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Comments 104751 to 104800:

  1. Real experts don't know everything
    People have all kinds of reasons for denying reality. For instance. I remember reading a writeup on John Christy which described him telling a group of Sunday school kids that 'crazy environmentalists are trying to destroy the economy because they do not believe that God provides'. It was horrifying... indoctrinating children with this nonsense as part of religious instruction. How can people do this? I think the terrible truth is that many of them BELIEVE the insanity they spout. Separation of church and state is long gone... and what they don't seem to have ever realized was that it was meant to protect religion from political corruption as much as it was to protect politics from religion. We need only look at the Taliban, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, and hundreds of other examples to see the havoc than can be brought about when religion is employed as a tool to control people rather than a philosophy to uplift them.
  2. Anne-Marie Blackburn at 23:27 PM on 10 November 2010
    Real experts don't know everything
    JMurphy
    More importantly, though : how are they allowed to get away with it every time ?
    I think this is what baffles me most. 'Merchants of Doubt' has done a great job of exposing it all but maybe we need something a bit more concise. The internet should be a great platform for this.
  3. littlerobbergirl at 23:25 PM on 10 November 2010
    Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Hi Dana, keep up the good work. Here's another take on the 'wedge' system, developed by the Centre for Alternative Technology (C.A.T.) for the U.K. specifically; Zero Carbon Britain 2030
  4. Real experts don't know everything
    I can't imagine what it must be like to be one of that tiny band of politically-motivated scientists, especially over their actions to prevent measures tackling smoking, second-hand smoking, etc. How are they able to sleep at night or look themselves in the mirror each morning ? How can they justify their actions to themselves morally ? More importantly, though : how are they allowed to get away with it every time ?
  5. CO2 effect is saturated
    #40 KR "Norman, detrending the data without saying you're doing it is rather deceptive (the real data is there, but at least one level deeper, and the detrended graphs are not labeled clearly as such)." Not sure which page in Climate4you you looked at. You must have done a very quick look to make the conclusion it is a a "junk" site. He does label his graphs as detrended and he explains the purpose (sometimes it pay to take time to read what the analysis is about). The claim was made that the warming from 1981 to present was unique. The warming slope from 1908 to 1940 is very similar to the present one. Have another look and see what the person is attempting with his analysis.
  6. Real experts don't know everything
    FYI, here's a video of a lecture that I saw Dr. Oreskes present at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography about three years ago: http://ucsd.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=13459 The same nefarious cast of characters who tried to undermine the science linking smoking with lung cancer are pulling the same sleazy stunts regarding the science linking fossil-fuel use and global warming.
  7. Real experts don't know everything
    RSVP #4 "Yes, but it's the patient that makes the choice, and bears the responsibility of the decision. It would be intereting to know when climate scientists realized they know what's good for you, and what you need." The problem with this solipsistic view is that the consequences do not only affect the individual "patient". If sufficient "patients", deciding what they think is good for them, ignore the dentists they will bear the responsibility not only for what happens to them (which would be fair) but for what happens to everybody else in the world, and the plants and animals and everything else that makes up the eco-systems that support us - which would be less than fair. Some would call the ignorant, but arrogant with it, selfish view monstrously stupid. It is certainly irresponsible.
  8. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Berényi Péter your photos highlight some of my concerns about solar farms that use currently inefficient technology. I am quite concerned about the impact on the biodiversity in the areas that are suitable for them. People forget that scrub land, desserts etc. are actually rich in life that has adapted to those conditions and you only see it when there is rain or flooding. It only appears for a few weeks or months. I think wind farms have a smaller impact although probably are not suitable for desserts etc. There are a lot of interesting ideas around. I was interested recently in the idea of harvesting the heat stored under cities and towns, that causes the urban heat island effect: http://environmentalresearchweb.org/cws/article/news/44135 We should exploit resources that are caused by our own existing developments, before exploiting the natural landscape more.
  9. Keep those PJs on: a La Niña cannot erase decades of warming
    Can somebody with a better understanding of the facts that me please respond to this? http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/11/09/david-whitehouse-the-climate-coincidence-why-is-the-temperature-unchanging/#more-27622 ? I know it's been written by a chap from a think tank with a particular view but he does seem to be writing from a perspective of knowledge. Is he right, wrong or spinning the facts?
  10. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    RSVP@77 The solar panel would cause a delay in warming via conduction or emission. eg. if it was hundred percent efficient, eventually the energy would be converted to heat or work by the device(s) it was connected to. But this energy would escape, as it does in the natural world. In theory renewables are the only non-warming (over time) energy source. It has been pointed out that if you added a very large number of nuclear and geothermal power stations and operated them 24/7, you would eventually warm the planet by a few degrees. But it would require an enormous expansion of nuclear energy.
  11. Real experts don't know everything
    Arkadiusz #6 Would you care to justify that assertion? It seems to me that when the (generally low quality) climate sceptic scientific papers come out, they're generally in journals with poor governance, and/or based on research funded by the fossil fuel companies, or their associates. Would you care to demonstrate how that impression is wrong?
  12. Keep those PJs on: a La Niña cannot erase decades of warming
    31.Alexandre "Gosh, will these guys draw the "it's cooling" argument at every La Nina? Even in the middle of a record-braking 2010?" Erm Alexandre heres the ENSO index for the past 5 years. and here's the mean monthly global temperature. It looks like La Nina do introduce short term period of cooling it seems wrong to suggest otherwise. Did you read Art's article? It seems like a fair description of La Nina. In the bit were he strays into global warming territory what he actually says is there has been no nett warming or cooling since 1999, you are mis-representing him. I guess it makes your eye rolling dismissal of him much easier that way.
  13. Arkadiusz Semczyszak at 19:19 PM on 10 November 2010
    Real experts don't know everything
    “smoking” and now also phthalates - here actually of the scientific work - denying the harmfulness - is financed in 99% (or maybe even 100%) by the tobacco and phthalates manufacturers - “think tanks”. If the number of climate scientists have only "scientific" reasons to be skeptical, is much greater. Conclusion: The comparison of skeptics such as the dangers of smoking and the climate skeptics is: extremely unfair and inappropriate from the standpoint of scientific methodology.
  14. Skeptical Science moving into solutions
    Let me try and frame the problem humanity faces and that needs to be addressed. 1. Is the Science of AGW solid? Obviously it is, although our understanding of what the magnitude of the change will be relative to the forcing is still somewhat unclear. 2. Is the Science well accepted? Among the scientific world yes. Among small parts of the community such as our corner of the Blogosphere, yes. Among much of the broader community? Significantly yes although this varies hugely from country to country. But this acceptance is substantially based on trust rather than knowledge. And among significant percentages in some countries no, based on lack of understanding, mendaciousness, or simple classical psychological denial. 3. Is the Severity well understood; how big an impact will a temp rise of X have? How many people will die as a result? Among the scientific world substantially yes although not totally. Among small parts of the community such as our corner of the Blogosphere, ditto. Among much of the broader community? significantly NOT. That change is happening may be accepted. But a visceral grasp of how serious this is doesn't seem to be common. Something to be worried about rather than utterly terrified by. And among the the deniers of the change, claims of its severity are 'Alarmist' twaddle. 4. Is the Urgency of the required action well understood? Among the scientific world substantially yes although not totally. Among small parts of the community such as our corner of the Blogosphere, ditto. Among much of the broader community? significantly NOT. That change is happening may be accepted. But why we need to act now when the change is so far away doesn't seem to be commonly understood. We can deal with it in good time. So: 'we need policies to deal with Climate Change' rather than 'For God sake, Somebody hit the Big Red Button' And among the the deniers of the change, claims of its urgency are 'Alarmist' twaddle heaped on twaddle. 5. Do we have the answers to solve the problem now? Yes, just barely. But the impacts would be huge. I know Dana's post is about the multiple wedges and a more conventional analysis of economic impacts. But I am not convinced that we are yet grappling with how the multiple technical, economic, environmental and follow on social challenges we face intersect and compound each other: How does ocean acidification intersect with seafood stock depletion due to over-fishing? How do raw materials limitations impact on the viability of renewable technologies - lithium, indium for example? If we phase out Coal use rapidly and replace it with renewables, not only do we need to shut down coal power plants before the end of their economic life - a huge capital loss to the world, but we also need to write off the capital value of the 3/4 of the worlds coal reserves that we can't afford to mine - an even bigger hit to the World's Balance Sheet. How do rising population, the Hydrological Crisis and the precipitation impacts of AGW intersect to impact on food security? What wars and social collapses could be triggered by this? If the rise of affluence continues in China, India etc (and if we have the right to it, so do they), how do we handle the ever growing demands on the Earths resources. 6. Do we know how to change the worlds economic systems to handle the changes required if the impact of these changes would otherwise be unrealistic? Not solving this threat isn't a viable strategy, so how do the worlds systems need to change to make the solution possible. Currently the line is that we can decarbonise, become 'sort of' sustainable and then it can still be business as usual. Is that valid? Or do we need to ask whether far more profound changes will be needed. How do we bring them about. What has to change in how our world works to make this possible? Are countries still the appropriate entities for encapsulating our actions? Can Capitalism survive in a world of zero growth, and if not, what replaces it. Countries like America appeared during the first Age of Revolutions. The 20th Century was the Second Age of Revolutions - all sorts of ism's. And pretty much all of them failed. So what is the next option if Capitalism has reached it's Use By Date because we can't afford growth anymore. 7. And if we need to make society wide changes, how do we get there from here? How do we bring everyone with us without triggering peoples self-preservation instincts to fight against it? 8. And what are the Psychological, Sociological and Anthropological dimensions of all this? Items 1 to 4 above cover the sort of Denialist psychological landscape we are already familiar with. But 5 & 6 take us into areas that are almost Taboo. For each one of us, what is the threshold over which we cannot cross, where it becomes too hard to contemplate. AGW is a danger, but surely not 'The End Of Civilisation'. Effectively are we all not Denialists? Each of us can only go so far before it becomes to overwhelming; just some of us can go further than others. The psychological dimension of why individuals, communities, nations, an entire species are not adequately able to respond to such a vast and terrible threat needs to be looked at very, very hard. Obviously, the scope of what I have outlined above is vast. I don't think John has enough hours in the day, even with his growing army of helpers to encompass this. So what subject areas will give us the most 'bang for our buck', will contribute the most to driving 'the change' relative the effort we can put in. Personally I would plum for pushing 3 & 4 because we are already pushing on 2 - that is the whole point of John's site. Then 7 & 8. Because that addresses the question of how to achieve 5 & 6. Do we need to be opening discussions about Fear, Denial, Existential questions. Why we might retreat into our private worlds and lives rather than confront things that are too big or too disturbing. The Technology of 'The Change' might be interesting. The psychology of 'The Change' is Life & Death. Because everything else flows from it.
  15. Real experts don't know everything
    Yes, that's a good point. I would be suspicious of anyone who claimed to have across-the-board expertise in climate change studies. The field is too complex, the flood of new publications too copious. Everybody has to rely on a range of other experts. And if somebody lets the side down by sneaking through dodgy work in a key field we all suffer.
  16. Real experts don't know everything
    "...we must trust our dentist to decide how to fill our teeth,.." Yes, but it's the patient that makes the choice, and bears the responsibility of the decision. It would be intereting to know when climate scientists realized they know what's good for you, and what you need.
  17. Keep those PJs on: a La Niña cannot erase decades of warming
    6.John Bruno John i think your being silly in the first paragraph, I'm not sure what point you're making with it other than sarcasm. Fig 3 still remains an extraordinarily poor choice when trying to look at the variation in global temp introduced by ENSO. I'm not really interested in peaks and troughs and cycle averages it's much simpler than that. Global mean temp is the favoured metric in climate science, I'm interested in what sort of variability the ENSO sytem introduces into that metric, It seems fair to say that if we take 1998 as an example ENSO can introduce upto 0.7oC change to the global mean surface temp in a very short time period, that seems like a fairly solid fact, I don't really understand your objection to it. I don't get your cherry pickings suggestion, other than to think it's just a knee jerk response from an alarmist who thinks he's trying to put down a denier. Maybe you should write to CRU and NASA GISS to let them know their mean monthly global temperature records are not acceptable. I'm happy to agree with you for now that ENSO doesn't have any affect on long term trends but it does impact in the short term in a big way (potentially as big as whatever is driving the longer term trend). So any short term descriptions of the global temp need to be seen in this light. So those descriptions from the NASA GISS report "2010-How warm was this summer" should all have explanations of how El Nini is influencing them. Obviously they don't because any description of natural variability would confuse the message. Whether 2010 turns out to be the hottest year on record is now largely going to depend on whether the present La Nina will start impacting on global temp enough before the end of the year. The fact that 2010 is is in line for hottest year ever is in part due to the lingering effect of the most recent El Nino.
  18. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Marcus #59 Your point is well taken about using roof space, its decentralized modular nature, and how roof space is not normally available to agriculture, however in 73 you do a 180 and "certainly do detract from your original point". And aside from your point, compare the radiative qualities of a black body (black shale roofing, or even tar paper) to a solar panel. The solar panel is "sequestering" heat all day. Using photovoltaics to create electricity surely reduces CO2 (which isnt bad), but its not so clear overall that they make the Earth cooler. The most efficient solar panel would be one that when you touched it midday, it would be nice and cool. A hot roof on the other hand is actually radiating heat into space.
  19. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    dana1981: Wow BP, cherrypicking at its finest. Truly. And why do I have this suspicion that his worries about land use in the desert West would evaporate if we were talking about an ideologically acceptable power source like coal, oil or nuclear?
  20. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Speaking of air-conditioning, has anyone heard anything recently about that solar-thermal-powered air-conditioning system being developed by ANU? Most recent stuff I can find is the press release from February last year. Stuff like this has the potential to make a *massive* dent in electricity usage, particularly in Australia.
  21. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    As for distributed solar generation, I see a big future for some of the newer technology incorporating solar function into roof materials. May not be affordable or sensible initially for domestic applications, but when you look at all the schools, stadiums and churches with large roof areas and only intermittent use for their own purposes, there's a large potential. Especially when you consider Australia and other hot places' need for cooking and air conditioning at exactly the times schools are using nil or little power. Between 4 & 8 pm in summer on workdays, all weekends, as well as school holidays, there's a big source with no additional land use involved at all. Add in solar thermal and some geothermal for baseload and a bit of wind for cold and cloudy weather, looks good. And can we please take into account the enormous demands on the water supply for all power plants that burn stuff. Water is used for both mining the fuel and for operating the plants. In a world of more droughts, or at least more unreliable water supplies, this has to be a big consideration.
  22. Real experts don't know everything
    HR, the Currys, etc fit uncomfortably between the industry driven or ideologically driven organisations and mainstream science. Different things drive different individuals and none of us knows any of these people well enough to accurately assess them. But for the rest of us, bodies that set up organisations with misleading names really are 'shadowy'. Many of them are truly Orwellian in the doublespeak involved when using words like 'ecological' or 'environmental'. And remember, this talk is promoting Oreskes' presentation, so the tone suggesting that there are organisations set up for the express purpose of misleading people is appropriate. It correctly conveys what Oreskes will be talking about - so it's honest. No-one going to hear Oreskes will be surprised by what she says if their decision to attend is based on this promotion.
  23. Real experts don't know everything
    This seems horribly off the mark. Just deal with the idea/argument. Why concern yourself with labelling the individual making the comment? Either the idea has some validity or not. What you seem to be suggesting is closing down the scope of the debate to those officially sanctioned. Call me suspicious but I'm only really suspicious of people who suggest whom I should and shouldn't be suspicious of. Shadowy "think tanks"???? Isn't it the job of a think tanks to be out in the open, putting forward their ideas and agendas in as public a way as possible. Isn't that what they do? Their ideas might be unpleasant to some of us but shadowy? This sounds like the worst sort of cold war paranoia from a second rate thriller. I thought we were passed this sort of nonsense. My suggestion is read as much as you can, from both sides of the debate, as much science as you can and keep doing this to shape and inform your position. It's not so difficult for people to work out who has good ideas and who are off the scale. Personnally I think there's lots to be learnt from both sides of the debate no matter what your own personal position is. I recommend you don't listen to people who want to simply close down the debate. Where do Judith Curry, the Pielkes, Lindzen etc fit into your shadowy world?
  24. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    A couple of other real-world projects that show how off-beam Beranyi & his "source" actually are. The Sarnia Solar Farm in Ontario, Canada (hardly the sunniest part of the world), has 80MW of peak capacity & covers an area of around 900,000 square meters-or about 80 Watts/square meter. Nellis Airforce Base-14MW facility occupying a total of roughly 500,000 square meters-or about 30 Watts/square meter. Both of the above examples used technologies from earlier this decade (& probably not even the best available), yet we're seeing that even the very *worst* energy densities are 4 times greater than the 25+ year-old project BP uses to try & dismiss solar energy out of hand. Certainly these examples don't detract from my original points, which were: (1) the modular nature of photovoltaics means you don't need to build it as a single, large power station-but instead distribute it over a wide geographic area-to reduce its footprint; (2) that even if you *were* t build it as a single, large power station-photovoltaics have a smaller footprint than a coal or nuclear power station *if* you consider the footprint of the associated mine (& even more-so if you also account for the land area needed to dump associated waste); (3) If built as a single, large power station, photovoltaics work best when sited in areas that are otherwise devoid of economic value (like desert). Recent events in Northern NSW proves this is *not* the case for coal!
  25. Real experts don't know everything
    Of all the trades to use to make the desired point, plumbers would have to the worst choice. Plumbers are notorious for exploiting the ignorance and gullibility of those who find the whole plumbing thing "yucky". Then again, maybe they do illustrate the point precisely.
  26. Pete Dunkelberg at 15:59 PM on 10 November 2010
    Ice-Free Arctic
    Arkadiusz Semczyszak @ 48: “Changes that took place 6000-7000 years ago were controlled by other climatic forces than those which seem to dominate today ... " D'oh! Why didn't I think of that? Changes in the distant past, whether local or global, were not caused by a plague of monkeys burning carbon. ;) muoncounter @ 51: Arkadi already mentioned that changes in the past had different causes, although we can still say that ice melts, and melted in the past due to sufficient energy in its environment to supply the heat of fusion. This is where ocean currents among other things come in.
  27. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Berényi - Your source seems a bit biased. Here's a few posting titles: - Post-Election, Post-Cap-and-Trade: Obama Clings to an Anti-CO2 Agenda - Wind Energy is Ancient (the infant industry argument for subsidies does not apply) - EPA’s Regs for Rigs – Fuel Economy Fetish Goes Diesel - Real Clean Coal: Japan’s Unit #2 Isogo Plant - “The Future of Economic Freedom” (A corporate call to principled action) - Halloween Hangover: Ehrlich, Holdren, Hansen Unretracted - Peeling Away the Onion of Denmark Wind (Part IV – CO2 Emissions) - Dear Peak Oilers: Please Consider Erich Zimmermann’s ‘Functional Theory’ of Mineral Resources - Solar Cheaper than Grid Nuclear? Think Again! - The All-Electric Car: Think 132-Year Payback (DOE’s Sandalow shows us what not to do) - ... Certainly not peer-reviewed material. And in fact I can see the axes being ground there.
  28. Ice-Free Arctic
    Re: Artful Dodger Thanks for the links, I'll check them out tomorrow afternoon when I have more time. Your ice expertise would be of great value here, if present more regularly. A possibility? Guest posts available... ( - AD runs away, screaming "No, my Precious! We mustn't writes us a guest post, Nooooo..." - ) The Yooper
  29. Ice-Free Arctic
    Hi, Daniel #47 (Go Spartans!) To followup with more ICESAT results, a NASA analysis of satellite data has quantified the amount of multiyear sea ice lost through melt from the Beaufort Sea (~30%) vs Advection through Fram Strait (~50%). See also this write-up on ClickGreen.org
  30. Skeptical Science moving into solutions
    John, Please accept my congratulations on your new venture. If you stick with your current style it should work well. From our private correspondence you know that camels often support solutions that you favor but for reasons that differ from yours. Good luck!
  31. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Ah, more cherry-picking at its finest Berenyi. A free-market Web-site. Kind of like those climate change denialist sites you're so fond of, hey Beranyi? When you can find data from a *neutral* source-not one pushing a pro-fossil fuel agenda down our throats-then I might take you seriously. Until then, I think you're the only one needing a reality check. An average, 1KW solar panel (of only about 10%-12% efficiency) is only 8 square meters in size-which amounts to around 125W/square meter. Of course there are already models on the market which exceed 25% efficiency, & there are models coming out of the lab that surpass 40% conversion efficiency. Go do some *proper* research Beranyi!
  32. Geological Society discuss climate change evidence from the geological record
    There's a special issue of the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B (Biological Science) — “Biological diversity in a changing world” out. Open access. One of the articles therein, The future of the oceans past by Jeremy B. C. Jackson closes with this:
    " There is an urgent need for immediate and decisive conservation action. Otherwise, another great mass extinction affecting all ocean ecosystems and comparable to the upheavals of the geological past appears inevitable."
    and
    "The question is whether we can overcome our apathy, ignorance, corruption and greed to act responsibly, or wait for catastrophe to strike."
     Sheesh! What's next, the Past Through Tomorrow? The Yooper
  33. Berényi Péter at 13:29 PM on 10 November 2010
    Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    I see a reality check is in order. Power Density Primer: Understanding the Spatial Dimension of the Unfolding Transition to Renewable Electricity Generation (Part IV – New Renewables Electricity Generation) by Vaclav Smil May 13, 2010
  34. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Nice article in Science Daily on direct current (DC) transmission networks for offshore wind farms here. Nice bit of out-of-the-box thinking reflected in the idea. The Yooper
  35. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Wow BP, cherrypicking at its finest.
  36. Berényi Péter at 12:58 PM on 10 November 2010
    CO2 effect is saturated
    #43 Tom Dayton at 10:58 AM on 10 November, 2010 BP, those graphs you pasted were presented and discussed thoroughly in the comments section of the post Have American Thinker Disproven Global Warming? Not thoroughly enough. Near-global difference spectrum of brightness temperature between 750 cm-1 and 900 cm-1, where the atmospheric window is really transparent (except for the water vapor continuum), is about +2 K. No layer has warmed nearly that much between 1970 and 1996, therefore the upper troposphere must have got more transparent at this IR frequency band, making lower (warmer) layers "visible" to satellites. It means a negative water vapor feedback. Worth mentioning that effective warming (by lowering) of photosphere in this band should have been even greater, because brightness temperatures are calculated for black body equivalent temperatures, while actual emissivity is always lower than that. It is also consistent with balloon radiosonde measured decreasing humidity trends above the 700 mbar level.
  37. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    sorry, I obviously meant *increase* the watts per square meter.
  38. Climategate CRU emails suggest conspiracy
    Re: Karamanski (22) It is a time-honored feature of American politics to repeat a lie so often that it becomes the truth. A feature we now see adopted by the MSM (controlled by their corporate masters). The X-Files featured this prominently back in the '90's with their running theme of plausible deniability. Oh, crap. Mod beat me with a much more literal response. Oh, well. The Yooper
  39. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Oh & BP, its worth noting that that's just the amount of electricity/square meter using very basic photovoltaic technology. If you're looking at *concentrated* photovoltaic power (which uses reflective mirrors to enhance the amount of light hitting the panels), then you could probably reduce the watts/square meter by a further 20% to 40%.
  40. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    I have just read that the International Energy Agency reckon that global coal demand is set to rise by 60% over the next 25 years, with China buring 50% of it in 2035. Not a good indicator of any reduction or levelling off of emissions.
  41. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Ah, spoken like a true Coal Power advocate Berényi Péter-first of all you totally ignored my main point (namely the amount of viable roof-space that could be put to work making solar-power), then dredge up a single, almost 30-year old case to try & dismiss my secondary point. The top-most picture is simply an example of failure to rehabilitate a site, & a poor choice of site to begin with. We're talking true *deserts* here BP, not plains like the one you conveniently have a picture of. A modern photovoltaic array could get around 60W-250W/sq. meter (depending on the conversion efficiency of the cells), which kind of stomps your pathetic argument into the ground-as a 6MW facility in modern terms would use up less than 10 square meters of space (between 2-8 square meters actually). As I said in my previous post, you could then build a 1,200MW PV plant *not* by building a *single* 1.6 square kilometer facility, but by building about 8-10 160 square meter facilities-easy to do with available roof-space!
  42. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Berényi Péter @ #62: So, what you're saying is that because a solar PV plant built with 30-year-old technology was an inefficient use of space, that any new plant using 3 times more efficient PV cells is necessarily a waste of space? And lets look at that 1000MW coal plant. The power plant itself might only use a couple of km2. But the mine used to power that? If you happen to live in an area where coal mines are all underground, that might only add a few more km2, so maybe 10km2 total. If it's open cut, like the majority of coal mines in this part of the world, then you're talking about a couple of km2 of additional area affected per year. Over a 30-year mine life, the areas can get pretty big (thinking back to one I worked in as a student some 18 years ago, it affected about 50km2 at the time, and had only been in operation for about 5 years - I'd hate to think what it's footprint is now!).
  43. Climategate CRU emails suggest conspiracy
    There have been five major investigations by experts into the climategate frenzy, and none of them found any evidence whatsoever of fraud, or misconduct. Yet the conservative media is still cherishes the nonscandal as if it is the latest news. I find this amusing and laughable. Why won't the conservative media stop? Its so irratating seeing this worn out climategate tantrum persisting. Does anyone have any explanations for this?
    Response: That's six investigations, actually:
    1. February 2010. the Pennsylvania State University released an Inquiry Report that investigated any 'Climategate' emails involving Dr Michael Mann, a Professor of Penn State's Department of Meteorology. They found that "there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had or has ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with an intent to suppress or to falsify data". On "Mike's Nature trick", they concluded "The so-called “trick”1 was nothing more than a statistical method used to bring two or more different kinds of data sets together in a legitimate fashion by a technique that has been reviewed by a broad array of peers in the field."
    2. March 2010. UK government's House of Commons Science and Technology Committee published a report finding that the criticisms of the Climate Research Unit (CRU) were misplaced and that CRU’s "Professor Jones’s actions were in line with common practice in the climate science community".
    3. April 2010. University of East Anglia set up an international Scientific Assessment Panel, in consultation with the Royal Society and chaired by Professor Ron Oxburgh. The Report of the International Panel assessed the integrity of the research published by the CRU and found "no evidence of any deliberate scientific malpractice in any of the work of the Climatic Research Unit".
    4. June 2010. Pennsylvania State University published their Final Investigation Report, determining "there is no substance to the allegation against Dr. Michael E. Mann".
    5. July 2010. University of East Anglia published the Independent Climate Change Email Review report. They examined the emails to assess whether manipulation or suppression of data occurred and concluded that "The scientists’ rigor and honesty are not in doubt".
    6. September 2010. UK Government responded to the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report, chaired by Sir Muir Russell. On the issue of releasing data, they found "In the instance of the CRU, the scientists were not legally allowed to give out the data". On the issue of attempting to corrupt the peer-review process, they found "The evidence that we have seen does not suggest that Professor Jones was trying to subvert the peer review process. Academics should not be criticised for making informal comments on academic papers".
  44. Berényi Péter at 11:35 AM on 10 November 2010
    Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    #59 Marcus at 09:43 AM on 10 November, 2010 The main point though is that, whether built in deserts, fields or on rooftops, the nature of photovoltaic energy (& wind energy) is that they can harvest energy *without* necessarily disrupting whatever activity might otherwise occur on the site. Indeed. This photovoltaic plant was built on Carrizo plain, California in 1983, abandoned in 1994 and looks like this now. This is the native grassland at Carrizo plain. Or even prettier, sometimes. No disruption at all. The plant occupies 0.72 km2 and it has produced 5.2 MW at its prime (slightly more than 7 W/m2). With this land use efficiency a standard 1000 MW plant would destroy 140 km2, orders of magnitude more than a coal fired plant, open mines included.
  45. CO2 effect is saturated
    The question of the total outgoing longwave amount is addressed by Harries in his responses to John Cook's questions, in the green "Response" box of this comment on the American Thinker post.
  46. CO2 effect is saturated
    BP and Norman, in my previous comment I should have also said to look at Pierre-Normand's followup comment 78 on that other post, in which he corrected a misstatement he made in his comment 72. Also note that a large portion of the many comments on that post (Have American Thinker Disproven Global Warming?) is in response to the American Thinker article's writer suffering a similar misunderstanding that Norman has--that total outgoing longwave radiation must change in lockstep with greenhouse gas levels. See further the comments 80 by me and 81 by Pierre-Normand. The entire set of comments on that post is very enlightening, by folks far more knowledgeable than me, so I suggest that BP and Norman read them all.
  47. CO2 effect is saturated
    BP, those graphs you pasted were presented and discussed thoroughly in the comments section of the post Have American Thinker Disproven Global Warming?". Norman, the answer given to you by Riccardo is expanded in the comments of that other post. I suggest you start with comment 72 by Pierre-Normand, followed by my much less technical analogy in comment 71.
  48. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    The last point is definitely true. Prior to the invention of the Sine-Wave inverter (1982), the average cost of a solar cell was US$26/Watt. At last check (October 2010) they were only $3.59/Watt. Not only that, but average conversion efficiencies have tripled in that same length of time (from around 8% to 24%). By contrast, coal power costs about $1.80 to $2.20 per Watt to install, & conversion efficiencies have been stuck-by physics & engineering constraints-at around 36% for the last 30 years. Yet guess which energy source receives the biggest R&D tax concessions?
  49. Solving Global Warming - Not Easy, But Not Too Hard
    Marcus, good points about some of the benefits of solar PV and wind. Of course they also have their disadvantages - on a cloudy or calm day, 800 MW of solar PV and/or wind isn't 800 MW anymore. That problem is solved by diversifying the power grid, which is why you've got some wind wedges and some solar PV and some solar thermal and some natural gas, etc. etc. The other disadvantage with solar PV is that it's still expensive relative to these other sources. But the price is decreasing as technology advances and the economies of scale take effect.
  50. Berényi Péter at 10:07 AM on 10 November 2010
    CO2 effect is saturated
    Figure 1: Change in spectrum from 1970 to 1996 due to trace gases. 'Brightness temperature' indicates equivalent blackbody temperature (Harries 2001). Well, well, well. Let's see. FIGURE 1. Examples of IRIS and IMG observed and simulated spectra for a three-month average (April–June) over selected regions. a, Observed IRIS and IMG clear sky brightness temperature spectra for the central Pacific (10°N–10°S, 130°W–180°W). b, Top, observed difference spectrum taken from a; middle, simulated central Pacific difference spectrum, displaced by -5 K; bottom, observed difference spectrum for 'near-global' case (60°N–60°S), displaced by –10 K. c, Component of simulated spectrum due to trace-gas changes only. 'Brightness temperature' on the ordinate indicates equivalent blackbody brightness temperature. "Component of simulated spectrum due to trace-gas changes only" is not the same as "Change in spectrum [...] due to trace gases". If you have references, you are expected to omit misquotations. Observed (as opposed to simulated) near-global difference spectrum (Fig. 1. b, bottom) does not show an overall energy imbalance. There is simply more outgoing longwave radiation in the atmospheric window, compensating for somewhat less radiation elsewhere. It is consistent with a slightly decreasing average upper tropospheric IR optical depth at water vapor absorption bands (especially in the water vapor continuum). I would also like to know if measurements were performed in the 400 cm-1 - 1600 cm-1 (6.25 μm - 25 μm) range, why Harries at al. only show the 710 cm-1 - 1400 cm-1 (7.14 μm - 14.08 μm) range? The so called arctic window is below 625 cm-1 (above 16 μm). At these frequencies all absorption/emission is from water vapor, therefore changes in brightness temperature spectrum here should be rather informative.
    Moderator Response: Harries explained that the spectra below 700 were too noisy to include. See the "Response" in the green box of this comment on the post about the American Thinker article.

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