1% of 8 billion, and the top 1% being like the current top 0.1%) then the common sense would be that the more harmful people, all of them, would need to more rapidly and more dramatically lead the learning and correction of behaviour.

      The problem is the examples being set by the supposedly more advanced portion of the population, combined with the development of desires in more people to develop to live that way (as you say “they too want to live as full a life as possible” incorrectly believing that ‘desiring to be more harmful’ is ‘Living fuller’ or that ‘living fuller’ excuses the harm done). That harmful result is unjustified and relies on harmful misunderstandings like the following (refer to my comment @90 for an alternate presentation of the same point):

      • those who are first to develop more harmful ways of living get to be more harmful
      • harmfulness has to be accepted, because some people desire things that are understandably harmful

      My point, unaltered by anything you have presented, is that unless there is a systemic ideological change that establishes the common sense that it is unacceptable for ‘desires’ to be obtained harmfully then any ‘solutions’ will likely be harmful and ultimately unsustainable.

      Fundamentally the developed common sense understanding includes:

      • the harmfulness of people continuing to ‘pursue desires (not needs)’ via harmful fossil fuel use is now undeniable because of climate science.
      • the development and proliferation of misunderstandings about climate science, including questionable questions related to the need for the most harmful people to most rapidly limit their harmfulness, is undeniably harmful because it delays the limiting of the harm done.
      • pursuing ‘solutions’ without acknowledging that only ‘meeting everyone’s basic needs’ is allowed to be harmful (with as little harm done as possible) will not produce sustainable solutions.

      The problem is not solved by the development of new technology or 'other solutions' in a system that does not recognize the need for ‘desires beyond the basic needs of living’ to be harmless. The desire for people to maintain and increase developed perceptions of ‘fuller’ living does not justify the added harm done while they try to delay the understanding of the growing urgency for their desired harmful actions to be more rapidly ended.

      Also, harmful climate change impacts due to fossil fuel use were the result of the pursuits of status through technology development competition in a system with success measured by popularity and profit. It is also common sense that some people harmfully resist learning about the harmful results of persistent and prolific presentations of misunderstandings regarding climate science. Even without the harmful delay of persistent misunderstanding, it is understandably unacceptable to ‘wait for the obviously harmfully inclined competition to end the harm it developed’. There is abundant evidence that limiting of harm done by activity related to fossil fuels (and other activities) has almost only ever happened through ‘regulation and restriction by Others who govern based on the pursuit of increased awareness and understanding of what is harmful’. Examples abound including: ending lead in gasoline, reduction of sulphur emissions, reduced particulate emissions, and improved fuel efficiency.

      As for your point “I cannot censor others because I now want to call their opinion harmful misunderstandings”. That is a version of an already pointed out misunderstanding/misrepresentation of my presented points. One more time, stated a different way:

      • the most serious population problem related to ‘climate science and understood to be harmful climate change impacts of human activity’ is the most harmful impacting portion of the population.
      • the harmful portion of the population is not excused by claiming that ‘others want to be like them’.
      • the small percentage who are most harmful are not excused by claiming that large numbers of other less harmful people are a bigger concern.
      • continuing harmful activity that is unnecessary for decent basic living is not excused by claiming that harmless ways to do the desired things ‘will be developed’. Maybe they won’t be developed. Maybe harmful replacements, only a little less climate change harmful or harmful in other ways, will be used. Note that stopping unnecessary harmful activity would limit the harm done ‘and’ motivate the development of harmless ways to meet those unnecessary desires.
      • it is harmful to maintain a misunderstanding that evades learning that fossil fuel use must be rapidly ended by the people who cause the most harm due to their harmfully over-developed ‘unnecessary’ fossil fuel use.
      • the real root of the problem is the development of desires for over-consumption including energy over-consumption.

      You say “Yet we have let 11 million (from lower per capita impact nations) in to our 15.52 per capita USA.” That is an argument against yourself. You have essentially stated that it is expected and OK for lower impact people to develop higher impact ways of living. Also, people moving to the USA would not be a problem if all of the USA, not just some portions of its population, were leading the awakening of the understanding of the need for a rapid transition away from the ideology that harmful ways of obtaining ‘desires’ are excusable.

      In conclusion, I believe it is important for SkS to continue to raise awareness (awaken people) regarding the climate science understanding that results in people learning to be less harmful, including voting for representatives who will be less harmful and more helpful leaders. That includes efforts on Twitter until it becomes clear that there is no longer a significant number of people remaining on Twitter who are interested in developing the common sense understanding of the need to rapidly end fossil fuel use and curtail other harmful ‘desired activity’.

2756. peppers at 10:25 AM on 3 January 2023
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      HI One Plant,

       

      I really appreciate discussing this w you. Much of this topic of population is to be based in common sense. The new input taking us from 1 to 8 billion now, it happened all across the world. America tripled, China tripled adding a billion. The starving areas represent about a billion, just under I hope, and once they get past finding food security, they too want to live as full a life as possible. So I think there is a narrowing as new tech makes more available, more will step up wanting it and being able to access it. Many examples of tech/competition working toward that. And as we get back on track to solve world hunger, there is another original billion, as the number we started with in 1900 again, ready to add thier consumerism, for a better life, for the same reasons we chose it as well.

      I think a larger solution needs considering, and atomic would fill that bill.

      The fossil fuel is why the co2 has increased, and mostly its manmade. But we cannot undo 8 billion, going to 10 they say.

      This is my opinion, and it is where all ideas begin, as opinions. I cannot censor others because I now want to call their opinion harmful misunderstandings. Thats the primary point I had. Its that you cannot say you are right and all others are wrong, because we cant do that. Its not aggresive or meant to down anywhere. But we have to keep thinking to work on anything, and freedom to think and express is very much desirable. If you say I am right and all else are harmful misunderstandings. Well.

      Mexico is a per capita rate of 3.58 for Co2, Venesuela 5.89. Yet we have let 11 million in to our 15.52 per capita USA. Political is against us. Natural thriving is against. This is only for me Forever, but an approach that can address this has me running in to all these factors, as I try and understand it to formula a solution.

      But this does not make me a harmful misunderstander.

      Thanks tons, D

2757. michael sweet at 09:48 AM on 3 January 2023
      Skeptical Science New Research for Week #52 2022
      

      Hairy BUtler,

      I read the Hansen et al preprint and Manns response.  THe Hansen paper is long and technical.  To evaluate the claims is beyond my pay grade, but I can summarize Hansen's claims.

      1) Hansen et al claim that studies of Paleoclimate (the climate in ages past) are the best way to estimate climate sensitivity.  The current estimate of the Charney equilibrium climate sensitivity (ECS) is 3C per doubling of carbon dioxide.  The ECS is the equilibtium temperature from rapidly changing thngs like atmospheric temperature and the ocean surface.  It has been 3C for a long time.  Recent papers have made new estimates of the last glacial maximum (LGM) global temperature that are about 3C lower than older estimates were.  This results in the ECS increasing to about 4 or 5C.  Mann cites the old papers to contradict Hansen.  If the ECS is really 4C instead of 3C than the expected warming is significantly greater.  Scientists often argue about whether or not new estimates are correct.  This can take years to resolve.

      2) Hansen has felt for decades that aerosol effects on climate have been underestimated.  Hansen claims that current Global Climate Models (GCM's) overestimate ocean mixing and underestimate aerosol cooling effects.  He provides new data to support this claim.  The net effect is to lower the calculated ECS.  As more and more energy comes from renewable sources the amount of aerosols in the atmosphere will decrease.  Since aerosols cool the Earth the net effect is greater warming than we have already experienced.

      3)  Hansen defines the Earth System Sensitivity (ESS) as the final temperature reached when slow responding functions like the melting of global ice caps reach final equilibrium.  This is significantly higher than the ECS, perhaps as high as 10C per doubling of carbon dioxide.  The generally accepted wisdon is that ESS will take thousands of years to reach equilibrium.  Hansen argues that It will be much faster.  Perhaps as much as 80% of final heating in a centuary.

      4) The net effect of higher ECS and ESS combined with higher aerosol effects means that there is a lot more heating in the pipeline (heating caused by carbon dioxide already in the atmosphere) than is currently believed to be the case.

      5) Since Hansen expects warming to be greater than the current consensus, much more heating is already in the pipeline and that it will happen much faster than currently expected, he argues that governments need to act much faster to contain this emergency as soon as possible.

      Hansen has made the argument for many years that aerosols are underestimated, ESS is higher than the current consensus and more warming is in the pipeline.  He has new data in this paper to support his claims.  This paper claims that the much more rapid increase in temperature he predicts will be obvious by 2050 and strong indications of his predictions will be measured in about 10 years.

      Mann basically says that he doesn't buy Hansens' argument.  Hopefully Gavin Schmidt at Real Climate will write a summary that will tell us the consensus view of what Hansen thinks is new data.  I expect Dr. Schmidt to agree with Dr. Mann.  I cannot evaluate Hansens claims, it is too technical.

      In my view, Hansen is a great scientist who has been correct several times before when he stuck his neck out.  He has also missed the mark on occasion.  It is worrysome to have someone so talented make such a grim argument.  This argument is not that different from his previous position but it has some new data to support his case.  I imagine that this paper will be discussed a fair amount online but that the IPCC consensus will not change until it is 2050 and his forecasts have proven correct.  Pray to whatever Gods you have that Hansen is incorrect. 

      If anyone else reads Hansen et al I am interested in your thoughts and/or additions on what I have posted here.

2758. Hareaza at 09:06 AM on 3 January 2023
      Veganism is the best way to reduce carbon emissions
      

      Even if anyone is adamant that climate change is not anthropogenically induced, it is just one vertex in a multi-pronged polygon, so to speak. Even if scientists were to say all over the world tomorrow: “we we were wrong! Carnivores had it right all of this time! Mea culpa! mea culpa!”, you’d be still tragically wrong overall. See, as humanity becomes more and more numerous, more and more land has to be cleared for grazing animals, because most people eat bluish animal carcasses—the bright red you see at the store is because the meat is infused with carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and nitrogen to make it look appealing, otherwise it turns darker, ‘deader’)—and this in turn brings a host of very negative consequences.

      How anyone can be incapable of understanding that producing 60 billion land animals for consumption is unsustainable is beyond me.

      But it is impossible for one’s mind to imagine this mind boggling quantity. So, I will help the reader visualize it. Imagine you have 1 billion dollars in the bank and suppose that every single second one dollar is spent. In order to spend your billion dollars, 32 years would have to pass. Now multiply this 60 times. That is what 60 billion means in numbers.

      These 60 billion land animals need water, land, and food to grow before they’re killed for human consumption. There’s already scarcity or lack of access to in each of these areas. More people equals more meat consumed equals more of:

      1. Zoonotic diseases
      2. Methane emission
      3. Ecosystem degradation
      4. Effluent caused poisoning
      5. Environmental inequality (poor countries give up their land to farm animals who end up on the dinner plate of wealthier countries instead of using it to feed their own citizens).
      6. Deforestation
      7. Mono-cropping
      8. Heat/cool & transport cost & emissions
      9. Food poison/pathogen
      10. Water scarcity
      11. Antibiotic resistance
      12. biodiversity loss

      And all of this is not just a matter of crucial public interest, this also includes the immorality of inflicting bloodcurdling pain to animals. The suffering they go through is unspeakable. It is a true, on-going, endless animal holocaust.

2759. Charlie_Brown at 03:20 AM on 3 January 2023
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      Searching for keywords in comments, I found that the Zhong & Haigh (2013) paper has been referenced several times in this thread, including in Jan 2019 @ 489, Sept 2019 @ 527, and others. I found excellent responses by MA Rodger and others to critiques about the paper by some who either didn’t understand the article or the physics, or just dismissed it with subjective superlatives. As I mentioned previously, it takes serious study to sort through the discussion. It helps to have a solid understanding of energy balances, fundamentals of radiant energy transfer, and basics of atmospheric physics.

      I also found several references to Univ of Chicago’s free, online version of MODTRAN Infrared Light in the Atmosphere. It is an excellent educational tool for self-study, and can be used to create the radiative forcing curves for CO2, as was done @609, and other GHGs (less rigorous than a line-by-line model using the HITRAN database, but still quite adequate for educational purposes). While learning about the greenhouse effect myself over the past few years, it was so helpful to me that I wanted to share it with my peer chemical engineers. To that end, I wrote an article for Chemical Engineering Progress, May 2022, “Introduction to an Atmospheric Radiation Model,” with Dr. David Archer (whose book is referenced in Zhong & Haigh) and Dr. Valerie Young as co-authors. It would be a good start for someone interested in learning-by-using the model. It offers background and step-by-step instructions for some example problems including the saturation effect. Unfortunately, Chemical Engineering Progress is not open access, but it might be found at the library or from a friend who is a member of the American Institute of Chemical Engineers.

2760. Daniel Bailey at 07:57 AM on 1 January 2023
      Skeptical Science New Research for Week #52 2022
      

      @HairyButler

      Michael Mann has tweeted against the conclusions in this paper (see these whole threads):

      https://twitter.com/MichaelEMann/status/1603437412272726017
      https://twitter.com/MichaelEMann/status/1603446912073764865

       

      Reading Hansen's piece, I was wondering why he never mentioned literally at least dozen papers (going back to before the AR5) plus the most recent assessment, the AR6 (I had a hard time believing that his entire author team also missed it, too).

      This illustrates the need for peer review by non-affiliated experts prior to making things public...and to rely upon primarily the major scientific assessments and the published, peer-reviewed science.

      This is the salient portion of the Lunt paper from 2010 that Mann references:

      "Our combined modelling and data approach results in a smaller response (ESS/CS∼1.4) than has recently been estimated using palaeo data from the Last Glacial Maximum, 21,000 years ago (ESS/CS∼2). This is probably due to the fact that transitions from glacial to interglacial conditions in the Quaternary involve large changes in the Laurentide and Eurasian ice sheets (see, for example, ref. 36), which result in a significant large-scale albedo feedback in these regions that is irrelevant for climates warmer than present. Furthermore, the main driver of Quaternary climate change is ultimately orbital forcing, which is close to zero in the global mean, and is therefore difficult to reconcile with a traditional climate sensitivity analysis."

      Note the expression of the ratio of ESS to CS (Earth System Sensitivity to Climate Sensitivity). If CS=3 C (per doubling), then therefore ESS would be about 4.2 C (and not 10).

2761. robinp1k2 at 02:21 AM on 1 January 2023
      2022 in review: Multi-lingual Cranky Uncle and other happenings at Skeptical Science
      

      Oops my congratulations emoji didn't print. I see "????". Anyway CONGRATS! :)

2762. robinp1k2 at 02:18 AM on 1 January 2023
      2022 in review: Multi-lingual Cranky Uncle and other happenings at Skeptical Science
      

      What an amazing year! Congratulations ???? Bärbel, thanks for pulling together links for the successes into this post. A great reference! Happy New Year!

2763. One Planet Only Forever at 12:29 PM on 31 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Reviewing all of the comments helped me develop the following response to peppers @86. I hope it is helpful.

      The following questions hopefully establish a common understanding regarding the harm done by the proliferation of misunderstandings on a public-service system like Twitter.

      Note: The harmful results of efforts to delay or diminish the awakening of understanding of harm being done, including the attempts to over-power or threaten people who try to help others learn to be less harmful, is not restricted to climate science.

      Important questions for everyone:

      1. Do you understand how Bayes’ theorem explains the way (perhaps the only way) that humans ‘minimize conflict of interests by developing and improving common sense understanding’? Ideological indoctrination will make people resist following Bayes’ theorem and fail to develop common sense understanding. Problematic beliefs include:

      • cheaper and easier (or more profitable, or more desired) justifies/excuses harm done
      • richer and more powerful people are excused for being more harmful because they can afford to, and are able to, be more harmful
      • harm done (to Others) can be excused if benefits are obtained (by the In Group).

      Ideological beliefs can reduce conflicts within a group (or nation or group of nations). But the resulting group will increase their conflict with Others. Limiting the harm of global conflict requires everyone, or at least all leaders, to apply Bayes’ theorem in pursuit of improved awareness and understanding of what is harmful and how to be less harmful and more helpful to Others (that is the origin of important learning and presentations of understanding like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the IPCC, and the Sustainable Development Goals).

      2. Do you accept that all of the Climate Myths presented under the Arguments tab are misunderstandings that everyone can learn to better understand? If not, revisit the Arguments after understanding the next question.

      3. Do you accept that it is harmful to believe and propagate misunderstandings that would delay learning about the importance of rapidly ending fossil fuel use? Wouldn’t it be easier for everyone to learn to be less harmful and more helpful if there was less repetition of harmful misunderstandings, less temptation to excuse harmful actions? Wouldn’t it be better if there was a public gallery of misunderstandings with comprehensive, open to improvement, explanations everyone could learn from (like the SkS Arguments list)? Wouldn’t it be great if every posting that included a repetition of a misunderstanding directed viewers to the appropriate, already established, educational rebuttal?

      4. Do you accept that a high level Ethical/Moral Rule is “Be less harmful (when possible)”? I admit that being harmless is not possible. To live you have to harm other life. But sustainable living is possible. It requires distinguishing ‘Needs essential to living’ from ‘All other desires’. The harm done by meeting essential needs can only be limited to ‘pursuing the least harmful ways to ensure those essential needs are met – By/For Everyone’. Desires, however, are not necessary. Desires should be screened/governed/limited so that the only desires acted on would be sustainable (without accumulating harm) if everybody did the desired action to the same degree (relates to the problem of developing people being tempted to want to live like the harmfully over-developed who are perceived to be superior).

      That brings us to the population question raised by peppers. More people on the planet does result in more restrictions on ‘desired actions’. It also makes the provision of everyone’s essential needs more harmful. An understood solution is pursuing, and improving on, the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). Learning about the SDGs leads to understanding that pursuit of the goals would reduce the harmfulness of the developed and developing populations. And a recent research report in the Lancet “Fertility, mortality, migration, and population scenarios for 195 countries and territories from 2017 to 2100: a forecasting analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study” indicates that achieving the SDGs would also be expected to reduce the peak global population, primarily due to the birth-rate reductions expected to occur in societies with ‘more educated and freer women’.

      Also, the more harmful the climate change impacts are the harder it is to achieve the SDGs. Exceeding 1.0 C of impact has been identified as entering the realm of significant risk of harm. Refer to my comment regarding the Story of the Week “1.5 and 2°C: A Journey Through the Temperature Target That Haunts the World” in the “2022 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #50”

      With the above established, responses to specific statements made by Peppers @86 are as follows:

      Responding to the population question point that “The causation is fossil fuels, the proliferation of them. But if it is the explosion of bodies from 1 to 8B, exactly matching the rise of Co2, is ID'd as the cause, then our solution would be re-thought as well.”

      nigelj’s response @88 is great. But there is more.

      The problem is admitted to be fossil fuels. But there is no admission of the need to ‘end the harm of fossil fuel use’. Not mentioning the harmful unsustainability of the ways of living developed by the ‘supposedly more superior people that Others aspire to be like’ indicates a lack of understanding of the basics of the issue (refer to the questions above).

      Also, saying “An important part of my 8 billion comment goes past the division of consumption calcs, which I understood too...”, indicates more may be going on than a lack of understanding. Claiming that the comment regarding population “looks past” the fact that a small portion of the population has massive harmful impact is questionable. It is looking through, or looking around, or looking away from the understanding that more harmful people have to make more, and more rapid, corrections of how they live and that developing people should be helped to develop more sustainable lives with the least harmful transition through the fossil fuel use phase of development (waiting for technological developments that will be cheaper and more popular to end the harm done will fail without increased awareness and effective governing to limit misunderstanding and related harm done. Technological solutions, like nuclear, could be unsustainable and harmful like the problem they were believed to solve).

      The problem is made worse by people perceiving the more harmful people to be superior. That misunderstanding could cause people to want to develop to be ‘part of that group and live like they do’. Developing a sustainable solution requires all of the ‘perceived to be superior people (not just the ones who care to learn to be less harmful and more helpful to Others)’ leading the rapid transition/correction past (away from) fossil fuel use.

      Responding to the “One Planet, If you can decide your are so correct in defining that more input is deemed impossible to add anything, then you could move forward with the censoring and re-education plan. The world has seen that before however, and they are still reflecting, what were we thinking?”

      Common sense understanding of the pursuit of improved awareness and understanding of what is harmful and how to be less harmful and more helpful to Others is not ‘my decision or definition’. It is common sense ethics/morality.

      Claiming that limiting the influence of the proliferation of misunderstanding is ‘censorship’ is a misunderstanding.
      Using the term re-education rather than saying ‘learning to be less harmful and more helpful to Others’ is a misrepresentation because re-education has negative connotations that do not apply to learning to be less harmful and more helpful.

      What the world ‘has seen before’ is the result of harmful misunderstandings becoming popular and powerful. That results in ideological indoctrination of populations (with nationalism and other selfish interests). And that causes the resulting population to powerfully and harmfully conflict with Others. They collectively resist learning to be less harmful and more helpful to Others. People should reflect on ‘Seeing what happened’ (continues to happen) within many political groups in many nations. Many groups become increasingly resistant to learning about ‘the harmful results’ of fossil fuel use. People should also reflect on and how other harmful beliefs are embraced by those groups as they ‘wrap themselves in flags’ and pursue the ability to have more influence to be more harmful.

2764. David-acct at 11:05 AM on 31 December 2022
      How to save on winter home heating costs
      

      Liberator - actually less complicated micro economics.  In each of the cases/examples you mentioned, the tax credit  and/or subsidy artificially shifts the demand curve upward.  ie the consumer is willing to pay a higher price for the product due the tax credit or subsidy.  The real result, is the seller obtains the benefit of the higher sales price.  

2765. libertador at 00:06 AM on 31 December 2022
      How to save on winter home heating costs
      

      @David-acct

      What has to be taken in to account in this case, is that a tax credit is only given to some available options, e.g (partly) US-made batteries. Therefore, it is more complicated than the text book example. For example in case of batteries, this should lead to a growth in US-battery manufacturing. It might be more seen as industrial politics, than making it a cheaper for customers. It could furthermore make the switch to EVs quicker, because they get the profitable option in more cases, compared to gas-drive cars, leading to more supply.

2766. BaerbelW at 15:21 PM on 30 December 2022
      Skeptical Science New Research for Week #52 2022
      

      HairyButler @1

      The paper is a preprint uploaded to Arxiv and hasn't yet been peer-reviewed. Which is why it for example doesn't get picked up for this New Research compilation. You could call it a "work in progress". Arxiv is not a scientific journal but "just" an open access repository where scientists can upload papers.

      It shows the status at the top: [Submitted on 8 Dec 2022 (v1), last revised 12 Dec 2022 (this version, v2)]

2767. HairyButler at 10:51 AM on 30 December 2022
      Skeptical Science New Research for Week #52 2022
      

      I came across a new Hansen et al study on ECS which I haven't seen referenced here. I haven't seen any news reports on it either. That's odd, because their estimate for ECS is "at least ~4°C for doubled CO2 (2xCO2), with likely range 3.5-5.5°C". That's a fair bit higher than the long-standing consensus of 3ishC, so it seems newsworthy but maybe I'm missing something. https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.04474

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Link activated.
      
      The web software here does not automatically create links. You can do this when posting a comment by selecting the "insert" tab, selecting the text you want to use for the link, and clicking on the icon that looks like a chain link. Add the URL in the dialog box.

2768. John ONeill at 10:41 AM on 30 December 2022
      Tropical thermostat limits sea surface temperature to 30°C
      

      31 C is the minimum threshold temperature for supercritical carbon dioxide. This means that if nuclear power plants using s-CO2 as coolant, instead of water/steam, could rely on seawater cooling below this temperature, they could use simplified liquid CO2 pumping in the recuperator, instead of having s-CO2 compressors. This would lower both the cost of the plant, and the amount of waste heat needing to be removed per kilowatt/hour of power produced.

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] The only link to the original post seems to be the temperature of 31C and the mention of seawater. The blog post has nothing to do with nuclear power plants. As such, this comments seems quite off-topic.

2769. peppers at 10:07 AM on 30 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      NIgelj, I have the very same conclusions for the 8B. It cannot be addressed, if it is relevant. I think there are ideas in the 'if' range of that observation. Nuclear would leap past its impact and most other worries. But its also so political. Thx D

2770. nigelj at 06:52 AM on 30 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Peppers @86, regarding the population issue. Yes you are right that population growth means more consumers and more fossil fuel use, all other things being equal. And this will presumably apply in places like Africa. But its hardly a big revelation.

      The problem is theres not a lot we can practically do to make huge and short term changes to the rate of population growth. You cant line people up and shoot them and one child policies have huge problems, and you of all people would presumably oppose government having very activist or coercive population policies. Even if the global fertility rate did fall to literally zero tomorrow (which it obviously won't) this wouldn't stop warming getting above 2 degrees because we are left with 8 billion people and it would take several decades before enough died off to even begin to make a difference to warming trajectories. 

      Its expected that human population will peak at about 10 billion people towards the end of this century and then population will gradually fall slowly after that in absolute size and thats probably what will happen. This is based on the most likely fertility rates going forwards which are about 2.2 children family size. I doubt we can chnage that projection. Im going by memory a bit. Refer projections of population growth on wikipedia for the details.

      The point is we are not going to be able to fix the global warming problem with population policies. The best that they would to is soften the problem slightly over the long term, so we are very reliant on renewable energy, electric transport and negative emissions technology. This was apparent to me years ago, and it seems self evident and did not require much thought.

2771. Charlie_Brown at 06:23 AM on 30 December 2022
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      BothoStr and everyone following this thread,

      Thanks to MA Rodger for providing the link to Zhong & Haig. I was not aware of this reference, but I suspect it has been made somewhere in this thread. I highly recommend it for everyone to read or re-read. It is an excellent high-level discussion of this topic. It is 6 pages of dense reading, but is a much better source for learning about the effect of CO2 than wading through hundreds of comments.

      MA Rodger
      I completely agree with your comments on the logarithmic relationships.

      For the power of CH4, I was referring to its Global Warm Potential which is often cited (at least in the U.S.) as being about 28-30. It is defined as the cumulative warming effect over 100 years for one ton of CH4 emission compared to one ton of CO2 emission at current concentrations of 1.9 ppm CH4 and 415 ppm CO2. On a molecular basis, there is a factor of 2.75 difference in like-for-like just due to the molecular weight. The rest of the GWP is due to the starting point of current concentrations, which puts CO2 on a shallower part of the forcing curve shown in Fig 6a. CH4 has a similar forcing curve, but to your point, the values are lower for CH4 than for the same concentrations of CO2.

2772. peppers at 21:24 PM on 29 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      I apologies all over myself for the poor spelling in 86. The button was hit before a re-read. Normally my socks go on before the shoes. Uuggh.

2773. peppers at 21:19 PM on 29 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      One Planet, thanks for quoting me.

      An important part of my 8 billion comment goes past the division of consumption calcs, which I understood too; the case load on affecting Co2 is more in the developed nations. But all these new people are not static. They all want how others live as well, once they get past that days meals. 91% of the world having a smartphone just indicates, everyone wants one. And everyone wants to live as involved a life as they can achieve the lifestyle of. The causation is fossil fuels, the proliferation of them. But if it is the explosion of bodies from 1 to 8B, exactly matching the rise of Co2, is ID'd as the cause, then our solution would be re-thought as well. Corobaration of this would involve; has there been a rise in fossil burning vehicles and equipment, the movement of the secondary market of prior technology in to 3rd world areas, etc. As technology progresses to solve these emitters, as anything becomes cheaper and more prevalent, it will also increase in quantity of use as there is a horde of new people waiting to rise in comsumptive activity.  This cannot be a toss away factor. I am interested in this  800% population increase factor.

      Free speech is a nessesity in seeking truth. It may be inconvienient, but I would not want to be wrong because I wouldnt listen anymore.

      NIgelj, your Regarding Hate Speech in 83 nails it. It is deciding definitions that is the core of the concepts problem.

      One Planet, If you can decide your are so correct in defining that more input is deemed impossible to add anything, then you could move forward with the censoring and re-education plan. The world has seen that before however, and they are still reflecting, what were we thinking? There is no solice in numbers. Its an understandable impatience but a wrong conclusion (for me). 

      You have good input about my mention of sueing people who make false statements about someone/something. If categorized as regulating, I would not want more regs to even more regulate an area. Do we need more legal, etc.? To combat disinformation, maybe an action in to journalism, which starkly divides news from editorial. The news area would have to be heavily proved (or not stated there then) and all else can exist in editorial. Disinformation would be harder or not possible to pass as fact then?

      Thx all, D

2774. MA Rodger at 20:48 PM on 29 December 2022
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      Charlie_Brown @676,
      The logarithmic relationship between CO2 and climate forcing is an empirical one and somewhere there is set out a ruling that it can be used for CO2 levels between (if I remember correctly) 150ppm up to 1,300ppm.

      A good reference for the CO2-Forcing relationship is Zhong & Haig (2013) which shows the wavelengths of the CO2 forcing up to 12,000ppm and in their Fig6b the total forcing up to levels above 100,000ppm. Note that a logarithmic relationship would appear as a straight line in Fig6b, and the CO2 forcing does climb above that 'straightness' for concentrations above 1,300ppm.

      You also mention CH4. At today's concentrations, the total forcing (from zero CH4) is something like 1Wm^-2. Note on that Fig6b, the forcing for CO2 with a similar concentration (I think it is 1,500ppb) is shown at something like 5.5Wm^-2. Like-for-like, CO2 is by far the more powerful GHG.

2775. Bob Loblaw at 12:24 PM on 29 December 2022
      From the eMail Bag: the Beer-Lambert Law and CO2 Concentrations
      

      Charlie Brown's comment about using the Beer Lambert Law "looking down" is an interesting point worth following up on.

      Absorption is a probability thing. When we say that a layer absorbs 1% of the radiation emitted from the surface, we are talking about the average of a huge number of photons. For a single photon, the proper interpretation is that the photon has a 1% chance of being absorbed in that layer, and a 99% chance of being transmitted.

      For the view looking down from the top of layer 200 in Figure 5, reverse the X-axis  so that 200 is on the left and 0 is on the right, and we can re-interpret the graph as "what is the probability that we will see a photon that originated in layer 200? 150? 100? etc. Photons that start in layer 199 have a really high probability of reaching layer 200 and being transmitted through it. Layer 190? Better than 50% for the two absorption coefficients used in the graph. Layer 180? Chances are only 10-35% for the two coefficients.

      So, the IR radiation emitted by CO2 and lost to space more likely comes from the upper atmosphere.

       

      Any "argument" that claims the CO2 effect is "saturated", etc., because surface-emitted radiation won't directly reach space needs to explain why they think the rest of the atmosphere is not emitting IR radiation from CO2.

2776. Charlie_Brown at 11:51 AM on 29 December 2022
      From the eMail Bag: the Beer-Lambert Law and CO2 Concentrations
      

      Why, you might ask, did I say "it is much better to interpret the Beer-Lambert Law by looking down"?  Because it determines whether there are enough molecules in the path length to create a layer that emits toward space with an emittance close to 1.0. And it avoids the confusing discussion of absorption and re-emittance, which is unnecessary to understand radiant energy loss to space.
      For example, in the wavelength range of about 14-16 microns, Beer’s Law determines that there are enough CO2 molecules in the very long path length of the tropopause (altitude 10-20 km) to bring most absorption lines in this band to 1.0, even with a low concentration of 400 ppm and even with the low pressure of the tropopause. CO2 creates an effective emitting layer in this wavelength range. Because the tropopause is cold at 217K, this layer emits less energy compared to that emitted in this range from the surface at 288K. In the ranges of 8-9 and 11-13 microns, there are no gas molecules that absorb radiant energy, so the energy emitted from the surface (288K) reaches space. Without CO2 reducing energy escape to space, the earth would be cooler while maintaining the energy balance with solar insolation. With increasing CO2, more weak absorption lines in the ranges of about 13.5-14 and 16-16.5 microns increase toward a value of 1.0 and the absorption band becomes wider, requiring a higher surface temperature to maintain the overall global energy balance.
      Regarding water vapor, there are not enough molecules in the cold tropopause to create an emitting layer. The emitting layer for water vapor in the troposphere is warmer.

2777. Charlie_Brown at 07:23 AM on 29 December 2022
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      BothoStr

      I commend you for wading through the discussion from @587 onwards. I trust that you also reviewed the basic, intermediate, and advanced rebuttals, which are excellent. The comments contain a lot of great information along with some misinterpretation, misinformation, just plain wrong thinking, and quite a bit of misunderstanding about word choices. Being new, it takes serious study and critical thinking to sort it out, although it can become rather simple after some tough concepts are understood. I would be interested in which argument was most convincing to you. In addition to this discussion of “Is the CO2 Effect Saturated”, there is a closely related thread “The Beer Lambert Law and CO2 Concentration” that has more information.

      To your point, reasonable sounding claims often begin with a kernel of truth that are misinterpreted and become distorted. Despite all of the technical explanation and arguments, it seems that almost everyone accepts that the effect of increasing CO2 tends to be logarithmic rather than linear. This means that each additional 100 ppm in CO2 has less effect than the prior increments (e.g., 100 to 200 to 300 to 400 ppm, etc.). It also means that each doubling of concentration (e.g., 100 to 200 to 400 to 800 ppm, etc.) has the same effect. The subjective debate is about whether CO2 is on the steep part of a linear curve or on a plateau. After plotting it, I conclude that it is in the middle. The effect may be diminishing or saturating, but it is not saturated.

      This leads to another interesting observation. Where is methane, currently at 1.9 ppm, on its curve of effect? The answer is that it is on the steep part, and therein lies a reason for its strong power as a GHG.

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Link added to the text to point to the thread "The Beer Lambert Law and CO2 Concentration".

2778. nigelj at 06:25 AM on 29 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      OPOF @84

      We actually tried the three strikes law in New Zealand for about 10 years  and I initially supported the idea ( but with some reservations). But after ten years there was no evidence that it caused crime to go down or discouraged offending, and it lead to absurdly disproportionate punishments. Judges complained. The law was abandoned recently. 

      Now the right leaning National Party wants to bring it back if elected, and in pretty much the same form, despite the fact there is no evidence that it achieved anything and despite the fact that the  reasons it failed have become apparent. Its the problem Bob mentioned about not being able to identify horse pucky. People need to remember the famous quote by Einstein: "Dont keep on doing the same thing and expect different results" 

2779. One Planet Only Forever at 05:12 AM on 29 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Nigelj,

      I agree that legal penalties for spreading/repeating misunderstandings that could produce harmful results are not the best way to try to limit the harm done by the creation, promotion and sharing of misunderstanding. A better action is the preemptive education of everyone (like the inoculation approach promoted by SkS) to awaken everyone to the constantly improving understanding of what is harmful and how to be less harmful and more helpful ‘to Others’. The key part is the ‘to Others’ part.

      It is essential to clarify that ‘Others, using reasoning and evidence, determine a common understanding of what is harmful’. The person believing and doing something based on their belief does not get to claim they are correct or not very harmful. Everyone’s actions add up. People aiding and abetting share the blame. Harmful actions like the actions encouraged by Alex Jones cannot be excused by Alex Jones claiming he did not believe what he was doing was going to produce harmful results, or claiming that restricting his ability to promote the misunderstandings that he repeatedly shared would be ‘harmful to people like him by limiting their freedom of expression of beliefs’.

      Educating everyone to be more aware of harmful misunderstanding is also better than legal actions like suing, because legal consequences are ‘after the fact of harm done’. Legal systems have been built with systemic flaws that protect the interests of influential wealthy people. The example of what the GOP leadership has chosen to become (see my comment @78), and note that wealthy influential people also try to dominate the actions of the Democrat Party in the US, exposes that some among the ‘leadership class’, which includes all wealthy and influential people, appear to choose to develop interests that would motivate them to try to influence leadership and the legal system to protect their interests. It is very easy to severely penalize poorer and less influential people in the US (and many other nations), like the 3-strike nonsense in some US states where a person would be imprisoned 25 years for 3 cases like stealing a slice of pizza or being searched by police who discover a small amount of marijuana. And it is every difficult to prove the guilt of a wealthy influential person like Alex Jones and effectively penalize them.

      My understanding is that Alex Jones had to be proven to have understood that he was sharing misunderstandings about the school shooting and its victims. And Alex Jones had to be proven to have motivated the harmful actions of people who aggressively threatened innocent people as a result of being influenced by the misunderstandings powerfully promoted by the very influential Alex Jones. And, in spite of being found guilty (not certain to have been the result of the legal action) Alex Jones may evade significant jail time (he certainly is not going to jail for 25 years) and he may be able to keep a substantial amount of his wealth.

      That said, legal actions should be aggressively used as a last resort to limit the harmful influence of wealthy influential people. The ‘Leaders’, including all wealthy and influential people, are potentially the most helpful or most harmful members of the population. It is essential that that group be held responsible for/by peer-review that effectively limits the harmful influence of any members of the ‘Leadership class’.

      Note that, though Alex Jones is facing some consequence for his promotion of misunderstanding, there appears to have been no consequences for the “Merchants of Doubt” (direct reference to the excellent 2010 research report by Naomi Oreskes and ‎Erik M. Conway) for their far more harmful promotion of misunderstanding regarding climate science.

2780. Rob Honeycutt at 03:31 AM on 29 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Moved the conversation to a more relevant thread here.

2781. Rob Honeycutt at 03:30 AM on 29 December 2022
      Renewables can't provide baseload power
      

      [moved conversation from different thread]

      Doug... Note when you read the the LCOE reports they use the term "resource-constrained." All sources are intermittent. Wind and solars are merely not "dispatchable" in the same manner.

      Once again, use of the term "intermittent" is a canard because it doesn't fully describe the situation.

      I've read estimates are that renewables (wind, water, solar, geothermal) in conjunction with about 10% penetration of storage could supply all energy needs. You don't need 50% penetration for storage with integrated grids due to the fact other renewable resources are dispatachable (water, geothermal).

      You say, "...cutting the storage cost of $124.84/Mwhr in half is not enough" but I would suggest that is a baseless assertion when already peaker plants functionally perform the same task and are a critical part of the energy mix at virtually the same levelized cost factor.

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] The "different thread" is located here, if readers need more of the context..

2782. Rob Honeycutt at 02:53 AM on 29 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Doug... Note when you read the the LCOE reports they use the term "resource-constrained." All sources are intermittent. Wind and solars are merely not "dispatchable" in the same manner. 

      Once again, use of the term "intermittent" is a canard because it doesn't fully describe the situation.

      I've read estimates are that renewables (wind, water, solar, geothermal) in conjunction with about 10% penetration of storage could supply all energy needs. You don't need 50% penetration for storage with integrated grids due to the fact other renewable resources are dispatachable (water, geothermal). 

      You say, "...cutting the storage cost of $124.84/Mwhr in half is not enough" but I would suggest that is a baseless assertion when already peaker plants functionally perform the same task and are a critical part of the energy mix at virtually the same levelized cost factor.

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Rob has duplicated this comment on the other thread he mentions in the next comment. Please make any follow-up comments on the other thread.

       

2783. Doug Cannon at 00:54 AM on 29 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Rob @ 377

      Intermittency of renewables is not a "canard" (unfounded rumor or story), it's an absolute fact that has to be dealt with.

      re "we are not replacing existing FF facilities until the end of their useful life. Once a facility is built it will continue operation until retirement"

      I totally agree. And that's all we can do until the intermittancy issue is solved. But cutting the storage cost of $124.84/Mwhr in half is not enough.

      I think another strategy worth considering is to forget the battery storage approach for now. Find the optimum mix of renewables that results in an effective capacity factor of 50% (wind and solar downtimes don't totally overlap). Then build renewables up to half our electricity and use FF for the other half. It will take decades to get to that point. By then the storage cost issue may be resolved.

      You're right though. This this is probably an issue for another thread.

2784. BothoStr at 21:46 PM on 28 December 2022
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      I've just seen a discussion of this from post 587 onwards...

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Here is a direct link to comment 587 in this thread.

2785. BothoStr at 21:08 PM on 28 December 2022
      CO2 effect is saturated
      

      Great post and discussion! Thank you

       

      I'm rather new to this and have been struggling with finding a sound rebuttal to the reasonable sounding claims in this paper. As far as I understand it there is a weak saturation-claim to be found here:

      Link to van Wijngaarden and Happer paper

      thanks!

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Glad that you found the relevant discussion in the comments.

      Created a link to the paper. The web software here does not automatically create links. You can do this when posting a comment by selecting the "insert" tab, selecting the text you want to use for the link, and clicking on the icon that looks like a chain link. Add the URL in the dialog box.

       

2786. nigelj at 16:01 PM on 28 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Regarding twitter. I think OPOF is right about twitter. If it was to devolve into a cess pool of mostly obnoxious people spreading hate or misinformation you would probably not want to be part of that. Even if you used twitter just to connect with sensible people, it may be a bad look to be part of the twitter system. 

      Regarding free speech and suing people. If people had the ability to sue other people in civil court just because they didnt like what someone said, or they felt it was misinformation or hateful speech, I fear this would have a destructive effect on discussion, because plenty of people  would no longer participate in discussions out of fear of being sued. So such a proposition would be anti free speech.

      I understand that Alex Jones was convicted for making false claims about a  school schooting, but that was under a fairly narrowly focused existing law and that seems entirely appropriate to me. Hopefully it gets through to the totally obnoxious man that his conspiracy theory  had no basis in fact and that he should reconsider his views. However sadly some people become stubbornly attached to their views and unable to move on. 

      Regarding hate speech. The New Zealand did consider hate speech law. The problem was the governmnet defining "hate" and defining which things should be included and gender, race, religion and disabled people were considered. There was a lot of public pushback that for example you would no longer be able to criticise religion or discuss gender issues even if done politely.  So while I intensely dislike bigotry and so forth  I lean towards free speech with just a few minimal and focused restrictions. Yes if you had strong censorship smart people can find a way of discussing whatever they want through careful language but I believe most people would just give up participating out of fear and this is to everyones detriment.

      We have to be able to discuss things, fairly easily and openly and without fearing that just about anything we say could get us sued, convicted, fined or thrown off websites or comments deleted,  so restrictions need to be fairly minimal.

       

       

2787. One Planet Only Forever at 14:17 PM on 28 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Reviewing the comment string, I hope it will be helpful to present examples, specifically regarding questions about total global population and bike riding, that clarify that presenting reasons and evidence that something is a misunderstanding and explaining how the misunderstandings can produce harmful results is not ‘labelling something a harmful misunderstanding’ (I also hope to adequately relate this comment to the question of the value of SkS activity on Twitter).

      My comment @38 presents the reasons for the complete set of Climate Myths that are addressed by SkS under the ‘Arguments’ tab to be understood to be harmful misunderstandings that are more harmful the more they get repeated. And it includes the point that each person may consider their impacts to be small, but many harmful problems are due to everyone’s small harmful impacts adding up. And, in addition to a person’s actions contributing to harmful global warming and resulting climate change impacts, each person’s persistence in believing and sharing misunderstandings regarding climate science harmfully add up.

      That totalling up of impacts relates to the question about increasing global population raised in peppers comment @45. An increased awareness and improved understanding regarding the ‘population problem’ is presented in my comment @4 on the SkS item “New reports spell out climate urgency, shortfalls, needed actions”. The quote in that comment is repeated below:

      The "Emissions Gap Report 2022: The Closing Window – Climate Crisis Calls for Rapid Transformation of Societies by Juliane Berger et al." starts and ends part 2.3.2 "Consumption-based emissions are highly unequal between and within countries" with the following quotes (Bold is my emphasis):

      "When national fossil CO2 emissions are estimated on a consumption-basis (i.e. where the supply-chain emissions are allocated to consumers) rather than on the territorial-basis considered so far, emissions tend to be higher in high-income countries such as the United States of America and European Union (by 6 per cent and 14 per cent respectively; Friedlingstein et al. [2020]). Conversely, they are lower in countries such as India and China (by 9 per cent and 10 per cent respectively), which are net exporters of goods ..."

      "Consumption-based emissions also diverge starkly at a household level, in large part due to income and wealth disparities between and within countries (Capstick, Khosla and Wang 2020). When the emissions associated with both household consumption and public and private investments are allocated to households (see appendix A), and households are ranked by GHG emissions (excluding LULUCF), the bottom 50 per cent emit on average 1.6 tCO2e/capita and contribute 12 per cent of the global total, whereas the top 1 per cent emit on average 110 tCO2e/capita and contribute 17 per cent of the total (Chancel 2022; Chancel et al. 2022). Super-emitters in the top 0.1 per cent (average 467 tCO2e/capita) and the top 0.01 per cent (2,531 tCO2e/capita) have seen the fastest growth in personal carbon footprints since 1990. High-emitting households are present across all major economies, and large inequalities now exist both within and between countries (figure 2.3) (Chancel et al. 2022)."

      An improved understanding of the population growth question is that the problem is the excessive harmful impacts of the highest impacting portion of the population, not the small amount of electricity used by poor people to recharge cell phones. A related problem is the incorrect development by poor people of a desire for a personal automobile or other harmful consumption examples set by the most harmful portion of the population.

      Public transport or bike riding are less harmful ways to ‘travel’. And that leads to the example of peppers comment @40. Quoting peppers: “Im reminded of being in line at the beach for something and overhearing a bicyclist loudly lamenting and lambasting all these strollers and roller bladers and runners mucking up the brand new bike path the City just put in. Another bystander, a City worker, heard enough and promptly corrected the speaker that the mission statement for the path included walking, running, skate boarders, strollers and more, as well as bikes.”

      The ‘bike path case’ is an example of misunderstandings producing potentially harmful results. The public arguing due to misunderstanding could have become more than just words (harmful bike path rage – like harmful road rage). It is also an example of how the risk of harm can be reduced by information and education effort that correct and limit misunderstanding. The city could have learned from other municipalities about the importance of public awareness campaigns and posted signs to make sure that users of the new path understood its intended, and therefore properly understood, use. The city worker would have been able to point to the signs to help correct the misunderstanding.

      However, in the absence of signage regarding the proper use of the new path the path being referred to as a ‘new bike path’ raises the possibility that it was not to be used by strollers and walkers. Many cities are building new pathways and lanes for safer quicker commuting by bike or scooter. Walkers and strollers are not to be on these paths – for everyone’s safety. The point is that the city employee or the bike rider may have been correct. And the important thing is to have everyone, especially leadership, apply Bayes’ theorem to learn to minimize the harm that can be caused by misunderstandings.

      If Twitter becomes increasingly populated by people who resist learning, people who resist having to change their mind by evading being awakened by increased awareness and improve understanding of what is harmful misunderstanding, then there clearly would be less point or value in SkS putting effort into Twitter.

2788. Eric (skeptic) at 13:01 PM on 28 December 2022
      What on Earth is a polar vortex? And what’s global warming got to do with it?
      

      David-acct, thanks for that chart.  I didn't know EIA published that.  Here's the one I use for Germany: energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE. The EIA says in June 2022, the United States had 137.6 GW of wind capacity.  With a 35% capacity factor (obviously more in winter, less in summer), that would be 48 GW on a perfectly average day.

      In the chart you linked, the production goes from 22 GW on 12/20 to a peak of 80 GW on 12/22 as low pressure started intensifying in the midwest.   The next 2 days wind production fluctuated between 36 to 46 GW with a brief dip to 33.  That's below average but not way below average.

      I believe it's likely you are correct in certain cases (e.g. the drop in wind for about a day in Feb 2021 in Texas), the drops and the rise to 80 GW during the intensification of the storm, will depend on weather patterns which vary.  I think Arctic outbreaks will vary, and total wind production for the US will vary including in unaffected regions like California.

2789. David-acct at 12:29 PM on 28 December 2022
      What on Earth is a polar vortex? And what’s global warming got to do with it?
      

      www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/expanded-view/electric_overview/US48/US48/GenerationByEnergySource-4/edit

       

      Sorry misposted the link

      moderator - feel free to delete the bad link to the EIA in my post above.

      Moderator Response:

      [BL] Done

2790. David-acct at 12:28 PM on 28 December 2022
      What on Earth is a polar vortex? And what’s global warming got to do with it?
      

      interesting aspect of these polar vortex, 

      Typically for 2-4 days after the polar vortex hits, the wind drops significantly for those 2-4 days,  Those days are also very cold.

       

      I have attached links to the real time US Energy information association  and the the germany real time electric generation by source.  those real time data sources provide great information.  

      Also noted is the TVA went through some minor rolling blackouts during a relatively mild polar vortex.  www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/power_generation/28.10.2022/28.12.2022/today/

       

      https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/expanded-view/electric_overview/US48/US48/GenerationByEnergySource-4/edit

       

       

2791. David-acct at 12:14 PM on 28 December 2022
      How to save on winter home heating costs
      

      The article above highlights the advantages of tax subsidies for the purchase of energy efficient appliances, ev's etc.  One of the most misunderstood facts regarding is that the real economic benefit goes to the seller of the product - contrary to popular perception.  

       

      Those tax subsidies artificially shift the demand curve, resulting in a higher sales price than the market drive point where the supply and demand curves naturally meet.  The net price (gross sales price less the tax credit or subsidy)  of the product reflects the natural equilibrium price without the tax subsidy.  ( Slight caveat - depending on the elasticity of the product, the seller receives around 60-90% of the benefit).

       

      any micro economics textbook will have good explanation of the effect of tax credits and subsidies on the supply and demand curves

2792. peppers at 12:02 PM on 28 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Rob, I mixed you w Bob again! So sorry. Thats two!

      NIgelj,

      If they open some ability for all to sue if false statements, liable or defamation is there, then the market will take care of this. That would be better than even more regs.

      This site and folks do fine, and this is a hard place to manage. I have spoken of tolerance but Im not sure how I would hold up here, every time I mean.

      I watch old Johnny Carson reruns and they were not allowed to say the name of a competing network if they needed to ID a show elsewhere. I am sure I will also evolve and there are more than several levels of censorship, some I agree with. Such as business competition. But not in other locates.

      Best again, D

2793. Rob Honeycutt at 10:34 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Doug @376... This is starting to veer onto a new topic that might be better for a different thread, but what you're doing is promoting the canard about intermittency of wind and solar. 

      The fact is, we are not replacing existing FF facilities until the end of their useful life. Once a facility is built it will continue operation until retirement. New facilities are built to address increased energy needs and to replace retiring facilities. Because of the LCOE most new installed facilities are now wind and solar. 

      As the cost of grid level storage falls below the cost of peaker plants, those facilties will are become economically unviable to build. Existing peaker plants will continue to operate until their useful life expires and grid storage will replace them.

      You say, "Remember to account for the battery storage when needed" but that is part of the canard about intermittency. Each of these are independent elements of the grid system. Each supply power when available (yes, even FF sources often unexpectedly go down as well). 

      With the falling cost of grid level storage what many new wind and solar facilities are looking at is co-location as opposed to grid level arbitrage. That storage cost could like fall to half of the current price in the coming decade, and once that happens there is no way for any mix of FF to compete in the market. It would just be a matter of allowing existing FF facilities to live out their useful lives to then be replaced with renewable sources.

2794. Doug Cannon at 09:57 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Rob #373, 374.

      I apparently wasn't clear in my second paragraph. I'm referring to our current practice where there is always enough fossil or nuclear power available when solar or wind isn't available. This comes at no extra investment; it's sunk cost.

      That scenario is the absolute best economic case for the use of renewables based on today's cost. We're eliminating the CO2 emmissions that would otherwise come from the replaced gas and it's costing us $7.61/Mwhr.

      Try some other scenarios. I don't think you'll find any more favorable situation. Remember to account for the battery storage when needed.

2795. Eclectic at 09:47 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Not sure how it would enter the overall dollar calculation, but there may well be circumstances where there is value in a generation system that can give close-to-zero marginal cost (short or longer term).  That would apply especially to solar installations, but slightly less so for wind.

      There is that ~ and the difficulty of long-term LCOE estimations of "renewables" which are rapidly changing in technology & build costs.

2796. Rob Honeycutt at 09:03 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      In addition, capacity factor is irrelevant for LCOE and investment decisions since the grid buys power based on the lowest available price, not on when the power is available.

2797. Rob Honeycutt at 08:57 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Doug... Yes, what you're comparing is the "up front capital costs" which all new facilities incur. The up front capital costs for FF is lower, but then you're burdened with supplying that facility with fuel for the lifetime of its existence. Whereas, the up front cost of renewables are higher but they require no fuel for their lifetime. This is exactly what LCOE is. 

      Investors do not base their decisions only on up front capital costs but rather on the ROI they will see over the lifetime of the project. Renewables also generally have a shorter lifespan for any given installation, but in that span of time the investor reaps the entire return faster and moves on to a new project well before they can see their full return on a dollar-for-dollar investment for a FF based facility.

      This is why renewables are now scaling exponentially.

2798. Bob Loblaw at 08:16 AM on 28 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Nigelj:

      My comment @ 74 about people accusing SkS of deleting comments it does not agree with was not directed at you. Such accusations often appear in the final stages of a commenter breaking the moderation rules - and are typically deleted (usually shortly before a commenter's posting privileges are revoked). Regular readers would not see them.

      My view of bias in web sites, news sources, etc. is more a case of "this is what it is" rather than support of the actions of those that do it. My father worked in the newspaper business for many years, and there was a time when all major news sources made a concerted effort to provide actual balance. Different papers had their leanings, but they also had principles and a conscience. Today, I see many "news" sources that just don't care whether what they print is true or not.

      The biggest problem is that so many people cannot recognize horse pucky for what it is. That is not solved by "more people speaking louder". The long, slow process of learning a subject is lost in the fire hose of short, wrong, "anything that sells" crap that snake oil salesmen know will trigger people's worst emotions and separate them from their hard-earned dollars. It's easier to convince them that everything they don't agree with is "fake news" - even though the person saying "fake news" is the fakest of the lot.

      Alex Jones may be learning a lesson on what is allowed. Or, it may be a case where he has already learned how to move his money to places where law suits can't reach it. Law suits only cover the most obscene cases, though. Canada has laws against "hate speech", but they are rarely used. The cases that hit the news are often associated with Holocaust denial. "Free Speech" is the usual defence (and usually fails).

      Elon Musks's "free speech" position does not seem to include letting people mention alternatives to Twitter. (Links in comment 58.) His moderation policy seems to be "in flux" (to put it mildly). I tend to not trust people that say one thing while they are doing another.

2799. Doug Cannon at 08:10 AM on 28 December 2022
      Human CO2 is a tiny % of CO2 emissions
      

      Rob Honeycutt #367

      My numbers include all cost, not just installation. I didn't assume any MW/yr, or discount rate from which you could compute LCOE. With the same assumptions My numbers would agree with eia except they may be 2 years out of date.

      You have to compare the total solar cost/ MWhr excluding taxpayer payments ($36.10/Mwhr) to just the variable cost avoided by not operating the combined cycle unit when solar is available: $37.05-8.56 =$28.49/Mwhr. That's basically what we're doing today.

       

      What I was addressing was the the up front capital cost and the lower capacity factor show a major investment. Actually the 2022 eia report show this even more clearly

2800. nigelj at 05:51 AM on 28 December 2022
      We’ll keep tweeting (for now) but have also started tooting.
      

      Bob Loblaw at 74

      Thanks for the comments. I get where you are coming from.

      One clarification. I didnt mean that this website specifically deletes comments and I wasn't being critical of them for doing that. I was just speaking generally.

      This websites moderation policy actually seems generally quite well considered to me. Comments are deleted if they ramble off topic, make wild claims without reference to scientific literature or that just get repetitive.  People only have to obey a few simple rules to get their opinion published. Some people just resist this then get all agitated. They are either arrogant or just not very bright.

      The point is this website doesnt delete opinions just because it doesnt agree with them. People get a generally fair go. So the level of 'censorship' on this website  is acceptable,  but I would say its right at the upper limit of whats appropriate.

      Yes Fox News is absolutely selective and biased. However this is not an excuse for us to do ever do the same. We should always strive to be objective. If there is a bias or adherence to some ideology it should be advertised: The economist.com does this nicely in its mission statement but I cant find thething now to copy and paste. It was something along the lines that they lean centre right economically and towards free trade  but are not adverse to governments having some involvement in the economy. And that they lean liberal socially. So readers know their philosophical leaning

      Yes we all get that there have to be some limits on free speech. Its entirely about where one draws the line in the sand. Governments impose some limits on free speech. I have no problem with that in principle and generally they are fairly minimal in western countries and that is to my preference.

      The NZ governmnet goes slightly beyond some countries because it has laws against racist speech and this makes sense to me for reasons stated up thread. Its been considering hate speech law but has given up for now, because its so difficult to define hate speech and there has been a lot of push back against potentially suppressing discussion because almost anything could be labelled hate. This seems like a valid concern to me.

      But its not only governments that can limit free speech. My main concern is what websites do and I lean towards fairly minimal moderation. You and Electic seem to lean towards quite strong censorship on websites. Six months ago my views were virtually identical to Electics on this. So similar its quite startling. Now I just wonder if strong censorship  might do more harm than good. I think the trigger was our governmnets attempts to bring in hate speech laws. It just doesnt seem possible to define adequately or practically viable and is too likely to suppress opinion, and just too Orwellian for me.

      I'm sure you and Eclectic would do a good fair minded job of moderation of such issues,  but its other people I worry about.

      So back to Twitter. It is not entirely clear what Musk is up to yet. However it appears he leans strongly towards libertarian values and free speech and against censorship, and it appears he is not going to be banning people or deleting comments unless they are inciting criminal activity or are just  being extremely verbally abusive and bullying. 

      One problem is there isnt another website offering a similar service to Twitter to my knowledge. Given I have my doubts about hate speech laws, and the lack of alternatives to Twitter,  I dont think this website should feel it has to abandon Twitter at this stage. FWIW.

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