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Comments 91001 to 91050:
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johnd at 10:09 AM on 26 March 2011It hasn't warmed since 1998
Response: [DB] "Demonstrably false:" Demonstrably wrong! The image you posted is the anomaly for the entire period Feb 2003-2011 against the average 1951-2002, so it is irrelevant to the very simple observation I had made. This image, even at the scale it is, allows the downtrend to be observed. Perhaps you could instead produce actual data for the last 8 years that can be examined in finer detail if you believe that this image does not support my assertion.
Moderator Response:[DB] Wreeennncccch (sounds of metal protesting as goalpost are moved)!
As it stands, your initial phrase was false, so I pointed it out. And it still is, as you specified no comparator period. Where your logic falls apart is in your cherry-pick of a short period of time that is statistically insignificant. So let's recompute, using the period shown in your graphic (why 60S-60N when more data is available?):
Yup, still false.
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muoncounter at 10:08 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
We can't predict where and when an individual earthquake will occur, but we sure can say where the areas of highest seismic risk are. And there are numerous well-documented cases of anthropogenic influence, notably Healey et al 1968, The Denver Earthquakes, caused by waste water injection wells at the Rocky Mountain Arsenal. To go one step further on the absurdity index, small earthquakes are generally harmless; in large quantities (magnitude), not so good. -
Gilles at 10:05 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
Mucounter :"the two reasons we look for more resources are 'greed and envy.'" what's the difference with : because they create more wealth ? "Tell my colleagues, who must calculate whether they can afford to work at the current price of gasoline, that their car is 'an income.'" I didn't say that - i did say that it could be necessary to pay for it to get an income. If you can go to your job without car, that's fine. If you must have one, you accept it. That's just like oil : if it flows spontaneously from the ground, that's fine. If you must fetch it at 5000 thousands feet under the oceans ... well you accept it. But nobody would buy it if it weren't a precious resource. les : again, I have no reason to believe you understand things better than me - including the knowledge of who I am. So I'm waiting for your real arguments before answering. -
Don9000 at 09:55 AM on 26 March 2011The Washington Times Talks Greenhouse Law
The Washington Times has also published an editorial, on 23 March, which is filled with delightfully inflammatory statements. Here is a sample paragraph: "In 2007, the Supreme Court ruled that carbon dioxide - the harmless gas essential to all life on this planet - is somehow a “pollutant” and the EPA is within its authority to regulate it under the Clean Air Act. The decision swept away any vestige of restraint on the agency and resulted in a cascade of global-warming fear-mongering that has ginned up anti- industrial regulations that are crippling America’s ability to power civilization." Boy! as an American I'm proud that the CEI is worried about my nation's ability to "power civilization"! In an earlier paragraph, the editorial implies that the EPA's proposed course of action is based on very poor economic science: "When EPA clean-air regulations become fully operative, they will send shock waves through the American economy. The agency’s claim of long-term benefits totaling $1.3 trillion is inflated, according to a report released March 17 by the Competitive Enterprise Institute. The purported financial gain is overstated due to “accounting tricks and gimmicks” and doesn’t consider capital expenditures factories will pay to comply with the rules." While Vaugh's analysis of the economic benefits or costs of the EPA's plans may be accurate (I have a doctorate in English, so I cannot comment authoritatively on the analysis), it is quite clear from reading through several of the CEI's reports and articles, and the site's "about CEI" page, that CEI is fundamentally opposed to government regulation of economic activities in just about any way, shape, or form, and many of the claims I saw in these other publications are clearly inaccurate. Thus I want to pose a question: Has anyone taken a more detailed look at the CEI website? It seems to me it might be worth the effort to debunk one or more of the articles on the environment put out by this organization, especially since they are probably read by many GOP lawmakers or their aides. CEI has this to say about its publications: "CEI publishes high-quality original research on a variety of issues and in several formats. Web Memo: CEI’s policy brief series designed for easy understanding of policy issues. OnPoint: CEI’s series of short policy white papers, which distill current issues in an easy-to-read format. Issue Analysis: CEI’s series of full-length policy monographs, which look at issues from a broad perspective." -
2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
An object, at 20C, has an 80% absorptivity for 6 micron photons. Absorptivity is unchanged by temperature - the temperature is for later reference. (q) The object is struck by a 6 micron photon from a hotter object (40C) which includes 6 microns in it's emission spectra. What is the probability of absorbing the photon? (a) 80%. (q) The object is struck by a 6 micron photon from a cooler object (0C) which includes 6 microns in it's emission spectra. What is the probability of absorbing the photon? (a) 80%. Photons do not carry ID cards (the earlier quote was originally from me, I believe) indicating the temperature of the emitting object. The temperature of the emitting object is not encoded in the energy of an individual photon. Absorption depends only upon the individual photon energy and the (separate) object absorptivity spectra. You cannot refuse that 6 micron photon because you somehow "know" that it came from something colder. A spectra of photons can be statistically analyzed to determine the temperature required to emit that spectra (given some idea of the emission spectra of the object), but individual photons have energies, not temperatures. And each individual photon adds to the energy of the absorbing object. --- All of these 2nd law objections are based upon one or more such fundamental misunderstandings of physics, and are hence incorrect. The radiative greenhouse theory is entirely supported by thermodynamics. -
les at 09:31 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
Gilles: "les : sorry, but what I'm saying is just a summary of the history of the industrial civilization : increased efficiency has led to continuous increase of both energy consumption and GDP" no it's not. I'll explain tomorrow. "what don't you understand ?" You. thanks for asking. You clearly want to seem intelligent but don't give your self a chance. I don't understand that. Still, your choice. -
scaddenp at 09:28 AM on 26 March 2011It hasn't warmed since 1998
Convection? More marked in upper ocean. As SSTs are not trending down. The upper 700 do show ESNO variation. I don't see the problem here. -
funglestrumpet at 09:10 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
I came across a useful way of describing this the other day, but I forget where: The climate trains the boxer, but the weather delivers the punches. -
Ed Davies at 08:49 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
How about "yeah, right, we can't predict individual waves so tide tables are useless, too"? -
johnd at 08:44 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
David Horton at 08:25 AM, I agree with you regarding short term weather forecasts, however when it comes to seasonal forecasts, or looking a year or two ahead, it becomes a different matter. The ability to make such forecasts accurately is improving, but in terms of progress the mainstream forecasters are perhaps years behind some of the more progressive ones. Generally you get what you pay for, and some of the free services are simply too costly to follow. -
johnd at 08:33 AM on 26 March 2011Zero Carbon Australia: We can do it
adelady at 07:52 AM, actually that is quite a useful analogy. In a climate sense the centralised data processing area is that area where various systems converge periodically, such as, I'll mention yet again, the coinciding of a La-Nina and the -ve IOD bringing it's own version of RSI, and need for compensation. -
David Horton at 08:25 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
The "can't predict the weather tomorrow, therefore ..." comment, so often used in what the deniers think is a crushing final killer argument, is very odd indeed, the more you think about it. The weather forecasts in most parts of the world are now extremely accurate. Our local one here will tell you what time it will begin raining, how much rain is likely, when and where a thunderstorm will hit, when clouds will clear, what wind directions and strengths to expect, and so on. On the odd occasions when it is wrong it is only wrong in detail, for example the rain being delayed in its arrival by an hour or two. Someone who says that weather forecasts are inaccurate then can only be remembering back to a much earlier time, a time when isobars were based on a few weather stations and drawn by hand in small generalised maps in newspapers; where the forecast of rain could only be refined by what time it rained in the neighbouring town; where a front might peter out and slip away to the south before anyone could be aware of that fact; when conversely a cyclone might arrive out of nowhere; and where the dynamics of interacting weather systems were barely understood. I remember these kinds of forecasts from the 1950s, and I am sure that the deniers are harking back to that time (or even earlier) as well. The fact that weather forecasts now are extraordinarily accurate is the result of the huge growth in monitoring stations and weather satellites and computer analysis and well developed theories about rainfall and wind behaviour. All of the same factors that make our understanding of climate change so advanced. Time the deniers got to know which way the wind blows and why and when. Oh and if the weather forecast says take an umbrella, take an umbrella, a hard rain is going to fall. -
johnd at 08:17 AM on 26 March 2011It hasn't warmed since 1998
scaddenp at 06:57 AM, if total OHC measured 0-2000m is increasing, whilst OHC 0-700 is not, then what mechanisms are allowing this to happen. If it is due to the atmosphere/ocean interaction, then SST's will show that, but they don't, actually trending down the last 8 years or so. For the deeper ocean 700-2000m to be accumulating heat whilst 0-700m is not, it can only mean, assuming measurements are adequate and accurate, that whatever solar radiation being absorbed in the upper layers is either being offset somehow or being speedily transferred to the lower levels. But that amounts to a lot of heat that has to transfer through the surface, and then 700m of water, without leaving a trace, to deposit enough heat in 1300m of water, enough to cause the average OHC of 2000m of water to increase.Moderator Response:[DB] "If it is due to the atmosphere/ocean interaction, then SST's will show that, but they don't, actually trending down the last 8 years or so."
Demonstrably false:
Geo77 at 08:04 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
You could spend a lot of time thinking up analogies to this absurd argument. How's this one - going in a different direction: Saying you can't predict climate change if you can't exactly predict tomorrow's weather is like saying you can't determine who will likely win when the Miami Heat plays the Minnesota Timberwolves (substitute your favorite sports mismatch)unless you know the exact spot on the court where every player will be when there are exactly 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter.damorbel at 07:54 AM on 26 March 20112nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Re #847 Response: [Dikran Marsupial] The "they" in.... you can't tell from a single photon the temperature of the emitting body," Indeed you can't. But what you do know is the amount of energy the emitting particle has (or more accurately 'had') and that is (was) its temperature. Further: "you need to look at the distribution of energies of a large number of photons and do some curve-fitting (and make an assumption or two" Only true if you have a large number of particles. If you have a large number of particles ('real' particles - not photons) they are continually colliding and thus exchanging energy. Because of this they all have different energies and thus different temperatures but the critical point is they have an averge energy that corresponds to the measured (average) temperature.adelady at 07:52 AM on 26 March 2011Zero Carbon Australia: We can do it
Ken L RSI .... now with jobs less secure. Not exactly. It's almost the same issue as centralised power generation using fossil materials. The reason for the decline was firstly, H&S rules outlawing ridiculous demands (like a minimum 13000 keystrokes a day) in centralised data processing areas. Secondly, getting rid of centralised data processing areas by distributed use of computers throughout organisations. Works a whole heap better when just about everyone does part of it than when a few do all of it. A bit like wind all over the place, solar all over the place, tidal where there are tides, run of river where rivers run rather than centralised units requiring lots of work to constantly supply raw materials =and= concentrated effort to produce something better and more easily done where resources are available for no effort in the first place. It's not a wonderful analogy but it is an analogy.Rob Honeycutt at 07:48 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech @ 69... Hong Kong, since the turnover to China, has been called an SAR. Special Administrative Region. The areas inside China close to HK, coastal Guangdong province, is called the SEZ, a Special Economic (development) Zone. Those are the accepted terms.Rob Honeycutt at 07:44 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech @ 71... Again, Milton Freedman is ascribing to economics what is more likely a function of location. Go take a look at the economic performance of Singapore. Vastly different economic system and yet almost identical economic performance. You may not realize it yet but lots of people are rethinking much of what Friedman put forth and looking back again at Keynes.muoncounter at 07:42 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
Gilles #67: "the amount of FF we will extract will depend only on our technological capabilities ... and not at all on fancy colored graphics and fancy scenarios" And you have some data to substantiate this fancy scenario of yours? Or is it just the fancy colored graphical result of your profundity in #63, "the amount of available FF is increasing with time"?muoncounter at 07:37 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
Gilles #68: "... the only reason why we are looking for more and more resources." You clearly did not work in the same oil industry as I did. In the words of a former president of the AAPG, the two reasons we look for more resources are 'greed and envy.' "Thinking energy sources as a "cost" is a profound mistake : it's an income ... it may cost a little, but much less than giving up your job." You must live in the best of all possible worlds. I get paid the same regardless of the manner in which I travel to work. My car costs money to operate; that is effectively a reduction in my take-home pay that I would not have if I bicycled, walked, car-pooled. Tell my colleagues, who must calculate whether they can afford to work at the current price of gasoline, that their car is 'an income.'WSteven at 07:11 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
No, no. The stovetop represents climate change due to anthropogenic CO2. The campfire represents climate change due to natural events (ie: solar irradiance, rotational precession, etc...). Sorry, feeling the need to be a bit silly.scaddenp at 07:09 AM on 26 March 2011There's no empirical evidence
cloa513 - if we knew everything, then there would be no need to invest in the science. This site is about the science of climate, and in particular pushing against disinformation. I dont like the disinformation industry - telling lies for financial gain is wrong. I think governments should be making the decisions based on best available information, and we will run into trouble with climate before we run out of oil and long before we run out of coal. You are suggesting a PR campaign to sell an idea to an electorate - might work but that would be telling lies too.johnd at 07:02 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
flambeaub at 06:37 AM, your analogy amounts to what might be determined in a laboratory exercise. Putting that pot of water onto a campfire might leave you concluding that it is never going to boil, as I'm sure many experienced outdoors might testify to.scaddenp at 07:02 AM on 26 March 2011Why we have a scientific consensus on climate change
"why don't you simply read AR4 instead of loosing your time here ?" I couldnt agree more! However, the reason this site exists because is people dont and worse a huge amount of disinformation is thrown out. And so the science gets discussed. Debate is worthwhile so long as debaters back their claims and so debate is on the basis of the facts available dont you think?scaddenp at 06:57 AM on 26 March 2011It hasn't warmed since 1998
Its a coupled ocean/atmosphere phenomena. Tricky to assign a "cause" to the atmosphere. Why do the trades fail? However, the point really is that upwelling is heat exchange. Look at total OHC. If the current warming was just an ocean cycle, then why is total OHC increasing? So far decadal prediction eludes us. That's why climate is defined in terms of 30 year averages. What the overprint of global warming tells you is that the temperature of the peaks in ENSO events of the same magnitude is increasing.flambeaub at 06:37 AM on 26 March 2011Weather vs Climate
A very simple analogy is that if I put a pot of water on my stove and turn the heat to "high", I can say with a great deal of confidence that it will boil. What I can't tell you is the exact minute and second it will boil, nor where in the pot the first bubble will appear nor where and when any of the subsequent bubbles will appear.damorbel at 06:22 AM on 26 March 20112nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Re #846 Response: [Dikran Marsupial] I think you need to read the article that you introduced to the discussion here a little more carefully. Note the author talks about the 'temperature' of a photon, the quotes imply that the meaning of temperature was not the usual meaning of the word. I think the last sentence of Paul Walorski's article sums up the matter quite well:- "So it's not so much that the photons are all at a temperature of 2.7K but rather that they appear as if they were emitted by a single blackbody which was itself at a temperature of 2.7K." That would only be true if the Planck spectrum and the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution were equivalent. My use of the word 'equivalent' is deliberate. Re #844 Philippe Chantreau. I'm sorry you have this reaction but the 2nd Law is what is in question. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics it is very well established, it is not easy to grasp all its implications and failure to take them into account has brought many a beautiful hypothesis crashing down. I'm afraid the concept of temperature is just about as close to the heart of the 2nd Law as you can get.Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] The "they" in the sentence is the key there, you can't tell from a single photon the temperature of the emitting body, you need to look at the distribution of energies of a large number of photons and do some curve-fitting (and make an assumption or two).Gilles at 06:22 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
" As far as the increasing cost of not using fossil fuel, that's a concept that is only fit for use on the Bizarro planet." This bizarre concept is just the only reason why we are looking for more and more resources. Thinking energy sources as a "cost" is a profound mistake : it's an income, because they produce much more wealth than what they cost. Their "cost" is just like taking your car to go to your job - it may cost a little, but much less than giving up your job.Gilles at 06:19 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
les : sorry, but what I'm saying is just a summary of the history of the industrial civilization : increased efficiency has led to continuous increase of both energy consumption and GDP
what don't you understand ?
Mucounter : une nouvelle fois, sorry that you misunderstood me. I did say "for a given quality", they become cheaper and cheaper : of course this is not contradictory with what you said , that "this cost has increased 6-fold in the last ten years" - because the cause of this increase is just the exhaustion of cheap resources, so it is no more "for a given quality". That's exactly my point 1 : as the amount of FF is finite, at some point, the increase of intrinsic costs won't be balanced by an improvement of our techniques, and we'll face the problem of diminishing yields. Since FF are finite, this must occur at some time -which will be precisely the time when FF consumption will naturally decrease because they become more and more expensive.
But that's precisely what I'm claiming : that we are close to this moment (and particularly for oil), so the FF consumption will decrease anyway because they're too expensive (reason 1) So
a) most SRES scenarios are just imagination because they simply don't take into account the exhaustion of cheap resources (assuming that expensive resources can be extracted at the same or even higher rate , which is an aberration).
b) on the other hand, it is extremely unlikely that we burn LESS than what we are able to extract.
In other words, I'm saying that the amount of FF we will extract will depend only on our technological capabilities (which seem to saturate just now , at least for oil), and not at all on fancy colored graphics and fancy scenarios that so many "experts" are drawing.
johnd at 05:52 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech at 05:46 AM , whatever other advantages HK enjoyed, the low, flat rate of tax was the most inspired. Whilst taxpayers in high taxing countries expended time and energy to reduce their tax liability, it was more advantageous in HK to expend that time and energy to increase their tax liability.muoncounter at 05:42 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
PT#66: No, I believe that your idea of 'irrefutable' is about as well-defined as your idea of 'skeptical'. We've already seen (on another, never-to-be-mentioned thread) how you re-define words to fit your needs.Rob Honeycutt at 05:32 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Remember the old saying. "Location, location, location."johnd at 05:31 AM on 26 March 2011Preventing Misinformation
dana1981 at 05:00 AM, thanks for the link, but. Peduzzi 2004 as an example, after taking away references to earthquakes and the media, all that is left is questions not answers. Hardly something to support any opinions. The research may well be out there, but it appears not something readily produced to support opinions as I referenced regarding the "Extreme Weather" thread.Rob Honeycutt at 05:30 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech... HK is not part of the SEZ. It just happens to be the "gateway" to the SEZ. You may note that Shenzhen (on the HK border) has grown from a small fishing village into a metropolis of nearly 10 million since the SEZ was established. And that's not even counting the growth of the other cities included in the SEZ. THAT has driven the prosperity of HK. HK would have prospered regardless of what form of government was established there. The feather in your cap has nothing to do with Libertarianism.muoncounter at 05:30 AM on 26 March 2011Temp record is unreliable
Reply to comment from here. "The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project is incorporating criticism of data collection sites" And here is what the BEST project says as of today: We are first analyzing a small subset of data (2%) to check our programs and statistical methods and make sure that they are functioning effectively. We are correcting our programs and methods while still “blind” to the results so that there is less chance of inadvertently introducing a bias. The Berkeley Earth team feels very strongly that no conclusions can yet be drawn from this preliminary analysis. -- emphasis added Best to wait until there's a finding before rushing to judgment. But then, you're reading Watt$.damorbel at 05:26 AM on 26 March 20112nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Re #843 Response: '[Dikran Marsupial] You are still not making the distinction between the "effective temperature" of a photon/emitting particle and the temperature of the emitting body.' Sorry, I must have missed something; "effective temperature"? I had not realised this matter had been commented on. Can you help me?Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] I think you need to read the article that you introduced to the discussion here a little more carefully. Note the author talks about the 'temperature' of a photon, the quotes imply that the meaning of temperature was not the usual meaning of the word.[muoncounter] The article uses 'equivalent temperature,' rather than 'effective temperature'.
[Dikran Marsupial] You are quite right, mea culpa - oh the irony! ;o)
muoncounter at 05:25 AM on 26 March 2011Most of the last 10,000 years were warmer
Reply to cjshaker #8 on Surface temperature record thread.muoncounter at 05:19 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
PT: "... an irrefutable direct correlation" You link to a Heritage Foundation graph of GDP per capita vs. 'economic freedom score', whatever that is. Your 'irrefutable correlation' boasts an R^2 of 0.45; hardly proof of anything other than the existence of dots on a page. But based on prior PT discussions, I'm assuming you didn't actually look at the graph before linking to it.y-not at 05:18 AM on 26 March 2011A climate 'Gish Gallop' of epic proportions
I love the term "Gish Gallop". Maybe it would be useful to have an extensive set of such labels, and a lexicon, for the processes that skeptics use. This could then be used to build a matrix to classify the skeptic and/or the article/publication, to help avoid getting bogged down in some of the recycled detail.Moderator Response: [DB] Over on the 2nd Law, Meet the Denominator and Waste Heat threads we have PRATT in action...Rob Honeycutt at 05:15 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Lest we forget... All property in HK is owned by, yes, the HK government. In HK you can only lease your property from the government. How does that jibe with Libertarian ideology?muoncounter at 05:10 AM on 26 March 2011A Plan for 100% Renewable Energy by 2050
Gilles: "The amount of available FF is increasing with time. And there are not one, but two excellent reasons for that - ... we're becoming more and more performant to drill oil wells very deep in the ocean, extract hydrocarbons from shale, and so on... so actually for a given quality, they become cheaper and cheaper" This Gillesian logic is based on the usual paucity of facts: Do you have any data on the full-cycle finding and development cost per boe? Do you know that this cost has increased 6-fold in the last ten years? Do you know the average 'break-even price' continues to increase at a rate comparable to the market price per boe? " - increasing the efficiency raises the wealth produced by unit energy, so increases the cost of not using them." As far as the increasing cost of not using fossil fuel, that's a concept that is only fit for use on the Bizarro planet.cjshaker at 05:03 AM on 26 March 2011Most of the last 10,000 years were warmer
It appears that the modern temperature record being posted above may not be very accurate. The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project is incorporating criticism of data collection sites from Anthony Watts and his team (wattsupwiththat.com) "NEW - There have been many criticisms of station quality. How can you be sure that your results will be good if you are including stations that do not meet NOAA’s criteria for station quality? One of the elements that we plan to study is temperature records from just the very best sites (as classified by Anthony Watts and his team) contrasted with the poorer sites. We will include this comparison when we release our analysis. Each of our 39,028 sites has also been classified as urban or rural using the map published by the Modis satellite team, and we will use that classification to look for differences. " http://www.berkeleyearth.org/FAQ The most recent post I've found on the topic "In the next picture, Steve shows what Briffa and Osborn did – not only did they truncate their reconstruction to hide a steep decline in the late 20th Century but also a substantial early segment from 1402-1550:" [SNIP] http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/03/24/steve-mcintyre-uncovers-another-trick/ Chris ShakerModerator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Quoted accusation of dishonesty snipped. Lets keep it to the scientific issues only please.dana1981 at 05:00 AM on 26 March 2011Preventing Misinformation
We've been meaning to do the extreme weather rebuttal, but there are only so many hours in the day. We're only human. The research is out there though, I've previously read a number of studies on the subject. I just can't produce them without re-doing a Google Scholar search, which you could do just as easily as I could. One quick example I can provide is Peduzzi 2004.Rob Honeycutt at 04:54 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech... You have a complete and total concept of what will lead to economic disaster. And Hong Kong? How much time do you spend in HK, Andrew? I spend a lot of time there. I speak Cantonese. My wife is Chinese. How you come to the conclusion that HK is some bastion of Libertarianism it totally beyond me. Do you think that, you know, just maybe HK has prospered because it has been the gateway city to the economic development in Shenzhen and the entire Pearl River Valley? (Dong guan, Guangzhou, etc.) You remember? The "economic development zone" set up by the (ahem) Communist Chinese Government.johnd at 04:52 AM on 26 March 2011Preventing Misinformation
re "Moderator Response: [muoncounter] See the thread on Extreme weather." There seems to be a lack of links to studies there also, something pointed out, but remains unaddressed.pbjamm at 04:51 AM on 26 March 2011Meet The Denominator
Please let this tread die. It is more maddening than the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics thread since it is all opinion and devoid of science content.Rob Honeycutt at 04:32 AM on 26 March 2011Meet The Denominator
WSteven said... "So, yes you did unless you've reinvented english and logic." Ding! Ding! Ding! Yes, Johnny, we have a winner! This is exactly Poptech's calling card. The alternate reality of Poptech logic.johnd at 04:30 AM on 26 March 2011Zero Carbon Australia: We can do it
Ken Lambert at 23:55 PM, just to add a point about the use of coal globally. In Asia more and more electricity is being produced by IPP's (independent power producers) who compete to supply power generally to the government authority for distribution. They are totally commercial profit making operations. Those that use coal have to pay world prices for it even if it is being mined in country, so there are no subsidies there, especially now with the global demand for coal. Ah, yes, the RSI outbreak, an interesting study of human behavior I thought. As an aside, what was the plant you were involved in the commissioning of?Rob Honeycutt at 04:21 AM on 26 March 2011The Libertarian Climate Conundrum
Poptech... I realize there is more than one macroeconomic theory. Do not underestimate my knowledge in this area. I know about the Austrian School and Mises. And the Chicago School and Keynesianism. You are mincing words with a broad axe. The point being, Libertarianism today is a guise for setting up a Plutocratic state. Most who profess to believe in Libertarian values do not even have a concept of what they are asking for. This is quite well evidenced through the article here. So, in a way you are correct. No one is talking about true Libertarian ideals, any more than Communism ever had that much to do with Marxism. My problem with Libertarians is, like Communism, it will never be applied as defined and will never work. It's a recipe for economic collapse.johnkg at 04:19 AM on 26 March 2011Meet The Denominator
#782 Alarmists do not use the UAH satellite record but instead use the ones that show a more pronounced warming. ergo, the IPCC are not alarmist.Prev 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 1818 1819 1820 1821 1822 1823 1824 1825 1826 1827 1828 Next
