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Comments 90251 to 90300:

90251. ginckgo at 15:49 PM on 1 April 2011
       Understanding Solar Evolution Part 2: Planets
       Regarding the cap carbonates, there's an article by Greg Retallack (Neoproterozoic loess and limits to snowball Earth), in which he argues that at least the Aussie Nuccaleena Formation is actually a subaerial loess deposit, and therefor nothing to do with the termination of Snowball Earth, and by extension don't support CO2 as a major player in terminating these ice ages. I asked my old Lecturers at Adelaide Uni who worked on these formations for comment, and they were less than complimentary about the science - apparently it had been previously roundly rejected by peer review. So, just in case someone brings this article up to 'debunk' CO2's role, the article is apparently not very solid.
90252. CBDunkerson at 15:38 PM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       MidwestHES wrote: "The exact same thing that is happening with the debate on AGCD happened with the debate on the Ozone hole, starting in the early 1970's...The same groups and people that are denying this denied that as well." My favorite example of this is Will Happer's constant complaint that 'Al Gore fired me for disagreeing with him on global warming'.... but if you go back to news articles at the time his claim was, 'Al Gore fired me for disagreeing with him on ozone depletion'. It's not just the same people using the same sort of misinformation campaigns... it's even the same events (if it ever happened at all) retroactively re-written for a new topic.
90253. Tom Curtis at 15:20 PM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       I am unsure if this is the best place for this comment. However: One piece of data that Dr Humlum presents is the correlation between global temperatures and the angular velocity of the Earth's rotation (or the inverse of the length of the day). Humlum comments:

       "The length of day (LOD) as shown above are subject to variations due to variations in oceanic tides (smaller than 0.03 ms in absolute value), variations in the atmospheric circulation, and to internal effects and to transfer of angular momentum to the Moon orbital motion. Also the dynamical influence of the liquid core of the earth may account for slow variations, but then generally expressed as overall long-term trends (Akoi et al. 1982). The above diagrams show that periods with relatively high planetary rotation velocity (and low LOD) tend to be associated with relatively warm periods, and vice versa. Good examples are the peak of LOD in the early 20th century, concurrent with the last cold spell of The Little Ice Age and the loss of Titanic. Also the cold period 1965-1977 was associated with long day length (high LOD) and low planetary angular velocity. The generally increasing rotation velocity of Earth (and decreasing LOD) since then has taken place along with the period of late 20th century warming. Variations in LOD has also been associated with the Atmospheric Circulation Index (ACI) and variations in commercial catches of different fish species. Some of these associations are thoroughly described and discussed by Klyashtorin and Lyubushin (2007)."

       Given the fact that some deniers claim there is a causal connection between the Length of the Day and global temperatures, with changes in the LOD causing changes in global temperatures, it is questionable that there is no discussion of (or mention of) glacial mass balance in the same context. Looking closely at the LOD signal, it is very plain that there is a seasonal signal. The Earth has a longer day (ie, it spins slower) in the Northern Hemisphere winter. The cause of this is easy to attribute - snow. In the NH winter, large areas of the Earth are covered by a thick blanket of snow. The snow is, in the summer, found in the oceans, but in the winter it is found on land, and hence (on average) at several hundred meters greater altitude. Because of conservation of momentum, this shift of mass slows the Earth's spin, and hence lengthens the day. The annual trend in changes of the LOD have similar magnitude to the seasonal variations. (The change in the 37 month mean of the LOD from 1972 to 2009 was approximately 0.003 seconds, while the seasonal variation has a range of about 0.0015 seconds.) It is also not a monotonic trend. Therefore whatever the cause, we do not expect the Earth to shed and regain angular momentum, but rather only to shed and regain angular velocity. This means the cause must involve changes in the relative locations of significant masses. As hinted at above, the larges temperature correlated change in distribution of masses at the Earth's surface is the change in glacial mass balances. As glaciers melt, the melt water finds itself either directly or indirectly in the sea, thus redistributing the mass by up to 10,000 km towards the Earths axis. Because tropical glaciers can be involved in this mass redistribution, the relative size of the effect for a given mass moved should be larger than the seasonal snowfall effect as tropical and subtropical glaciers are further from the Earth's axis of rotation. Following are the changes in mass balance for non-polar glaciers, and for Greenland. Clearly it would be very difficult to predict the change in the LOD from known changes in glacial mass balance, but it appears to me that the pattern in those changes can be seen as a long term trend driven by loss of mountain glaciers, modulated by the changes in Greenland's mass balance. The changes in Greenland's mass balance are, of course larger than the changes in mountain glaciers in absolute terms, but Greenland is much closer to the axis of rotation.
90254. Tom Curtis at 14:46 PM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       Rob Honeycutt @5, I am uncertain about the effects of snowdrifts on GISP2. The reason I object to using GISP2 (or any Greenland ice core) as a global proxy (above and beyond my more general objections against using any local proxy as a global proxy) is that Greenland dO18 is known to be unusually variable because of the North Atlantic Oscillation. In one mode of the NAO, the prevailing winds carry warm air onto Greenland from the Atlantic. In the other mode, it carries cold wind from the arctic. As I understand it, the O18 concentrations in precipitation are a function of the temperature of the water from which the water vapour originally evaporated, and the intervening atmospheric temperatures, and the temperature at the location of precipitation, the upshot is that dO18 gives a record of a regional temperature rather than a site specific temperature. This means that in one mode of the NAO, Greenland ice cores give a record of the temperature across the northern Atlantic and Greenland, while in the other mode, they give a record of temperatures across the Arctic and Greenland. Thus they will exhibit a greater variability than the actual local Greenland temperatures themselves; and a far greater variability than most other local temperature records.
90255. muoncounter at 13:33 PM on 1 April 2011
       Sea level rise: coming to a place near you
       The mighty Tamino strikes again, with an excellent debunk of a new paper that touts no acceleration in sea level rise. An eye-grabber is this figure: According to this, the recent rate of sea level rise is greater than its average value since 1930. Significantly so (in the statistical sense), even using a conservative estimate of autocorrelation. But the increase itself hasn’t been steady, so the sea level curve hasn’t followed a parabola, most of the increase has been since about 1980. Once again, a long term uptrend, with a noticeable change in the late 70's-early 80's. The rate of increase increases. Kind of a deja vu all over again.
90256. Marcus at 13:26 PM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       That's correct SoundOff, that's why there was an Ozone hole over Antarctica.
90257. Glenn Tamblyn at 13:21 PM on 1 April 2011
       Temp record is unreliable
       garythompson @155 The station list you present looks like it is from a point in the northern Norwegian Sea. Don't forget this map is for land & ocean index, not just land. the predominant data for that region would be ocean SST data. GISTEMP uses ocean data in preference to land data when the land area is very small - look at the Chatham Islands in the South Pacific as a good example of this. Do runs for Land only, Ocean only and Land & Ocean. Look at the tabulated data for each run. The land data isn't used at all in the combined series. Also the use of data out to 1200 km is part of the standard algorithm for GISTEMP. However temps frpm 1200 k's out only have a small weighting at the centre. The basis for this 1200 range is the original research behind GISTEMP showing strong correlation between anomaly changes out to 1200 kms. Currently I am working on a post on another subject. Following that I plan a series of posts on surface temperature measurement that I hope will clarify some of these things.
90258. SoundOff at 13:09 PM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       I believe Mr. Sarkozy is technically correct. Greenhouse gases cause stratospheric cooling. A colder stratosphere is more conducive to ozone depletion (which is why we see ozone holes over the poles). The ban on the primary cause of the holes, CFCs, is intended to promote the recovery of the ozone layer. The net effect is probably a longer recovery period. I would agree that ozone depletion is not a first order consequence of greenhouse gas emissions.
90259. Glenn Tamblyn at 13:07 PM on 1 April 2011
       Of Satellites and Air – A Primer on Tropospheric temperature measurement by Satellite
       Nice graph Daniel. Even shows up the lesser peak from the Agung eruption of 1963/64 Another speculation using that precise scientific instrument, a Mark I eyeball. All three eruptions spike back up to a similar level then drop back down to the old trend. Is that coincidence, a function of the size of the eruptions? Or an underlying property of the impact of any major eruption on the stratosphere?
       Moderator Response: [DB] Based on my understanding, the graph highlights the transient impact that volcanic eruptions typically have on climate. All bets are off on supervolcanic eruptions, tho.
90260. scaddenp at 12:24 PM on 1 April 2011
       Temp record is unreliable
       Well a great many people have managed to use this data. eg look at this and you will guides to understanding the odd numbers and how to process if you look. What exactly were you trying to download from CISL? (their data, their rules - oil companies certainly cant download government data here without telling us who they are). While its great that you are looking at the data, you also should satisfy yourself about the methodology. (ie neither GISS, Hadcrut, nor noaa are trying to calculate a global mean temperature and that the anomaly data really is stable and spatially highly correlated).
90261. muoncounter at 12:06 PM on 1 April 2011
       Arctic Ice March 2011
       johnd#56: "The major factor standing between the incoming solar radiation and the ice will be clouds," Indeed. From Kay 2007: Reduced cloudiness and enhanced downwelling radiation are associated with the unprecedented 2007 Arctic sea ice loss. Over the Western Arctic Ocean, total summertime cloud cover estimated from spaceborne radar and lidar data decreased by 16% from 2006 to 2007. The clearer skies led to downwelling shortwave (longwave) radiative fluxes increases of +32 W/m2 (-4 W/m2) from 2006 to 2007 ... ... we suggest that in a warmer Arctic with thinner ice, cloud and shortwave radiation anomalies will play an increasingly important role in modulating summertime sea ice extent. So a warmer Arctic summer has decreasing cloud cover, leading to more energy input to the surface. Better hope those Spencer magic clouds are coming to the rescue soon.
90262. muoncounter at 11:41 AM on 1 April 2011
       Temp record is unreliable
       cloa "The US Government site provides no data or garbage numbers" What are you talking about? Data downloadable for free here, zipped here and graphics here. "its all our tax dollars." Ah ha: 'I can't find what I'm looking for, so they're wasting our tax dollars.' Anyone for tea?
90263. cloa513 at 11:06 AM on 1 April 2011
       Temp record is unreliable
       I looked at the links through RealClimate.org The US Government site provides no data or garbage numbers like 4000 lots of -1936. Someone should complain about their garbage. Some useful data in the rest. CISL- its none of your business or your parent organisation- who I am nor should you restrict data access in any way. Needing the request data is a scientific disgrace- its all our tax dollars.
90264. Stephen Baines at 11:05 AM on 1 April 2011
       Acidification: Oceans past, present & yet to come
       @Agnostic...The Southern Ocean is Fe limited because it gets most of it's nutrients from upwelling of very old deep water. Fe is not very soluble in the ocean under current pHs - it tends to complex with particles and gets removed to sediments over time. As deep water ages, Fe is slowly stripped from water by this process. When it rises to the surface there is consequently a definict of Fe rlative to nitrate, phosphate and silicate. The Fe gets used up by algae before the other nutrients, leading to Fe limitation and what are called High Nutrient Low chlorophyll (HNLC) conditions. In other regions that receive river water, release of Fe from sediments or dust, Fe is not so limiting and thos conditions don't ocur. I think that general picture is unlikely to change until pH drops quite a bit, and then it could take quite a while for any effect to be observed as you'd have to see that pH change at depth and aloow time for the slow processes I referred to respond. I know someone has recently done a calculation on the effect of pH on Fe availability. I'll see if I can find it. I'm sure it comes with a lot of caveats.
90265. muoncounter at 10:48 AM on 1 April 2011
       A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
       Gilles#129 "giving 2 000 Gt of CO2" Excellent. The same Gilles who scoffed at 650ppm under an IEA oil forecast now reveals back-of-the-envelope numbers that take us well past even that horrifying level. But no worries, Gilles says it's OK because he can twist a near-doubling of CO2 (from pre-industrial) into only another 0.5C. We've already seen +0.5C just since 1970, when CO2 was 325ppm; now its 390, a 20% increase. Gilles predicts: going to 540ppm, another 40% higher than today will result in just another 0.5C. Anyone (except Gilles) can see that's fuzzy math. This is from the same Gilles who believes that doubling the energy consumption of the planet won't be a problem. Anybody feel all better now?
90266. scaddenp at 10:41 AM on 1 April 2011
       Temp record is unreliable
       I think there may be some confusion about what links are being referred to. Not the data links to chris shaker. To cloa513, moderator pointed to useful links in response to post here I pointed to other useful data (eg Hansen agreeing that mean global temperature isnt useful so dont us it) and actual methodology in posts 143 and 144. Both work. In essence, the arguments about mean global temperature are a strawman. The arguments against it are quite valid but the methodology being rebutted is not the methodology used for examining global temperature trends. The actual methodology (average anomaly) is pointed to by link and the papers that support it reveal decades of testing of the method validity. What cloa513 hasnt done is presented a contrary argument against this. Cloa513 - a debate of substance would include a statement about what you thought was excuses and particularly why you thought it was lame. The question really at hand is whether the globe is warming or not. You seem to contending that we dont know about method is flawed (but you havent examined the real method) plus some speculative FUD. You are also noting that other evidence of warming is provided by satellites tropospheric measurement (which is independent of ground measurement), sealevel rise and glacial retreat. If you are of one opinion now, you need to ask yourself what data would make you change you mind.
90267. adelady at 10:35 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       chrisd@27 I'm starting to think there might be a business opportunity - skincare for climate bloggers. With all the face-palming, head-desking and jaw-dropping, a soothing concoction to take away redness and soften callouses should be a runaway success.
       Response: [John] Well, 4 years of climate blogging have ravaged my once youthful good looks so you might have stumbled upon a lucrative niche industry there!
90268. Stu at 10:35 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       Ooh yes Goddard did provide plenty of entertainment. When you're so consistently, persistently and embarrassingly wrong that even Anthony Watts 'fires' you, well really you should take a good long look at yourself. Some took SG's departure from WUWT as a sign that perhaps Watts was going to clean up his act... but the avalanche of truly appalling 'guest posts' that have come since certainly dispove that notion. Oh well!
90269. Riduna at 10:33 AM on 1 April 2011
       Acidification: Oceans past, present & yet to come
       What effect, if any, does carbonic acid have on the presence of iron in a form which can be utilized by plankton and promote their bloom? Is low iron concentration in the Southern Ocean due to carbonic acid (presumably stronger in cooler waters), lack of upwelling of water from the seabed, or some other reason?
90270. johnd at 10:28 AM on 1 April 2011
       Arctic Ice March 2011
       Philippe Chantreau at 06:50 AM, I agree it's no big deal, for those who are aware of what they are being presented. However such visual depictions can create first impressions for those who are not so circumspect and readily accept what they see at face value. Your note about area is completely relevant. As the graphics indicate, they depict the energy received at the TOA and clearly acknowledge a dominating role to incoming solar radiation. The major factor standing between the incoming solar radiation and the ice will be clouds, and it is not only the nominal 2/3rds total global coverage, but the distribution pattern that controls what is your real concern of areas being open to receive incoming energy. This is drifting into other topics, but historical deforestation and seaboard human habitation have likely changed cloud distribution patterns 100's, even 1000's of km inland as some studies of factors affecting precipitation patterns indicate, meaning changes must have also occurred over adjacent ocean areas.
90271. Daniel Bailey at 10:17 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       @ Stu (34) Compared to our American politicians Sarkozy did get it right. If you were to cast Inhofe and Sarkozy in a movie as rival bloggers, Sarkozy would be Romm and Inhofe would be Watts. And that's in no way intended as a slam on Romm, as I have great respect for Sarkozy. For those who fails to appreciate me sense of humor...go read some of SG's fine work, like his opus on CO₂ snow... The Yooper
90272. bill4344 at 10:06 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       If we're doing getting it right, Gillard has to get a guernsey for -

       The scientific consensus is stronger than ever. Given these realities, I ask: who would I rather have on my side? Alan Jones, Piers Akerman and Andrew Bolt, or the CSIRO, the Australian Academy of Science, the Bureau of Meteorology, NASA, the US National Atmospheric Administration and every reputable climate scientist in the world.

       Spot on, names the worst offenders, and no embarrassing mentions of the ozone layer! and Phil @33; two word summation of the general attitude in the antipodes; 'Clive who'? Feel free to hang on to him...
90273. Rob Honeycutt at 10:00 AM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       Tom Curtis... I don't disagree. Humlum has been very nice in my exchanges with him so I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt here. You're right, though, I think it's silly to use GISP2 as a definitive proxy for the Holocene. Even as a local measure of temperature I think it's dicy at many points. I seem to remember Dr Alley saying that there are parts of the record that are reflective of other things like snow drifts, and I believe Grootes 1993 (pointed out in Crux of a Core 2) states "The small Holocene O18 fluctuations of 1-2 occur too frequently to allow an unambiguous correlation between the cores." In other words, as far as I understand it, GISP2 is a fantastic record to study events like the Young Dryas but trying to infer Holocene temperature is more of a stretch. And that's pretty much my objection to almost every use of GISP2 that I see out there in the blogosphere. People, Dr Humlum included, are using GISP2 in an inappropriate manner.
90274. Tom Curtis at 09:39 AM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       Rob Honeycutt @2, having read some of the site, I think you are bing to kind. Anyone who can give as detailed a comparison of "global" temperature indices as he does without mentioning that only one of them is truly global is being very selective in the data they present to the public. Specifically in the case in question, any comparison between a local temperature record alone, and the global CO2 record is obviously invalid. What is more, I would suggest that any such comparison that fails to mention the host of factors causing additional variability in local temperatures compared to global temperatures (something entirely missing from his commentary) is inevitably misleading, and obviously so. Given that there are a significant number of reconstructions and/or proxies available that would give a better approximation of the global temperature record over that period, his choice of the very variable Greenland record is tendentious. Further, it is well known that CO2 levels have been rising in the atmosphere since the invention of agriculture due to changes in land use, mostly in the form of deforestation and the extension of wetland methane emission due to rice cultivation. This, clearly is something that should be discussed in any comparison of the Holocene CO2 record with temperatures, and is entirely missing from Dr Humlum's commentary. At the same time, any comparison of CO2 and temperature from before the Holocene, ie, when human activity is in fact irrelevant, is entirely missing from his page. That cannot be accidental.
90275. Stephen Baines at 09:28 AM on 1 April 2011
       Acidification: Oceans past, present & yet to come
       I think Michael nailed where the confusion comes from. We often hear this weak acid/strong acid argument as if the pH doesn't matter to dissociation of carbonic acid. At pH 8, carbon acid might as well be HCl as it dissociates almost completely. I've been caught out several times by this fallacy as well. I have also heard this argument about CO2 and carbonic acid before as well and I couldn't figure out where it came from. Fact is, we can't usually discriminate between dissolved CO2 and carbonic acid by measurement. Empirical pKas are determined assuming CO2(aq) and carbonic acid are essentially the same thing. I know Gobler pretty well. If you guys have questions about setup of this experiment I can probably get him or Talmage to respond.
90276. Sean A at 09:06 AM on 1 April 2011
       A Plan for 100% Energy from Wind, Water, and Solar by 2050
       More energy would* enable humans to do more while using fewer resources. More recycling, less mining. More high-tech cities, less suburban sprawl. Lower transportation costs (all-electric vehicles and trains) without air pollution. Cheap desalination. Industry complains about the costs of implementing environmental regulations, but if the energy required is cheap and abundant, they have less to complain about. So I think the more energy we have, the better we can protect the environment. Even now, developed nations can afford to set aside and protect vast wilderness areas, while in the developing world, energy poorness promotes continuing damage to ecosystems, and contributes to the population problem. *We do need strong regulations and protections to go along with it though.
90277. Stu at 08:28 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       DB, if Sarkozy said: "The world goes to its destruction if we keep emitting carbon that creates a hole in the ozone layer and breaks all the planet equilibria, this is a fact" Well, it can't go in a list of policians-who-get-it-right (I don't know if you were implying that it would). We can applaud his acknowledgement that something has to be done, but I reckon his chief science advisor cringed at that statement!
90278. Phil at 08:08 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       Nigel Lawson is another prominent UK climate change contrarian politician (with his hands now reassuring far from the levers of power). Wasn't Monckton was once deputy leader of UKIP ? It has struck me just how few mainstream UK Politicians are sceptical. We seem to specialise in washed-up celebrities: People like Clive James (who may be familiar to Australian readers), David Bellamy and Johnny Ball.
90279. MidwestHES at 07:15 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       The exact same thing that is happening with the debate on AGCD happened with the debate on the Ozone hole, starting in the early 1970's...The same groups and people that are denying this denied that as well...but for some reason, no one seems to remember and we are unfortunately repeating our history, having not learned anything from the previous fiasco. http://www.wunderground.com/resources/climate/ozone_skeptics.asp I read something the other day, not sure if it was someone "important" that suggested it, but either way, it was a great idea. Someone needs to erect a huge monument somewhere here in the U.S. The monument would garner a giant plaque, with the names of every prominent politician, political party, corporation, scientist, journalist, state government, etc. that denies Anthropogenic Global Climate Disruption. We'll leave the title plate on the monument blank so that in 15-20 years, when this "debate" has FINALLY gone the way of the dodo, there will be empirical evidence of whom was right, and who was wrong. If they are correct, the title would read something like "Saved us from the alarmist environmental wackos, and made a lot of money doing it!". If they are wrong, as we suspect, it will say "These people are NEVER to be trusted again, with anything". I'm fairly sure that our side would be willing to take that gamble...is theirs?
90280. Paul D at 07:06 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       I recommend Graham Stringer (Labour and mentioned @20) and John Redwood (Conservative) as UK entries. Probably the whole of the UK Independence Party as well (Monckton joined them). I don't have time to find quotes and rebuttals.
90281. Philippe Chantreau at 07:03 AM on 1 April 2011
       Acidification: Oceans past, present & yet to come
       Shorter H.Pierce: "It is quite possible things will be OK." I'm trying to compare that to my mindset when, say, boarding an airplane. Hmmm
90282. Philippe Chantreau at 06:50 AM on 1 April 2011
       Arctic Ice March 2011
       Johnd I don't see why the scale would have to "acknowledge" anything, it is not its function. It is not a scale of total energy received over the entire area. The insolation being given on w/sq.m it would be quite easy to estimate the total incoming energy by applying that to the surface area. Big deal. Talking about area, the real concern here is how much area of ocean is open to receive that many w/sq.m A real concern indeed.
90283. scaddenp at 06:20 AM on 1 April 2011
       A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
       Gilles - CBD is doing no such thing, he is using YOUR figure 2000Gt of CO2, but noting the proven reserves give you enough CO2 for 790, not 540. But even 540 is takes us to levels of Pliocene and older in the blink of the geological eye. You might feel safe about that but I certainly dont. And that assumes that rate of CO2 production stays constant at todays level (the conservative SRES scenario) despite increasing population and affluence. Hmm. I would frankly be very happy to if we managed to hold CO2 increase. What are you expecting to replace oil for transport as petrol dwindles? I'm guessing increasing electric and if we are not careful that will be produced from coal. "most SRES scenario assume much more than the proved reserves" Show me where? The ZJ values seemed to fit pretty well with the coal reserves. Also, as someone who spent first 15 years of working life in coal resource estimation, I would say "proven" coal IS a conservative estimate. When you have a lot of proven reserve, there is little incentive to spend exploration dollars lifting the inferred reserves into proven, especially when costs of exploration are decreasing.
90284. Philippe Chantreau at 06:16 AM on 1 April 2011
       2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
       DSL and KR @ 918, 919. ROFL Thus the troll is reduced to its initial insignificance. Reality and the reality-based have prevailed. Yeah!
90285. dana1981 at 06:13 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       Thanks chris. We need to get a hold of a transcript of the proceedings too though. That's where things got really bad in terms of myth propagation.
90286. pbellin at 05:24 AM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       A rolling stone gathers no moss. Here is a gem from the referenced web site: "According to ice core analysis, the atmospheric CO2 concentrations during all four prior interglacials never rose above approximately 290 ppm; whereas the atmospheric CO2 concentration today stands at nearly 390 ppm. The present interglacial is about 2oC colder than the previous interglacial, even though the atmospheric CO2 concentration now is about 100 ppm higher." This is based, I believe on a single ice core, the Vostok Ice core in Antartica. The figure discussed in this post is just below the gem above. I imagine Dr. Humlum forgot to update the Greenland temps to the most recent date, and forgot to mention that the forcing from changes in carbon dioxide have not all been realized. I imagine this web site would provide a treasure trove of topics for brave-hearted debunkers.
       Moderator Response: [DB] As an FYI, the highest CO₂ levels in the Vostok core were 298.7 ppmv and occurred 323,546 years ago. Not that anyone's counting.
90287. chrisd3 at 05:19 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       @dana1981 #26 Here is the written testimony of the speakers (not a transcript). Click the speakers' names.
90288. Rob Honeycutt at 05:18 AM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       i have to say, Dr. Humlum has been very gracious in my communication with him. I wouldn't lump him in with the denier crowd at all. He's closer to a true skeptic but definitely with a lean toward "it's not so bad" as far as I can tell. I've told Dr. Humlum about this post but he says he's off on another trip into the field with students and will be out of touch. He might pop in to comment once he's back from that trip.
90289. bibasir at 05:04 AM on 1 April 2011
       Crux of a Core, Part 3... Dr. Ole Humlum
       Great post! It is a shame that the likes of Humlum couldn't be put at the bottom of the hill to await the return of the boulder. He would excape the boulder if he would update his chart with the 2010 number and the CO2 for the present. Even though the addition of 2010 does not make the chart more accurate, atleast it shows the spike up to past records in one year.
90290. otter17 at 04:39 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       This seems like a great idea. Keeping tabs on what politicians say and what their viewpoint on climate happens to be is important information for the public. I concur with some of the ideas already mentioned in the comments so far. I follow Skeptical Science, Climate Crocks, and Desmog blog occasionally, and I think having information that complements Desmogblog would be awesome. Maybe a joint venture? It would be nice for the layperson to be able to determine which sources of climate science information have been incorrect in the past, and why. In this way, one can more easily determine which sources have a poor record, and get a better picture of the overall reliability of that source. For example, my father believes that the Heartland Institute, Sarah Palin, and Sean Hannity are "good people with good morals and political views". Now, that is his overall opinion of them, which is fine, but he also gets a totally skewed view of climate change from them. This database already looks like a great resource to help me show to him that he can't always trust political persons with climate science facts.
90291. chrisd3 at 04:35 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       @apsmith #25 It just makes you want to start banging your head on the desk, doesn't it?
90292. dana1981 at 04:35 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       apsmith - we will be doing an extensive response to today's House climate hearing. One aspect will be collecting all of the politician myth quotes. If somebody knows how to get a hold of a recording or transcript of the hearing, please let us know.
       Moderator Response: [DB] In days of yore, they were required to provide an official transcript of these. If they are made available online, let alone in a timely fashion, I no longer know.
90293. apsmith at 04:29 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       My notes from today's (March 31 in US) climate hearing in the House Science Committee, on arguments made. We'll need to put these into the quotes database when we have an online source for the actual quotes, hopefully in the congressional record? * Cravaack (MN) - global cooling in the 1970's * Hall (chairman) - IPCC predicts only 7-23 inches. * Brooks - global cooling * Rohrabacher - "case closed"?? and a variant on "it's the sun" * Hall again - closing comments that we've spent so much money and it's all still so uncertain...
90294. Chris Colose at 04:13 AM on 1 April 2011
       Understanding Solar Evolution Part 2: Planets
       Another important point in the review article (also discussed in Hansen's Target CO2 paper) is that the CO2 inventory in the atmosphere is very small when compared to the Earth sources and sinks, so increased removal of CO2 with uncompensated output by volcanism after a Himalayan uplift would draw levels down to zero in a million years or so. This means a counterbalancing process is necessary, largely provided by a deceleration globally of weathering in regions un-impacted by the mountains due to temperature, which would help control the drawdown of CO2 in the Cenozoic.
90295. chrisd3 at 04:05 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       @Michael Sweet #18:

       Berkely Physicist Richard Muller, who has been hired to disparage the surface temperature record.

       That may be a problem for Dr Muller. Apparently his own forthcoming temperature study (Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature, or BEST) is going to say that the reconstructions by NOAA, NASA, etc., are right on the money.
       Moderator Response: [DB] Indeed. It is already a problem, for several parties:
90296. Chris Colose at 03:52 AM on 1 April 2011
       Understanding Solar Evolution Part 2: Planets
       Hi Bart, This review article back in 2000 is a good start http://www.essc.psu.edu/~brantley/publications/kump.pdf Since then, there's been a number of field studies (e.g., Dessert et al., 2001; Oliva et al., 2003; Gislason et al., 2008; Turner et al., 2010) that show weathering rates can go up with temperature and runoff, however there's also dependence on topographical factors, rock exposure and soil overlying that rock, etc which make for complications. There's also been debate when it comes to interpreting Strontium isotopes or other ways of diagnosing weathering rates in the past, but in general I don't sense much disagreement that this serves as an important negative feedback over sufficiently long timescales. I mentioned the Zeebe and Caldeira paper (see also David Archer's summary of that paper) simply because it was useful in testing an elusive (and largely theoretical) mechanism over the time-frame where ice cores exist.
90297. johnd at 03:49 AM on 1 April 2011
       Arctic Ice March 2011
       Ken Lambert at 00:45 AM, with the colouring on the graph representing W/m2, the Latitude scale being evenly divided does not acknowledge the effect of decreasing area per degree of latitude change and thus allow that to be visually appreciated. In the same way, a map of the world without some form of equal area projection would provide a distorted impression of the real world.
90298. Gilles at 03:38 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       Nicolas Sarkozy, Président de la République Française (in French) http://www.rue89.com/2009/09/24/sarkozy-se-plante-encore-sur-le-trou-dans-la-couche-dozone?page=4#comment-1065723 "le monde va à sa perte si on continue à émettre du carbone qui crée un trou dans la couche d'ozone et qui brise les équilibres de la planète, ça c'est un constat" "The world goes to its destruction if we keep emitting carbon that creates a hole in the ozone layer and breaks all the planet equilibria, this is a fact"
       Moderator Response: [DB] Thanks for bringing this to our attention; you've just given us a great idea for a new post: Politicians-who-get-it-right. Understandably, a short post right now.
90299. Bob Lacatena at 03:27 AM on 1 April 2011
       Arctic Ice March 2011
       I'm unsure why Ken is so focused on the energy that goes into melting. That energy is simply released again when the ice freezes, so it's a zero sum game (and it's inconsequentially small, to boot). But as I said earlier, and as adelady just reiterated, what matters is not the energy that goes into melting ice, but rather the energy that goes into the ocean after the ice has melted (and which otherwise would have been reflected back into space). This is the problem with melting Arctic ice, that after it has melted, it is further warming the planet by changing the albedo in a part of the world that receives 24 hours of continuous sunlight at a fairly direct angle. That the ice refreezes when the days are instead 24 hours long is irrelevant. When the ice melts and the sun is up, the Earth warms. When the ice melts that much sooner in the spring, then the Earth warms for that much longer. Which then helps to melt the ice even sooner the following year if the planet is unable to shed the extra heat by then.
90300. Nicholas Berini at 03:07 AM on 1 April 2011
       Debunking Climate Myths from Politicians
       I think you've really hit something with the format here. I think it would apply perfectly to: -climate scientists -news publications -climate bloggers -none of the above (though monkton already has his own page :) Wish I had more free time to contribute - vacation is just around the corner!

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