Arguments
Recent Comments
Prev 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 Next
Comments 76801 to 76850:
-
scaddenp at 12:19 PM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
muon, if they are real skeptics as opposed to deep in denial, then they should be able to accept the challenge? If they cant take the challenge, then we have every reason to doubt the sincerity of their skepticism, and they have every reason to doubt the efficacy of their political beliefs for solving real world problems. I am only asking a hypothetical question - IF you were convinced... I think you should direct "skeptics" to take this challenge when you suspect their skepticism is actually political denial rather than scientific. On the other hand, you might see useful new thinking that would make a positive contribution to the debate on solutions. -
muoncounter at 12:18 PM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Badgersouth#18: " ... poppycock." Actually, I have to go with Camburn on this one (first time!) I worked for a company that had extensive deals with Enron before the bust; those were the anything-for-a-buck days. Washington Post, Jan 13, 2002 On Aug. 4, 1997, Lay and seven other energy executives met with Clinton, Gore, Rubin and other top officials at the White House to discuss the U.S. position at the upcoming conference on global warming in Kyoto, Japan. Lay, in a memo to Enron employees, said there was broad consensus in favor of an emissions-trading system. Enron officials later expressed elation at the results of the Kyoto conference. An internal memo said the Kyoto agreement, if implemented, would "do more to promote Enron's business than almost any other regulatory initiative outside of restructuring the energy and natural gas industries in Europe and the United States." -
schmoepooh at 12:10 PM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
I see Prof. Denning as somewhat naive in his approach. A bit of a read of the psychology of belief will show that most people hold beliefs for all sorts of reasons and rationality is mainly used for post hoc rationalisation and pursuasion. Perhaps it is justified "just for the record" but his use of the "free market" "libertarian" discourse is seriously misguided. When it comes to scientific facts and the most effective solutions, "left" and "right" do not refer to scientific solutions, they refer to political solutions. Politics will play its part but lets not confuse the two. -
muoncounter at 12:04 PM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
scaddenp#21: "You aren't going to convince them ..." Phil, they have already convinced themselves. I don't want to rain on this parade, but: Look at Heartland's environment page. These folks are in deep denial, but physics doesn't care. The global warming scare has fizzled. The sun has entered a new “quiet” phase, and average global temperatures have been stable for 15 years. Look at American Enterprise's page on Energy and Environment. They're even against energy efficiency!: When you dig into proposed "efficiency" measures, you find that usually, there's a good reason why someone has chosen not to perfectly insulate their house, or use fluorescent lights, or drive a compact car, or use a clothes dryer rather than hang their clothes out to dry. Look at Heritage Foundation's Energy and Environment page. The science behind global warming is anything but certain, but one thing is certain: The policies to cap carbon dioxide and mandate “clean” energy production are very expensive. And these are the 'think tanks'. Don't look for any kind of forward-looking leadership to come from this camp; they are only interested in the money they make here and now (well, they will probably get inheritance taxes reduced so their kids will be as fat and happy as they are). When it gets really hot, they'll just turn up the AC. -
scaddenp at 11:17 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
please, please, do not use thread for criticizing the right. You aren't going to convince them and doesnt add anything constructive. I would ask the moderators to please rule that comments that are primarily criticism or defense of a particular political stance as opposed to discussion of proposed solutions as breach of "no politics" Comments Policy. -
John Hartz at 10:48 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
AGW has been caused by mankind's activities (primarily the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation)s ince the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Thus, the actions of numerous prior generations throughout the world collectvely created a global problem. The soultions therefore must be collectively created and applied world-wide Collective action is anathma to many Libertarians and right wing-nuts in the US. We waste our time and energy trying to find ways to accommodate their ideologically-driven belief systems. -
Don Gisselbeck at 10:43 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Free Market Capitalism has no mechanism for dealing with long-term existential threats. Its response to overfishing is to continue to overfish. Its response to the threat of a major asteroid strike would be straight out of the Onion http://www.theonion.com/articles/republicans-vote-to-repeal-obamabacked-bill-that-w,19025/. Do we want to survive? Probably not. -
John Hartz at 10:35 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
@Camburn #2: You state: "The idea of Cap and Trade was started by Enron, endorsed by Goldman Sachs. It was looked at as a money making scheme with government blessings. Goldman Sachs had thought they had found a new gold mine with this." This statement is poppycock. -
Tom Curtis at 10:33 AM on 22 August 2011CO2 effect is saturated
Guinganbresil @173, I'm sorry but you are confusing two issues. The first issue is whether or not there is an enhanced greenhouse effect. The second is will the climate response to an enhanced greenhouse effect result in a net negative or positive feedback. The important point from Haries is that he shows beyond reasonable doubt that there is an enhanced greenhouse effect. Adding more CO2 to the atmosphere will introduce a positive forcing to the temperature, and it is known independently that that forcing is 3.7 W/m^2 for a doubling of CO2 with low uncertainty. Having established that, and this is another of those areas of settled science in climate change; the question becomes, "What is the climate sensitivity?", and we must look to independent evidence for that. Suffice it to say that a range of empirical evidence including recent observations and paleoclimate observations show that the climate sensitivity for a doubling of CO2 is around 3 degrees.
Given that you need to look at the likely impacts of such a climate sensitivity. Ignore the impacts for 450 ppm (the current notional limit on CO2 increases for the international community). Rather consider the business as usual (A2) scenario for the end of this century, which will result in over 800 ppm of CO2. At 800 ppm, even with a climate sensitivity of 1.5 degrees C per doubling of CO2, the Earth's temperature will rise over 2 degrees C. At 2 degrees C there is an expected 50/50 chance that the Great Barrier Reef will be destroyed. At 2 degrees C there is an expected 50/50 chance that the Amazon Rainforest will be destroyed. And these are not on/of states. Even if they survive they will survive in severally degraded conditions.
That level of ecosystem collapse is not consistent with a flourishing civilization. If our civilization survives that level of ecosystem collapse, it will be a hard, unpleasant skin of our teeth affair.
And that is for a climate sensitivity so low that we have a less than 1 in 20 chance of being that lucky. More likly we will be looking at a 4.5 degree increase, an increase of the same order as the difference between glacial and interglacial temperatures, and which will have similarly large impacts on ecosystems and habitability.
As an aside, the anvil head thunderstorm does negate the effect of CO2 over the region of the thunderstorm, but only by imposing a much stronger greenhouse effect.
-
Dave123 at 10:21 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
rpauli- Species survival? Your typical right winger will respond that the species will survive and adapt....it's our civilization I want to preserve as much of as possible. -
It's waste heat
mullumhillbilly - The only way for energy to leave the Earth climate is as thermal radiation. All else is just re-arrangements of the energy within the climate. Thermal radiation leaves any object at a rate determined by (a) temperature, and (b) the ability of the surface to radiate at that temperature. Please see this Thermal Radiation wiki for an overview. Without GHG's, the surface of the Earth radiating at an emissivity of 0.98 (98% of theoretic max efficiency, as dirt and water are very effective emitters of IR) would be able to match incoming energy at a temperature of ~255K, or -18C. That would be cold. GHG's absorb IR, re-radiate a great deal back to the surface, and most importantly, as GHG concentrations increase, the effective level in the atmosphere where IR can escape is higher and (due to the lapse rate) colder. Therefore less IR escapes at GHG frequencies at any particular temperature. In order to radiate as much energy as is incoming, the Earth has to be warmer. See the following:
The smooth curve shows what a 'blackbody' could emit. The notches are where GHG's reduce radiation at any particular temperature.
In order to radiate the same energy as the blackbody, the integrated area of the jagged curve must match the area of the smooth one, and hence the entire curve must be higher - the temperature of the emitting body (in this case the Earth) must be higher to scale it up. In this case, as observed, about 15C. Then outgoing matches incoming energy.
---
If this is not comprehensible, I strongly suggest doing some reading on the basics of the radiative greenhouse effect. There's tons of information out there for you.
-
barry1487 at 09:55 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Dave @ 34. I love that theory, but I think it's more like culturally reinforced cognitive inertia. At some point they just tune out when the counter-information weighs too heavily (convincingly) against their perceptions. To quote Dikran;The whole point of laying out the steps one by one was to make the argument as easy to definitively refute as possible - but no takers. ...unwillingness to engage with analogies, or to take up challenges... ...No answer was ever given... ...if truth seeking were the aim, you would have thought they would have been eager to answer, but no
Dikran, you speak my experience exactly. The better you make your case, the less willing they are to engage. But we keep trying there, reaching across the abyss and looking into it. Brrrr. I hate using the word, but maybe denialism is really the most apt. Or rejectionism. -
r.pauli at 09:54 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Wait...You aren't really presenting a premise of Adapt OR Mitigate? Are you? Because all the science that I see here and with IPCC models suggests that we face 2 degrees of warming no matter what we do. And now we perilously flirt with runaway tipping points - and all the interesting scientific doubt I see is about whether it is too late to do anything about it. Multigenerational survival requires co-ordinated adaptation combined with mitigation. The political Right and other irrational fringe groups has already foisted politics of distraction based on religion, wishful-thinking and hyper-carbonized materialist greed. The question should not be posed to the right wing deniers - rather a question falls on the majority of the population who know the science and know the inevitable impact to all humans (of any political and religious stripe) - the question is: How do we change? How do we handle the political obstacles that block necessary change? The question is for those who intend to survive. It is not theirs to obstruct, it is ours to face. They will not ever entertain such questions. The ultimate question is have we as a species decided that we want to survive? -
muoncounter at 09:37 AM on 22 August 2011It's waste heat
mullumhillbilly#82: "GHG only operate to trap (delay) the flow when the sun is not shining. " Really? Doesn't the warming surface radiate IR during the daytime? If not, why not? How do the GHG molecules know what time of day it is? -
Tom Curtis at 09:33 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
scaddenp @14, well yes, but if I bite my tongue any harder I won't have one by this afternoon. -
scaddenp at 09:12 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
PaulD, arguing whether the left or right is wrong isn't going to help. I would prefer this discussion didnt descend into arguing about politics. What we want to see is solutions that the Right wing think palatable. Camburn is stepping up to the plate and it would be a shame to get distracted. -
mullumhillbilly at 09:10 AM on 22 August 2011It's waste heat
KR@81 >It's not a matter of "energy taking more hours to leave", it's a matter of how fast energy can leave. So "fast" has nothing to do with time? I agree there is near-ground early-evening warming, and I think I understand the essentials of the emissivity picture, S-B & T^4 etc, but the clock is still a factor. If the heat energy is not accumulating daily (on average at the rate of 100:1 GHG energy:combustion energy if you agree with Flanner 2009), then climate sensitivity is not as high as you think it is. Raising the edge of the bucket in a waterfall is not a good analogy because you are talking about continuous flow, whereas GHG only operate to trap (delay) the flow when the sun is not shining.Response:[DB] "whereas GHG only operate to trap (delay) the flow when the sun is not shining"
You are considerably in error on this; GHG's do their thing 24/7/365, rain/shine/by dark of night.
-
Paul D at 08:13 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
scaddenp in article said: "As far as I can see, libertarian theory struggles with issues where the free action of many individuals results in a violation of the rights of another." Well that is the problem with the libertarian idealism, it works as an intellectual discussion (like all politics) but fails because science tells us that animals don't live as individuals. Humans are manipulated by their peers and hence act as 'many'. Even at the most simple level such as crowd behaviour, this is true. Geez, if we didn't act as many, then most commercial corporations wouldn't be able to function. Big supermarkets would have the wrong food in stock at nay given time. -
garethman at 08:11 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
34. Dave 123, Much appreciated! It makes sense now. -
Doug Mackie at 08:05 AM on 22 August 2011Settled Science - Humans are Raising CO2 Levels
@29: I am glad you asked. Indeed a huge part of the CO2 is 'missing' from the atmosphere. Here is a quote from our post here at SkS from just a few days ago:
Where has it gone? Simple: Into the ocean. Evidence? The
observed pH decrease is caused by CO2 forming carbonic acid (H2CO3).
And see also our list from Skeptical Science that shows why we know the CO2 is from human actions.
-
garethman at 08:05 AM on 22 August 2011Polar bear numbers are increasing
I agree with you CB on the habitat loss issue, we should not stand by and let it happen. But I also cannot stand idly by while thousands of bears are shot by “sportsmen” If the population exploded after unlicensed unregulated hunting stopped, we see how hunting can effect a species. Maybe licensed hunting does not impact as much as unlicensed, but it has not preserved fish stocks in Europe and I don’t see why bears will be any different in the long run. If they are endangered, they don’t need the extra pressures on their population. For me, (and this I know is more personal than referenced), it does not make sense to talk about a threatened species, and support hunting it at a high level at the same time. ( -Snip- )Response:[DB] Moderation complaints snipped.
-
Paul D at 08:02 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
I actually disagree there is a left or right stance on the climate change issue. The science is clear and is independent of politics. What both the left and right have to do is act on the science, how the right or left achieve this is their problem. Do not forget that both 'western' political ideologies grew out of the industrial revolution, so by definition 'capitalism' and 'socialism' resulted in high GHGs and caused climate change. Ideally we need new politics and new economics, whether this will happen is questionable, the second best option is to radically change the existing ideologies. -
Paul D at 07:55 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Chris@6 said: "I once engaged a libertarian who objected to the US health care act largely on the grounds that, as it stood at the time, it would have forced individuals to buy insurance or pay tax penalties, and he felt that, as a young and healthy individual, it should be his choice whether to buy insurance or not." This self reliance stuff is largely bull and in any case is based on a particular culture (Anglo-saxon and specifically American). What would this person do if his parents ran into financial trouble in retirement, just ignore them?? Most people are 'forced' to do something, it really is no big deal and libertarians should quit being two faced and start being realistic. -
Utahn at 07:28 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Camburn, how would you get those reactors online? That, I am afraid, is the rub... -
scaddenp at 07:21 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Camburn, what measures do you propose that would advance an increase in such technologies? (ie what are the barriers and how would you reduce them?). "Part of the reason that you see USA co2 emissions declining is the recession. But a larger part is increases in effiencies of energy consumption." Can you back that assertion please? How much reduction do think efficiency can bring you? -
DSL at 07:16 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Yes, Arch, I've noted your moniker around the climate blogosphere--at the good places, and the bad and ugly ones as well. It's always hard to tell what's underneath the rocks at some of these places. Often, it all adds up to a blank, and people shooting from the hip turn out to be in thrall to the ecstasy of gold. The basics are pretty simple; one doesn't need a pair of angel eyes to understand it. I've been wanting to get that out of my system for months (since the 3rd of February *wink*). -
arch stanton at 06:21 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
I agree that both R Gates and Denning deserve medals. I have no patience for Anthony’s. I have used “arch stanton” at many places on the ‘net and the only time arch’s email was ever spammed (and phished) was the day after I had a run in with the mods at wuwt (I had lost my cool with “smokey”). My hat is off to Gates and also the folks here that can keep their patience as they counter the same untruths time after time. -
muoncounter at 06:05 AM on 22 August 2011How does global warming affect polar bears?
Etr#5: "we do not know if the recent warming has affected the polar bears in a positive or negative way. " No one has proposed any ways that warming benefits polar bears (wait until oil exploration is big time in the Arctic; that'll sure be good for 'em). The question is no effect or a growing negative one. It's looking like we'll be finding out very soon. Now you have to choose: Do nothing or do something. Choose wisely. -
Alexandre at 05:47 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Chris G at 05:17 AM on 22 August, 2011 You said: The only way I see is to make fuels which produce GHGs more expensive that ones that don't. I don't see any other alternative that would be as effective or would allow for more market freedom than your suggestion. Internalize the externality and let the market creativity sort it out. There will be no market for great solutions if causing the externality is free. -
Bob Lacatena at 05:34 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
2, Camburn, Economics... so you're counting on a huge, global depression to keep CO2 levels below 570 ppm? Efficiencies... so you're counting on some technology to just appear, without free trade pressures amidst an environment of cheap, heavily entrenched fossil fuel infrastructure, to keep CO2 levels below 570 ppm? Both of these answers are more "oh, don't worry, the problem will solve itself eventually". Sorry, your answers are a complete failure. -
Bob Lacatena at 05:27 AM on 22 August 2011A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
84, ETR,...during the past several decades.
Read what I actually wrote. Your comment is a case in point. The constant Those-Who-Deny-AGW-But-Aren't-Deniers-In-Any-Other-Sense (TWDAGWBADIAOS, for short) straw man is to talk about what has happened recently and ignore the future, or to hold it up as some sort of argument against what a very different future might hold.Sphaerica seems to be using as a distraction the remote possibility that their ecosystem might be effectively destroyed. That is pure speculation, not supported by scientific research. Obviously, if the Arctic turned tropical...
"As a distraction?" What's that supposed to mean (outside of just being an out and out personal insult meant to belittle me and my statements)? "Remote possibility?" That we're destroying the Arctic? Are you kidding me? "Pure speculation, not supported by scientific research?" "Turned tropical?" Oh? Your "scientifically supported" contention is that unless palm trees grow on the Arctic shores, polar bears will be just fine? Really? No, you use "it hasn't happened yet, so don't worry" as a "distraction" from the gravity of the issue. As far as your claims about scientific research... well, hounding such a researcher out of his position is hardly a good start. But I don't think it takes rocket science or a whole lot of research to recognize that accelerating Arctic ice melt is going to do destroy that ecosystem (as it is defined for polar bears). Of course, if you need to wait 35 years (as you do) just to "buy into" the idea that climate change is happening... Sigh. I'm tired of you, Eric. It's always the same story... wait and see, it's not happening, and don't worry yet (until it's actually bad that it's too late). -
Eric the Red at 05:20 AM on 22 August 2011How does global warming affect polar bears?
As CB stated on a separate thread, the polar bear population increased from ~5000 in 1964 to ~25,000 today, largely due to hunting restriction. The decrease prior to 1964 was due to unrestricted hunting. This has clearly been a much more significant influence on polar bear populations than the recent warming, especially since polar bear populations are currently stable (within measurement uncertainty). Unfortunately for CB, his claim that just because there is no evidence that climate change has had a negative impact means that climate change has not impacted polar bears. The problem is that human interactions have swamped any potential climatic effect. Neither Muller's claim of no polar bears dying due to global warming, nor other claims of polar bears dying due to global warming can be verified at present. That does not immediately falsify either of those arguments, as some have contended on this and other threads. Even the studies to which muon linked show no statistical difference in polar bear numbers in their studies. The only correlation was the decreased survival of sub-adult bears, although increased human contact could not be ruled out as a cause. In short, we do not know if the recent warming has affected the polar bears in a positive or negative way. Contact with man is known to have negative consequences. -
Chris G at 05:17 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Nice summary in the challenge, but I would not hold my breath waiting for a sensible answer. I once engaged a libertarian who objected to the US health care act largely on the grounds that, as it stood at the time, it would have forced individuals to buy insurance or pay tax penalties, and he felt that, as a young and healthy individual, it should be his choice whether to buy insurance or not. When I finally pinned him down to _if_ he was in a major accident or got cancer, which would result in treatment costs beyond his ability to pay, who did he think should pay for his care? His response was something to the effect that he was willing to run that risk. What risk? If something bad happens to him, someone else has to pay for it. So much for the libertarian ideal of personal responsibility. Humans are feeling creatures that think, not thinking creatures that feel. Strong feelings often get in the way of rational thought, and it is rare that the person with strong feelings will be convinced to change his course through reason. Still, it is a good question to ask because it can help bystanders see which side has a rational argument. We are at an unfortunate intersection of a commons problem and the other golden rule - those that have the gold make the rules. Camburn, Alexandre, I agree, with the exception that I make no personal claim as to the most effective alternative, or combination of alternatives. I must have a little libertarian in me because I'm willing to let the market sort that out. Economics will drive the masses where no amount of information or brow-beating will. The only way I see is to make fuels which produce GHGs more expensive that ones that don't. The delays caused by the "debate" serve the purposes of those that have the gold. It might be that the public will not endorse policy changes until the majority understand that the current policy serves those that have fossil fuel interests more than it serves them. The fossil fuel people are not stupid. They see this, which is why we have green-washing of FF companies, fear campaigns of economic catastrophes if we quit buying their goods, and merchants of doubt. Oh, sorry for the length; this topic must have struck a nerve. -
CV2 at 05:16 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
There are many solutions, but some fear that discussing real solutions will lessen the pressure to do something now. It's an odd political conundrum on the blasphemer/true believer scale. Here is one of the new literally melt-down proof nuclear plants. On a political level it has been known to separate watermelons from independent minds. http://gt-mhr.ga.com/ -
michael sweet at 04:57 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
Camburn, How many thorium reactors have actually been built? Why don't you propose a solution that we can start on today? -
Dave123 at 04:55 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Dikran, You're not thinking magically. The Sink is specific to anthropogenic CO2 and the source is connected to mystical natural cycles that are beyond human understanding. There's an intelligence that turns on the sink, in order to fulfill the biblical promise of no more floods (I find the argument that G* promised not to destroy the Earth again after the flood applied to human actions particularly painful when I run across it), corrects for human action, but doesn't tamper with the natural cycle accourding to the Divine plan set down years ago. This imaginary intelligent action is why they start talking about intelligent actors doing things to the bank accounts in their attempts to refute you....that was the clue to me that they have a specific neutralizing response to ACO2 You are in essence arguing a theology with them. -
SocialBlunder at 04:49 AM on 22 August 2011Antarctica is gaining ice
I was recently quoted Ian Joughin and Slawek Tulaczyk 2002 as proof that WAIS is gaining ice. In the article I read that the sheet is marine based, but grounded, so does that count as land ice? Also, the the third to the last paragraph the article indicates that it is only about the Ross ice streams: “This analysis covers only the Ross Sea sector of the ice sheet, and negative imbalances are observed in other areas of West Antarctica such as Pine Island and Thwaites Glaciers.” Is that why there isn't any conflict between that article's gaining ice conclusion and the GRACE 2002-2009 data showing land ice loss?Response:[DB] The WAIS is in negative mass-balance. While the interior of the EAIS is gaining mass, its edges are losing mass sufficient to put the EAIS overall into negative mass-balance. Now that negative could be as little as 5 Gt/yr or as much as 67 Gt/yr (IIRC).
Antarctic sea ice is gaining some in the metrics of area and extent, but this is an expected response to increased precipitation to the warming of its circumpolar current.
The PIG and Thwaites are the linch-pin to the WAIS; without their stabilizing presence, ice flow rates will accelerate greatly.
-
Dave123 at 04:46 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Garethman, Well everthing above absolute zero emits heat. Any given atom or molecule can acquire via collision enough energy to knock an electron into a upper orbital, from which decay emits a photon, in this case an infrared photon, otherwise called, albeit misleadingly, 'heat'. Regardless, then whether a given CO2 molecule in the air has even picked up an IR photon or not, it can be energized by random collisions to an excited state where it radiates in the IR region. The freqency of the photons is governed by the modes of bending and stretching that the CO2 molecule has, and the intensity of emissions is governed by the air temperature. The higher the temperature the greater the frequency IR photon emissions. The response to temperature is governed by the Stephan-Boltzman distribution. This is all highly probably in common temperatures. The reason that CO2 emits and O2 and N2 don't is that the lowest excited state for those gases is much, much more energetic than for CO2, so the odds of a molecule of oxygen or nitrogen acquiring enough energy in the atmosphere at ordinary temperatures is many orders of magnitude smaller. (I could look up the constants and do the math...but I don't think it's necessary for understanding. Understandable? Let me know. -
Dikran Marsupial at 04:42 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Dave123 I really don't understand the difficulty "skeptics" have with the mass balance argument, the funny things is that it is true whatever the mechansim governing the behaviour of the natural carbon cycle. With the mechanism you suggest, the natural environment would still be a net sink and the mass balance argument would demonstrate that to be the case. The real thing though that prevents useful discussion is the unwillingness to engage with analogies, or to take up challenges (essentially giving a hint of what they would need to show to prove me wrong - how more helpfull could I be?). I made several on that thread and none were taken up. Or to answer direct questions (for instance I asked one respondant repeatedly that given they had accepted the natural environment is a net sink, how can it be the source of the rise. No answer was ever given. I pointed out this question would help me understand their point of view, so if truth seeking were the aim, you would have thought they would have been eager to answer, but no!. -
Alexandre at 04:35 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
garethman at 04:22 AM on 22 August, 2011 The source of heat is (almost) entirely solar, as Denning said. Greenhouse gases absorb and re-emit the infrared photons. -
Dave123 at 04:31 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
Dikran, I took a look a the Carbon-Dioxide Balance thread on WUWT and I think I've identified the cognitive issue a couple of the people have- the ones going on about needing to know all the flows between compartments in detail They've got an implicit mechanism in mind, that they won't spell out because they also internally know it sounds ridiculous... something like this....Athropogenic CO2 (ACO2) is 'different' from natural CO2 (it is of course by isotope ratio), but more by magical thinking. They imagine a special unknown sink for ACO2 that comes into operation when ACO2 comes into existence and it soaks up all the ACO2. Then there's a source (also unspecified)that for climastrological reasons just happens to start pumping out something around 1/2 of the ACO2 levels at an increasing rate. The sink for ACO2 comes and goes as ACO2 comes and goes.... but the climastrological product of natural CO2 going into the system is now turned on and won't stop just because we stop burning fossil fuels. And response to has been in many cases, prove that you've accounted for everything, that the 'intelligent design' for an ACO2 sink doesn't exist, that there isn't a climastrological source that's putting in fossil CO2 ...putting you in the box of proving a negative. That's what I think is going on, and why they don't buy your mass balance. But they'll never say so directly, or own the responsibility of naming the sink and source that the rest of the world missed finding. That's partly what they mean by it being too complex to figure out as well....it's a way of ducking the responsibility to name the sinks and sources. Magical thinking. -
Alexandre at 04:31 AM on 22 August 2011Settled Science - Humans are Raising CO2 Levels
Hi MP3CE, I did not check your figures, but you should be going for ppmv (parts per million by volume), instead of mass. -
garethman at 03:27 AM on 22 August 2011Scott Denning: Reaching Across the Abyss
I think R.Gates deserves a medal, or at least an R.Gates club for people who dare. Maybe Scott Denning would have membership card number 1. -
garethman at 03:21 AM on 22 August 2011A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
My response to CBDunkerson has also gone in that direction http://www.skepticalscience.com/How-does-global-warming-affect-polar-bears.html -
MP3CE at 03:20 AM on 22 August 2011Settled Science - Humans are Raising CO2 Levels
Hello all ! I have one question regarding CO2 emisions: Well when I calculate CO2 emisions from mass (31 GT according to source here should be mass 31E+12 kg) and mass of atmosphere according to wikipedia (5.14E+18 kg, source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth#Density_and_mass ), I get about 6 ppm instead of 4 mentioned here. What I am missing or doing wrong here ? -
Alexandre at 03:20 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
I agree, Camburn. The effort to deal with denialist crap (I would not deign to call it "arguments", let alone "scientific arguments") effectively prevents the debate to reach what really matters at this point: policy and technological solutions. -
garethman at 03:19 AM on 22 August 2011How does global warming affect polar bears?
85 CB Dunkerson. Think about your logic here. If Polar bear are endangered, why is it OK to shoot so many per year? If you think shooting 700 bears per year in just one country is OK, it rather undermines your concern for the welfare of an animal you claim is endangered, especially when you say hunting is nowhere near as much of a problem as climate change when you freely admit there is no reliable data to support such a claim at present. I’m afraid it’s opinions like this which give climate science a bad name. Your views on climate change appear to be based on good science,I am puzzled as to why you are so blinkered on this issue. Bears may well be threatened in the longer term by the loss of Arctic ice, but the reality is that they are threatened here and now by shooting. Or is it OK to reduce the population because they are going to suffer under climate change regardless? I must confess, your logic on this one is very strange. . If a species is endangered it’s OK to shoot them and reduce the population by many thousands, as long as we understand why they are endangered in the long run ? The only way out of such an impasse is to say, well they are not endangered at present, so it’s OK to shoot them. But does that not then impact on your original idea of bears starving and drowning with a fall in population due to climate change? You cannot have it both ways.Or are you saying the effects of climate change are bad, but lets shoot them anyway? Mullers claim about not a single bear having died from the effects of climate change is odd. How can he know that? We don’t know how every bear dies, so we don’t know whether that is correct or not. We just know that there is no direct evidence at present. It is a recurring theme that just because we know that there are long term negative effects from climate change, we tend to overlook the here and now dangers impacting our environment. ps, Neither of your links “disprove” anything, or make statements “blatantly false” What they do is draw strong correlations between a reduction in some populations and melting ice, which I think you will agree, is different. By the way, the links also contradict some of the points in your own posts. Apologies for the length of the post -
Camburn at 02:43 AM on 22 August 2011GHG emission mitigation solutions - a challenge for the Right?
A major solution is so obvious, yet is met with so much resistance. 1. Thorium reactors. Cap and Trade: The idea of Cap and Trade was started by Enron, endorsed by Goldman Sachs. It was looked at as a money making scheme with government blessings. Goldman Sachs had thought they had found a new gold mine with this. What you fail to discuss here is economics. Economics, in and off itself, will dictate lowered energy consumption. Part of the reason that you see USA co2 emissions declining is the recession. But a larger part is increases in effiencies of energy consumption. -
snapple at 02:26 AM on 22 August 2011Settled Science - Humans are Raising CO2 Levels
Hopefully. the fact that both the Kremlin's Russia Today English-language TV and the Russian Geographical Society did not mention Kapitsa's claim that warming causes a rise in CO2 shows that the Russian political and scientific officials don't want to be associated with this ignorant theory any longer. During Climategate, Russian scientists were mostly silent. Only one--Professor Sergei Kirpotin of Tomsk State University--said that the Climategate hacking was a provocation against the Copenhagen meeting. Kirpotin's words were only reported on the Russian Greenpeace site, not in a major Russian paper or in English. Still, only a few famous scientists in Russia denied global warming; but these were given access to the media in English. I think Kirpotin was brave. He spoke truth to power, and hopefully, Russian politicians will respect his sense of responsibility to his country and the world. President Medvedev is no longer calling global warming a trick. He says it is happening. Perhaps he now realizes that climate change is not a "trick." Still, all the Russians have right now is gas and Gazprom pays the bills. I write about Sergei Kirpotin on my blog pretty often. He said the theft of the CRU emails was a "provocation" that was clearly "ordered" by someone in order to create doubts about the science behind the theory of global warming. http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2010/01/tomsk-scientist-sergei-kirpotin-has-few.html -
guinganbresil at 02:21 AM on 22 August 2011CO2 effect is saturated
Tom Curtis: Excellent response! Thanks! My apparent criticism of the spectral work of Harries and others is not that they didn't demonstrate a change in the spectrum of outgoing radiation due to increasing CO2. They clearly did. My objection is in the phrase "and therefore the greenhouse effect..." The change in a spectral component of the OLR does not directly translate into a global temperature change - the total behavior of the OLR must be impacted to affect the energy balance. I would agree if all else remained constant. - athough that is not very physical... For example, you can see that a slight increase in the average frequency, duration, altitude or size of thunderstorms (see your third graph @170 (excellent by the way!)) would easily offset any changes in CO2 - they have a much wider band, much higher brightness temperature at the high end of the variation, very large swing in the effect on the spectrum. Are you aware of any analyses of experimental data that would put this to rest? This is a foundational aspect of AGW theory, and it would be a little weak to rely entirely on assertion or models...
Prev 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 Next
