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Comments 102751 to 102800:

  1. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter... "Non-hydro renewables cannot provide significant baseload power. If you say they can then show me." Do you want to try to understand or are you simply set on trying to misinform people about renewables? (Such statements always cut both ways.) Once again, please read Large-scale baseload wind power in China. Quoting from the abstract: "Using locally mass-produced wind turbines there are good prospects that wind power would be cost-competitive with coal power, on a lifecycle cost basis, while providing substantial net environmental benefits."
  2. Renewable Baseload Energy
    KR, All that is covered. Look at the "Solar Power Realities - Addendum". Also look at the "Zero Carbon Australia - Statioonary Energy Plan - Critique" Do you want to try to understand or are you simply set on trying to promote renewables by misinformation. I am still waiting for you and others to provide the information I requested in #224. If you can't why don't you simply admit it. The fact is clear. Non-hydro renewables cannot provide significant baseload power. If you say they can then show me.
  3. Renewable Baseload Energy
    I forgot to mention the Andasol-power plant in Spain - Andasol 1 and 2 are already working and in operation, Andasol 3 is under construction since Sep 2009. Andasol is solar thermal only and has a huge storage tank (molten salt). Andasol can run continuously since the tank has enough energy to run for 8 consecutive hours over night. Each plant provides gross electricity output of 50 MWe. I think Australia might have some good places for that, too.
  4. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    BP "If OHC is supposed to be the true indicator of global warming and we have only seven years of reliable OHC data, then it is not cherry-picking to use what we have, is it?" Well actually I think true total OHC is long way from being tied down. However, can we assume that say 7 years down the track from here, and with good OHC data, if that OHC shows the warming trend, you will finally accept that we have a warming planet and its not just some measurement error?
  5. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter Lang - Looking at your "Solar Power Realities" article, I see no mention of multiple sites. You appear to be taking the worst case scenario (a single site), and applying those production numbers to a system as a whole. That's quite simply not realistic. Any reasonable renewable power plan (whether supplementary or baseline) will include multiple sites chosen for low correlation (negative, preferably), a mix of solar and wind, etc. That hugely lowers the power storage and backup turbine requirements, albeit with an increase in transmission costs. A true comparison should include multiple siting in your calculations.
  6. Renewable Baseload Energy
    adelady, The link you provided is a 30MB pdf by Geoscience Australia. I didn't download it but I am familiar with the argument. It runs something like this: "there are very large quantities of heat at depth and in some places they are closer to the surface than others". That is all true. Just as there is limitless heat in the Sun. The problem with both geothermal and solar is turning that enormous amount of heat into electricity. In both cases the heat is diffuse, low energy density, and difficult to extract. This paper explains some of the problems with extracting the heat from Hot Dry Rock (similar problems apply to Hot Fractured Rock which is what we are trying to develop in Australia).
  7. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter Lang - I'll ask again, have you read Czisch and his discussion of minimum continuous power available when the system as a whole (rather than individual sites) is considered? You've been pointed to this article on European renewable power generation several times, but have not (as far as I've seen) commented on it.
  8. Renewable Baseload Energy
    As I posted you before in #161, the german "Kombikraftwerk" was a study, were existing, real data from existing, real renewable PV, Wind, hydro (storage) and biomass power generators were taken over two consecutive years. Those real generation data were used to virtually combine those 36 power distributed generation sources and look at the combined output (resolution 1 h). In particular wind and PV very often complement each other (wind: strong in morning/evening, PV: strong at noon). Anyway, the outcome was that this kind of "virtual" power plant can fulfill all the requirements of baseload power. Its called "virtual" not because it is only a simulation but since the distributed sites will always be distributed and only connected virtually as a single plant to a control room which is tied to the rest of the grid. You can think of several of these virtual plants in one grid. Heck, in Germany there was > 15% renewable share of electricity production already in 2009 - and in 2020 the estimate is somewhere > 40%.
  9. Renewable Baseload Energy
    To demonstrate that non-hydro renewables can provide baseload generation, could those advocating renewables please provide the information I requested in #224. If you cannot, then I suggest the case is proven: "Non-hydro Renewables cannot provide significant baseload generation".
  10. Renewable Baseload Energy
    SNRatio, To get some perspective on the amount of land that would need to be innundated to allow solar to provide all our baseload power (a limit condition to help appreciate the scale of the problem), and the cost, I'd urge you to look at "Solar Power Realities". The conclusions state: "Solar power is uneconomic. The capital cost of solar power would be 25 times more than power to provide the NEM’s demand. The minimum power output, not the peak or average, is the main factor governing solar power’s economic viability. The least cost solar option would emit 20 times more CO2 (over the full life cycle) and use at least 400 times more land area compared with . Government mandates and subsidies hide the true cost of renewable energy." To power the Australian National Electricity Market with solar PV and pumped hydro would require hydro dams that innundate 8,000 km2 of land area. However, we can't get approval to build any new dams of any size. They are opposed by you know who.
  11. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    I think this explanation is incorrect... Ok so why is the tropopause, cooler than in the stratosphere? It shouldnt be by this reasoning, we should have an adiabatic lapse rate all the way to the outer atmosphere. Now, the average height the LW escapes the atmosphere from the troposphere is around 6km, in the co2 band its around 10km(On average) Most is not reabsorbed in the stratosphere, 90% of the atmosphere is in the troposphere. In fact co2 is a net emmitter at those pressures(much greater distances between molecules), at 2/1. Ramanthan & Dickenson 79
  12. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter... And if you watch the talk given by Dr. Chu he uses a story from Australia to illustrate his point. Chu toured a modern automated factory in China producing some of the most highly efficient solar panels in the world. The technology came from an Australian who could not get anything accomplished at home but found enthusiastic interest in China. The factory producing these panels is not in China because of labor rates. It's an almost completely automated factory. It could be located anywhere. Now China is selling these panels to the rest of the world because the guy's own country couldn't see fit to invest. You know, it's the people who sit around compiling reasons that things can't be done who ultimately never get anything done. The people who find a way to do it are the leaders of the world.
  13. Renewable Baseload Energy
    @Peter Lang You quote me not completely: my point was that of 500 GWp renewable (which is 30% of the estimated need for China in 2020 if you read the report i linked to), 200GWp is non-hydro. So the 200 GWp is already over your artificial 10% threshold you are willing to neglect. I say the 200 GWp is large enough in order that baseload-ability has to be considered. Also, I am looking forward to the rest of my points in #207 and not only the first 5 lines.
  14. A basic overview of Antarctic ice
    79 muoncounter "This is akin to the 'it hasn't warmed since 1998' nonsense." Are you suggesting it's my argument that's akin to this? Because I thought I was trying to argue the opposite. I was trying to argue that generating trends on the back of short term data sets was dangerous. I specifically asked you if you were happy with fitting short term trends because I am not. If anything, because we have so little data, this is even more susceptible to false interpretation than the global temperature record. We actuall have no idea how interannual variability in the antarctic ice mass balance. So my worry still continues that V09 can make such strong assertions about the rate of ice mass loss doubling over the past decade is suspect. It really all does hinge on the anomalous 2006 data and the fact the author choose to start and end her trends on that year. That is not a matter of opinion, that's a fact. This is not just a problem with V09, Chen 09 comes to the same conclusion by ending and starting her/his trend around the same year. 2006 seems to be the important period for generating these trends. I wonder how you think the 2006 data should be interpreted and handled? Or whether these papers should acknowledge the problem of inter-annual variability?
  15. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Swieder, "200 GWp are non-hydro. I am reluctant to agree to your point that that qualifies to be "off-topic" when we talk about baseload." Please explain how 200GWp power has anything to do with baseload power. Do you understand what baseload means? I think you don't. Can I urge you (and others) to read "The Case for Baseload" to assist you to understand what baseload means in the electricity industry (as opposed to the way renewable energy advocates are trying to re define it)
  16. We're heading into an ice age
    Re: NQuestofApollo (126) To summarize: You have taken issue with this statement I made earlier:
    "We have known about the GHG effect of CO2 for nearly two centuries - this is well-understood and not seriously questioned by any competent scientist anywhere. Google Tyndall, Arrhenius or Fourier sometime."
     Am I correct? Proceeding as if so; granted its been some 25 years since my college days, but it's my understanding that the GHE is basic physics, taught in high-schools these days. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. It doesn't change the fact that the GHE is basic physics; numerous videos are available on Youtube attesting to and demonstrating that fact that you can replicate in your home by you, if so inclined.
    "It should be possible to explain the laws of physics to a barmaid." ~ Albert Einstein
     I think I'll go out right now to ascertain how performable this is for the GHE; wish me luck... PS: To make the moderators life here a little easier, please keep in mind the topic of the thread you post questions on. For example, this thread is about "Are we heading into a new Ice Age?". For question other than the focus of this thread, such as your references to the Oregon Petition or Climategate, please use the search function in the upper left of each page to find a more appropriate thread to post those concerns on. Comments deemed off-topic will be deleted. Thanks in advance! The Yooper
  17. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Just some comments about land/resource use: 1. Hydro will almost always have negative impact on landscape, but used in conjunction with solar/wind/biomass, with pumping, it can be rather non-invasive, considered its effect. Huge dams and small heights is something entirely different, and not distinguishing the different forms for utilization seems rather unserious to me. 2. It is rather incredible for me to have discussions about wind power without any reference to possible optimizations of stable output whatsoever. A system-wide optimization will almost always lead to very different design from local optimizations (for example operators maximizing their total production, with small or no regard to total supply situation, and subject to existing grid/transmission constraints). And the whole transmission system may have to be changed a lot. Which may require huge initial investments, but total costs over system lifetime are not necessarily very high. 3. It is impossible to discuss future energy systems on the basis of simple system changes, like phasing in PV, "everything else being equal". Even with no introduction of renewables at all, everything else will _not_ be equal over the course of some decades, which is the actual planning horizon for energy systems. I have to repeat it: "Baseload" is _not_ a well defined quantity, and with sufficiently strong incentives, renewables will _per definition_ be able to cover baseload. (As they have done in human history until fossil fuels came into widespread use.)
  18. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Awareness about the cost of renewables is spreading in Australia. Here are some recent examples: 1. "The Great Wind Rush" An excellent article in the 'Weekend Australian' about wind energy (and reference to the emission avoidance costs from my 2009 paper): http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/the-great-wind-rush/story-fn59niix-1225961297137 2. "Emission Reductions are not Blowin' in the Wind" - Another excellent article in Monday’s 'Australian' comparing the costs of low emissions generation technologies and dismissing wind and solar. This is a good article ands well worth reading (unfortunately the chart is not shown in the article) http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/emission-reductions-are-not-blowin-in-the-wind/story-fn59niix-1225962376534 You can see the chart here: http://bravenewclimate.com/2010/11/28/nuclear-is-the-least-cost-low-carbon-baseload-power-source/ 4. About three weeks ago, the NSW state government cut its feed in tariff for solar PV from 60c/kWh to 20c/kWh 5. The Australian Capital Territory (ACT) Government (A Labor-Green alliance), about two weeks ago, admitted its solar power program will increase the cost of electricity for users by about 25%. This has come as a shock and wake up call to the ACT residents (the greenest of all Australian State and Territory governments) 6. Yesterday the federal government cut its subsidies to the up front costs of solar panels from $6300 to $5000 per 1.5kW. It also announced the subsidies would be cut further each year and would be phased out a year earlier than previously planned. They also announced that cutting the subsidy from $6300 to $5000 would save the average householder $12 per year. So the Federal subsidy alone costs the average householder about $60 per year. The Feed in tariffs cost far more. To put this in perspective, solar power generates about 0.1% of Australia’s electricity. Imagine what the subsidies would be if solar generated 10%, 20% or 50% of our electricity. Playing with numbers: 50% / 0.1% x ($60 + $225) pa = $142,500 pa per household subsidy. Sure, you can pick at details about the numbers, but try to understand the scale of just how ludicrous is what we’ve been doing trying to promote solar and wind power.
  19. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    I'm looking for it, but in the interim, the key to the molecules behaving differently comes from two basic factors. The first is that energy can be gained or lost through one of two mechanisms (in this model); absorption/emission of radiation, or through a collision. The second is the fact that the density of the atmosphere dramatically changes the relative probabilities and likely timings of the two events. In the more dense troposphere, collisions are more likely, and so likely that they will probably occur before a CO2 molecule gets a chance to emit its vibrational energy as radiation (but not always, and the reverse can happen, too). In the less dense stratosphere, collisions are highly unlikely, and so a CO2 molecule is more likely to emit its vibrational energy as radiation before colliding with another molecule. But I'll keep looking for the source. All I remember right now was that it included a fairly effective flash animation of CO2 and O2/N2 molecules (close up, so to speak). I think it was put together by a major MSM news corporation, but that part is fuzzy in my addled mind.
  20. Ice age predicted in the 70s
    cjshaker, number 7 in your list states : A model of future climate based on the observed orbital-climate relationships, but ignoring anthropogenic effects, predicts that the long-term trend over the next sevem thousand years is toward extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation. Does William Connelly interpret this paper a different way ?
  21. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter... Also, I would hold that commenting on China's 20% renewables is exactly on topic. You're saying that anything over 10% is not feasible. China quite obviously does not agree with you. Please see the following: Large-scale baseload wind power in China Debra J. Lew, Robert H. Williams, Xie Shaoxiong, Zhang Shihui 2009.
  22. Renewable Baseload Energy
    @Peter Lang "Most of China's renewables are hydro. [...]So the comment about China targeting 20% renewables is off topic." The argument from Chu was probably more referring to something like the Martinot report [1]. So for 2020, the goal is 500 GWp renewable energy in China of which 200 GWp are non-hydro. I am reluctant to agree to your point that that qualifies to be "off-topic"when we talk about baseload. You repeatedly state "[...] renewables cannot provide baseload generation" but i actually have the impression your argument is more about "If we ignore cost, I guess anything is "possible"." as you said in #202. I strongly propose we distinguish between those two: a couple of posters (including me) linked studies which show that technically, renewables can provide baseload power as a reliable power source to the energy mix. Regarding cost of these renewable baseload solutons I admit that i have no data regarding the cost but my guess is that they are higher than established solutions. However, this does not quaify for not being considered at all. The question then is: are all externalized costs accounted for when talking about cost of established solutions of baseload? And second: how fast can cost for renewable baseload power decrease? Third: is the society willing to accept the (lets say) "activtion cost" for this change to happen? Of course the final solution must be an economicaly viable under given boundary conditions (which might change by the way: politically and economically). I am not questioning the ability of society to bear it, but the willingness is a different thing. How could something like the bold race to the moon actually work out if you look at economics only? #225 "adelady, You link didn't work." copy it manually and remove the last slash "\", then it works fine. [1] http://www.martinot.info/Martinot_FEP4_prepub.pdf
    Moderator Response: [Daniel Bailey] Fixed that link per your tip; thanks!
  23. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter... I don't believe Dr. Chu is talking about hydro or nuclear. I think he's only talking about wind and solar. Here is what I find: "In 2009, the rumored energy targets for China for 2020 were 300 GW Hydro, 75GW nuclear, 150GW from renewable if targets are reached. 46% of power would be from non-coal sources if natural gas usage is increased as projected." Link. So, China is looking at 46% carbon-free electricity by 2020. So, I still hold your statement that anything over 10% renewables (wind and solar) is not feasible to be inaccurate. If you will notice as well, China is putting in twice as much wind/solar as they are nuclear. Why would that be? It's certainly not because of protesters or onerous regulation. Could it be that wind and solar have other big advantages? Exportable technologies. Improving efficiencies. Low hazards (failures). No hazardous materials.
  24. We're heading into an ice age
    More for NQuestofApollo to read, this time concerning CO2/temperature correlation : Go here, an external website for a change. Very technical, though, so be warned.
  25. We're heading into an ice age
    More for NQuestofApollo to read, this time concerning mid-century cooling : Go here. There are three different versions there, so pick the one you feel most comfortable with.
  26. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    Sphaerica - 39 I can't say that I understand the mechanism that you describe. Could you provide the source. It does seem odd that in a situation where you have two types of molecules all at the same temperature, one type of molecule is going to lose energy while the other gains energy. It seems to defy some fundamental law such as heat energy can only be transferred from a hot to a cold body and not from a cold to a hot body. Also, Gavin basically told me that I was correct in my explanation. Bob
  27. We're heading into an ice age
    More for NQuestofApollo to read, this time concerning the Arctic : Go here, here, here, here, and here.
  28. Renewable Baseload Energy
    adelady, You link didn't work. Can you provide a link showing how much of Australia's electricity is supplied by geothermal? Since you probably wont, I'll answer the question for other readers. The answer is nil! Furthermore, the hot dry/fractured rock type of geoothermal Australia is trying to develop has never been successful anywhere in the world despite almost 40 years of attempts. Sure, we will get a little from demonstration plants in time, at huge cost to the tax payer, but it is insignificant. It is another massive waste of time, effort and a diversion of resources from solutions that have proved they can actually cut emissions significantly - in fact, theese solutions could cut emissions from electricity generation by nearly 100% in about 30 years, and do so in an economically rational way.
    Moderator Response: [Daniel Bailey] Fixed adelady's link per swieder's guidance; works now.
  29. We're heading into an ice age
    126: "I've been told to look at the sea ice extent. So, I have - it has increase for the last three years." Sorry, but that's just flat wrong. Someone has been feeding you some bogus information. See SkS articles here, here and here, among others; also Arctic sea ice falls to third-lowest extent; downward trend persists
  30. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Michael Sweet, “I am tired of the unsupported claims from nuclear proponents” Likewise, I am tired of the unsupported claims about non-hydro renewables being able to provide baseload power. If non-hydro renewables can provide baseload generation, in significant quantities, show me where it is being done. I am not interested in theoretical studies by the advocates who are being fed almost entirely by tax payers’ money. Show me actual output from solar thermal and wind generation that demonstrate they can provide baseload generation. I am looking for charts like Figure 6 and 7 here which shows the actual output from a solar PV station at 30 minute intervals for two years. Note that the capacity factor on the worst days in winter is 0.75%. Some baseload! So, please, for a start, show me two years of output from a solar thermal station with capacity factor around 85% and availability over 90%. If you are going to argue that if you throw enough renewable technologies into the mix, then provide the costs. I’ll advise that you can add as many technologies as you like, you will still not have reliable power and the capital cost is the sum of all the technologies – that is orders of magnitude more costly than with fossil fuel and baseload generators. France shows the proven, low cost way to generate near-zero emission electricity.
  31. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    damorbel - You should really read that article again. Carefully. Sunlight (like the electric heater in Spencers blog) passes through the atmosphere essentially unaffected by greenhouse gases, due to its spectra (primarily visible light). Thermal IR from the Earth, on the other hand, is strongly affected by greenhouse gas presence, which act as the 'blanket'. GHG's change the rate of loss, while input energy remains almost unchanged by them. Hence the atmosphere acts as a true "one-way mirror". Note that most sunlight passes through the atmosphere (affected mostly by Rayleigh scatter), while most IR does not (from Barrett Bellamy Climate) You've been pointed to this information multiple times, by multiple posters, yet you insist that your grasp of the physics is superior to the other contributors. I suggest you go read some of the very informative links you've been pointed to.
  32. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Geothermal not in Australia? Check out page 7 of this report and compare the geothermal numbers to any of the others.
  33. We're heading into an ice age
    More for NQuestofApollo to read, this time concerning the IPCC : Go here and you will see links to the 831 authors and the membership of the task groups. Wasn't difficult to find.
  34. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    In the above post, I responded to the wrong person. I meant to respond to damorbel
  35. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    damorbel, If you're contesting Dr Roy's very basic physics, you need to go back there, read his post again, skip all the comments but read all Dr Roy's responses to those comments. Your argument about insulating heat being "in" the container already is irrelevant. What matters is that the earth has constant input of heat / radiation. It just happens to be from the sun. KRs reference @251 really is a fantastic one. Even if it takes you all day or longer, read it, reread it, copy it by hand, rewrite it - leave it for a while and then read it again. Whatever. If study techniques need to be applied, apply them. Dr Roy is a good teacher.
  36. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    Sphaerica 39 I have added a footnote explaining that the fictitious planet that I am using is a physical impossibility. I stated further that it would be difficult to explain this basic concept with a more realistic and complex model. Bob
  37. We're heading into an ice age
    More for NQuestofApollo to read, this time concerning Himalayan glaciers : Go here, here, and here.
  38. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    Bob, I remember seeing a completely different explanation for stratospheric cooling, and one which is easier to understand and makes more sense to me (as long as one understands what heat really is, and how energy is transferred between molecules in a gas). The gist of it was that in the more dense troposphere, a CO2 molecule is likely to absorb IR (in the appropriate band), and it is particularly likely to then collide with the more numerous O2 and N2 molecules (before simply re-radiating the energy away in the same band). In the collision, it transfers the energy (gained through IR) to the O2/N2 as translational kinetic energy, and in so doing heats the atmosphere. In the more rarefied stratosphere, CO2 is more likely to do the opposite, colliding with an O2 or N2 molecule, becoming excited by the collision (gaining vibrational energy), and then emitting the energy gained away as IR. Thus, increased amounts of CO2 warm the troposphere while cooling the stratosphere; they cause IR to primarily be an absorption mechanism in the troposphere, and an emission mechanism in the stratosphere. In this explanation, it's not merely the blocking of the CO2 IR band in the troposphere which causes the cooling, but rather an active effect of CO2 within the stratosphere itself. Can you reconcile the differences in the explanations? Is this description wrong? Or are they both accurate and true?
  39. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Rob Honeycutt, "Did you miss the part where Steven Chu just stated that China is going to be 20% renewables by 2020?" Most of China's renewables are hydro. I stated in some posts, and obviusly need to say it in every post, that I am referring to non-hydro renewables when I say renewables cannot provide baseload generation. I should also say that biomass and geothermal, in volcanic areas but not Australia, can provide baseload generation but in insignificantly small quantities. The thread is about baseload. So the comment about China targeting 20% renewables is off topic.
  40. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    damorbel as I said and you apparently did not read, part of the spectrum. My impression is that you're not much confident with these simple physical concepts but you presume you know better.
  41. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    Re #251 you wrote:- " I would strongly suggest that you read the following, by Dr. Roy Spencer, climate skeptic, which directly addresses this topic:" I've read Roy Spencer on this matter, he's wrong. He uses the 'insulation' argument for CO2 etc. keeping heat 'in' (the atmosphere). This insulation/blanket argument is invalid because insulators only contain heat when it is in the container already, either because it was put there from outside, like putting hot soup in a flask, or there is a source of heat like combustion or radioactivity 'contained' by the insulation. Heat that arrives from outside the container, like the Sun/Earth arrangement is just as effecively kept out of a container (flask etc.) as it is kept inside. Eventually the contents of an insulated container revert to ambient temperature, your soup or coffee gets cold and your ice cream melts. What a shame!
  42. Renewable Baseload Energy
    Peter Lang #215 I've asked you questions about things like synergisic effects, distributed generation, efficiency gains in the past, but you have not answered any of these questions. They're important issues which need to be considered when assessing electricity generation resources, but you don't seem to want to do so. I haven't actually expressed any opinion on nuclear energy, so attacking my position as ideologically driven kneejerk anti-nuclear seems a bit of a stretch. However, from the fact that you haven't answered my perfectly reasonable questions, I can only assume that you won't because you have something to hide.
  43. Renewable Baseload Energy
    The issue is "can baseload power come from renewables". The nuclear issue is separate from "can baseload come from renewables". Nuclear proponents have already hijacked several threads with their claims. Everyone agrees that nuclear can generate baseload energy if it can overcome its other problems. I am tired of the unsupported claims from nuclear proponents, see the linked thread. I have seen their claims more than once and do not need to see them repeated again here. I am agnostic about how much nuclear will end up being best, but it is tiring to have these wild claims repeated again and again.
  44. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    Re OP It says:- "a fictitious planet with an atmosphere consisting of carbon dioxide and an inert gas such as nitrogen at pressures equivalent to those on earth. This atmosphere will have a troposphere and a stratosphere" The stratosphere is caused by the warming effect of UV energy absorbed by O2 & O3; this couldn't happen in an atmosphere free of O2; no other atmospheric gas absorbs UV in the same way. This warming due to UV absorption produces a classical temperature inversion, suppressing convection; the result is the well known absence of storms etc. in the stratosphere. The absence of storms is one of the reasons why airliners fly there.
  45. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    damorbel - Your physics are so far off it is difficult to know where to start. But I would strongly suggest that you read the following, by Dr. Roy Spencer, climate skeptic, which directly addresses this topic: Yes, Virginia, Cooler Objects Can Make Warmer Objects Even Warmer Still A quote from this, involving heated plates as a thought experiment: "Since the temperature of an object is a function of both energy gain AND energy loss, the temperature of the plate (or anything else) can be raised in 2 basic ways: (1) increase the rate of energy gain, or (2) decrease the rate of energy loss. The temperature of everything is determined by energy flows in and out, and one needs to know both to determine whether the temperature will go up or down. This is a consequence of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics involving conservation of energy."
  46. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    Andy - 35 It wouldn't be difficult for Gavin to explain if he was explaining it to a college sophmore Physics major. He would talk about the absorption spectrum as I have done. In my opinion, you cannot explain it without talking about the absorption spectrum which is what Gavin is trying to do in the referenced link.
  47. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    Re #248 CBDunkerson you wrote:- "damorbel #247: "Tom they would be absorbed by any 'target'." That's a yes. Ergo, global warming theory does not violate the second law of thermodynamics." You are going too fast. Since emitting (GH) gases absorb also there is no chance that any imbalance in thermal energy transfer will arise as described by 'back radiation' (i.e. W/m^2, J/s/m^2) as claimed by Trenberth. Not just 'insufficient' to cause 33K increase in surface temperature but none at all., the thermal energy transfer is going from the surface to the troposphere, cooling the surface as it goes. You must realise that with a full transparent atmosphere (no GHGs) the cooling radiation would all come from the surface, so what's the big deal? The surface would have just the same temperature it has now.
  48. Stratospheric Cooling and Tropospheric Warming
    This 1950s video is fascinating, from the days when people knew how to explain things using animation: http://lasp.colorado.edu/igy_nas/flash_videos/theInconstantAir.html I think I got the link from Grumbines blog a few months ago.
  49. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    Re #240 Riccardo you wrote:- "any body may behave like a blackbody in a frequency range and not in others. In particular, the earth surface is very near a blackbody in the IR range of interest." Not so. IR is just a colour the same as red, yellow, green etc. and there is an albedo (reflection) in the IR also. The IR emissions from H20, CO2 etc. do not follow the smooth black body emission spectrum, instead the spectrum is highly irregular meaning that, for substantial parts of Earth's emission spectrum there is no radiation from the GHGs. Now you could argue that radiation from Earth 'fills in the gaps' but you will also have to explain why the material that reflects the sunlight to give Earth an albedo doesn't also reflect radiation originating in coming from Earth. There is no real 'one way' reflection effect, what you have for the ladies changing room is a cunning lighting effect that gives the impression of a 'one way' mirror. The cause of Earth's 30% albedo also causes a reflection of 30% (inwards) of the radiation coming out from the planet. That is why the temperature of a planet like Earth is independent of the albedo.
  50. 2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
    damorbel #247: "Tom they would be absorbed by any 'target'." That's a yes. Ergo, global warming theory does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. Now you are just quibbling about the magnitude of the effect. Which, as various people have pointed out, is a measured fact. Heck, Fourier made a pretty good stab at estimating it nearly two hundred years ago when he discovered the temperature discrepancy and first proposed what we now call the greenhouse effect as a possible explanation.

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