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Comments 74301 to 74350:

  1. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I was going to suggest adding an apostrophe and an s after each person's name and, before posting, realised that Rob Honeycutt at comment 30 is suggesting this already. It would make very slightly more explicitly the point that it is the statements that are the problem not the person - which is of course the point of the SkS posts about misinformers and indeed all the SkS posts. It's also noticeable that some commenters think the apostrophe is already there. It so happens that you have followed this practice already with the title of this article about the Goodyear Blimp. Cynicus's suggestion at 32 is another way of depersonalising. I think that the comments which suggest only using the person's name take this in the opposite and therefore too personalised direction. I have no problem with slip ups, but maybe crocks is raising connotations in some readers' minds (the many readers who come here for genuine education and enlightenment) that SkS authors do not intend. Let's make minor changes and move on.
  2. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    On his weblog, Dr Pielke wrote: "While there have a few constructive interactions, many of the comments are not only not constructive, but demeaning. I also spend considerable time repeating myself in answering their questions. I am disappointed as I was hoping that Skeptical Science was a weblog where a diversity of views can be discussed constructively. However, the moderators on that weblog failed to adequately police the comments." Dr. Pielke, your full comment from post 105 above is "So one is not permitted to refer to their peer reviewed papers to answer a question that the person would have known if they had read it. Very unusual. :-)" I assume from the smiley at the end that you made the comment partly in jest. Can you see that the comment implies that someone has not read your papers? The alternative, which seems a lot more likely to me, is that they read your papers, but disagree. After you made that comment one of the responses was, unfortunately, partly inflammatory and the commenter later asked to have that part snipped. Your response was to take that comment personally and the thread deteriorated from there. IMO the moderator could have done a better job, but that is obviously easy for me to say. Since you do not allow comments on many threads on your site, it appears that you may also believe that moderation is a lot of work. Those that volunteer for that job will undoubtedly have their own strong opinions on these topics, otherwise they wouldn't commit large amounts of their time to it. On the whole, IMO your comment from your weblog is incorrect. There were many constructive interactions. Points of disagreement needed to be spelled out better, not just referred to by a paper or a rebuttal to that paper. Having to repeat yourself also adds the burden of having to explain in more detail. I don't see how it is possible to come to any agreement to disagree without repetition that leads to more and more specificity. It is not only necessary but worth putting in the effort.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Yup, I could have done a better job. I made some rookie mistakes and will do better next time -- assuming that I'm not sent back to minors for more seasoning.
  3. The 2nd law of thermodynamics and the greenhouse effect
    Re #275 "Moderator Response: (DB) The law says NET heat cannot flow from cold to hot, so your comment is self-refuted." There is no other kind of heat tranfer than 'NET' heat transfer. It should be obvious that there is only 'direction of transfer'. Heat transfer from the surface to the atmosphere is 'positive' in the direction away from the surface, the surface is thus cooled by the 'NET' transfer of heat from the surface to the troposphere. Were there to be any surface warming effect it would require a 'NET' (!) tranfer of heat to the surface, which in unusual circumstances actually can happen in the troposphere (with temperature inversion). At the very low pressure in the stratosphere there is a permanent temperature inversion from lat.-55 to lat.+55 caused by O2 absorbing energy from the UV part of the solar spectrum and making O3, this solar energy causes a temperature inversion that defines the stratosphere. This inversion suppresses convection locally, which is the reason turbulance is very much reduced in the stratosphere. The heat absored from UV is small (5%?) compared with the rest of the Sun's energy, and the absorption, by O2 (and O3) takes place at stratospheric altitudes, it is also complete; so it (the UV heat) has little or no effect on the surface.
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] You are incorrect and would benefit from considering the advice you are given in more detail. Consider a binary star, one a blue giant, the other a normal main sequence star, much like our own Sun. Clearly the blue giant is the hotter and will have a warming effect on the other star because the NET transfer of heat will be from the blue giant to the main sequence star. However this does not mean that there is no transfer of heat in the other direction. The main sequence star emits photons in all directions, including in the direction of the blue giant. Each of those photons transfers heat energy from the cooler star to the hotter star. Howeve this does not violate any law of thermodynamics as the blue giant transfers more energy back to the main sequence star. This there is another kind of transfer other than "NET" and there is not only one direction of transfer, it is bidirectional, and the laws of thermodynamics only constrain the net statistical behaviour of the transfer of heat. This has been explained repeatedly on these threads already.

    Secondly, surface warming does not require a net transfer of heat from the atmosphere to the surface. If I put on an extra blanket at night I warm up, but there has not been a net transfer of heat from the blanket to my body (we know this as the blanket warms as well). This is another canard that has been refuted repeatedly on these threads.

    I suggest DNFTT, if damorbel still cant understand this after having it explained so many times, one more try is unlikely to work (yes I know there is some irony there, given I have just pointed it out again ;o)
  4. Dikran Marsupial at 17:06 PM on 22 September 2011
    SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Prof. Pielke wrote: "It would be much more effective if you would directly contact David Douglass and ask your question about his analysis." I did so shortly after the first seeing paper, pointing out the error, and recieved no reply. Likewise I emailed Prof. Salby (twice) to discuss the potential problem with his forthcoming paper, without meaningful response. Sometimes you contact an author to discuss a problem with their paper and they are happy to discuss it with you, sometimes they are not. Now the Douglass et al. paper is cited, without mention of the flaws, in a paper of which you are a co-author and which you have said is representative of your view on tropical trophospheric trends. It is therefore not unreasonable for me to ask you for your view of that paper. The new paper Christy et al (2010), of which you are a co-author appears to make a similar mistake, so it is directly relevant to your work. Surely as a co-author you have read and understood a paper that is cited in one of yours? In which case, I don't understand your reticence in commenting on it.
  5. Philippe Chantreau at 15:40 PM on 22 September 2011
    SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr Pielke proved one thing beyond doubt: he has a very thin skin. I wish him to never go voice a contrary opinion on WUWT, he might be badly traumatized. I have personally endured much worse than what he complained about.
  6. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Completely agreed Dana - Pielke's conscious attempt to label discussions of climate sensitivity as irrelevant is a deliberate attempt to divert attention away from these uncomfortable truths. If climate sensitivity is high, how can a skeptic downplay the role of CO2, especially with reference to Alley's lecture or to Knutti and Hegerl. As I've seen low climate sensitivity described as the last refuge for respectable 'skeptics', it says little for the science of climate skeptics. And of course it's rather hard to imagine how one would devise policy for local and regional adaptation (as Pielke seemed to be interested in) if you have no idea how much warming is happening...
  7. actually thoughtful at 15:08 PM on 22 September 2011
    SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    John Hartz @139 - With the understanding that everyone critiques the moderator - I would suggest to you that less is more. Specifically, I suggest you refrain from value judgments (Great post; perhaps he was tired.; que sera, sera..). Also, I suspect the thread would still be strong with about 50% fewer moderator comments (specifics are provided in the hopes of being helpful) I just read the entire post (original + all comments) and that was what struck me the most (at the meta level). Thank you for the work and being willing to take the flack from the peanut gallery.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Thsnks for the feedback. Your points are well taken. BTW, this was my maiden voyage as Moderator. (All of the vetran moderators were busy in the boiler-room trying to decipher some of Dr. Pielke's more obtuse posts.) I will state for the record that I had to bite my tongue many times as the discourse unfolded.
  8. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    precisely, pbjamm Back on topic, I think I'm most disappointed that we never got an answer regarding the discontinuity between low climate sensitivity arguments and the paleoclimate record. I've never seen any low sensitivity proponent answer this question, and unfortunately it seems Dr. Pielke was unable to answer it as well. Though it's not surprising, because frankly I think the only plausible answer is that the low climate sensitivity crowd is wrong.
  9. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    dana1981@137 I just read through most the comments there and found the experience discouraging. All insults and conspiracy, no actual content.
  10. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    John @139, You have a point, but I would still encourage people to openly discuss the science (i.e., the metrics that one should consider when monitoring climate change), with or without Dr. Pielke's input.
  11. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    Indeed it is muoncounter, because it's multiple decades! I suspect the 2000-2020 global surface temperature trend will be very close to the expected 0.2°C per decade trend as well. Oh and for the record, the AR4 Scenario A2 projection for 2000 and 2020 is indeed just about 0.2°C per decade, as stated in the report. It just happens to be lower from 2000 to 2010 in the model mean.
  12. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    As the principle Moderator of this thread, I thank the commentors for being civil and for staying on topic -- after some prodding.
  13. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Because the discourse we had embarked on has been short-circuted by Dr. Pielke's abrupt departure, I move that Dr. Pielke's response to the questions that Dana posed to him be post as a new SkS article. We can then proceed to analyze those answers on fresh comment thread. Right now, Dr. Pielke's responses are buried from plain sight in ths comment thread. He has posted the answers on his blog, but no comments are allowed.
  14. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    A bit off topic, but a few of us SkSers had some interaction on the comments at the Bishop Hill "skeptic" blog the past couple of days. Every single comment on that site was more offensive than every single comment on SkS. Basically nonstop insults and personal attacks. Really, climate blog comments don't get much more civil than at SkS. If Dr. Pielke can't handle comments here, it's certainly a good thing he doesn't allow comments on his own blog.
  15. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    This looks very close to the stated 0.19 per decade.
  16. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross, it was as ever instructive to learn from your posts. I've just read Dr pielke's post on his site. I take it he has never tried to voice a contrary opinion at Watts' blog? It beggars belief that he believes he's been poorly treated here.
  17. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Yes, I appreciate Dr. Pielke's responses, and I'm glad he gave a few position statements. The wrestling over the science had the feel of a speed round; everyone was trying to get in their questions as quickly as possible. I suspect that if Dr. Pielke had hung around a while (or will hang around a while), he'll find that he and others don't need to risk the boiling point. A good cooking temperature can be achieved by focusing on one component at a time. I think that's where things were headed. Only dialogue without the threat of categorical dismissal will achieve anything.
  18. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    We have another blog post summarizing the agreements, disagreements, and open questions in the works, although Dr. Pielke's decision to pull out of the discussion throws a small wrench into the works. I'm rather disappointed in the decision, and moreso in the way he did it, but do appreciate that he took the time to discuss some science with us and clarify is positions on some key issues. More on this in the forthcoming blog post. As for global warming and climate change metrics, I think it's clear that no single diagnostic can be sufficient on its own. Ocean heat content (Dr. Pielke's chosen metric) is an important one, but does not tell the whole story, especially given our limitations in OHC data. More on this in the forthcoming blog post as well.
  19. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    Charlie, please read the post more carefully. It's not 0.12°C per decade, it's 0.12°C for one single decade (2000 to 2010). The data is shown quite clearly in Figure 3. It's not 2020 yet. That's the point, and why I've repeatedly said it's too early to draw any major conclusions from this assessment.
  20. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    I project the 0.12C/decade out to 2100 simply to be able to compare the slope with the projections of Figure 2. I do not see how it is possible that the slope from 2000 to 2010 is 0.12C/decade. I see a slope of 0.2C/decade, not the 0.12C that you see. IPCC AR4 Synthesis report says "For the next two decades a warming of about 0.2°C per decade is projected for a range of SRES emissions scenarios." AR5 SPM Chap 3 and 3.2 I note that the only line in Figure 2not having a 0.2C/decade trend in 2000 to 2020 is the "year 2000 constant concentrations" scenario, which is described by the IPCC as "Even if the concentrations of all GHGs and aerosols had been kept constant at year 2000 levels, a further warming of about 0.1°C per decade would be expected." In your Figure 3, you claim that the blue line is a depiction of the AR4 projection for Scenario A2. I say that it is not correct. Others reading this post can read your claims, look at the figures, can look at what the IPCC and I say vs what you claim, and make their own judgements.
  21. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Before I forget again, Michael @126. A very sincere thank you.
  22. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Now with that all said, our moderator asked politely that "We need to move on to other items of discussion such as the appropriate metrics for measuring climate change." So let us get back to discussing the science. Do we elect to focus on one metric (like OHC) or do we consider the body of evidence?
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Unless Dr. Pielke returns to continue the discourse, this comment thread has pretty much run its course.
  23. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    DSL and others, In my post @111 I do try and clarify the situation by reiterating a key point. Readers will note that that post has also been edited. With that said, it is very unfortunate that Dr. Pielke Sr. elected to bow out of the discussion here, and while he may not share my sentiment, I for one do appreciate him coming here. Yes, discussion was heated at times, but as anyone who has undergone peer-review or has been in academia, that is how these matters are for often discussed and debated. I want to acknowledge that for Dr. Pielke to post here must have been difficult him at times, not in terms of material of course, but because not many people share his beliefs and opinions. I am glad that Dr. Pielke agrees that reducing GHG levels is a primary concern. So it was not all bad and some common ground was achieved on key issues-- at least that is my impression (Dr. Pielke seems to disagree, see link to his blog post below). Where the conflict arises is how Dr, Pielke chooses to convey his position to policy makers, the public and the House of Representatives. Rather than making unequivocal and reasonable statements as he did here, "The emission of CO2 into the atmosphere, and its continued accumulation in the atmosphere is changing the climate. We do not need to agree on the magnitude of its global average radiative forcing to see a need to limit this accumulation. The biogeochemical effect of added CO2 by itself is a concern as we do not know its consequences. At the very least, ecosystem function will change resulting in biodiversity changes as different species react differently to higher CO2. The prudent path, therefore, is to limit how much we change our atmosphere." Dr. Pielke instead presented politicians in March 2011 with hypotheses that they have very little hope in grasping and which appear, to them at least, to focus on uncertainty and focus on issues secondary to GHGs. This is what he chose to say to them, the very people who are in a position to take prompt and meaningful action on AGW: "1. Research has shown that a focus on just carbon dioxide and a few other greenhouse gases as the dominant human influence on climate is too narrow, and misses other important human influences. 2. The phrases “global warming” and “climate change” are not the same. Global warming is a subset of climate change. 3. The prediction (or projection) of regional weather, including extremes, decades into the future is far more difficult than commonly assumed. As well, the attribution of extreme events to a particular subset of climate forcings is scientifically incomplete, if the research ignores other relevant human and natural causes of extreme weather events. 4. The climate science assessments of the IPCC and CCSP, as well as the various statements issued by the AGU, AMS and NRC, are completed by a small subset of climate scientists who are often the same individuals in each case." Quite different from his statement made here, and hardly conducive to elucidating the pertinent issues for people who are not familiar with the science, or alerting them to the urgency at hand. Why would he do that? What troubles me very much, and what should perhaps concern other people following this, is that within hours of bowing out here, Dr. Pielke made this post on his blog. If people here make assertions or challenge the content of a blog post are (within the limits of the "Comments Policy") free to do so. Many diverse views and opinions are voiced daily here at SkepticalScience. Some regular skeptics who post here have been discussing the same issue for months now. In contrast, no-one except Dr. Pielke has that freedom or privilege at Dr. Pielke's blog. Him airing that post is not acting in good faith in my opinion, rather it is very much trying to spin the situation in his favour by making unsubstantiated and demonstrably false allegations that cannot be challenged on his site. Consequently, his opinion and understanding of the situation become fact to his audience.
  24. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    Charlie, the climate model projections are quite clearly not linear (see Figure 2), so I don't know why you're projecting a linear trend out to 2100. As the post states, we digitized the IPCC's multi-model average for scenario A2 (the red line), and the short-term trend was simply calculated in Excel. As the post notes, it's too short of a timeframe to say anything meaningful.
  25. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    To all participants - Personal opinion here, all caveats accepted. I would like to thank Dr. Pielke for participating - I wish he would have continued. While I strongly disagree with his viewpoints on any number of topics, I find that a conversation is the only way to understand where differing opinions come from, and the only way in many cases to move forward is equipped with that knowledge. While the conversation here occasionally became more heated than productive, I would have to say that I have learned quite a bit from all participants. But please - can we get back to discussing the science, rather than rhetorical "position statements"? And I most definitely include Dr. Pielke in that sentence!
  26. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Eric, discussion is impossible when one party misrepresents another. It is in effect a strawman. Misrepresentation must be clarified.
  27. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Eric (skeptic) - "Misrepresented is a false accusation. Dishonorable is an insult. Not worthy of this site." If (as has happened to me upon occasion) my statements are reworded to twist the meaning, that's definitely "misrepresentation". And I will continue to call folks on it when it occurs. I would, however, agree about the word "dishonorable". Discussions may be quite frustrating, and everyone will certainly form their opinions about the participants. While it is reasonable (if quite rude) to say that something 'seems like xxxx to me', it's quite unreasonable to assign such motives to another person.
  28. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    #125, unfortunately getting into arguments about whether one is being misrepresented or not is almost always off topic and unproductive. It is far better to return to the original topic and repeat the question (clarify if possible) or repeat the answer and clarify that.
  29. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross, I rarely comment anymore because I have noticed that you and several other commenters do a better job than I do. I did not previously understand how detailed your knowledge of the state of the literature was until I saw this discussion. It is too bad that Dr. Pielke decided to dodge so many of your points. I can certainly make up my mind about the points that were made. I am especially stunned that Dr. Pielke would present his paper with 18 coauthors as peer reviewed and then provide no evidence of peer review when you quoted the journal as saying the item was not peer reviewed. That alone speaks volumes. If the paper was peer reviewed, why is the evidence not promptly provided? Your point that Dr Pielkes' attempt to argue from authority is countered by the position paper of the Union itself was perfect! Thank you for your succinct discussion of the detailed points that only an exceptionally informed person could make. Dr Pielke would have fooled me on many points without your clear refutation of his claims.
    Response:

    [DB] Albie is a big-leaguer and we at SkS are very fortunate to have him here as a Forum member and participant.

  30. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    When Person A asserts that Person B is misrepresenting Person A's argument or ignoring a question, and Person A provides evidence for that, Person B should either 1. Concede/retract (apology or not) or 2. Challenge Person A This is one way that debate moves forward and learning is accomplished. Sometimes it's an honest mistake or miscommunication on either/both persons involved. Taking a sincere interest in what someone else's argument helps, and there's no shame in conceding you might be wrong. By my observations, Dr. Pielke has chosen less constructive approaches here. However, I for one appreciate him taking the time to stray beyond the usual comfort zone blogs, many of which contain a level of uncivility far surpassing the worst seen here.
  31. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    "Perhaps he's had a long day and is just tired" I actually thought this a benign comment, providing him with a clear out. I often lose a little patience late in the day. Not everyone is made for this kind of give and take. Too bad...I was starting to get a real impression of what his position was, which I've never quite understood before. Didn't quite get there though. I also thank him for coming on.
  32. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Misrepresented is a false accusation. Dishonorable is an insult. Not worthy of this site.
  33. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr Pielke, you seem to take offence rather too easily when somebody disagrees with your position. If all you ever refer to are your own papers (largely true in these exchanges), you very easily fall into the trap of "one-sided skepticism" by not considering the full body of literature. Perhaps you're just looking for a reason not to answer the many questions you have so far ducked in the various exchanges. I would note you've done exactly what VeryTallGuy suggested in #75, among his pertinet points in that comment. I remain absolutely astounded that somebody so interested in regional climate change seems not to think that CO2 and other long-lived greenhouse gases are the strongest positive global radiative forcing element (#94). You also appear to think that the warming forced by greenhouse gases cannot have a significant effect on a regional scale through influencing and changing weather patterns. Much of this is no longer in the model realm, as these changes are now observed. How on earth do you mitigate sea ice reduction (albedo), ocean acidification, sea level rise, or globally-forced weather pattern changes on a regional scale?
  34. Lessons from Past Climate Predictions: IPCC AR4
    You say "The model projections actually begin in 2000. The trends over that period are 0.12°C (projected) vs. 0.15°C (observed) per decade." Are we to understand that 0.12C/decade is the trend for the projection for A2 scenario from 2000 to 2010 ?? 0.12C/decade is obviously 1.2C/century, so it is easy to draw a straight line from the year 2000 point on the graph to a point at year 2100 that is 1.2C higher. That line falls well below the red A2 slope for 2000 to 2010. Your claim that the AR4 A2 projection is 0.12C/decade also disagrees with the text statement in AR4 that said there is little difference between the different scenarios for the first 20 years or so, and that the slope of all projections is about 0.2C/decade. Please clarify how you came up with 0.12C/decade.
  35. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    "These types of non-constructive comments are a major reason I stopped accepting comments on my weblog." A willingness to apologize when one has misrepresented another's position is one of the most fundamental attributes of an honorable person. " Readers on your weblog who have not commented can make up their own minds on the exchange of views that have already occurred." I, for one, would like to thank RPSr for having confirmed my previous impression of him from years of having occasionally read his blog.
  36. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    John Hartz - "Perhaps he's had a long day and is just tired" "Please let me remind you that it was you who chose to misrepresent my position and my statement on citations in your post @105, and at the same time belittle it. Now you are trying to take offense to the fact that I was annoyed/offended by you misrepresenting me and are trying to accuse me of being discourteous?" This type of exchange occurs too much on your weblog. These types of non-constructive comments are a major reason I stopped accepting comments on my weblog. Therefore, I appreciate you giving me an opportunity to express my views. Readers on your weblog who have not commented can make up their own minds on the exchange of views that have already occurred. However, I require a courteous exchange of viewpoints, even when there is disagreement, and, unfortunately, except for several excellent open-minded and cordial comments by your readers, a large fraction of the comments are not of that type. Much of my effort is going in circles and repeating myself. Thus, this is my last comment on your weblog.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Que sera, sera.
  37. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    John @118, Me neither John. That post @ 117 by Dr. Pielke came out of left field.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Perhaps he's had a long day and is just tired.
  38. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr. Pielke, Please let me remind you that it was you who chose to misrepresent my position and my statement on citations in your post @105, and at the same time belittle it. Now you are trying to take offense to the fact that I was annoyed/offended by you misrepresenting me and are trying to accuse me of being discourteous? Let me also not that earlier when I mistakenly misrepresented your position on an issue and I immediately apologized. And lastly, I am not the one who has had offensive statements snipped from their post on this thread, that was you. I am afraid that your reasoning for ceasing what had been an energetic exchange of ideas and science makes no sense. I'm sorry that you feel that way and feel that your indignance is not warranted. Feel free to ignore me, but I am still free to post comments and critique on your posts here.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] This is not how I envisioned tying off the discussion on climate models.
  39. Philippe Chantreau at 08:13 AM on 22 September 2011
    CERN - Saying Nothing About Cosmic Ray Effects on Climate
    Thank you for finally providing some real references. However, no connection has been proven yet. One needs to look at more than one paper when assessing the state of knowledge about a particular issue. IF the effect is real, which is a big if, since there is still no physical mechanism for particle growth, it is minute, at best. That's according to Laken et al (2010), the very paper you linked. I note that an earlier Laken paper still couldn't find a correlation. Kulmala et al (2010) looked at various data over an entire solar cycle and failed to detect anything meaningful: "Our analysis shows that none of the quantities related to aerosol formation correlates with the cosmic ray-induced ionisation intensity (CRII)." Nothing is proven in the GCR/cloud "relationship." At best, it is controversial and if an effect does exists, it is very small. Laken et al (2010) concludes: "The climatic forcings resulting from such solar – terrestrial links may have had a significant impact on climate prior to the onset of anthropogenic warming." I find a strong discrepancy between this language and your interpretation.
  40. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross - I keep answering your questions. Also, with this kind of discourteous response "Please so not play word games with me, and please do not misrepresent and distort what I said, as well as ignore the reasons provided for my concerns. I suggest that you read my post again carefully and reflect.' I am finished responding to you.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] A casual observer might conclude that you are purposely ducking the issues posed by Albatorss in a very straightforward, non-confrontational manner in #115.
  41. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Sorry John Hartz, I was composing my most recent post and only saw your note after I posted. OK, moving on :) Besides, I have to take care of some stuff.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Thank you. I know from expereince that "model-heads" can get into passionate and lengthy discussions about the subject.
  42. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr. Pielke @113, "If you conclude that in order to be a "first-order" climate forcing it must significantly alter the global annual average radiative forcing, than this conflicts with the NRC (2005) report." OK, let me clarify. Maybe I missed it, but I did not see the report refer to land-use change as a primary or first-order of global climate. They do say that: "The strengths of the traditional radiative forcing concept warrant its continued use in scientific investigations, climate change assessments, and policy applications. At the same time, its limitations call for using additional metrics that account more fully for the nonradiative effects of forcing, the spatial and temporal heterogeneity of forcing, and nonlinearities." They also say that: "Regional variations in radiative forcing are likely important for understanding regional and global climate responses; however, the relationship between the two is not well understood. Regional climate responses can also be caused by global forcings, making it difficult to disentangle the effects of regional and global forcings." And they include this figure from TAR: The NRC report says: "The largest positive forcing (warming) in Figure ES-2 is from the increase of well-mixed greenhouse gases (CO2, nitrous oxide [N2O], methane [CH4], and chlorofluorocarbons [CFCs]) and amounted to 2.4 W m−2 (watts per square meter) between the years 1750 and 2000. Of the forcings shown in the figure, the radiative impact of aerosols is the greatest uncertainty." Land albedo does not rank very high and Myhre and Myhre (2003) found that the albedo affect is probably <+/- 0.5 W m-2. They do not that: "The concept is inadequate for some forcing agents, such as absorbing aerosols and land-use changes, that may have regional climate impacts much greater than would be predicted from TOA radiative forcing." Note they say inadequate, not inappropriate or unacceptable. They recommend: "The net radiative forcing of the atmosphere can be deduced from the difference between TOA and surface radiative forcing and may be able to provide information on expected changes in precipitation and vertical mixing. " They note: "Regional variations in radiative forcing may have important regional and global climatic implications that are not resolved by the concept of global mean radiative forcing." Note they say "may". That was 2005. If you object to spending money on decadel projections, fair enough you are entitled to your opinion, but then how do you reconcile that with urging governments to spend money investigating hypotheticals? You seem to be using this hypothesis to confuse policy makers in the USA into not mandating that prompt and meaningful action be taken on AGW. That may not be your intention, but that is certainly how they will perceive it if they are reluctant to move forward, you may be unwittingly (or not) providing them a convenient a sophisticated sounding excuse. It does not have to be an either or, we can address both, while also taking prompt action on reducing GHGs.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Excellent post!
  43. CERN - Saying Nothing About Cosmic Ray Effects on Climate
    The Forbrush event is like when a building collapses in a fire. It is part of the fire but not all of it. It is handy for proving the connection because it is abrupt. The activity of the sun varies with the predictable cycles and produces important but not as dramatic magnetic fields. Didn't you read the Laken paper?
  44. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr. Pielke, My apologies if I misrepresented your position-- that was my honest take. Your (non) apology for misrepresenting me is accepted ;) So you are suggesting that we do not bother with improving forecasts (despite users, policy makers, governments and stake holders demanding them of scientists) because of the complexities of the climate system are just too great? But let us differentiate carefully between choosing our battles with models and their development and tossing them out with the bath water as some suggest (Lindzen in particular has no time for models, and Specner has little interest in those models with higher climate sensitivity). "What do we know today from these models that we did not know in 1992?" I sincerely hope that this question made in jest. Can you clarify, in your testimony you said "There is no way to test hypotheses with the multi-decadal global climate model forecasts for decades from now as step 2, as a verification of the skill of these forecasts, is not possible until the decades pass." Yet here you are arguing that the models cannot predict decadal climate but at the same time you are telling others that there is no way of testing whether or not they can do so. But your hang up seem to be the time frame, well yes, that is an issue, but we do not need to wait further before taking meaningful action on GHGs. It would be foolhardy to argue that we need complete understanding (and high confidence and low uncertainty) in order to move forward. Uncertainty cuts both ways, just just towards lucky breaks and low climate sensitivity. And again, other lines of evidence such as the paleo record a indicate that it would be wise to be prudent and taking this matter very seriously. The science and models are advancing, for example the climate sensitivity NASA's GISS model has reduced slightly over the years as they have implemented changes. Advances have been made in computer power (which is getting cheaper) that has allowed finer grid spacing to be used, both in the vertical and horizontal, and also allowed the implementation of fully coupled AOGCMS and more sophisticated land-surface schemes, including dynamic vegetation schemes. Surely you can recognize that an immense amount of change has taken place in the modeling world since Manabe et al.'s (1991,1992) seminal work. Do you wish for that to cease? Or is is just the decadal projections that you are opposed to?
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] Please try to wrap up your dialogue with Dr. Pielke on climate models. We need to move on to other items of discussion such as the appropriate metrics for measuring climate change.
  45. CERN - Saying Nothing About Cosmic Ray Effects on Climate
    tblakeslee#85: "Forbush events ... useful for proving the connection to cloud formation." Except that connection is not proven. Once again, Dragic finds very few FDs have any measurable effect. As proof, you offer a Svensmark paper. Not impressed. But then, in the same paragraph, you state "important driver of cloud cover is not the Forbush events but the predictable cycles driven by planetary positions." Which is it? You can't play it both ways: either FDs have an effect or they do not. If planetary cycles are the drivers, what does that have to do with any possible cosmic ray induced cloud formation?
  46. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross - On #102 You write Thank you. I think I know how we can come to terms on your position about land use and land cover change. I'm going to make a suggestion to you comment: "Land use-land cover change is a first order forcing for regional climate as it can alter regional climate more than that caused by the radiative forcing of added CO2; in contrast, the role Land use-land cover change in driving global climate change is still uncertain and as shown by Forster et al., is unlikely to be significant relative to forcing from GHGs and aerosols." On that I can agree. And I'm not sure how you can continue to argue that something which has (near) zero net global radiative forcing can be considered a first-order radiative forcing." If you conclude that in order to be a "first-order" climate forcing it must significantly alter the global annual average radiative forcing, than this conflicts with the NRC (2005) report.
  47. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross You write "Your proposed method of dealing with AGW sounds like it involved a lot of delay and even more research money over and above what is already being spent." This is completely contrary to my view. We are wasting vast amount of money on multi-decadal global climate predictions. I much prefer those funds be spent for technology development for more efficient energy sources including non-fossil fuel sources, and adaptation. We already know CO2 is a first order climate forcing. Everything else being done to provide more detailed forecasts on decadal time scales is a waste as we keep learning more of the complexity of the climate system and the challenges of skillful forecasts. What do we know today from these models that we did not know in 1992? On #103, I already answered John Hartz question in two comments.
  48. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Dr. Pielke @106, "So one is not permitted to refer to their peer reviewed papers to answer a question that the person would have known if they had read it" [inflammatory text snipped] Please do not misrepresent and distort what I said, as well as ignore the reasons provided for my concerns. I suggest that you read my post again carefully and reflect. I obviously did not say that one should not permitted the peer-reviewed literature, in fact what you say is the opposite of my point. I very clearly spelled out why on must in fact DO that (i.e., consult the body of knowledge, understanding and science). People reading your comments on this thread would think that there are very few people working on land surface processes, and land-atmosphere feedbacks, and that you are one of those few. That is most certainly not the case. Or do you disagree with that fact?
    Moderator Response: Comment edited as requested.
  49. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    Albatross - Re #95, I posted on their paper. See http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/new-paper-observed-changes-in-surface-atmospheric-energy-over-land-by-peterson-et-al-2011/ Their study found the same larger values as we did, as I dicuss in my post.
  50. SkS Responses to Pielke Sr. Questions
    John Hartz - If the readers are not familiar with the common acronyms, they will not likely be familiar with what they mean.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] If acronyms are defined, the average person will have a better chance of understanding a statement. The golden rule of effective communication is, "Know thy audience."

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