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From Peru at 11:06 AM on 16 February 20122000 Years of Climate Reconstructed from Pollen
Tom Curtis , from where you got that beautiful paleoclimate graph in comment 21?Response: -
skywatcher at 10:47 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Oh the irony. Heartland comes out claiming both theft and forgery! The documents are fake! But even if they were not fake they were stolen! Why am I reminded strongly of ... Global warming isn't happening! ... Even if it is, it's all natural! I think comparisons with how Heartland treated the CRU emails theft would make very interesting reading right now. -
John Russell at 10:29 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
The alleged 'faked' document is full of figures. And it appears that they are correct figures. So do we find it plausible that the faker -- supposedly an outsider -- could make up these figures and get them so accurate? And anyway, the document itself is not that important -- provided the figures are confirmed as accurate. So the Heartland is snookered: the only way it can prove the document is a fake is by showing that the figures it contains are wrong; and they can only show they're wrong by letting an independent auditor verify the real figures. If they don't agree to an audit then everyone knows they're lying. And they can hardly refuse an audit when they were so keen on the UEA enquiry, can they? However one sees it, it looks like they'll go down in flames. -
Albatross at 10:15 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
If Heartland wish to demonstrate that the doscuments are authentic then they can post side-by-side comparisons with their own versions, together with information on the computer that was used to produce the documents, time of creation etc. As for thei claim that the scanned confidential memo is fake...show us all your memos then and associated emails so that we can corroborate that claim. The fact that the content of the alleged "faked" memo is corroborated by the content of the other PDFs makes their claim not very compelling at all. Anthony Watts is throwing a tanturm and suddenly cares about journalistic integrity and ethics etc.. How much did Heartland contribute to or pay Watts for publishing this nonsense? -
Paul D at 10:11 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
CBD@117 "It is almost like they are applying slightly different standards." Slightly different standards? From what I can see, they have posted numerous articles about the climategate emails and not once checked the validity of those articles with the scientists concerned. -
Emilio at 09:29 AM on 16 February 2012Tropical Thermostats and Global Warming
And 31 oC isn´t a paradise. For most ocean species, 31 oC is a hell. -
citizenschallenge at 09:11 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
Interesting discussion re elsa, her comments and the valuable replies she received then how she handled them. I know this get's pretty simple but elsa try out this short video: Global Warming: It's Not About the Hockey Stick ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ However I came here for a different reason. Back to Vahrenholt's interview, answering question #4 his reply includes the following, when explaining why he doesn't trust the IPCC: "...In one case, a Greenpeace activist's absurd claim that 80 percent of the world's energy supply could soon be coming from renewable sources was assumed without scrutiny. This prompted me to examine the IPCC report more carefully." ~ ~ ~ Does anyone know the background to this. . . and the rest of the story? -
johnkg at 09:06 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Curry's waded in with some 'balance' http://judithcurry.com/2012/02/15/heartland/ The damage limitation crew are working overtime... /sarcasm -
Rob Honeycutt at 09:06 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Paul said... "Oh, and of course they threaten legal action against anyone posting the documents." That's a Monckton Maneuver. It would be 1) impossible for them to do such a thing, and 2) it would clearly violate freedom of the press. -
dorlomin at 09:05 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Its called blagging Link text There is likely to be a world of challanges in figuring out if a law was broken as there is a case for a public interest defence. Thats if the Heartless story is true. Most of the info on the claimed faked document is available on others. -
CBDunkerson at 08:43 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
It's odd that Heartland's press release on this reads a tiny bit differently than their take on the CRU hack. It is almost like they are applying slightly different standards. As to the story about someone getting the documents by misrepresenting themselves through e-mail... if true that would mean that someone at Heartland made the (rather egregious) mistake of sending private documents to a random e-mail address claiming to be someone who should receive them. They're now vowing to find and prosecute the 'criminal'... but is this even illegal? If claiming to be someone you are not on the internet is against the law then the prisons of the world are about to get alot more crowded. -
Philippe Chantreau at 08:34 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Fydijkstra, your play on words is of no interest. Everybody knows what is referred to by climate denial, the denomination may not be exactly technically correct, who cares? Get over it. HI does not fund research, they fund a media campaign, in which they aim at keeping dissenting voices out. The stuff revealed by these documents is profundly despicable. I don't see how anyone who is part of the public would not feel threatened by an organized campaign of misinformation undertaken by an organization commnandited by a few industries, with the stated goal of fostering these insutries' interests above all other considerations. As for what H.I. spits out in their defense, I will not trust it one bit. I have no doubt that they will say anything to meet the need of the moment. -
NewYorkJ at 08:30 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
So Heartland denies the authenticity of the Climate Strategy document. Legal experts might want to comment. Is this something that could be confirmed one way or the other? Seems like Heartland could easily permanently delete the document in question from their records, and proving it to be authentic might be virtually impossible. At least with the financial info, it's subject to government audits. A separate strategy document, maybe not. -
CBDunkerson at 08:23 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
elsa wrote: "while I can understand a relationship between two variables might be statistically significant I do not see how you could make the statement that the trend in temperature is so." Then I can only conclude that you do not understand what the words 'statistically significant' mean in standard usage. A general overview on statistical significance in regards to temperature trends can be found here and here. and: "Perhaps you can explain then how you would take step (i) without using (iv). From where would you derive a relationship between eg CO2 and temperature without actually carrying out (iv)?" As others have noted, the relationship between CO2 and temperatures was established over a century ago... and decades before Arhenius first cited the possibility of anthropogenic global warming. You seem almost to be arguing that we cannot formulate any new theories without first going back and re-validating all previous knowledge. Obviously, new theories are based on our understanding of other things and thus in some sense all science could be described as one continuously evolving 'theory of everything', but if we are to separate out individual scientific theories (like AGW) then they must have distinct introductory points (Arhenius 1896 for AGW) as 'step i', founded on the state of science available at that point. also: "sorry about the timing of posts which is to do with the need to log out if one's view of the blog is to be updated." I'm not sure what you mean here... I update the view all the time without logging out. In most cases you should be able to just hit the browser's 'refresh' button. The only exception would be if you are still on the page displayed after you made a post... in which case refreshing might cause a duplicate post. However, you can just click to any other page and then back OR use the browser 'back' button to go back to your view of the page prior to posting. No need to log out, -
Dennis at 08:19 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
However, I think it's fair to say that caution should be exercised against reading too much into the documents while the authenticity is being questioned. Given Heartland's problem with scientific facts in their NIPCC reports, I wouldn't trust Heartland as the final word on what's "authentic" in these documents as well. I think it's time for some good journalists to start calling the Heartland staff and board members and start mining for contradictions in their version of these events. -
Paul from VA at 08:19 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Another thought, IANAL, but is seems to me Heartland wouldn't actually want to take legal action against anyone posting the documents, as that would allow for the real McCoy to be subpoenaed by the defendants.... Also, given that even without the documents, it's been obvious that Heartland's M.O. has been to spread corporate funded misinformation, their own press release should of course be taken with large block of salt. -
scaddenp at 08:18 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
Elsa, your line is that "observations contradict the theory of climate". Eg. "look little warming over past decade while CO2 goes up, ergo climate science is wrong". As has been pointed out this a/ not how to test observation versus model and b/ not what model predicts anyway. Likewise, claiming a cherrypick 1940 to 1970 is ignored, when gosh, it was cooling! is wrong for same reasons. The model has no problem with that cooling. The period chosen has to do with explaining why it is steadily warming over a period when there is no natural factors to explain that except for the short term noise. The denialists just focus on the noise. -
Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
An update: According to a recent press release from the Heartland Institute, they claim that the majority of the documents were emailed to someone claiming to be a board member who had changed emails and needed copies. In addition, they claim that the "2012 Climate Strategy" document is a fake - although the various components (monthly payments to Idso, Singer, Carter, $88K to Watts for a new surfacestations project, Wojick for "Lesson Plan modules") are line items in the (confirmed by HI) budget, and have in addition been supported by statements from Watts and Carter. So: this leak may have been obtained with "social engineering", not a whistleblower. And the exact language of the strategy document (curiously, it appears to be a scan from hardcopy, unlike the computer documents that make up the majority of the leak?) may be suspect, although the finances are in fact confirmed by the Heartland press release. -
Paul from VA at 08:09 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Heartland has now issued a press release on the subject. They claim that the documents may have been altered and that the climate strategy pdf is a complete forgery (although they have yet to indicate what parts of the other documents have been altered). They also indicate that the documents were obtained via a "spear phishing" attack, where someone impersonated a board member, so that would seem to imply a hack rather than a leak. Oh, and of course they threaten legal action against anyone posting the documents. Yay double standards. However, I think it's fair to say that caution should be exercised against reading too much into the documents while the authenticity is being questioned. -
ptbrown31 at 07:58 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
"Oceanic oscillations are just that - oscillations switching between positive and negative states, moving heat around between the oceans and atmosphere. Since both oceans and atmosphere are warming, it must be due to an external forcing, not an internal oscillation." This is incorrect. Changes in ocean circulations can change the distribution of radiatively active clouds and water vapor in the atmosphere and thus can cause an 'internal' radiative forcing (an actual change in total heat, not just a change in the location of heat). see this paper for example: http://www.mendeley.com/research/why-ocean-heat-transport-warms-the-global-mean-climate/ -
Bob Lacatena at 07:57 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Operation Angry Badger in their Fundraising Plan appears to directly violate the IRS laws on election involvement. It may be a judgment-call thing, but I think it's worth a closer look. At a minimum, given the tacit, admitted goal of the plan, the IRS should be investigating actual actions of the HI with respect to Wisconsin elections. -
ScaredAmoeba at 07:56 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
[quote] At present we sponsor the NIPCC to undermine the official United Nation's IPCC reports and paid a team of writers $388,000 in 2011 to work on a series of editions of Climate Change Reconsidered....[end quote] That would be SEPP, and is confirmed by: Confidential Memo: 2012 Heartland Climate Strategy Furthermore John Mashey has highlighted some interesting problems for Fred Singer at SEPP, like claiming that Fred Seitz worked for two years after his death. Here's hoping that this will soon prove very unpleasant for many of the characters concerned when the IRS start trawling through their books. -
actually thoughtful at 07:54 AM on 16 February 2012Climate mythbusting at Lane Cove, Sydney on Feb 28
I think you have a great intro now that the Heritage Foundation has been exposed.... I am hoping for video, but either way please report on the event. -
funglestrumpet at 07:34 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Considering the extent of support there is for the notion that letting climate change run its course will result in dire consequences for us all, any attempts to hinder action to combat it, regardless of any contrary personal viewpoint, has to be seen not only as dangerously irresponsible, but probably a crime against humanity according to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. The leaked documents need to be secured as evidence for any future court proceedings in The Hague. It goes without saying that this body of evidence should also include examples of other deliberate attempts to hinder action on climate change such as those by the likes of such luminaries as Monckton, Lawson, Philips and Hitchens to name just a few of the Brits who should be subject to investigation by the court’s officers. I leave those from other countries to name their own ‘favourite’ miscreants. It is about time that those who are behind the campaign to rubbish the science of climate change were made to face the consequences of their actions. And as for all the hand-wringing about whether it is right or not for us to use the materials this whistle-blower has released, well can you see the denialati worrying about such niceties? We are in a fight for the sake of our descendents and judging by some of the above posts I am sure that I am not alone in saying that when it comes to ‘me and mine’ I will fight dirty, really dirty, if that is what it takes. The Americans have a lovely expression: “Show me a good loser and I will show you a loser.” If I end up on the losing side of this fight, no one is going to be able to describe me as a ‘good’ loser. -
actually thoughtful at 07:02 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Yahoo/live Science has a piece up that focuses on the false dichotomy. For example they talk about the curriculum, but fail to mention the goal is to distract from talking about science. They are trying to soft pedal it. -
scaddenp at 06:56 AM on 16 February 2012Water vapor is the most powerful greenhouse gas
Emilio - I would assume this is Paltridge's long-debunked inference from the NCEP reanalysis. In the paper itself it was noted: "It is of course possible that the observed humidity trends from the NCEP data are simply the result of problems with the instrumentation and operation of the global radiosonde network from which the data are derived." though I doubt climate4you would be pointing that out. Since the NCEP reanalysis had known flaws and was in disagreement with practically every other measurement, this was a drawing a long bow, but then in denial-land, nothing like that gets replaced. It is contradicted by later reanalysis products. I think you can find better graph in AR4. -
actually thoughtful at 06:10 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Heartland 2012 Climate Strategies: "Expanded climate communications Heartland plays an important role in climate communications, especially through our in-house experts (e.g., Taylor) through his Forbes blog and related high profile outlets, our conferences, and through coordination with external networks (such as WUWT and other groups capable of rapidly mobilizing responses to new scientific findings, news stories, or unfavorable blog posts)." Wow. Of particular note is "mobilizing responses to new scientific findings". This is amazing information. (Amazing that it is exactly what one thinks must be going on, but can't in good conscience conceive of actually going on). -
Phila at 06:04 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
AT, I am giving up. In order to find common ground you have to want to have a discussion rather than stick to lecture mode. Disagreeing with you on certain important points does not constitute an unwillingness to have a discussion. Furthermore, statements like "valid points of view exist that are not your own" provide as good an example of the "lecture mode" as anything I've said here, if not better. Whether they also represent a greater avoidance of actual debate, I'll leave it for other readers to decide. So yes, by all means, let's give up...if not for our own sake, then for everyone else's. -
actually thoughtful at 06:02 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I just got through to desmogblog -slow, but still there. -
Rob Honeycutt at 06:01 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Phila... Well, you can say one thing about Idso. He's very effective at negotiating his compensation. Can't say the same for Bob Carter. -
andylee at 06:00 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Sapient@93, yes, I was surprised too at the Register's positive stance, perhaps they are coming out from the cold? (I noticed you used my 1GW/45000 years observation, for which I gave you +1 :-)) -
Emilio at 05:59 AM on 16 February 2012Water vapor is the most powerful greenhouse gas
If the temperature increases, the amount of water vapor should also increase (Clausius-Clapeyron law). Some graphs, however, seem to show that the humidity is decreasing http://www.climate4you.com/GreenhouseGasses.htm Could someone explain. Thanks in advance. -
Phila at 05:57 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Philippe, considering the quality (cough!) and the influence of Idso's miserable pile of nonsense, 6 figures is way overpaid. That's what really gets to me about this stuff. It's such a waste! If these people invested in, say, cleantech, they could earn valuable patents and popular and political goodwill, and provide a dramatic demonstration of the free-market principles they claim to cherish. People would probably be a lot less likely to begrudge them tax breaks, at that point. Or protest them. But jeez...giving all that money to Idso? As you say, he's not even any good at what he does. Seems to me they'd earn a better return on his annual income by taking it to Vegas and pumping it into the slots. -
actually thoughtful at 05:55 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Phila: "So in the interest of finding common ground, I'll just point out that the view you define here as "self-serving malarkey" seems to be the very same view you espoused upthread when you agreed that the leak is potentially good for humanity." You have an interesting way of finding common ground. I am giving up. In order to find common ground you have to want to have a discussion rather than stick to lecture mode. Valid points of view exist that are not your own. I hope folks made copies of those documents. I haven't been able to get to www.desmogblog for the last hour or so. AS others have noted, hopefully that means this is "going viral". -
Alexandre at 05:50 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Desmogblog still down, now with this message: "Desmog Blog is currently running scheduled maintenance. We should be back shortly. Thank you for your patience." A scheduled maintenance today seems a very unlikely coincidence, if you ask me. -
JohnMashey at 05:49 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
People might save themselves some time if they read the first 21 pages of Fake science, fakexperts, funny finances, free of tax. 1) The documents sure look real, they mesh perfectly with what I'd seen in 5 months' detailed study and much of that is documented in the massive appendices. The only one that even has the slightest possibility of fakery is the strategy doc, but it is certainly quite consistent also. The K-12 project seems an outgrowth of the education efforts documented in Fakery. 2) I have alleged that Heartland has been seriously breaking IRS tax law, specifically various provisions of 501(c)(3) public charity rules. Free speech lets people lie, but if you do it too much as a charity, you can have that status revoked, have to pay back taxes. Ignore the climate side: all their efforts on behalf of tobacco violate 501(c)(3). 3) Likewise, the US IRS frowns on a charity sending money abroad to non-charities ... and Heartland did that, certainly to CA and NZ, and almost certainly to Oz. -
Trent1492 at 05:47 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Anyone want to bet that we are shortly going to see a another batch of hacked e-mails from Hadley CRU released as a distraction? -
Phila at 05:44 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
AT< I certainly don't need you lecturing me on ethics. Emotional conjugation at its finest: I raise legitimate issues, she counsels, you lecture. Being as you're recommending self-awareness, perhaps you should consider the possibility that your initial post itself constituted a "lecture on ethics." I'm honestly not trying to be snarky or nasty here; I think this is a reasonable request. Sadly, that will sound very familiar, as that is the self-serving malarkey offered by the deniers to cover stealing documents and cherry picking the contents. I can see how it might sound familiar...provided you obdurately persist in ignoring the fact that one was a lie, and one wasn't. That the evidence supported one position, and not the other. And that virtually no one involved in slandering these scientists has ever issued a correction or an apology, even after they'd been exonerated by multiple inquiries. But yeah, other than that minor detail of totally unrepentant cherrypicking and misrepresentation and slander in service of an incoherent conspiracy theory for which no actual evidence has ever existed anywhere...it's pretty much the exact same thing. We seem to be on the same side, ultimately, and I wouldn't want to turn this thread into an argument with you even in the unlikely event that the moderators would allow it. So in the interest of finding common ground, I'll just point out that the view you define here as "self-serving malarkey" seems to be the very same view you espoused upthread when you agreed that the leak is potentially good for humanity. This suggests to me that you can, in fact, distinguish between leaking a Heartland document and stealing CRU's emails....even before the issue of representing the contents fairly arises. As for whether this actually was "done for the good of mankind," I don't think we know that yet. The leaker could simply have been angry at someone, for all I know. Regardless, as you note, it has the potential to "make a huge advance in the public's understanding of what is happening." And as you also note, that seems likely to be good for humanity. So it seems like we agree on the important points. A small acknowledgement that yes, the whistle blown documents were taken against the will of the document owner I think the word "leaked" provides precisely that acknowledgment. Even if it doesn't, have you seen any articles so far that don't acknowledge that these docs were released against the owner's will? 'Cause I haven't. I appreciate your acknowledgement that there is a moral issue worth discussing. Weirdly enough, I kind of thought I made that belief clear with my original comment. -
tonydunc at 05:42 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
Must say I love reading Elsa's posts. She is quite adept at getting attention and finding some point that she can use as a goad to create responses that she can then use to find another point in order to continue the game. Of course I never see her accepting that anything she thinks could be wrong or admitting that someone has adequately address her objection. I am impressed with the patience of those who engage with her. So I have a question for Elsa. Have you tried pitting your rhetorical skills against the leading theories of climate that do not have CO2 being the main forcing of climate through the increase of anthropogenic CO2? What about the accuracy of their models and predictions based on actual data. How well do their theories explain the paleodata- ice ages, LIA, MWP, and all the various other verifiable changes in climate and global/regional temp. It has been over 30 years since AGW has been mostly accepted as a concern by scientists. And 20 years since there was strong political pressure to deny AGW. Certainly Lindzen, Spencer, Christie, and others have a robust theory with predictions that can be forecast and hindcast and compared to AGW theory. And you can put your same questions to them, and then compare. Please advise of your conclusions regarding the alternate theory and where it is consistent and adequately accounts for all the actual data in every discipline that has data on climate. It shouldn't take very long. -
andylee at 05:39 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
I'm sure the site will be struggling to deal with the world's attention focussing on it right now. (AKA 'Slashdotted') They could have anticipated a 1000x increase in traffic and arranged for mirrors or extra servers to cope, but it is also conceivable that the Denialati have mobilised a DDOS too. Standard practice would be to release the docs as a torrent, making it extremely difficult to suppress. News is spreading quickly as various organizations are picking it up. -
Dennis at 05:38 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Re: are these real? The fact that Carter, Taylor and also Watts (over at Bishop Hill) have addressed these without challenging their authenticity certainly suggests that at least their information in them is accurate. Also worth thinking about is this: All the documents except the "Confidential Memo" appear to been PDF's generated via the computer applications they were composed on. The "confidential memo," however, looks like it was scanned. There's a graininess to the document and shadows to the margin typical of when one photocopies or scans the document. This, to me (OK, I read too many spy novels) is that this was deleted from the computer it was composed on and someone scanned a paper copy. That suggests an inside job; you had to have a physical copy. OK, before I start sounding like one of the climategate conspirators I'll stop. -
Sapient Fridge at 05:31 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Much to my amazement The Register wrote a fairly balanced article on this subject as well. They normally have a solidly anti-science "skeptic" stance written by Lewis Page and Andrew Orlowski (Wikipedia entry here) so I'm pleasantly suprised at them, for a change. -
Philippe Chantreau at 05:26 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Eric considering the quality (cough!) and the influence of Idso's miserable pile of nonsense, 6 figures is way overpaid. Then again, it's not clear that anyone at Heartland can actually appreciate the true quality of what he puts out. By their perception, it probably reads like pure gold. -
chris at 05:26 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
You are playing semantic games elsa, since you are using false logic (constructing a non sequitur) to arrive at a false conclusion (i.e. that "AGW is untestable in any meaningful way"). Since AGW is indeed testable, at the very least according to the well established and oft-repeated criteria I described in post #39, there's obviously something wrong with your logic (it's easy to see that the problem is a semantic flaw based on a false premise [*]). [*] The false premise being your "All we can do is use (iv) as a starting point, which really amounts to assuming that the theory is correct...", which is bogus. -
Philippe Chantreau at 05:23 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DeSmogBlog still doan as of 10.22 US Pacific time. Wonder what's going on. -
Dikran Marsupial at 05:14 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
elsa wrote "It also (as with most climate predictions) does not come up with a straightforward relationship between CO2 and temperature but a relationship between the change in CO2 and the change in temperature. Quite why that is I am never sure." If there are things that you don't understand, then just ask. There are plenty of knowledgable posters here would would be happy to explain. However if you repeatedly critise a theory based on your misunderstanding of the physics, and respond to the rebuttal of the criticism with another criticism it comes across as playing games or trolling. -
Dikran Marsupial at 05:09 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
elsa@46 As I said, try Fourier. Fourier knew that gasses could absorb what we would no call IR radiation. From this he inferred that these gasses in the atmosphere would cause the world to be warmer than it would otherwise be. That theory was not made on the basis of obervations of the Earths temperature, and IIRC not confirmed until the work of Arrhenius. "It also (as with most climate predictions) does not come up with a straightforward relationship between CO2 and temperature but a relationship between the change in CO2 and the change in temperature." Again your lack of understanding of climate physics is showing. The relationship between CO2 concentrations and radiative forcing is given. However the relationship between forcing and temperature (climate sensitivity) depends on a variety of other other factors, so it would be naive to expect a simple relationship between temperature and CO2 alone. If you are not intending to play semantic games, I suggest you revise your posting style as it is very much the impression you are giving. -
Bob Lacatena at 05:08 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
DeSmogBlog appears to be down. Anyone know why? Too much traffic? Denial-of-service attack? Black helicopter assault? -
DSL at 05:06 AM on 16 February 2012Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
elsa, do you now understand the difference between the Foster and Rahmstorf graph and the elevator graph? -
actually thoughtful at 05:04 AM on 16 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
Phila: "As I see it, an objection to leaks in this climate actually undermines the moral standards it attempts to invoke." I appreciate your acknowledgement that there is a moral issue worth discussing. If by "objections to leaks" you mean jail time for the whistle blower, I'm not sure I agree. I would like to think that were I in that person's shoes, I would have done the same thing (ie released the documents). I think ethically his/her position is very clear. By which I mean this person was forced to chose between "follow the law" and "follow the ethically correct thing" and their actions indicate they took the ethically correct path (made difficult by the opposition in law). And I don't know that what the whistle blower did is illegal - some great comments upthread defining whistle blower (in Australia at least) and laying out the possible illegal activities of the Heritage Foundation (which move the whistle blower to the legally safer area of blowing the whistle on illegal activities. In my life I have found great value is seeing the grey. That doesn't make me a "warmist" or any such thing, just allowing honorable opposition a face-saving way out. As for dishonorable opposition? Let them go the way of the Heritage Foundation (which, if there is any justice will be into well deserved oblivion). However, I can't imagine the people giving big money to the Heartland Foundation giving up - even if the Heritage Foundation falls (which is highly unlikely, given the folks who support them already know they are a crooked), this work will continue through a multi-headed guerrilla war style effort. Whether this is the tipping point or it is this + the next El Nino isn't know yet, but I remain optimistic (while recalling that there are still smokers even after all the lies were revealed).
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