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Preston Urka at 03:18 AM on 1 September 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Note to Moderator (I have to post here as SkS doesn't respond to emails)
I ask you to amend this post _michael sweet @196_ with an update to correct misinformation as future readers may not find a subsequent post correcting it. The misinformation is clearly a highly prejudicial statement which severely misleads any reader.
I ask you to leave his statement: "It would be illegal to build these plants in the USA or EU." so that future readers will be able to assess his care and attention in marshaling his arguments.
The update I suggest is the following:
With respect to the Barakah APR1400 reactors, the US NRC has found "VI. Issue Resolution A. The Commission has determined that the structures, systems, and components and design features of the APR1400 design comply with the provisions of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended, and the applicable regulations identified in Section V of this appendix; and therefore, provide adequate protection to the health and safety of the public." - In other words, the reactors would be legal in the US.ps - apologies for poor formatting of @204
Moderator Response:[DB] Moderation complaints again snipped.
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Preston Urka at 03:16 AM on 1 September 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
MA Rodger @197
Yes, it takes time to build an NPP (or any other power plant). -
John Hartz at 00:51 AM on 1 September 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Speaking of heat and nuclear power plants...
Climate change—particularly intense heat—is advancing so rapidly that it poses physical as well as credit risks to America’s aging nuclear fleet, a new report from Moody’s Investors Service finds.
“Our plants are fairly hardened to severe weather,” said David Kamran, a projects and infrastructure analyst at Moody’s and the lead author of the report. “But climate change is moving quickly.”
America’s nuclear power plants produce roughly 20% of the country’s electricity and represent more than half of all of its carbon-free power generation. After the earthquake and tsunami that caused a meltdown at Japan’s Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear power plant in 2011, the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission asked domestic plants to conduct their own assessments of risks from climate change and other natural hazards. A 2019 Bloomberg review of correspondence between the commission and owners of 60 plants concerning those assessments found that 54 of their facilities weren’t designed to handle the flood risk they now face.
Nuclear Plants Face More Heat Risk Than They’re Prepared to Handle by Leslie Kaufman, Finance, Bloomberg News, Aug 19, 2020
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gerontocrat at 21:15 PM on 31 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35
This paper from 2014 states "Current rates of extinction are about 1000 times the background rate of extinction. These are higher than previously estimated and likely still underestimated"
_________________________________________
But for me the scariest figure comes from the 2018 WWF Living Planet Index 2018 report produced in association with the Zoological Society of London
"The main statistic from the report is the global LPI which shows a 60% decline between 1970 and 2014 (Figure 1). This means that, on average, animal populations are well under half the size they were in 1970."
https://livingplanetindex.org/projects?main_page_project=LivingPlanetReport&home_flag=1
This report is produced one every two years. I expect the 2020 report to be equally dismally distrurbing.
Moderator Response:[RH] Shortened link.
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Nogapspermitted at 20:21 PM on 31 August 2020Climate TRACE to track real-time global carbon emissions
Very useful to be able to locate these global emitters, and it will be interesting to see with what accuracy the places and gases can be traced.
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Preston Urka at 13:36 PM on 31 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
michael sweet @199 per your comment
"Nuclear supporters frequently claim data from 1999 to support nuclear in 2020. Here Preston Urka uses outdated and incomplete (and uncited) data. Previously he compared 2019 solar costs in the UAE to nuclear costs from 2009. It is easy to make something look good using outdated and incomplete data."
You just can't read the links and caveats can you?
I clearly state where my data came from - is it the best data - no, but it is what I had available. I note the discrepancies. Your comments really are not in the spirit of courteous discourse.
I note you also have used Wikipedia (in preference to IEA data no less! where the data is available!!!).
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"Nuclear supporters like Preston Urka are claiming nuclear can supply a portion of electricity only. Electricity is only about 20% of all power."
First, the IEA disagrees with you about 20% of all power. I suggest you re-research that number. With electrification of industry, transport, etc this share will just increase.
Second, I will let you in on a secret - EV batteries work just as well on electricity from NPPs as from RE! - I know! Who knew???? It also turns out that other appliances and tools are the same. Amazing!
Third, nuclear produces a lot of heat.
- Process heat is useful in industry.
- About 70-90% of their total energy use is process heat.
- Using process heat directly is more efficient than generating electricity and using electricity to generate heat.
- Note there are no current cases, but the technology is engineering, not ground-breaking science.
- Process heat can also be used to create synthetic fuels for transportation and agriculture (in addition to EV-type juice).
- Process heat can be used directly in transportation.
- The US Navy has the greenest submarines in the world!
- I believe many on this website are Australian - you guys should stop buying those nasty, carbon-dioxide emitting diesels. The idea that you will convert a green French submarine into a dirty emissions scow is horrifying!
- The Russians have green icebreakers!
- Large cargo ships (currently burning bunker oil and accounting for 1-3% of global emissions) can easily be converted to nuclear - using existing military designs - or some of the newer micro reactors.
- Wind? - no, no process heat from wind. Need to lose energy in converting electricity to heat.
- Solar PV? - no, no process heat from solar PV. Need to lose energy in converting electricity to heat.
- Solar CSP? - Yes, but solar CSP tends to be in sunny arid deserts. For example, one of the biggest US chemical plants is Dow Chemical in Midland, Michigan. It is not in a sunny desert, but a cloudy northern climate.
- Pipe the coolant north! - a 1000 km from the Mohave to Midland? (Not sure on this distance michael sweet, better check me!) - not a great idea, efficiency-wise.
- Move the plant south? - ok, but you just blew the carbon budget.
- Close the old plant, and open a new southern plant? - ok, but you just blew the carbon budget.
- Again, I believe this website has an Australian connection - How many 10MW+ Solar CSP plants are in Australia? Are any of 10MW+ solar CSP plants providing process heat to Australian industry? 1MW? - I mean 1MW is just a large diesel generator. And solar is soooooo cheap!
- Lastly, nuclear process heat can go from 350 C to 1200 C - a huge range of industrial process (most of which start around 600).
- Solar CSP - well, from 250 C to about 650 C - just where process heat starts going good.
- ammonia starts at 400 C
- glass starts at 500 C
- cement starts at 800 C
- thermo-electrolysis to produce hydrogen at 850 C
- aluminum starts at 940 C
- silica glass starts at 1000 C
Lastly, I have never claimed, in this forum, any other forum, or in person that nuclear can supply electricity only.
Moderator Response:[DB] Off-topic, sloganeering and empty rhetoric snipped.
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Preston Urka at 12:54 PM on 31 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
I use the data I can get ahold of; (easily accessible) IEA data goes out to 2017/2018.
total energy electricity and heat only Germany 8.2 3.6 36% non-hydro renewables; 13% nuclear Europe 5.9 2.1 Europe, not the EU Denmark 5.5 1.5 62% non-hydro renewables; 0% nuclea Sweden 3.6 0.7 21% non-hydro renewables; 49% nuclear France 4.4 0.5 10% non-hydro renewables; 86% nuclear As we can see, Danish total energy emissions per capita is slightly lower than Europe. I clearly stated Europe (not the EU) and I clearly stated per capita numbers, not absolute. I clearly stated IEA data and the dates.
When car-crazy France has 1.5 tons per capita less total emissions (than the European average) and bicycle-loving Denmark only 0.4 tons less - yeah - it is slightly lower. So MA Rodger - I am not 'badly wrong'.
Danish E&H is better, but really not comparable to Sweden (a third! of the European average) or France (a quarter! of the European average).
Danish per capita emissions in E&H (where Wind/Solar/Nuclear currently compete) are blown out of the water by Sweden (under half! of Danish emissions) and France (a third! of Danish emissions). Germany is left in the dust on both measures of emissions.
2017-2018 IEA data
total is the cross-sector emissions in t/capita- https://www.iea.org/countries/Germany
- https://www.iea.org/countries/europe
- https://www.iea.org/countries/Denmark
- https://www.iea.org/countries/Sweden
- https://www.iea.org/countries/France
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Doug Bostrom at 03:45 AM on 31 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35
Per gseattle's question, a casual search finds that Thunberg's Twitter feed of early last year references a draft report from IPBES.
You can find IPBES and a complete description of methods and practice here:
https://ipbes.net/
The document is here:
https://ipbes.net/sites/default/files/2020-02/ipbes_global_assessment_report_summary_for_policymakers_en.pdf
In that we read:
An average of around 25 per cent of species in assessed animal and plant
groups are threatened (Figure SPM.3), suggesting that around 1 million species already face extinction, many within decades, unless action is taken to reduce the intensity of drivers of biodiversity loss. Without such action, there will be a further acceleration in the global rate of species extinction, which is already at least tens to hundreds of times higher than it has averaged over the past 10 million years.I've not gone to the full report to see if any of the underlying material specifically establishes a numeric loss rate but it seems a matter of simple arithmetic to produce the number Thunberg mentions.
The "1996-1997" conjecture as to Thunberg's figure sourcing isn't accurate and isn't even a particularly good rhetorical tactic. Given the time needed to assemble the spurious list leading up to that, surely energy could be better spent?
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MA Rodger at 23:33 PM on 30 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35
gseattle @1,
I would recommend Google Scholar where a few searches will surely throw up some of the literature, which of course will yield further references & on Google Scholar a list of papers citing any 'finds'.
I note Pimm et al (2014) 'The biodiversity of species and their rates of extinction, distribution, and protection' who calculate current rates of extinction of known species in terms of extinctions per million species per year. Note that the number of species is a problem (there are perhaps 8.7 million terrestrial species) and that the cause of a recorded extinction is not always AGW which has been running for a far shorter period than the extinction data. So digging out a global number relevant to today's AGW will not be a simple 'look-up' in the appropriate bit of literature. Best of luck.
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gseattle at 22:23 PM on 30 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #35
A cornerstone of Greta's message is the extinction of "up to 200 species going extinct every single day" as in her climate change TEDx talk (at 4 min). Elsewhere this is often "150 to 200 species". There may be over 130,000 web pages expressing up to 200 species per day going extinct from climate change if this search using quotes (to require each term) is really indicative of it: "climate" "200 species" "extinct" "day".
So, the source of the information should be available as a peer reviewed paper. These are related results of research, the best science of the day by the most prestigious scientific experts in the field, and it's all I have so far.
Does anyone know how to check whether the items that are scientific papers were peer reviewed? And/or by whom? Also does anyone know the source of the 200 species figure by Greta Thunberg? I imagine it was around 1996-1997 by some famous scientists. Do appreciate any help.
2004, UN Environment Programme, TUNZA for YOUTH
... "It is estimated that between 150 and 200 species become extinct every day"
... No citation or reference. Page removed in 2009.
1997, , , http://encyclopedia.uia.org/en/problem/142901
... "150 to 200 species"
... "World Bank and Worldwatch Institute, and reported to the Rio+5 conference in 1997, estimated 150 to 200 species of life become extinct every 24 hours"
1997, J. John Sepkoski, Jr., Biodiversity: Past, Present, and Future,
... "range to 150 species etinctions per day (Ehrlich and Wilson, 1991)" [extinctions typo in paper],
... although Sepkoski adds "[total species] figure is misleading, however, because no official list of described species exists"
1991, PAUL R. EHRLICH, EDWARD 0. WILSON, Biodiversity Studies: Science and Policy
... no mention of extinctions per day as Sepkoski said.
1989, WV Reid K Miller, Keeping options alive: the scientific basis for conserving biodiversity
... "potential loss of" ... "50 to 150 species per day". Contains "climate change" 27 times.
1989, WALTER V. REID, How many species will there be?
... "potential loss of" ... "50 to 150 species per day". Included in a larger IUCN report containing "climate change" 11 times.
... "An estimated 25 percent of the world's species present in the mid-1980s may be extinct by the year 2015".
1988, E.O. Wilson, Harvard University, Biodiversity
... "By the end of this century [year 2000], our planet could lose anywhere from 20 to 50% of its species (Table 6–1)" -
MA Rodger at 19:08 PM on 30 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
The carbon-intensity of the EU countries mentioned @198 are shown here for 1990-2016. The Danish numbers would be significantly lower by 2019 due to increasing wind-generation, perhaps down to 111gCO2/kWh which is a lot lower than the EU average (which itself is falling, perhaps 250gCO2/kWh by 2018). Thus, even if Danmark is a bigger user of electricity per capita relative to the EU average, portraying the Danish generation as just "slightly lower" is badly wrong.
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michael sweet at 08:18 AM on 30 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Preston Urka:
In 2019 nuclear power generated only 40% of Swedens electricity. Nuclear electricity production in Sweden has declined from about 70 TWh in 1999 to around 60 TWh in 2017. source In 2019 they generated about 20 TWh by wind and solar up from 17 TWh in 2017. Their nuclear plants are old and no new plants are planned.
In Denmark 47% of electricity was generated by wind in 2019. That is significantly more than nuclear in Sweden and is increasing instead of decreasing. Perhaps you need to update your list to 2019.
Nuclear supporters frequently claim data from 1999 to support nuclear in 2020. Here Preston Urka uses outdated and incomplete (and uncited) data. Previously he compared 2019 solar costs in the UAE to nuclear costs from 2009. It is easy to make something look good using outdated and incomplete data.
France has announced their plan to increase renewable energy. Their nuclear plants are at the end of their life and replacement units are not planned. Nuclear power is declining year over year while renewable energy is increasing. source
Plans like Connelly et al 2016 and Jacobson et al 2018 are for All Power used to run the entire economy. Nuclear supporters like Preston Urka are claiming nuclear can supply a portion of electricity only. Electricity is only about 20% of all power.
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Preston Urka at 06:34 AM on 30 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Nuclear power has capital construction costs which are too high and build times which are too long. However, as mere finance and project management problems, these are addressable issues - these are not scientifically untractable problems such as intermittency.
There are 3 types of countries/regions that have low-carbon (per capita emissions far below world or European averages) electricity grids:
the lucky - Due to geography they have a high percentage of dispatchable hydro and geothermal.
Examples: Costa Rica, Iceland, Norway
Nuclear - Due to vision and effort they have a high percentage of dispatchable nuclear.
Examples: France, Sweden, Ontario
Intermittent Renewables - Still waiting for an example.
(honorable mention) Denmark at 65% intermittent RE has slightly lower than the European average in per capita emissions (but 2-3x higher than France or Sweden).
(dishonorable mention) Germany at 37% intermittent RE has one of the highest per capita emissions (nearly 2x higher than the European average, 4-6x higher than France).
Therefore, while nuclear may be require more construction capital to build, it provides a lot more low-carbon value than 'cheap' electricity (Do Germany or Denmark even have cheap electricity?).
Therefore, while nuclear may take a long time to build, it actually delivers low-carbon emissions savings.
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Climate change is causing more rapid intensification of Atlantic hurricanes
Regarding intensification, don't forget Patricia in 2015, which was on the west coast of Mexico - tropical storm to Category 5 in 24 hours, and it had winds to 215 mph at its peak. Luckily, it was -only- 150mph at landfall, and didn't hit any large cities.
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Eclectic at 22:03 PM on 25 August 2020It's satellite microwave transmissions
Chan-c @31 ,
Wikipedia can give you some information. Also, read the article at the head of this page. The flow of human-caused microwave/radio energy striking the Earth's surface is microscopically small compared the total radiational energy coming from the sun. And most of the sun's energy reaching Earth is ultraviolet & visible light & shortwave infra-red (shorter than 5 micron wavelength). In comparison, the sun's radio output is extremely tiny.
Secondly, have a look at the microwave frequencies absorbed by water (for example, as found in the kitchen microwave oven). Penetration into soil - which always has traces of water - is a matter of a few centimetres only. This will not reach down to "underground water". Perhaps you are thinking of traditional "hot springs" and other very hot underground water ~ but all such hot water is warmed by the heat conducted upwards from the molten interior of the planet.
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Chan c at 16:57 PM on 25 August 2020It's satellite microwave transmissions
Soooo i guess tall can imagine what brought me here...
How would i check to see if an area is being hit with some sort of radio or otherwise wavelengths to heat up water underground. I have a equalizer of sorts for a radio system i have a. Satellites dish and basically anything else a mechanic might have. If you could help narrow down the frequencies i need to check and way that i could check....may dielectric heating
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MA Rodger at 06:32 AM on 24 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #34
slcochran @1,
While there have been many statements made about the timing of the first ice-free summer up in the Arctic Ocean, the prediction of 2040 +/-10 years remains (although the IPO has been cited as a reason for it being earlier rather than later within that range).
Dramatic stuff is happening to the sea ice which is in terminal decline but it is worth considering the full set of data before getting carried away and proclaiming it "is going to disappear sooner than even the earliest predicted date." Open water & melt ponds at the North Pole have been observed for some years now (eg here from 10 years ago).
Consider this year's melt season which followed on from a freeze-up which was a little stronger than the previous few years - the 2020 melt season has been pretty dramatic with the Sea Ice Extent showing record breaking values through July yet the low SIE was not matched by such dramatic Sea Ice Area data which has only fleetingly managed record-breaking status. And the PIOMAS models of Sea Ice Volume show nothing record-breaking so far. Latest comparative PIOMAS values (for mid-Auguat) run:-
2012 ... 4.75M cu km
2019 ... 4.88M cu km
2020 ... 5.14M cu km
2017 ... 5.31M cu km
Of course, this is all dramatic stuff (the average 1979-2001 was three-times greater at 15M cu km) but the progress towards an ice-free summer Arctic Ocean is slow and still years away from being delivered. And even if it is now inevitable (as the Barants Observer says it is), that is no reason to slacken our efforts pushing for some rapid & long-overdue AGW mitigation measures. We certainly need something dramatic mitigation-wise to match the dramatic AGW we are already responsible for.
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slcochran at 05:14 AM on 24 August 20202020 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #34
Worst possible report: open water and melt ponds at the North Pole- the polar ice cap is going to disappear sooner than even the earliest predicted date. We're not going to cook the planet (and our survivability), we are already doing it. We are way past the time for preventative measures, we can only hope to ameliorate the destuctive consequences of global warming.
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Nogapspermitted at 13:41 PM on 23 August 2020Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies
Yes, that link does show how this company has developed a way to recycle the glassfibre into reusable beads for many further uses. I’m sure their initiative will be amply rewarded financially, as it should be, for beginning to solve a problem that was for a long time just ignored.
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nigelj at 08:35 AM on 23 August 2020Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies
Larry Smallwood @1
"Today's widely used wind turbine construction materials are NOT recyclable nor conducive to a healthy environmentally sensitive present and future"
I appreciate your concerns but this is wrong, and just an assertion. Most wind towers have fibreglass blades but at least one company is recycling these by grinding them up for use in composite wall boards and similar products as below. So they can be recycled. Its not easy but they are making it work. I suggest it could be expanded rapidly with some sort of government incentive like a small tax break or a similar device.
resource-recycling.com/plastics/2019/03/27/company-expands-wind-turbine-recycling-operation/
Its also possible to make the blades from aluminium, which can be recycled. And the wind towers and generators are made of things like steel and aluminium and copper and we know those can be recycled from past experience.
Its even possible to make the blades out of timber, from what Ive read, which is probably the most sustainable material of all, but obviously this would be labour intensive with all those curves.
And yeah, don't make the perfect the enemy of the good as others say.
I agree with your comments and concerns about business investment.
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Bob Loblaw at 01:15 AM on 23 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
Keep in mind that even if current electricity production is based on fossil fuels, it is probably easier in the next 30 years to replace electricity generation capacity with non-fossil-fuel-based systems than it is to convert tens or hundreds of thousands of gas furnances in individual houses to electrical heating.
We used to live in Saskatchewan, and looked seriously at ground source heat pumps to replace our old, inefficient gas furnace, Retrofitting, as opposed to build new, represents a huge extra cost. And because of Saskatchewan's heavy use of fossil fuels for eletricity generation, federal goverment incentives to install heat pumps and such were not offered in Saskatchewan. We went back to gas, but at least forked out for 96% efficiency. Our gas consumption was cut roughly in half (as we did other efficiency improvements as well as the furnace).
Ground source heat pumps make a huge difference in electricity consumption, but at high initial capital cost. It is another heating method th at is much easier to install when a house is built than it is to retrofit.
Many home owners do not want the extra cost of energy efficiency features on a new house, if they don't plan to stay for 10-20 years. This is where building codes are really needed (insulation levels, heating efficeincy, etc.)
We now live in Ontario, which has large nuclear and hydro capacity. I believe the former Liberal government had plans to not allow fossil fuel heating sources in new construction at some point in the future. The current Conservative government tends to not share the same ideals, though.
Here is the diagram for Ontario, from the same source as the previous charts.
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One Planet Only Forever at 01:05 AM on 23 August 2020Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies
Larry Smallwood,
I fully support awareness of the need for everything that humans do to be Governed by the pursuit of Sustainable Development. That includes correcting unsustainable and harmful activities that were incorrectly allowed to develop popularity and profitability, and especially forcing the rapid ending of actions that powerful wealthy people harmfully incorrectly prolonged through misleading claim-making that delayed the development of the required corrections.
So I question the imposition of High Standards of Sustainability on actions to replace harmful unsustainable activities that have incorrectly remained popular and profitable.
Keeping sustainability in mind the alternative to not building wind turbines unless they are completely sustainable (not harmful, not unsustainably consuming materials) is to stop all activity that uses generated energy that is more harmful and less sustainable. All the other ways of getting artificial energy have impacts.
So it is clearly absurd to demand the high standard for the replacement of unsustainable ways of living. What needs to be understood is that the unsustainable harmful ways of living that have developed need to be ended. Hopefully that will be by being replaced by more sustainable, but potentially more expensive, ways of doing things. But the most important understanding is that if the more expensive more sustainable ways of doing the activity are not liked then the activity needs to be ended no matter how popular or profitable it has become.
People cannot be allowed the freedom to enjoy a Better Personal Present in ways that negatively affect the attempts by Others to Develop the Gift of a Sustainable Improving future for humanity. Many people enamored by westernized consumption-based capitalism struggle to understand that essential Governing principle. That understanding of the need to responsibly self-govern and be less harmful and more helpful really bothers people who were indoctrinated in the fatally flawed belief that it is best for people to be freer to believe whatever they want and do whatever they please.
Freedom Governed by the pursuit of expanded awareness and improved understanding applied to achieve and improve on the Sustainable Development Goals is what is required. And it is harder work that the alternatives.
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Larry Smallwood at 22:18 PM on 22 August 2020Pandemic lands 'worst body blow' in modern history on fossil fuel companies
So long as wind turbines are the built in mind of the most advanced and long lasting environmentally recyclable building materials known to mankind. Today's widely used wind turbine construction materials are NOT recyclable nor conducive to a healthy environmentally sensitive present and future; compounded by typical two-year economic investment/return business cycles that at the epicentre, driving deafening climate change disaster.
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michael sweet at 20:02 PM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
OPOF:
Bob Loblaw's point is well taken. Heating new construction using fossil electricity does not help much compared to using fossil natural gas.
Taking the long view, if electricity is used now than in 10 years when more renewable electricity is produced buildings using electricity will automatically release less carbon. Those buildings on natural gas will require expensive retrofitting to reduce carbon emissions.
I think the argument that natural gas makes a good bridge fuel is mostly made by natural gas producers. People who want to reduce carbon support buiding more renewable energy systems.
I agree that building out renewables as rapidly as possible makes the most sense.
Making electromethane using fossil fueled electricity does not make sense. You have to first convert the electricity system to renewable energy before you start large scale electroconversions. In general, it takes much less energy to do work using electricity than to do the same work using electrofuels. Electrofuels only make sense for things like airplanes and marine transport that are very difficult to electrify. Heating a home with electromethane would require 10 times more primary energy than heating the same home using electricity.
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One Planet Only Forever at 08:47 AM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
micheal sweet,
I understand that the article just focused on the aspect of natural gas use related to home heating and appliances like stoves.
The more generalized understanding is what I was bringing up. It relates to the incorrect belief taht natural gas use for heat and cooking is OK because that is the sales pich claiming an answer to climate change is natural gas use. And as Bob Loblaw has correctly pointed out the electric alternative to natural gas is questionable because it depends on how the electricity is generated. Probably better to keep the gas burning in homes until the renewables are on-line than to make electricity by burning gas then using it in homes to do the same things.
However, converting coal burning power plants to gas burning power plants is only complicated because of the changes of who makes money and what type of work is done to fuel it. Mind you now it is probaly better to just ramp up the pace of renewables in most locations.
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nigelj at 07:07 AM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
The Guardian article mentioned that attempts to get rid of gas connections were resisted by multiple parties, so gas suppliers, plumbers and trade unions and home owners. Its possibly an example of well intended but an unrealistic strategy.
It might be better to push for electromethane, which is carbon neutral, and can use the existing piped network and gas heaters, and would get less resistance from plumbing lobbies and trade unions and consumers. However its presumably more expensive than natural gas so would still get resistance from gas suppliers, but maybe easier than trying to ban gas connections. It would probably come down to the size of the price difference between electromethane and natural gas. If its small, people might accept it for the sake of environmental values.
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Bob Loblaw at 05:41 AM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
Moving to electricity for heat depends hugely on how that electricity is generated. In Canada, Alberta and Sasatchewan both make heavy use of coal and other fossil fuels:
- Alberta: 91% fossil fuels, of which 43% is coal.
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/nrgsstmprfls/ab-eng.html
- Saskatchewan: 83% from fossil fuels, 40% from coal
https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/nrgsstmprfls/sk-eng.html
Nationally, Canada has a very different picture:
No prizes awarded for guessing which provinces have the largest number of people that are against things like carbon taxes or other actions to deal with GHG emissions.
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michael sweet at 03:15 AM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
OPOF:
THe article in The Guardian did not discuss power plants. As I understand it, the argument about power plants is complicated.
The Guardian talked about cities making it illegal to connect new buildings to existing gas lines (or building new gas lines for new buildings). In the USA gas is currently very cheap. It is used in many locations for heating, cooking and heating water. If it is illegal to connect new buildings to the gas lines than those buildings will have to use electricity instead. That will be easy to convert to renewable electricity. It is expensive to convert buildings on gas lines to electricity.
Gas has been cheap in the USA due to a large supply from fracking. A lot of fracking companies will go bankrupt from Covid and the fact that they never make money. It will be interesting to see if gas prices in the USA go up to global prices. Renewable energy is already cheaper than gas in most of the USA.
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John Hartz at 02:23 AM on 22 August 2020We've been having the wrong debate about nuclear energy
Recommended supplemental reading:
Nuclear Plants Face More Heat Risk Than They’re Prepared to Handle by Leslie Kaufman, Finance, Bloomberg News, Aug 19, 2020
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:10 AM on 22 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
micheal sweet,
I agree that the use of Natural Gas has been, is being, incorrectly promoted.
The simple argument against Natural Gas is that it is half as bad a coal. It is non-renewable and harmful to the future of humanity. Being half as bad is not Good, it is still Bad.
That said, every coal burner in the USA should have long ago been converted to burn natural gas until the renewables were rapidly built out to replace the fossil fuel burners. It can still be done starting now, but with the realization that there is even less time for the converted power generator to run before it is shut due to the required rapid building of renewable capacity.
The hardest reality for people to come to grips with is that a recently built fossil fuel plant, or recently converted one, may need to be shuttered before its cost of construction has been recovered through operating profits and definitely before the investors get the full return on investment they thought they deserved. Converting Coal burners to Natural Gas is the right thing to do even if the costs will not be recovered by profit.
In "Capital and Ideology" Thomas Piketty presents many examples of wealthy people being compensated when their way of being wealthier than Others is determined to be harmfully unsustainable. That flawed belief could incorrectly result in investors in fossil fuel enterprises being rewarded if their gambles get shut down. And it is that hamful flawed hope that may be pushing the continued investment of attempts to profit from fossil fuels (government loss of money to convert coal burners to natural gas would be required but should not profit the coal burner investors)
Expanded awareness and improved understanding applied to achieve and improve on all of the Sustainable Development Goals is ultimately what is required. Correcting the understanding regarding Natural Gas is part of the required actions.
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anmin at 23:05 PM on 21 August 2020Renewables can't provide baseload power
Energy storage as one of the essential components in renewable power smart grid, many approaches were proposed and experimented as described in OP.
Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES) being one of them, suffered from temperature dropped and energy loss according to thermodynamic theory if air volume rapid expanding (used in energy storage and vehicle), what if replacing the "compressed air" with "high pressure water"? Would "hydraulic" be better than "thermodynamic"? How about an energy storage system made of a hydraulic accumulator and a power generator turbine driven by high pressure water jet? Just reading a motorcycle news about water power motorcycle the other day [water powered motorcycle concept drawings] [news about water powered concept motorcycle], I am not very interested in the said motorcycle (would it be better than current BEV?), but the water powered engine catches my eyes. If they can be used in vehicles and work (and if power almost lossless as claimed), why not scaled up and used in energy storage systems?
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shafiqulmridha at 08:55 AM on 21 August 20202019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #3
Hello John,
I read your Climate Myths weekly article about Climate Change & Global Warming and I think you have analyzed the whole thing wonderfully and published it in a meaningful way.However, I would like to express my opinion, I think many people don't know the relationship between the economy and climate change, or the two that flow in one stream. It's very important to inform everyone about the impact of COVID-19 on the world economy and the impact of globalization on the economy or the world economy.
In addition, I have published a wide-ranging article on the impact of the fishing industry on the world economy and our role in the world economy. I hope you and your users will benefit from reading my article and get the necessary facts. Give it a look: https://commercialmetropole.com/world-economy-2020-overview/
Moderator Response:[BL] Off-topic, irrelevant web link deleted.
Thank you for taking the time to share with us. Skeptical Science is a user forum wherein the science of climate change can be discussed from the standpoint of the science itself. Ideology and politics get checked at the keyboard.
Please take the time to review the Comments Policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.
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Adrian19671 at 23:06 PM on 20 August 2020Great Barrier Reef is in good shape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHF6MJZTCY8
Moderator Response:[BL] It is inappropriate to add comments consisting only of a link. Please read the Comments policy.
No link or picture only. Any link or picture should be accompanied by text summarizing both the content of the link or picture, and showing how it is relevant to the topic of discussion. Failure to do both of these things will result in the comment being considered off topic.
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Adrian19671 at 23:04 PM on 20 August 2020Great Barrier Reef is in good shape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m63KMzL1jzs
Moderator Response:[BL] It is inappropriate to add comments consisting only of a link. Please read the Comments policy.
No link or picture only. Any link or picture should be accompanied by text summarizing both the content of the link or picture, and showing how it is relevant to the topic of discussion. Failure to do both of these things will result in the comment being considered off topic.
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michael sweet at 20:10 PM on 20 August 2020Skeptical Science New Research for Week #33, 2020
The Guardian had an interesting article on how the natural gas industry is fighting regulation of gas use. People like 350.org are trying to switch to electrical use from gas. Then renewable energy can be used for heating and other uses that gas is used for now. The gas lobby has been very successful in stopping laws that reduce gas use. They are currently getting states to pass laws preventing cities from restricting gas use.
If we want to get to zero emissions we need to stop all fossil fuel use. That includes gas use. Somehow the gas lobby has to be countered.
Vote climate!
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nigelj at 09:53 AM on 18 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
M S Sweet, @16
"You are putting words in Brd Barons and my mouths."
No I'm not. I said you 'appear' to be dismissing my comments. There is a huge difference between this and saying "M S Sweet dismisses my comments.
And notice how when I respond to people I copy and paste what they say. This is how professionals do it. You just paraphrase and its not even slightly accurate.
And I asked you a clear question. You still havent answered it. Enginner Poet is right about you.
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Doug Bostrom at 05:52 AM on 18 August 2020Scientists remember 'Koni' Steffen, glaciologist who died after fall into crevasse in Greenland
Steffan's most recent publication Greenland surface air temperature changes from 1981 to 2019 and implications for ice‐sheet melt and mass‐balance change (coauthor) is here:
https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/joc.6771
Open access.
Moderator Response:[JH] Link activated.
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Bob Loblaw at 22:39 PM on 17 August 2020Scientists remember 'Koni' Steffen, glaciologist who died after fall into crevasse in Greenland
I just read about this in today's Globe and Mail (story attributed to the New York Times news service).
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michael sweet at 18:40 PM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Nigelj,
You are putting words in Brd Barons and my mouths.
Moderator Response:[BL] The two of you seem to be going around and around in circles on this. Can all involved please try to restrict comments to new points and reasonable discussion?
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nigelj at 13:05 PM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
michael sweet @14
I have no doubt renewable energy is technically possible by 2050, and it wont be excessively stressful financially, and we have the economic capacity if theres a will to do it. That was never the point at issue.
You havent really answered my question. I will try rephrasing it. It seems unlikely we will meet the targets of solving all problems by 2050 with sustainable systems (including renewable energy), for various politicial reasons (using this widely) , so we should look at a plausible scenario, and make up the shortfall by making some level of reduction to our consumption of electricity, meat, flying, and so on (and various authorities promote the same, more or less). This in turn suggests we need to get a little bit more specific about quantities.
So do you agree or disagree ? Surely scientists can manage a simple clear cut yes or no? You can of course qualify things with as many or few '"buts" as you want.
Its just that by agreeing fully with RB you were by simple logic appear to be disagreeing pretty fully with what Ive just said.
I have already put some energy into trying to convince politicians and others to adopt renewable energy programmes. I dont specifically promote nuclear power very often at all, but I just dont see it as an option worth opposing.
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michael sweet at 10:37 AM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Nigelj,
Jacobsosn et al 2018 and Connelly et al 2016 both show that it is entirely possible to build out a renewable energy system for ALL POWER by 2050 (not just electricity, All Power: electricity, heat, transportation, farming and industry). They include non fossil fuel for airplanes. The only thing required is political will power.
If everyone works hard to convince political leaders to get going we might have a chance.
Renewable energy has only been the cheapest option for about 5 years. It is now the cheapest option in about 2/3 of the world. In a few years it will be the cheapest option everywhere. Since fossil power plants take 10 years to plan and build they are still finishing plants started 10 years ago (like the Barakah nuclear plant in the UAE). If the USA takes a leadership position the change will be faster.
The Red Baron is more optimistic and informed about regenerative agriculture than I am. I think they will get something out of agriculture.
The unsupported opinion of a non expert who does not like to read the primary literature is not very valuable.
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nigelj at 09:19 AM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Correction to typo: "Most places dont have much zero carbon electricity and are unlikely to hit 100% by 2050"
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nigelj at 07:24 AM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
OPOF @10. thanks for understanding the issue is about levels of consumption, as well as building sustainable systems and making substitutions.
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nigelj at 07:17 AM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
M S Sweet @9 I never said otherwise. What I said simply summarised my view @2. Here it is again: "there are a couple of problems with your ideas. Most places dont have much zero carbon electricity and are unlikely to hit 100% before 2050 Paris Accord time frames. We don't have zero carbon fuels for aircraft, apart from very limited ethanol blends, and may never have at 100% level, and we dont have regenerative agriculture at scale and scaling it will not be quick or easy, and we dont have zero carbon cements, etcetera. So we have to look at how much we reduce our relevant personal consumption, at a point in time. It will vary over time obviously."
Do you disagree? If so why?
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:19 AM on 17 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
There are many news items about regenerative farming.
This CBC item is the latest I have come across "With better soil, farmers can fight climate change, make agriculture more sustainable".
The written article summarizes the longer radio conversation.
An important point made is that changing to regenerative farming is helpful, but the reduction of CO2 benefit eventually ends. So rapidly reducing the burning of fossil fuels is still required. Stopping rain forest destruction and stopping industrial farming are important helpful steps, but they are not lasting solutions.
The solution is for the highest consuming and impacting people to be low consuming and impacting people, and the richer they are the lower theiir consuption and impacts should be vbecxause richer people can afford to behave better.
That requires the combination of reduction of consuption that nigelj suggests along with corrrections of the consumption that occurs to only be sustainable activities like regenrative farming and renewable energy (not nuclear) done in a way that does not unsustainably consume materials, like the rare earth materials used in machines being fully recycled (no losses). It also requires external goiverning of the selfish among the population who will not responsibly self-govern to behave better than those who are less fortunate than they are.
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MA Rodger at 22:29 PM on 16 August 2020Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Preston Urka @192,
You raise the Barakah nuclear power plants and cite the "Pudding Argument" which I set out up-thread as a way to assess the usefulness of nuclear as a technology to address AGW. (Thus for nuclear, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. If nuclear were a useful means, where are these nuclear power plants that will be preventing AGW? This given it takes considerable time to build them and we are fast running out of the carbon budget which would limit AGW.) Note the "Pudding Argument" is more than a question of how quickly a nuclear power plant can be built and be operational. And also note that (as reported by the BBC 2/8/20) Barakah1 has solely "achieved its first criticality ... an important milestone towards commercial operations and generating clean energy." It is not yet "on-line".Perhaps the "Pudding Argument" (and nuclear's failure to meet it) requires a little clarity.
According to Wikithing, global electricity consumption was 19,500TWh in 2013, up from 12,100TWh in 2000 or an annual increase of 3.7% which would equal 721TWh/y based on the 2013 figure. (The Wikithing page also gives global final energy consumption figures which 2012-17 increased 1.6%/y or 1,800TWh/y based on 2017.)
According to IAEA-PRIS globally there are 54 reactors under construction (including the 4 Barakah reactors) with a combined capacity of 57,441MW. That would provide an additional 450TWh of nuclear (assuming a generous 90% Load Factor and ignoring old nuclear plants being shut down). With a build-time of 10 years for these new nuclear plant, this would suggest an extra 45TWh/y nuclear capacity or 6% of the growth in global electricty consumption (or 2.5% of the growth in final energy consumption). This suggests this new-build nuclear capacity would be insufficient to maintain nuclear's percentage contribution to global energy use (4% Primary so perhaps 6% Final) let alone actually contribute to reducing carbon emissions from FF use.The conclusion is that the present-build nuclear plant are not going to make a ha'p'orth of difference to reducing carbon emissions and given any future nuclear plants yet-to-start-construction will be at least a decade in the building and that there is no sign of any significant increase in the number of such nuclear plants being considered, I cannot but conclude that the nuclear contribution to tackling AGW has failed the "Pudding Test".
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michael sweet at 20:34 PM on 16 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Nigelj:
Please cite reputable sources to support your wild claims.
I have provided you many references that show it is possible to generate enough renewable energy to power the entire economy. Red Baron has provided references that show it is possible to reduce cfarbon emissions from agriculture.
Moderator Response:[BL] Please try to avoid inflammatory language, so we don't end up in another flame war.
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nigelj at 12:45 PM on 16 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
I think we need to build sustainable systems, and I never said otherwise. But I think sustainable systems are highly unlikely to be sufficient to meet Paris 2050 time frames and so while we build them we also need to look harder at our per capita consumption of various things, and that means having some precise quantitative goals or its just meaningless.
Most climate organisations where I live promote reducing consumption of various things. Im not suggesting the sort of crazy stuff, and self flaggelating stuff M Morre came out with in his planet of the humans movie, but we can do some things. Looks like RB and MS are in fantasy land, or are looking for a free lunch :)
Moderator Response:[BL] Please try to avoid inflammatory language, so we don't end up in another flame war.
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One Planet Only Forever at 11:45 AM on 16 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Regarding my earlier comments. They are meant to establish an understanding that, of course, is difficult to practically achieve by each person responsibly managing their individual budget (or each person being audited). As nigelj and Red Baron have been presenting Government over-sight and leadership action is required.
The people wealthier than the zero-carbon level of wealth can be monitored and audited individually with the oversight of national audits being performed by an international organization.
The lower levels of wealth would be harder to manage individually. What would make more sense is for nations and each of their regions to be assigned total carbon budgets based on the wealth levels and distribution within each regional population. The total impacts from the region would be monitored. And evaluators would investigate the evidence of measurable efforts to meet the intent of getting better behaviour from the wealthier people. Possible measures include comparing carbon impacts from registered vehicle use and home energy use with level of wealth with significant deterrent penalties for wealthier people if their impacts are higher than less wealthy people (competition to be lower impacting).
Regarding the ways for people to better understand how they can be less harmful and more helpful (in addition to the nigelj and Red Baron discussion on the issue), one simple action is for people to stop any recreational activity that involves fossil fuel use. Another is of course for people to be made aware of the better food options with measures implemented to make the better options less expensive than the currently developed popular and profitable food choices.
A last point is regarding the inter-generational reality of impacts. The lack of responsible corrective actions through the past 30 years has created the much more daunting challenge that the current day global community faces. And it has caused the harmful inequity of what the younger generation will be able to do (and, of course, there is regional inequity due to regions getting wealthy from harmful activity that affects regions that do not benefit).
It may be helpful to have retroactive penalties for wealthier and more influential people who misled and misinformed populations through the past 30 years. As a minimum, richer nations with leadership members who misled about the matter should face retro-active penalties as a deterrent to continuation of that harmful activity.
And penalties could even be considered for people who Optimistically promoted the idea that no corrections of behaviour were required because growing economic wealth with enlightenment would naturally produce the required solution through new technological developments that would be popular and profitable.
Necessity can powerfully drive innovation. And imposing restrictions and corrections that are unpopular, especially ones that are unpopular with the wealthiest, could be a very powerful motivation for helpful sustainable innovation.
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michael sweet at 10:26 AM on 16 August 2020Why children must emit eight times less CO2 than their grandparents
Red Baron @2,
I was very pleased to see a post from you that I completely agree with!!
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