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All IPCC definitions taken from Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis. Working Group I Contribution to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Annex I, Glossary, pp. 941-954. Cambridge University Press.

Recent Comments

Comments 6701 to 6750:

MA Rodger at 22:16 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Michael Sweet @212,

The 'fueling' of Swedish electricity generation is more correctly 40% Hydro, 18% Other Renewables, 40% Nuclear, 2% FF.

These numbers also will inform the comment @210 where a "vital point" was the low Swedish emissions which were presented only as "appear(ing) causal with (Sweden's) use of nuclear power."

There is also some blather about UK Nuclear @210. 33% of UK electricity is renewables and increasing by the year, while 21% is Nuclear which is set to halve in the next few years. In terms of end-user power, those percentages equate to 5.5% renewable and 3.5% Nuclear. So the UK still remains 90% dependent on FF.

Moderator Response:

[BL] Portions related to comment 210 deleted, as those contents have been subject to moderation..

michael sweet at 19:59 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Preston Urka:

It is easy to make something look good by leaving out critical information.

Sweden generates approximately 50% of its electricity from hydropower. That is a greater share of generation than nuclear. That is why its carbon production from the electricity sector is so low. You have deliberately left this out to give the misleading impression that nuclear power is the main reason Sweden has low carbon emissions from electricity.

You have set up a completely artifical standard to judge electrical systems. You cherry pick the countries you analize. You provide no citations to support your ideas. Since you have no education, training or work experience in electrical systems you are simply sloganeering again.

Nuclear power has been built for 60 years. Every nuclear reactor ever built world wide was built with large government subsidies. Nuclear has never been successful enough to buuild out in large amounts. Only France has more than 50% of electricity from nuclear power. France has announced they are going to lower nuclear and focus on renewable energy. Nuclear power is decreasing because not enough plants are being built to replace old, retiring plants.

By contrast, renewable energy has only been economic for about 5 years. It has already been built out enough to provide 10% of world electricity. Every year more renewable energy is built.

There will be some problems as the energy system is changed to completely renewable energy. Different systems of energy storage than what is used today will have to be developed. People like you who make false arguments that renewable energy cannot work delay required progress.

Nuclear is uneconomic. There is only enough uranium to power the entire economy for 5 years.

Moderator Response:

[BL] Repeated points deleted. Information about Sweden left to maintain context for following comment by MAR.

michael sweet at 19:34 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Preston Urka at 208:

You claim that the APR1400 reactors are approved for construction in the USA. It is common for rector designs to be customized for specific installations. According to this white paper:

"KEPCO’s winning bid for the construction of the UAE reactors was spectacularly low, about 30% lower than the next cheapest bid. Nuclear reactor design has evolved, but since Korea Hydro & Nuclear Power (KHNP) – a subsidiary of KEPCO – realised that the cost of key improved safety design features would make the APR1400 less competitive, they chose not to include them. Having done so, KEPCO was able to dramatically undercut its competition for the UAE bid, with the Chief Executive of the French nuclear corporation Areva, Anne Lauvergeon, comparing the Korean reactor to a car without airbags and seat belts.⁶"

It appears that the Barakah reactors were built without safety features required in the USA and EU. These safety features were removed from the design to save money. The approved APR1400 design has the required safety features. Nuclear plant builders do not care if their reactors are safe.

One of the removed safety features is additional reinforcing to resist terrorist attacks. Who could imagine that terrorists would attack a nuclear plant in the Middle East??? Houthi rebels in Yemen claim they have already shot missiles at the Barakah plant. Here is an article from NBN media discussing the lax safety at Barakah.

The fact remains that KEPCO has no additional orders for these reactors. Apparently, no-one else in the entire world wants to build unsafe nuclear reactors in their country.

Moderator Response:

[BL] Personal opinions deleted.

Preston Urka at 13:36 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

My belief is that the relevant criteria for an energy grid that does not drive climate change is a low-carbon dioxide emission energy grid.

Of course, RE being low-carbon energy resources may contribute to a green energy grid effectively. The evidence I use in @198 (IEA data, 2017-2018, my apologies for not noting that) shows that nations which have high penetrations of dispatchable RE, dispatchable nuclear have been able to achieve a low-carbon energy grid.

I believe the evidence also shows that no nation (as yet, it could happen, but as of yet, it hasn't - so why don't we take the approach we know works?) with high penetrations intermittent RE has been able to achieve a low-carbon energy grid.

Your response, michael sweet@199, ignores the relevant factor emissions. Your observations might be interesting, if, and only if, the relevant criteria were intermittent RE penetration. These observations are not an argument, because they don't address emissions.

Should you win the lotto because you are a good person? Irrelevant - you win the lotto because of a random draw that had nothing to do with you except that you bought a lucky ticket.

France will have more RE - so what? The vital point is France has much lower emissions than Germany NOW, and it appears causal with their use of nuclear power.

Denmark has 47% RE electricity - so what? The vital point is Sweden has much lower emissions than Denmark, and it appears causal with their use of nuclear power.

You clearly find the % penetration of RE fascinating. I find neither the % penetrations of intermittent RE nor nuclear interesting. I find the low-carbon countries interesting. Then I ask, how did they do it?

Some countries got lucky due to their geography! - geography is not scalable
Some countries built nuclear! - scalable - this is a solution to pay attention to
There does not appear to be a 3rd answer.

Even the UK is doing better than poor old Wind_and_Solar_Germany!

tot e&h only - 2017/18 IEA data again
Germany 8.2 3.6 36% non-hydro renewables; 13% nuclear
Europe 5.9 2.1 Europe, not the EU
UK 5.3 1.2 32% non-hydro renewables; 20% nuclear

The British green energy transition has proven cheaper and more effective than Germany’s because of factors including its use of market mechanisms and its embrace of nuclear power, argues Philip Plickert in an op-ed for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung.- note: Not a peer-reviewed article!

You can see from the table that the UK appears similar to Germany, but the real trick is that the UK burns less coal than Germany - that's it - they simply send less CO2 into the atmosphere!

Also better than Denmark! despite not having whatever % intermittent RE penetration one wishes to rhapsodize over. If the UK stopped burning natural gas, they could get to French or Swedish levels.

Moderator Response:

[BL] repeated declaration of beliefs constitues sloganeering, which is contrary to the comments policy. This has gone far enough.

nigelj at 13:05 PM on 3 September 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

gseattle @8

"[2] NASA: 1880 to 2020 CO2 increased from 291 ppm to 414 ppm = +123 ppm. 123 / 140 years = .88 ppm average per year. 95 percent come from natural sources. Therefore our CO2 is .88 ppm x .05 = only .04 ppm per year average. "

You are very mistaken in your conclusion. The page you link to says: "Die Welt presented a common number-trick (deception, nonsense) by climate deniers, (as follows): In fact, carbon dioxide, which is blamed for climate warming, has only a volume share of 0.04 percent in the atmosphere. And of these 0.04 percent CO2, 95 percent come from natural sources, such as volcanoes or decomposition processes in nature. The human CO2 content in the air is thus only 0.0016 percent........"

The 95% carbon dioxide added by natural sources is largely from the biosphere, and volcanoes etcetera and has been largely constant over the last 100 years and is absorbed back into natural carbon sinks, so it cannot explain the increase from 291 ppm to 414 ppm. Only human activities like burning fossil fuels and deforestation explain it, because these has been ever increasing activities, and not all the CO2 is absorbed back into carbon sinks. If you refer to the list of climate myths on this website page at the side, you will find some detailed explanations.

"That's why NOAA pointed out the covid shutdown didn't make a dent in CO2 levels at Mauna Loa Observatory, because nature's portion is so vast."

No that is not the reason. NOAA are saying the effects of covid on CO2 levels cant be detected atmospherically because they are masked by the quite large cyclical variation of CO2 you get within one or two years due to seasonal changes and el nino. If the covid shutdown went on for say 5 years you would see a change in atmospheric levels.

So you have misinterpreted things quite badly.

I agree population growth is a problem in terms of virtually all environmental impacts, but I think that manipulating this trend is unlikely to do much to stop either the climate change problem or species extinction, as follows. Population started to slow since the 1960s as countries have entered the demographic transition which has favoured smaller families, and as governments have sometimes pushed population growth rates down deliberately. There may be more that can be done to slow population growth, but it would seem unlikely that people will stop having children and more likely that they might settle on 1 - 2 chidren.

This means the population trends still lead to about 9 billion people or so by the end of this century, so this would not have any significant effect on slowing down the climate problem or biodiversity loss, this century anyway. And by then the damage will have been done.

So its important we change our sources of energy, and reduce deforestation and change how we farm.

Preston Urka at 13:02 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

I made a mistake in post #208 - the flipping back and forth between pages really makes it quite hard, but the best I can do - I mean to state post #196 of michael sweet's, not post #198.

Preston Urka at 12:58 PM on 3 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Dear Reader - I hope you made it this far - 10 posts and a page later - but in post #198 michael sweet at 20:32 PM on 8 August, 2020 stated: "... [the Barakah nuclear power plants, using the APR-1400 designs] would be illegal to build these plants in the USA or EU."

This is flat out incorrect and wrong. Please draw your own conclusions as to michael sweet's care and diligence in his research and arguments.

Statement from the NRC on September 19, 2019:

VI. Issue Resolution A. The Commission has determined that the structures, systems, and components and design features of the APR1400 design comply with the provisions of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, and the applicable regulations identified in Section V of this appendix; and therefore, provide adequate protection to the health and safety of the public. A conclusion that a matter is resolved includes the finding that additional or alternative structures, systems, and components, design features, design criteria, testing, analyses, acceptance criteria, or justifications are not necessary for the APR1400 design.

Moderator Response:

[DB] Ad hominem snipped.

gseattle at 12:01 PM on 3 September 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

Not yet bc I don't know how to contact Greta, would if I could, she's on facebook but I dropped fb. If she started seeing people in numbers saying hey, where's the science on that, it seems to me the only likely way she would take note of it.

Tricky to talk about, one risks being seen as not caring about the environment, and it's all so complex, but the only way we can solve anything is being willing to open our eyes to the real problem, the extra 150 new people on earth every minute [1]. Currently the message is: Oh no, our CO2 is destroying this world. But our CO2 portion of the increase is only 1/20th of 1 part per million per year. [2]

For anyone interested, today I ran into this free paper providing an overview of the various extinction models: Emergence of a sixth mass extinction? John C Briggs 2017 Oxford Still trying to wrap my head around the methods and find an actual complete formula.

[1] 150 new people on the planet every minute based on United Nations population numbers and projection for 2050.

[2] NASA: 1880 to 2020 CO2 increased from 291 ppm to 414 ppm = +123 ppm. 123 / 140 years = .88 ppm average per year. 95 percent come from natural sources. Therefore our CO2 is .88 ppm x .05 = only .04 ppm per year average. That's why NOAA pointed out the covid shutdown didn't make a dent in CO2 levels at Mauna Loa Observatory, because nature's portion is so vast.

So our part of the CO2 increase is only 4 hundredths of 1 part per million per year. And the temperature increase is only 0.0071 degrees C average per year over 140 years, based on total 1.0 C (NASA). And there is no known species extinct from those tiny changes underlying climate change, instead only 869 total since 1500 and all due to the crush of humanity, hunting, new farmland, pesticides etc (IUCN), or .58 species per year.

Everyone can agree .58/yr (actual) is less than 73,000/yr at 200 per day (imagined).

Thank you kindly for that BBC article Nigel, I wasn't aware of it. Says this for example, and might a key to what went so wildly wrong:

Hubbell's point is that if you increase a habitat by, say, five hectares, and your calculations show that you expect there to be five new species in those five hectares, it is wrong to assume that reversing the model, and shrinking your habitat, eliminates five species.

The full version of this has a formula and I don't understand it yet: Species–area relationships always overestimate extinction rates from habitat loss, Stephen P. Hubbell and Fangliang He, 2013, Nature

[links are all designated to open in a new tab or window]

John Hartz at 00:38 AM on 3 September 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

gseattle: Have you shared you concerns with Ms Thunberg? (I doubt she will see them here on this comment thead.)

nigelj at 15:25 PM on 2 September 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

I think its unfair to blame Greta for quoting a number of species extinctions that is an often quoted number in reputable publications, and she did not say it was all caused by climate change.

This number of 150 - 200 species going extinct per day is based on modelling, and the modelling may be flawed as in this BBC article. That said, the article suggests the correct number is still very high.

And I think its important to realise it takes a lot to make a species completely 100% extinct, and is very hard to measure such a thing in the real world, but we do know with good certainty that many species are on the brink of exinction or with very low numbers, so they have to be protected, and so are of no immediate use to humanity and are very vulnerable to extinction. This is almost as worrying as extinction.

In other words lets not split hairs and lose sight of the fact that human activities are having a massive negative impact on the biosphere and climate.

gseattle at 13:16 PM on 2 September 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

Found an earlier 200 species claim, seems to be the first ever:

1995, Adam Rogers of United Nations, [Book] Taking action: An environmental guide for you and your community
... "every 24 hours, an estimated 150 to 200 species of life become extinct" (in the preface)
... No citation or reference.

Didn't find a formula at ipbes, still trying to locate clear species estimate models. The creators of one model, Stephen Hubbell and Fangliang He … wrote in 2011: “extinction rates overestimate extinction”. That’s an understatement because the Rogers claim could have 1 in 5 extinct by now (over 1.8M) and IUCN says only 869 known extinct since 1500. Causes are always from the crush of humanity, hunting, pesticides etc, not climate.

That book by Rogers mentions 'climate' 42 times but doesn't cite climate change in connection with extinctions, it says:

The predominant causes for the loss of biodiversity and the degradation of biological resources include large-scale clearing and burning of forests, destruction of coral reefs, destructive fishing practices, overharvesting of plants and animals, the illegal trade in endangered species of wild fauna and flora, indiscriminate use of pesticides, draining and filling of wetlands, air pollution, and the conversion of wildlands to agricultural and urban uses.
Many of these causes are themselves symptoms of much deeper problems. In many cases, the root causes for the loss of biodiversity are found in basic economic, demographic and political trends. These root causes include consumption and consequent market demands for commodities such as tropical hardwoods, wildlife, fibre and agricultural products. Population growth is another key factor [gseattle: Bingo!!] . The growing human population, even without proportional economic growth, places increasing demands on natural resources and ecosystem processes that are already impoverished and stressed. Settlement policies, such as those in Brazil, promote the movement of the growing unemployed labor forces to frontier regions.

There are 150 new people on earth every MINUTE (even accounting for deaths) based on United Nations population estimate and 2050 projection. Tiny Bangladesh has more people than Russia. I'd suggest the best thing we can do to protect the climate is offer people $300 for voluntary sterilizations as a token thanks for caring about the planet. We're up against corporate boardrooms who lust for all those new consumers and care only about stock price going up.

The grossly exaggerated extinction claims are not a sensible way to promote climate awareness, it is off-putting for people who think rather than just enjoy bathing in fear, it is criticized even by some who created models, has zero connection to reality, is wildly incorrect (a Yale article asks why), yet thanks in part to Greta, wound up in a blender with climate and has legs, parrot legs. Alarmists would like to be seen as the ones who are scientific but to do so, since the claim evidently was created out of thin air instead of a scientific paper, it would be wise to jettison it in the campaign, seriously, this is sound advice. The false connection with climate came into existence out of sloppy thinking and a dose of intellectual dishonesty. This is not hyperbole, emotion or speculation, I've gone through at least 93 scientific papers on climate, for example, many of them on species, and those are only the ones I've saved, I did my homework. Greta didn't.

Those of you who visit this website, being thoughtful, now that you know these things, have an opportunity to nudge the climate campaign toward sanity. Greta is being mocked by around half of the top 100 videos about her, it doesn't have to be that way, but she must be corrected, informed of this and make herself willing to re-align with truth, she should apologize publicly, confess, concede that point, she's falsely scaring people with that bogus distraction away from real problems. I want her to grow up to be someone we can trust.

In summary, the 200 species extinct per day claim is 100% nonsense, an embarrassing mockery of real science.

Be nice, let your weapons be scientific facts.

MA Rodger at 22:33 PM on 1 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Preston Ukra @204,

The link you quote from, dated 19/8/20, says "nuclear operators will begin the process of gradually raising unit 1's power levels, known as power ascension testing [My bold]" suggesting that to-date the electricity supply is no more than early testing. Indeed, the quote you provide continues to say that Barakah-1 "is expected to enter full commercial operation later this year" so it is not yet properly operational.

The link also quotes the director general of the World Nuclear Association, saying: "This is a great achievement for all those working at Barakah. Today the UAE joins the growing list of countries choosing nuclear energy as part of their commitment to a cleaner and more sustainable future. What the UAE has learned and achieved should be repeated around the world so that more people can benefit from the value and benefits that nuclear energy offers. [My bold]" Until some of that 'repetition' starts to appear, the "Pudding Test" which is what I set out @197 will not have been passed by nuclear.

michael sweet at 07:25 AM on 1 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Preston Urka at 202:

You say "[in my post 199] You just can't read the links and caveats can you?"

At post 199 I was responding to your post 198. Your post 198 has no links to read. I note that your post 202 also has no links to support your arguments. I cannot read links that are not provided.

Your post 202 consists primarily of your fantasy use of nuclear waste heat to power industry. I note that you concede that zero current nuclear reactors use their waste heat. Since you cite no peer reviewed papers, or even industry white papers, and you claim no education, training or experience in the design or running of nuclear plants, idle speculation about possible use of waste heat is sloganeering so the moderator has deleted it.

You additionally mention your fantasy that nuclear power could be used in shipping. Only one freighter has been built wiith a nuclear power plant. It is uneconomic to run since a reactor requires many more operators than a traditional ship. Military vessels do not care about the extreme cost. In addition, you would need approximately 50,000 reactors to power the world fleet of freighters. Imagine the disasters as 50,000 atomic powered ships sink, are abandoned or are overpowered by terrorists worldwide!

Your posts and arguments are identical to Engineer Poet at RealClimate. Why have you changed your handle?

Nuclear power is uneconomic. It currently costs more for operation and maintenance of a nuclear power plant with no mortgage than to build a new renewable energy plant with a mortgage. As MARodger points out, it takes 10-20 years to plan and build a nuclear plant versus 2-5 years to plan and build a renewable plant.

Moderator Response:

[BL] Please tone it down a bit, leave the moderating to the moderators, and refrain from speculating about the identities that people may use on other blogs.

Preston Urka at 03:18 AM on 1 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Note to Moderator (I have to post here as SkS doesn't respond to emails)

I ask you to amend this post _michael sweet @196_ with an update to correct misinformation as future readers may not find a subsequent post correcting it. The misinformation is clearly a highly prejudicial statement which severely misleads any reader.

I ask you to leave his statement: "It would be illegal to build these plants in the USA or EU." so that future readers will be able to assess his care and attention in marshaling his arguments.

The update I suggest is the following:
With respect to the Barakah APR1400 reactors, the US NRC has found "VI. Issue Resolution A. The Commission has determined that the structures, systems, and components and design features of the APR1400 design comply with the provisions of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, and the applicable regulations identified in Section V of this appendix; and therefore, provide adequate protection to the health and safety of the public." - In other words, the reactors would be legal in the US.

ps - apologies for poor formatting of @204

Moderator Response:

[DB] Moderation complaints again snipped.

Preston Urka at 03:16 AM on 1 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

MA Rodger @197
Yes, it takes time to build an NPP (or any other power plant).

However - Unit 1 of the Barakah nuclear power plant in the Al Dhafrah region of Abu Dhabi has been connected to the grid and has begun supplying electricity to the UAE. 19 August 2020

John Hartz at 00:51 AM on 1 September 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Speaking of heat and nuclear power plants...

Climate change—particularly intense heat—is advancing so rapidly that it poses physical as well as credit risks to America’s aging nuclear fleet, a new report from Moody’s Investors Service finds.

“Our plants are fairly hardened to severe weather,” said David Kamran, a projects and infrastructure analyst at Moody’s and the lead author of the report. “But climate change is moving quickly.”

America’s nuclear power plants produce roughly 20% of the country’s electricity and represent more than half of all of its carbon-free power generation. After the earthquake and tsunami that caused a meltdown at Japan’s Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant in 2011, the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission asked domestic plants to conduct their own assessments of risks from climate change and other natural hazards. A 2019 Bloomberg review of correspondence between the commission and owners of 60 plants concerning those assessments found that 54 of their facilities weren’t designed to handle the flood risk they now face.

Nuclear Plants Face More Heat Risk Than They’re Prepared to Handle by Leslie Kaufman, Finance, Bloomberg News, Aug 19, 2020

gerontocrat at 21:15 PM on 31 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

This paper from 2014 states "Current rates of extinction are about 1000 times the background rate of extinction. These are higher than previously estimated and likely still underestimated"

LINK

_________________________________________

But for me the scariest figure comes from the 2018 WWF Living Planet Index 2018 report produced in association with the Zoological Society of London

"The main statistic from the report is the global LPI which shows a 60% decline between 1970 and 2014 (Figure 1). This means that, on average, animal populations are well under half the size they were in 1970."

https://livingplanetindex.org/projects?main_page_project=LivingPlanetReport&home_flag=1

This report is produced one every two years. I expect the 2020 report to be equally dismally distrurbing.

Moderator Response:

[RH] Shortened link.

Nogapspermitted at 20:21 PM on 31 August 2020

Climate TRACE to track real-time global carbon emissions

Very useful to be able to locate these global emitters, and it will be interesting to see with what accuracy the places and gases can be traced.

Preston Urka at 13:36 PM on 31 August 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

michael sweet @199 per your comment

"Nuclear supporters frequently claim data from 1999 to support nuclear in 2020. Here Preston Urka uses outdated and incomplete (and uncited) data. Previously he compared 2019 solar costs in the UAE to nuclear costs from 2009. It is easy to make something look good using outdated and incomplete data."

You just can't read the links and caveats can you?

I clearly state where my data came from - is it the best data - no, but it is what I had available. I note the discrepancies. Your comments really are not in the spirit of courteous discourse.

I note you also have used Wikipedia (in preference to IEA data no less! where the data is available!!!).

---

"Nuclear supporters like Preston Urka are claiming nuclear can supply a portion of electricity only. Electricity is only about 20% of all power."

First, the IEA disagrees with you about 20% of all power. I suggest you re-research that number. With electrification of industry, transport, etc this share will just increase.

Second, I will let you in on a secret - EV batteries work just as well on electricity from NPPs as from RE! - I know! Who knew???? It also turns out that other appliances and tools are the same. Amazing!

Third, nuclear produces a lot of heat.

Process heat is useful in industry.

About 70-90% of their total energy use is process heat.
Using process heat directly is more efficient than generating electricity and using electricity to generate heat.
Note there are no current cases, but the technology is engineering, not ground-breaking science.

Process heat can also be used to create synthetic fuels for transportation and agriculture (in addition to EV-type juice).
Process heat can be used directly in transportation.

The US Navy has the greenest submarines in the world!

I believe many on this website are Australian - you guys should stop buying those nasty, carbon-dioxide emitting diesels. The idea that you will convert a green French submarine into a dirty emissions scow is horrifying!

The Russians have green icebreakers!
Large cargo ships (currently burning bunker oil and accounting for 1-3% of global emissions) can easily be converted to nuclear - using existing military designs - or some of the newer micro reactors.

Wind? - no, no process heat from wind. Need to lose energy in converting electricity to heat.
Solar PV? - no, no process heat from solar PV. Need to lose energy in converting electricity to heat.
Solar CSP? - Yes, but solar CSP tends to be in sunny arid deserts. For example, one of the biggest US chemical plants is Dow Chemical in Midland, Michigan. It is not in a sunny desert, but a cloudy northern climate.

Pipe the coolant north! - a 1000 km from the Mohave to Midland? (Not sure on this distance michael sweet, better check me!) - not a great idea, efficiency-wise.
Move the plant south? - ok, but you just blew the carbon budget.
Close the old plant, and open a new southern plant? - ok, but you just blew the carbon budget.
Again, I believe this website has an Australian connection - How many 10MW+ Solar CSP plants are in Australia? Are any of 10MW+ solar CSP plants providing process heat to Australian industry? 1MW? - I mean 1MW is just a large diesel generator. And solar is soooooo cheap!

Lastly, nuclear process heat can go from 350 C to 1200 C - a huge range of industrial process (most of which start around 600).

Solar CSP - well, from 250 C to about 650 C - just where process heat starts going good.
ammonia starts at 400 C
glass starts at 500 C
cement starts at 800 C
thermo-electrolysis to produce hydrogen at 850 C
aluminum starts at 940 C
silica glass starts at 1000 C

Lastly, I have never claimed, in this forum, any other forum, or in person that nuclear can supply electricity only.

Moderator Response:

[DB] Off-topic, sloganeering and empty rhetoric snipped.

Preston Urka at 12:54 PM on 31 August 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

I use the data I can get ahold of; (easily accessible) IEA data goes out to 2017/2018.

	total energy	electricity and heat only
Germany	8.2	3.6	36% non-hydro renewables; 13% nuclear
Europe	5.9	2.1	Europe, not the EU
Denmark	5.5	1.5	62% non-hydro renewables; 0% nuclea
Sweden	3.6	0.7	21% non-hydro renewables; 49% nuclear
France	4.4	0.5	10% non-hydro renewables; 86% nuclear

As we can see, Danish total energy emissions per capita is slightly lower than Europe. I clearly stated Europe (not the EU) and I clearly stated per capita numbers, not absolute. I clearly stated IEA data and the dates.

When car-crazy France has 1.5 tons per capita less total emissions (than the European average) and bicycle-loving Denmark only 0.4 tons less - yeah - it is slightly lower. So MA Rodger - I am not 'badly wrong'.

Danish E&H is better, but really not comparable to Sweden (a third! of the European average) or France (a quarter! of the European average).

Danish per capita emissions in E&H (where Wind/Solar/Nuclear currently compete) are blown out of the water by Sweden (under half! of Danish emissions) and France (a third! of Danish emissions). Germany is left in the dust on both measures of emissions.

2017-2018 IEA data
total is the cross-sector emissions in t/capita

https://www.iea.org/countries/Germany
https://www.iea.org/countries/europe
https://www.iea.org/countries/Denmark
https://www.iea.org/countries/Sweden
https://www.iea.org/countries/France

Doug Bostrom at 03:45 AM on 31 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

Per gseattle's question, a casual search finds that Thunberg's Twitter feed of early last year references a draft report from IPBES.

You can find IPBES and a complete description of methods and practice here:

https://ipbes.net/

The document is here:

https://ipbes.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/ipbes_global_assessment_report_summary_for_policymakers_en.pdf

In that we read:

An average of around 25 per cent of species in assessed animal and plant
groups are threatened (Figure SPM.3), suggesting that around 1 million species already face extinction, many within decades, unless action is taken to reduce the intensity of drivers of biodiversity loss. Without such action, there will be a further acceleration in the global rate of species extinction, which is already at least tens to hundreds of times higher than it has averaged over the past 10 million years.

I've not gone to the full report to see if any of the underlying material specifically establishes a numeric loss rate but it seems a matter of simple arithmetic to produce the number Thunberg mentions.

The "1996-1997" conjecture as to Thunberg's figure sourcing isn't accurate and isn't even a particularly good rhetorical tactic. Given the time needed to assemble the spurious list leading up to that, surely energy could be better spent?

MA Rodger at 23:33 PM on 30 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

gseattle @1,

I would recommend Google Scholar where a few searches will surely throw up some of the literature, which of course will yield further references & on Google Scholar a list of papers citing any 'finds'.

I note Pimm et al (2014) 'The biodiversity of species and their rates of extinction, distribution, and protection' who calculate current rates of extinction of known species in terms of extinctions per million species per year. Note that the number of species is a problem (there are perhaps 8.7 million terrestrial species) and that the cause of a recorded extinction is not always AGW which has been running for a far shorter period than the extinction data. So digging out a global number relevant to today's AGW will not be a simple 'look-up' in the appropriate bit of literature. Best of luck.

gseattle at 22:23 PM on 30 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35

A cornerstone of Greta's message is the extinction of "up to 200 species going extinct every single day" as in her climate change TEDx talk (at 4 min). Elsewhere this is often "150 to 200 species". There may be over 130,000 web pages expressing up to 200 species per day going extinct from climate change if this search using quotes (to require each term) is really indicative of it: "climate" "200 species" "extinct" "day".

So, the source of the information should be available as a peer reviewed paper. These are related results of research, the best science of the day by the most prestigious scientific experts in the field, and it's all I have so far.

Does anyone know how to check whether the items that are scientific papers were peer reviewed? And/or by whom? Also does anyone know the source of the 200 species figure by Greta Thunberg? I imagine it was around 1996-1997 by some famous scientists. Do appreciate any help.

2004, UN Environment Programme, TUNZA for YOUTH
... "It is estimated that between 150 and 200 species become extinct every day"
... No citation or reference. Page removed in 2009.
1997, , , http://encyclopedia.uia.org/en/problem/142901
... "150 to 200 species"
... "World Bank and Worldwatch Institute, and reported to the Rio+5 conference in 1997, estimated 150 to 200 species of life become extinct every 24 hours"
1997, J. John Sepkoski, Jr., Biodiversity: Past, Present, and Future,
... "range to 150 species etinctions per day (Ehrlich and Wilson, 1991)" [extinctions typo in paper],
... although Sepkoski adds "[total species] figure is misleading, however, because no official list of described species exists"
1991, PAUL R. EHRLICH, EDWARD 0. WILSON, Biodiversity Studies: Science and Policy
... no mention of extinctions per day as Sepkoski said.
1989, WV Reid K Miller, Keeping options alive: the scientific basis for conserving biodiversity
... "potential loss of" ... "50 to 150 species per day". Contains "climate change" 27 times.
1989, WALTER V. REID, How many species will there be?
... "potential loss of" ... "50 to 150 species per day". Included in a larger IUCN report containing "climate change" 11 times.
... "An estimated 25 percent of the world's species present in the mid-1980s may be extinct by the year 2015".
1988, E.O. Wilson, Harvard University, Biodiversity
... "By the end of this century [year 2000], our planet could lose anywhere from 20 to 50% of its species (Table 6–1)"

MA Rodger at 19:08 PM on 30 August 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

The carbon-intensity of the EU countries mentioned @198 are shown here for 1990-2016. The Danish numbers would be significantly lower by 2019 due to increasing wind-generation, perhaps down to 111gCO2/kWh which is a lot lower than the EU average (which itself is falling, perhaps 250gCO2/kWh by 2018). Thus, even if Danmark is a bigger user of electricity per capita relative to the EU average, portraying the Danish generation as just "slightly lower" is badly wrong.

michael sweet at 08:18 AM on 30 August 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Preston Urka:

In 2019 nuclear power generated only 40% of Swedens electricity. Nuclear electricity production in Sweden has declined from about 70 TWh in 1999 to around 60 TWh in 2017. source In 2019 they generated about 20 TWh by wind and solar up from 17 TWh in 2017. Their nuclear plants are old and no new plants are planned.

In Denmark 47% of electricity was generated by wind in 2019. That is significantly more than nuclear in Sweden and is increasing instead of decreasing. Perhaps you need to update your list to 2019.

Nuclear supporters frequently claim data from 1999 to support nuclear in 2020. Here Preston Urka uses outdated and incomplete (and uncited) data. Previously he compared 2019 solar costs in the UAE to nuclear costs from 2009. It is easy to make something look good using outdated and incomplete data.

France has announced their plan to increase renewable energy. Their nuclear plants are at the end of their life and replacement units are not planned. Nuclear power is declining year over year while renewable energy is increasing. source

Plans like Connelly et al 2016 and Jacobson et al 2018 are for All Power used to run the entire economy. Nuclear supporters like Preston Urka are claiming nuclear can supply a portion of electricity only. Electricity is only about 20% of all power.

Preston Urka at 06:34 AM on 30 August 2020

Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?

Nuclear power has capital construction costs which are too high and build times which are too long. However, as mere finance and project management problems, these are addressable issues - these are not scientifically untractable problems such as intermittency.

There are 3 types of countries/regions that have low-carbon (per capita emissions far below world or European averages) electricity grids:

the lucky - Due to geography they have a high percentage of dispatchable hydro and geothermal.

Examples: Costa Rica, Iceland, Norway

Nuclear - Due to vision and effort they have a high percentage of dispatchable nuclear.

Examples: France, Sweden, Ontario

Intermittent Renewables - Still waiting for an example.

(honorable mention) Denmark at 65% intermittent RE has slightly lower than the European average in per capita emissions (but 2-3x higher than France or Sweden).

(dishonorable mention) Germany at 37% intermittent RE has one of the highest per capita emissions (nearly 2x higher than the European average, 4-6x higher than France).

Therefore, while nuclear may be require more construction capital to build, it provides a lot more low-carbon value than 'cheap' electricity (Do Germany or Denmark even have cheap electricity?).

Therefore, while nuclear may take a long time to build, it actually delivers low-carbon emissions savings.

bf at 03:44 AM on 30 August 2020

Climate change is causing more rapid intensification of Atlantic hurricanes

Regarding intensification, don't forget Patricia in 2015, which was on the west coast of Mexico - tropical storm to Category 5 in 24 hours, and it had winds to 215 mph at its peak. Luckily, it was -only- 150mph at landfall, and didn't hit any large cities.

Eclectic at 22:03 PM on 25 August 2020

It's satellite microwave transmissions

Chan-c @31 ,

Wikipedia can give you some information. Also, read the article at the head of this page. The flow of human-caused microwave/radio energy striking the Earth's surface is microscopically small compared the total radiational energy coming from the sun. And most of the sun's energy reaching Earth is ultraviolet & visible light & shortwave infra-red (shorter than 5 micron wavelength). In comparison, the sun's radio output is extremely tiny.

Secondly, have a look at the microwave frequencies absorbed by water (for example, as found in the kitchen microwave oven). Penetration into soil - which always has traces of water - is a matter of a few centimetres only. This will not reach down to "underground water". Perhaps you are thinking of traditional "hot springs" and other very hot underground water ~ but all such hot water is warmed by the heat conducted upwards from the molten interior of the planet.

Chan c at 16:57 PM on 25 August 2020

It's satellite microwave transmissions

Soooo i guess tall can imagine what brought me here...

How would i check to see if an area is being hit with some sort of radio or otherwise wavelengths to heat up water underground. I have a equalizer of sorts for a radio system i have a. Satellites dish and basically anything else a mechanic might have. If you could help narrow down the frequencies i need to check and way that i could check....may dielectric heating

MA Rodger at 06:32 AM on 24 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #34

slcochran @1,

While there have been many statements made about the timing of the first ice-free summer up in the Arctic Ocean, the prediction of 2040 +/-10 years remains (although the IPO has been cited as a reason for it being earlier rather than later within that range).

Dramatic stuff is happening to the sea ice which is in terminal decline but it is worth considering the full set of data before getting carried away and proclaiming it "is going to disappear sooner than even the earliest predicted date." Open water & melt ponds at the North Pole have been observed for some years now (eg here from 10 years ago).

Consider this year's melt season which followed on from a freeze-up which was a little stronger than the previous few years - the 2020 melt season has been pretty dramatic with the Sea Ice Extent showing record breaking values through July yet the low SIE was not matched by such dramatic Sea Ice Area data which has only fleetingly managed record-breaking status. And the PIOMAS models of Sea Ice Volume show nothing record-breaking so far. Latest comparative PIOMAS values (for mid-Auguat) run:-

2012 ... 4.75M cu km

2019 ... 4.88M cu km

2020 ... 5.14M cu km

2017 ... 5.31M cu km

Of course, this is all dramatic stuff (the average 1979-2001 was three-times greater at 15M cu km) but the progress towards an ice-free summer Arctic Ocean is slow and still years away from being delivered. And even if it is now inevitable (as the Barants Observer says it is), that is no reason to slacken our efforts pushing for some rapid & long-overdue AGW mitigation measures. We certainly need something dramatic mitigation-wise to match the dramatic AGW we are already responsible for.

slcochran at 05:14 AM on 24 August 2020

2020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #34

Worst possible report: open water and melt ponds at the North Pole- the polar ice cap is going to disappear sooner than even the earliest predicted date. We're not going to cook the planet (and our survivability), we are already doing it. We are way past the time for preventative measures, we can only hope to ameliorate the destuctive consequences of global warming.

Nogapspermitted at 13:41 PM on 23 August 2020

Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies

Yes, that link does show how this company has developed a way to recycle the glassfibre into reusable beads for many further uses. I’m sure their initiative will be amply rewarded financially, as it should be, for beginning to solve a problem that was for a long time just ignored.

nigelj at 08:35 AM on 23 August 2020

Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies

Larry Smallwood @1

"Today's widely used wind turbine construction materials are NOT recyclable nor conducive to a healthy environmentally sensitive present and future"

I appreciate your concerns but this is wrong, and just an assertion. Most wind towers have fibreglass blades but at least one company is recycling these by grinding them up for use in composite wall boards and similar products as below. So they can be recycled. Its not easy but they are making it work. I suggest it could be expanded rapidly with some sort of government incentive like a small tax break or a similar device.

resource-recycling.com/plastics/2019/03/27/company-expands-wind-turbine-recycling-operation/

Its also possible to make the blades from aluminium, which can be recycled. And the wind towers and generators are made of things like steel and aluminium and copper and we know those can be recycled from past experience.

Its even possible to make the blades out of timber, from what Ive read, which is probably the most sustainable material of all, but obviously this would be labour intensive with all those curves.

And yeah, don't make the perfect the enemy of the good as others say.

I agree with your comments and concerns about business investment.

Bob Loblaw at 01:15 AM on 23 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

Keep in mind that even if current electricity production is based on fossil fuels, it is probably easier in the next 30 years to replace electricity generation capacity with non-fossil-fuel-based systems than it is to convert tens or hundreds of thousands of gas furnances in individual houses to electrical heating.

We used to live in Saskatchewan, and looked seriously at ground source heat pumps to replace our old, inefficient gas furnace, Retrofitting, as opposed to build new, represents a huge extra cost. And because of Saskatchewan's heavy use of fossil fuels for eletricity generation, federal goverment incentives to install heat pumps and such were not offered in Saskatchewan. We went back to gas, but at least forked out for 96% efficiency. Our gas consumption was cut roughly in half (as we did other efficiency improvements as well as the furnace).

Ground source heat pumps make a huge difference in electricity consumption, but at high initial capital cost. It is another heating method th at is much easier to install when a house is built than it is to retrofit.

Many home owners do not want the extra cost of energy efficiency features on a new house, if they don't plan to stay for 10-20 years. This is where building codes are really needed (insulation levels, heating efficeincy, etc.)

We now live in Ontario, which has large nuclear and hydro capacity. I believe the former Liberal government had plans to not allow fossil fuel heating sources in new construction at some point in the future. The current Conservative government tends to not share the same ideals, though.

Here is the diagram for Ontario, from the same source as the previous charts.

Ontario electricity generation by fuel source

One Planet Only Forever at 01:05 AM on 23 August 2020

Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies

Larry Smallwood,

I fully support awareness of the need for everything that humans do to be Governed by the pursuit of Sustainable Development. That includes correcting unsustainable and harmful activities that were incorrectly allowed to develop popularity and profitability, and especially forcing the rapid ending of actions that powerful wealthy people harmfully incorrectly prolonged through misleading claim-making that delayed the development of the required corrections.

So I question the imposition of High Standards of Sustainability on actions to replace harmful unsustainable activities that have incorrectly remained popular and profitable.

Keeping sustainability in mind the alternative to not building wind turbines unless they are completely sustainable (not harmful, not unsustainably consuming materials) is to stop all activity that uses generated energy that is more harmful and less sustainable. All the other ways of getting artificial energy have impacts.

So it is clearly absurd to demand the high standard for the replacement of unsustainable ways of living. What needs to be understood is that the unsustainable harmful ways of living that have developed need to be ended. Hopefully that will be by being replaced by more sustainable, but potentially more expensive, ways of doing things. But the most important understanding is that if the more expensive more sustainable ways of doing the activity are not liked then the activity needs to be ended no matter how popular or profitable it has become.

People cannot be allowed the freedom to enjoy a Better Personal Present in ways that negatively affect the attempts by Others to Develop the Gift of a Sustainable Improving future for humanity. Many people enamored by westernized consumption-based capitalism struggle to understand that essential Governing principle. That understanding of the need to responsibly self-govern and be less harmful and more helpful really bothers people who were indoctrinated in the fatally flawed belief that it is best for people to be freer to believe whatever they want and do whatever they please.

Freedom Governed by the pursuit of expanded awareness and improved understanding applied to achieve and improve on the Sustainable Development Goals is what is required. And it is harder work that the alternatives.

Larry Smallwood at 22:18 PM on 22 August 2020

Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies

So long as wind turbines are the built in mind of the most advanced and long lasting environmentally recyclable building materials known to mankind. Today's widely used wind turbine construction materials are NOT recyclable nor conducive to a healthy environmentally sensitive present and future; compounded by typical two-year economic investment/return business cycles that at the epicentre, driving deafening climate change disaster.

michael sweet at 20:02 PM on 22 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

OPOF:

Bob Loblaw's point is well taken. Heating new construction using fossil electricity does not help much compared to using fossil natural gas.

Taking the long view, if electricity is used now than in 10 years when more renewable electricity is produced buildings using electricity will automatically release less carbon. Those buildings on natural gas will require expensive retrofitting to reduce carbon emissions.

I think the argument that natural gas makes a good bridge fuel is mostly made by natural gas producers. People who want to reduce carbon support buiding more renewable energy systems.

I agree that building out renewables as rapidly as possible makes the most sense.

Making electromethane using fossil fueled electricity does not make sense. You have to first convert the electricity system to renewable energy before you start large scale electroconversions. In general, it takes much less energy to do work using electricity than to do the same work using electrofuels. Electrofuels only make sense for things like airplanes and marine transport that are very difficult to electrify. Heating a home with electromethane would require 10 times more primary energy than heating the same home using electricity.

One Planet Only Forever at 08:47 AM on 22 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

micheal sweet,

I understand that the article just focused on the aspect of natural gas use related to home heating and appliances like stoves.

The more generalized understanding is what I was bringing up. It relates to the incorrect belief taht natural gas use for heat and cooking is OK because that is the sales pich claiming an answer to climate change is natural gas use. And as Bob Loblaw has correctly pointed out the electric alternative to natural gas is questionable because it depends on how the electricity is generated. Probably better to keep the gas burning in homes until the renewables are on-line than to make electricity by burning gas then using it in homes to do the same things.

However, converting coal burning power plants to gas burning power plants is only complicated because of the changes of who makes money and what type of work is done to fuel it. Mind you now it is probaly better to just ramp up the pace of renewables in most locations.

nigelj at 07:07 AM on 22 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

The Guardian article mentioned that attempts to get rid of gas connections were resisted by multiple parties, so gas suppliers, plumbers and trade unions and home owners. Its possibly an example of well intended but an unrealistic strategy.

It might be better to push for electromethane, which is carbon neutral, and can use the existing piped network and gas heaters, and would get less resistance from plumbing lobbies and trade unions and consumers. However its presumably more expensive than natural gas so would still get resistance from gas suppliers, but maybe easier than trying to ban gas connections. It would probably come down to the size of the price difference between electromethane and natural gas. If its small, people might accept it for the sake of environmental values.

Bob Loblaw at 05:41 AM on 22 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

Moving to electricity for heat depends hugely on how that electricity is generated. In Canada, Alberta and Sasatchewan both make heavy use of coal and other fossil fuels:

Alberta: 91% fossil fuels, of which 43% is coal.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/nrgsstmprfls/ab-eng.html

Alberta electricity production by fuel type

Saskatchewan: 83% from fossil fuels, 40% from coal

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/nrgsstmprfls/sk-eng.html

Saskatchewan electricity generation by fuel source

Nationally, Canada has a very different picture:

Canada electricity generation by fuel source

No prizes awarded for guessing which provinces have the largest number of people that are against things like carbon taxes or other actions to deal with GHG emissions.

michael sweet at 03:15 AM on 22 August 2020

Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020

OPOF:

THe article in The Guardian did not discuss power plants. As I understand it, the argument about power plants is complicated.

The Guardian talked about cities making it illegal to connect new buildings to existing gas lines (or building new gas lines for new buildings). In the USA gas is currently very cheap. It is used in many locations for heating, cooking and heating water. If it is illegal to connect new buildings to the gas lines than those buildings will have to use electricity instead. That will be easy to convert to renewable electricity. It is expensive to convert buildings on gas lines to electricity.

Gas has been cheap in the USA due to a large supply from fracking. A lot of fracking companies will go bankrupt from Covid and the fact that they never make money. It will be interesting to see if gas prices in the USA go up to global prices. Renewable energy is already cheaper than gas in most of the USA.

John Hartz at 02:23 AM on 22 August 2020

We've been having the wrong debate about nuclear energy

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