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Comments 95951 to 96000:

  1. Meet The Denominator
    Gee Poptech, if I type in Anthropogenic Global Warming into Google Scholar (with patents de-selected) I get roughly 70,000 hits. When I type in Human Induced Climate Change, I get over 700,000 hits, & 150,000 if I use the term Anthropogenic Climate Change. So, if we combine all 3 term searches, we're looking at around 1 *million* references to anthropogenic climate change/warming. Again, if even one percent of those are peer-reviewed, pro-AGW papers, that still leaves 10,000 papers that support the position of AGW. Makes your list of 850 look absolutely *pathetic*-especially given that many of the papers you cite are poorly peer-reviewed or don't even support the pro-skeptic position you claim it does. Still, I've often found that the vehemence of a defense of a position is often inversely proportional to how strong that position is-something that you've definitely proven here today. Especially given that most of your counter-points have consisted of nothing more than unfounded accusations against others, & absolutely *no* attempt to strengthen your original claim with actual hard *evidence*!
  2. Meet The Denominator
    "So now when a paper mentions "climate change" it really means that the origin is anthropogenic? Talk about spin!" Not at all Poptech. It stands to reason that you would have to do some major analysis to separate the wheat from the chaff. The problem with your reasoning is that you imply that there is not much 'wheat' to be sifted. "I do not have mind reading abilities and thus have no way to infer what is not explicitly stated and neither do you." Irrelevant. It is your responsibility, not to read minds, but to do some hard work to come out with an accurate assessment of the situation. Instead, semantics is used as a rhetorical shield. Bottom line, it is absurd to imagine that several thousand Climatologists, throughout the past several decades have not turned out at least tens of thousands of papers supportive or indicative of man made climate change versus your claimed 850. Are we to be naive enough to believe that 850 papers on the "skeptic" side are countered only by (implicit in your arguments) a fraction of 1900 papers on the "other side"? As far as your statement that my concept of "fair" is subjective, I guess that trying to balance both sides is your idea of subjective. But then a visit to your website made it clear where you're coming from.
  3. Meet The Denominator
    1) If only one out of a hundred of the Google Scholar articles was peer reviewed, the number would still be over ten times as large as PopTech's list. 2) If you search for attribution anthropogenic pdf "global warming" OR "climate change" and require "at least summaries", it will give you results on an important subset of climate change science (attribution) with a link to a PDF somewhere in the results. You can bet that these results overwhelmingly come from peer reviewed sources. The number is twice as large as PopTech's list, despite being a tiny fraction of all the papers on climate change. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=attribution+anthropogenic+pdf... 3) The "Oregon Petition" has been collecting names for over ten years and anyone with a BS and a pulse could respond. Since it is a petition and not a survey, respondents were limited only to one response (i.e. agreeing with the petition) which immediately filters out anyone who doesn't agree. It alleges to have signatures of 40 self described "climate scientists." Those 40 climate scientists represent about 0.1% of the total names on the list. The Doran/EOS survey had about twice as many climate scientists (77-79 depending on the question), all active, despite a limited number of recipients (all Earth scientists). The number of climate scientists agreeing with the consensus position represented about 2% of the total respondents, which is ~20 times larger than the 0.1% described as "climate scientists" in the Oregon Petition. Of all of the respondents, 82% agreed with the consensus position, that number increasing with the relevence of their specific expertise. 4) Only the ideologically blind would see an unparalleled global conspiracy rather than accept the evdidence for the consensus on climate change, to say nothing of the evidence for climate change itself. Such blindness usually revolves around alarmist "new-world-order-we'll-all-eat-tofu-while-we-wait-for-our-death-panel-to-assign-our-fate" rhetoric and no rational examination of the facts. As for alarmism on the consensus side, a 2+ degree temperature change compressed over the coming century might be considered "alarming" for anyone who knows something about similar climate shifts in the past.
  4. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech @81 " Regardless something that does not support AGW Alarm does not mean it has to "refute" it. It can simply not mention it at all!" By that metric any paper written about physics or astronomy (or any other scientific topic) would quality. AWG Alarm will need a definition as well. @82 "So now when a paper mentions "climate change" it really means that the origin is anthropogenic?" I do not believe that anyone made that claim, but were pointing out that you are dismissing a large number of papers that MAY be relevant but do not use the exact phrase "anthropogenic global warming." The relevance could only be decided on a per paper basis. Those that use "climate change" could support, deny, or take no position on the anthropogenic question. In any case this topic has grown very emotionally heated and is not particularly constructive.
  5. Meet The Denominator
    @58, Poptech: Let me join in with the rest and (re)beat a dead horse. What I have created is a valuable resource for skeptics of the peer-reviewed literature supporting their arguments. You still haven't given me a direct answer as to the number of (Non natural) Climate Change peer reviewed papers. Yes, you did state: "I have yet to see any hard numbers on peer-reviewed papers that explicitly endorse AGW. As there are only around 1900 Google Scholar results that even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming"." Yet notice how you limit your "search" to one particular phrase which is not likely to be used in most papers that would support the concept of AGW regardless of semantics. Most of them are likely to use the phrase "Climate Change". So you justify your selectivity in phrases by saying: "It doesn't count as in explicit support of "anthropogenic global warming" theory, correct. You seem to have made it obvious by the above quote that you are not only disinterested in knowing the ratio of pro versus con, regardless of phrasing, but that there is a simple agenda in this project. Give one side what it wants. You called it "a valuable resource" but it is clear that the value has to do with the illusion of substance. If numbers meant anything, a fair assessment would be to include the numbers of both sides. A one sided count is obviously misleading, since it is targeted at the general public who would be impressed by any number in the hundreds but ignorant of the tens of thousands of papers that would support AGW (Again, a reminder. It doesn't matter that the exact phrase AGW is not mentioned in the paper). This is, to put it bluntly, propaganda.
  6. Philippe Chantreau at 17:19 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    Now Poptech is trying to play in words. You said "does not support" with an implication that it treated of it, which is equivalent to refuting, except perhaps in some rethorician's twisted mind. What are we going to talk about next? The meaning of "is"? This is extending beyond pathetic. You should cut your losses PT.
  7. Miriam O'Brien (Sou) at 17:18 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    Rob, I don't think too many people are taken in by poptech's 'list'. It's true that deniers occasionally quote it as a 'proof', but less and less often these days because it's so easy to show that it's as meaningless as the fraudulent oregon petition. When the list was only 450, Greenfyre wrote this. When poptech dredged up a few more titles to add to his list, articles like this one appeared. Does anyone (except poptech himself) take him seriously these days? Most deniers have now had to turn themselves into delayers because the evidence for anthropogenic global warming is so patently obvious to everyone, so people like poptech have been left behind and mostly forgotten. I expect poptech is grateful that anyone on this site remembers he exists.
  8. Philippe Chantreau at 17:14 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    "This is just a theory of mine based on researching this." The initial for that are BS. If you can't substantiate, keep it to yourself. That post should be deleted, as it is a sweeping accusation against many people. I read from you that your research led you to discover many such papers (i.e. your list) and you claimed that only a small portion is in E&E. You're really a funny guy. And by the way, the words I attributed to SBC are her own. E&E is not worth a rabbit's turd to anyone doing real science, whether you like it or not. Your Gish gallop here is entertaining but makes as much sense as Monckton's self contradictory ramblings. Have a nice life in fantasy land.
  9. Meet The Denominator
    #71: Sorry, your basic premise of irrefutable demonstration was just refuted. QED.
  10. Meet The Denominator
    #64: Can't have it both ways, PT. Your criterion was "it is literally impossible for a paper to endorse something it does not even mention" and thus you came up with 1900 papers. There are 47700 mentions, better start going through 'em all to see who supports what.
  11. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Not a straw man at all. I'm just trying to clarify your position.
  12. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... I'm sorry but there is not a wide body of research refuting AGW. You've managed to qualify yourself into a very tiny little corner.
  13. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "It doesn't count as in explicit support of "anthropogenic global warming" theory, correct." Ah. Climate change has nothing to do with anthropogenic global warming? Is this right?
  14. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "If the list was so meaningless we would not be having this discussion." What is meaningful is the fact that you are creating a red herring that is suggesting to people that there is a wide body of research that contradicts climate change. All I've done is put your list in a broader perspective. Sorry if that's inconvenient for your.
  15. Meet The Denominator
    #56: "only around 1900 papers even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming"" Or not. Try anthropogenic "global warming" (quotes as shown), you get 47700 hits on Scholar.
  16. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "I just irrefutably demonstrated that only around 1900 papers even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming". Thus it is literally impossible for a paper to endorse something it does not even mention." Hm, so by your standard a paper that mentions "climate change" doesn't count. A paper has to specifically use the term "anthropogenic global warming?" Fascinating.
  17. Miriam O'Brien (Sou) at 16:37 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    @ poptech, who said: "This is just a theory of mine based on researching this." Poptech, are you going to publish your research in E&E or on your own website? I'd be very interested in seeing the data (if any) that you have based your 'theory' upon. Perhaps your 'theory' is only a hypothesis of yours and you have not yet collected any data one way or another. Sorry, mods. I've had a bit of fun since poptech has joined in and has highlighted how far he is willing to go in his unscrupulous mischief. He is targeting those lacking basic research skills who are of a denialist bent. Not sure why he thinks anyone on this website would fall for his transparent 'tricks'.
  18. Crichton's 'Aliens Cause Global Warming'
    RSVP, to the best of my knowledge, you've yet to display a "spirit of open-mindedness". To date you've provided absolutely *nothing* to the debate beyond pseudo-scientific bunkum, word-games & contrariness for its own sake. I've always had a very open mind about the cause of recent global warming, yet still have yet to see any remotely convincing argument for a cause other than rising greenhouse gas emissions. As you have also failed to provide even remotely convincing evidence, I'm still left with the view that humans are responsible for current warming-that's something that your increasingly pointless posts cannot change.
  19. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "All published papers are rigorously peer-reviewed." Really? Hm, the rest of the scientific community doesn't seem to agree with that position.
  20. Meet The Denominator
    #40: "papers supporting the 1,500 year climate theory" Funny how if you search Google Scholar using "1500 year climate theory" in quotes, you get 0 results. "1500 year climate cycle" gets a measly 2 pages, mostly Singer, Loehle and company. But I always thought it was the quality of the papers, not the quantity of papers that counted.
  21. Meet The Denominator
    Angusmac @ 46 - I am glad that Einstein ignored the numbers that were stacked against him when he came up with the theory of relativity and challenged the ruling paradigm of Newtonian physics. Your history is a little fuzzy. Einstein developed ideas put forward by others years earlier. You could research this stuff you know.
  22. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... ".Do you always fail to read everything you attempt to "analyze"? ..." What you do in qualifying your list this way is essentially render it meaningless. Basically what you've done is stated that whatever you say goes regardless of any outside normalcy. You've created your own alternate universe that has no bearing on the world the rest of us live in.
  23. Meet The Denominator
    angusmac AGW has mountains of measured data. If the doubters intend to overturn the established order they had best get to work producing some numbers and data of their own. It can be done, if your doubt is science based.
  24. Meet The Denominator
    "The papers supporting the 1,500 year climate theory are include because that is one of the skeptic's theories." A theory, Poptech, needs *evidence*-& the evidence for the 1,500 year climate "cycle" is weak & often contradictory. That you included these unproven hypotheses in your list of peer-reviewed articles merely highlights the weakness of your original claims. Equally weak is your claim that other journals arbitrarily refuse papers written by skeptics-when all the evidence proves that skeptic papers *are* published in these journals *if* they meet the basic standards of peer review. What E&E does is abandon those standards in order to promote its skeptical agenda-hardly something I'd be keen to put forward to promote my case.
  25. Meet The Denominator
    I am glad that Einstein ignored the numbers that were stacked against him when he came up with the theory of relativity and challenged the ruling paradigm of Newtonian physics. It only needs one person to be right. The AGW paradigm may be correct but it will not be proven by numbers – it will only be proven by facts that are shown to comply with measured data.
  26. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "...she simply does not arbitrarily refuse papers because they come from a skeptic as other journals do." In other words, E&E does not bother to thoroughly review their published papers, unlike other journals.
  27. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech If you are going to claim that other journals "arbitrarily refuse papers because they come from a skeptic" you are going to have to back that up with some evidence.
  28. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "I just would like to point out you scored your own goal regarding the Oregon Petition as you would have to apply the same numerical standards to lists of proponents of AGW." That's not the case because I would never use such absurd standards to evaluate a scientific issue. Would I poll everyone with a BS or better to evaluate a medical procedure? No. The proper way to evaluate a specific scientific issue is to ask the specialists in that field of research. And I'm sure you are quite aware of the results of Doran 2009.
  29. Meet The Denominator
    "You failed to go through every single search result, confirm they were all peer-reviewed papers (not a news item, editorial or letter to the editor) from a peer-reviewed journal, not a duplicate listing and explicitly endorse AGW theory." So sure are you, Poptech. On what basis do you make such a bold claim? How do you know Rob didn't do exactly that? You expect us to take-at your word-your claim to have thoroughly checked all the papers you list as supporting the skeptic position-even though the evidence strongly suggests otherwise, yet you don't afford the same courtesy to Rob or any of the other posters here. Talk about typical denialist hypocrisy.
  30. Meet The Denominator
    "Whether a journal is indexed by them is purely subjective and irrelevant to the peer-review status of the journal." Yet every scientific journal of note is listed in ISI-which clearly means that the *entire* scientific community sees ISI listing is highly relevant-at least as far as peer-review status. In my own field of expertise, nothing short of publication in an ISI listed journal counts towards your publication record. Face facts, you just don't want to admit that E&E is a poorly "peer-reviewed" journal-established for purely ideological reasons-that has delusions of grandeur.
  31. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Sorry you're disappointed with my article but you fail to even listen to the authors of the papers you list regarding their positions on the issue. I don't think you have any room to be pointing fingers in this case. If I were to go through a more rigorous exercise from my side of the issue that would require that I do the same on your side as well, such as evaluating whether E&E can legitimately be considered peer-reviewed. This is a case of, be careful what you ask for.
  32. It cooled mid-century
    #7: "show no significant impact from CO2" That's absolutely incorrect, as the graph below (from NOAA/NCDC clearly shows). Where do you come up with such silliness? And of course, you're off topic. Find the appropriate threads using the search function.
  33. Philippe Chantreau at 15:45 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    E&E is the only publication with scientific pretense that acknowledges and even claims a bias toward a certain conclusion in research results. It was created and has been maintained to be "a platform" (Sonia B.C.'s words) for "skeptics." The main criterion is not the work's quality but its intention. That's a pathetic perversion of everything science stands for. How Sonia B.C. managed to have this piece of garbage listed as a peer-reviewed science journal reflects on her relational skills and aptitudes to work the system more than anything else. If it appears in print, it is a rather sad thought that a tree was cut to support this nonsense. Even the pesky junk mail deserves to exist more than this thing.
  34. Meet The Denominator
    Another point, Poptech, is that its *irrelevant* how many proponents/opponents to AGW there are out in the general scientific community-at least as far as true consensus goes. What is relevant is the number of proponents/opponents to AGW there are within the broader climate science community-& the evidence that they have to back their position. To the best of my knowledge, there are as few as a dozen Climate Scientists who do not back the consensus view on AGW-& at least two of those (Lindzen & Choi) are only in disagreement insofar as how bad AGW will get in the future-though the evidence they provide for that position is less than compelling. Based on your list, though, you happily include the papers of these, shall we say, "luke-warmists" in you list of papers to further pad it out. You also have included at least half a dozen papers that claim this is all part of a natural 1500 year cycle-even though there is still NO EVIDENCE to back that view (the last warm period, after all, ended *less* than 1,000 years ago (700 years to be precise), which would mean this supposedly natural "cycle" is a good 800 years early. Even if you take the 1500 years to start from the *beginning* of the last cycle, its still 200 years early). I've not had time to do a full analysis of your list of papers but, if that's the quality of them, then your position is *incredibly weak*!
    Moderator Response: (Daniel Bailey) I had to warn Poptech so I have to warn you, Marcus. Please, no more all-caps. Thanks!
  35. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Thanks for stopping in. re: #32... I actually deselected the patent button when I did the search. I also went through the list fairly thoroughly and noted that most all the articles listed were from actual published papers, as I noted.
  36. Meet The Denominator
    "I just would like to point out you scored your own goal regarding the Oregon Petition as you would have to apply the same numerical standards to lists of proponents of AGW. Thus you have done nothing but help support that there is no consensus." Hmmm, this just displays your ongoing, blind ignorance to what scientific consensus actually is. Its not a popularity contest, no matter how much you try & make it so-its about the *scientific evidence* that either backs or debunks an existing theory. To date, though you've been quick to cite those papers that allegedly support skepticism of AGW (even though some are contradictory or don't, in truth, support skepticism as you claim) you've not been honest enough to do your own search of the literature to see how this stacks up against papers that *don't* support AGW skepticism. If you were an honest skeptic, & not merely a propagandist, then you'd have the common decency to do this.
  37. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech - Funny: I get 2020 Google Scholar finds with quotes, 67,700 without.
  38. Meet The Denominator
    You know, Poptech, if I were trying to build a *scientific* case against Global Warming, I'd be very leery about using a journal that isn't ISI listed, & whose editor has publicly admitted that the journal has a "political agenda"-namely backing so-called skepticism. You criticise others-with no evidence-of using non-scientific sources to bolster their argument, yet you've clearly felt a need to pad out your own rather dubious list with the pseudo-scientific nonsense published in E&E-talk about an own goal right there!
  39. Meet The Denominator
    Tell me, Poptech, how many peer reviewed papers in favor of Climate Change would you estimate there are? More than or less than 850? If greater than 850, by how much? An order of magnitude or two perhaps? By the way, what do your links at #17 have to do with the number of Climate Change articles?
  40. Meet The Denominator
    Also note that in Poptech's world, a paper in E&E is perfectly equivalent to a paper in Science, Nature, or even Geophys Letters. Wonder what the numerators for cross-journal citations are like?
  41. Meet The Denominator
    After #22 I wouldn't be surprised if "850 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of 'Man-Made' Global Warming (AGW) Alarm" suddenly becomes "851 Peer-Reviewed Papers Supporting Skepticism of 'Man-Made' Global Warming (AGW) Alarm".
  42. Meet The Denominator
    It goes even further than that though. I have a Bachelor of Science-with Honors-& work in a scientific field (Molecular Biology/Soil Microbiology). I understand the Scientific Method well enough-& know how to read a scientific paper-to be able to understand when a theory is supported by good evidence. Yet if someone were to make an "appeal to authority", & get me to sign a petition saying I support the theory of AGW, I don't know if I could do so in all good conscience. Not because I *don't* support the theory of AGW (because I do), but because ultimately I don't have the background to sign such a petition honestly. So it *really* bugs me that there are supposed scientists out there who are prepared to dishonestly lend their names to a petition about a subject which the majority of them clearly know even less about than I do. Hope that makes sense!
  43. Meet The Denominator
    Hmm... I see that Wikipedia says tt is estimated that approximately one percent of the general population are psychopaths.
  44. It cooled mid-century
    The temperature variations according to NOAA/NCDC dataset from 1880-2010 vs rising CO2 levels indicate no significant impact from CO2. However, the day/night variations explained above appear to be legitimate science and I applaud them for their work. The real worry may not be so much CO2 but a possible sudden release of Methane Hydrate from the sea bottoms and tundra bogs of Siberia.
  45. Meet The Denominator
    I limited the search to the term "climate change" and only searched articles in the subject areas of 1) Biology, Life Science and Environmental Science, and 2) Physics, Astronomy and Planetary Science. That returned 954,000 articles. I got 622,000 by folowing the same exact criteria but when I dropped the quote marks on "climate change" I got 956,000.
  46. Monckton Myth #10: Warming in the Pipeline
    Thanks for clarifying that Dana & Muon. I knew I only had part of the story. Any look at CO2 vs solar forcing for the last 120 years shows that CO2 easily swamps solar. Its worth noting that solar forcing grew from almost zero during the Maunder/Dalton Minimum periods up to the highs of the mid-20th century, yet that produced-at best-a +0.6 degree warming over a period of about 200 years. By contrast, we've seen a +0.6 degree warming in just the last 60 years-with +0.5 degrees of that being in the last 30 years-which represents an almost 10 times more rapid warming trend than from Solar "alone" (I say alone, though for the period of 1900-1950 CO2 was almost certainly playing a minor role). IMO, that really does highlight how powerful greenhouse gases are at boosting temperatures-compared to solar forcing alone-something further reinforced by a consideration of how much hotter our planet was 500 million years ago-in *spite* of the sun being significantly cooler than today.
  47. PMEL Carbon Program: a new resource
    Here in this article, you say the oceans absorb a quarter, but in the NOAA sites itself, http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Ocean%2BAcidification, it says "one third", which is even more scary. The oceans might not turn completely lifeless, but they will be pretty barren pretty soon. Worse yet, people will still have videos of people eating sushi and other seafood, so they will know what we have deprived them of. So instead of the ancestor worship still common in the Far East, there will be a widespread cult of ancestor cursing.
  48. Meet The Denominator
    Even if you had been more liberal in your treatment of the OP or Poptech, it would still have demonstrated that it's little more than "grandstanding". It's like these outfits try to prey upon gullibility by speaking as if they have some ordained authority. The sad part is that there is an element of realism to it. I don't know about the rest here but I come into contact with plain old Joe of the streets on a daily basis. And I find most are simply misinformed, citing garbage like this, and could care less to find out the real truth. Oh, lest I forget those who would deny the truth based upon some "higher" belief, or those who deny just because it's in their nature to do so. Most of them are too busy trying to be the nice hand fed puppies that they are, mindlessly sipping their Latte' from Starbucks. Most don't hold opinions of their own design. Don't worry about not being counted as a real scientist just cause you live outside the U.S. The Ville, cause "Your not a Real American unless Your a Marine" either, or so the story goes. And to think that all these years I was raised to believe that a Real American was -- an Indian.
  49. Meet The Denominator
    @Alexandre- Right you are. But isn't it sad? Doesn't it say something is terribly wrong about our so-called "scientific peer review"? After all, the paper really did somehow manage to squeak past. Even if they are a minority of papers that passed peer review, this is really, really bad.
  50. Meet The Denominator
    Now what you have to do is get the article to show the Austrian-accent pronunciation of "I'll be back";) Oh, BTW: I see the comments have already made a good start on it, but I'll mention it anyway: once you have shown that even giving them the benefit of the doubt, the numbers are not behind them, it really does make sense to go ahead and show that they never deserved that benefit of the doubt in the first place. Like Polar Bear said, there are a lot of people with degrees who really don't know much science, even with nursing degrees, where they really should have learned something about it. Sad to say, there are even a lot of people with medical and engineering degrees who think they know science, but most of what they 'know' about it isn't even true. Why, I'll go even further and say that there are too many "practicing scientists" who don't even really know science. I have in mind this one individual with a PhD in science who publicly humiliated and ridiculed a fellow scientist for pointing out the unsolved problems in the presenter's thesis in a seminar on biology that took place at a major biotech company. But such criticism IS a vital part of the scientific method: if your conclusion/proposal cannot survive sound criticism, then it is unscientfic. After all: in Newton's 'Opticks', where he gave his still valid description of the scientific method, he says: "And if no exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally (p380)". But how will we KNOW whether or not exceptions occur, if we silence objections like this? We MUST allow them, as long as "they are taken from Experiments or other certain Truths (ibid)". In the case I am criticizing, they were. Objections can be silenced only when they are truly unscientific, such as the objections of Lindzen and Monckton, which are neither from experiments nor from any other kind of "certain truths". NB: Newton's 'Opticks' is in Google Books. It is worth reading the citations above in context, since his description of the scientific method is SO good!

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