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All IPCC definitions taken from Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis. Working Group I Contribution to the Fourth Assessment Report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Annex I, Glossary, pp. 941-954. Cambridge University Press.

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Comments 108351 to 108400:

  1. There is no consensus
    That video is not only disgusting, it's unscientific, completely ignores what we know of effective risk communication. 10:10 needs some grownup supervision.
  2. Berényi Péter at 10:08 AM on 2 October 2010
    There is no consensus
    #1 roverdc at 17:32 PM on 27 September, 2007 Concensus only has meaning if there is no pressure to conform in either direction. No pressure, indeed.
  3. An underwater hockey stick
    Im speechless... this purported anomaly represents an utterly mind blowing amount o energy in the space o 50 years! This must be a local thing! It cant possibly be representative o the North Atlantic water temperature!
  4. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    Ned #108 Regarding statistical significance stuff, this is actually a limitation of the application of central limit theorem to the correlation coefficient. While one can do lots of very interesting things with correlations (with the help of multidimensional geometry, linear algebra, and yes, central limit theorem), by themselves they're a pretty blunt, insensitive instrument and not terribly informative.
  5. An underwater hockey stick
    Im going to point out the obvious... You are seeing a much larger anomaly in ocean temps... leading atmospheric temps, this would be consistent with shortwave warming... not long wave. Overlaying the graphs(Moberg vrs NAWT), also shows ocean temps leading atmospheric in the modern era... There needs to be more reconstructions to really say anything definitive, oceans being oceans, this could be a coincidental current shift... but the ocean anomalies should NOT be leading, or greater than atmospheric anomalies. What are the local atmospheric temperature anomalies at the location in question?
  6. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    @Ken Lambert #98 "If the Solar forcing curve were to start not at (0,0) but say (0.1W/sq.m, 0) - a slight positive forcing" As you appear to want to believe that there was/is more solar forcing than most believe, so that you can attribute some of the observed warming to something else than the inexorable rise in greenhouse gases, then consider that that extra solar forcing added to the expected forcing from increased CO2 plus feedbacks will likely make whatever global warming that's coming to us worse than expected. Do you feel lucky?
  7. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    @johnd: I can't count the number of onlin forums (which includes comment sections) I've participated in since I started back in the day of BBSes. This long experience has given me the ability to spot a troll a mile away. Now, you may want to engage this individual yourself and try to have a coherent discussion, but my *humble* suggestion to those who'd be tempted to keep re-explaining the same things to him (even though he's clearly not interested in "accumulating knowledge") is to just ignore him, or kindly point him to the appropriate argument in the list, but not waste time writing long rebuttals he's not even going to read. That's all. BTW, I haven't heard any of the serious AGW critics here denounce the weak scientific arguments repeatedly pushed by such commenters as NETDR, thingadonta and cruzn246. You have to realize that, ultimately, such crude attacks on the science hurt your side of the debate more than mine...
  8. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    archiesteel at 07:45 AM, whilst your warnings are obviously directed at those with limited capacity to assess such matters themselves, the object of sites such as this is to allow readers on both sides to both present and accumulate knowledge on the subjects being debated, and as such should be left to the participants and ultimately the moderators to decide on the relative value of any contribution without having to be told what value any may or may not be contributing.
  9. Does Climate Change Really Matter?
    Ned, I recognize that the difference between the last glacial maximum and now was 8C. Nonetheless, I do not understand it. The science is proven, but it does not mean that I understand the science. Do you have a Climate Science 101 answer or reference for why small changes in average temperature have such a large effect on the climate?
  10. Climate Change: Past, Present, and Future
    Our understanding of what drives the climate is so good we can say it's very likely we can't afford to wait another 30-40 years before we react to this threat.
  11. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    Folks, NETDR is a troll. It's obvious from the way he misrepresents facts and fails to stay on-topic, presenting a mish-mash of half-baked arguments that fall apart under the shallowest of scrutinies. His goal is to waste our time by restating the same arguments over and over again, hoping to create enough chaos on these threads to prevent any reasonable scientific discussion. There's only one way to deal with trolls: ignore them. Don't respond to their trolling, and they'll go away. Anyway, people genuinely seeking serious scientific information will be turned off by his political references, and there are moderators who can prevent him from going too much off-topic.
  12. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    NETDR:
    Ok if you want to say 3 ° C so be it but when the scientists want to scare the public they use the higher number.
    So, you're willing to believe 3 degrees because it's not as scary as 6?
  13. Does Climate Change Really Matter?
    Searching for a new rhetorical device, Doug and I simultaneously come up with the same idea: Doug: One of way of thinking of this, mfripp, is that if my house should burn down ... Me: ... my home being buried under 2000+ meters of ice. Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate To say that for destruction ice Is also great And would suffice. (Robert Frost) What's next ... muoncounter's house destroyed by a volcano?
  14. An underwater hockey stick
    Well.... considering the BIG jump in 1900... and the relative increase in radiative forcing then... This paper brings up quite a few BIG questions...
  15. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    You just gotta love the Daily Mail headline: "Royal Society issues new climate change guide that admits there are 'uncertainties' about the science" That's like saying, "Scientists admit to eating breakfast in the morning."
  16. IPCC Reports: Science or Spin?
    philc, I don't think you have it quite right. The quote in your first paragraph looks like it comes directly from WIKIPEDIA (if so, it's always a good idea to reference your sources, especially when you are highlighting it as a quote), so perhaps we should see what else it has. The next paragraph is : The treaty itself sets no mandatory limits on greenhouse gas emissions for individual countries and contains no enforcement mechanisms. In that sense, the treaty is considered legally non-binding. Instead, the treaty provides for updates (called "protocols") that would set mandatory emission limits. The principal update is the Kyoto Protocol, which has become much better known than the UNFCCC itself. And, a few paragraphs later : The UNFCCC is also the name of the United Nations Secretariat charged with supporting the operation of the Convention... The Secretariat, augmented through the parallel efforts of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), aims to gain consensus through meetings and the discussion of various strategies. How does that "presuppose the results" ? And, in fact, the IPCC was set up in 1989, three years BEFORE the UNFCCC convention was adopted. So, why was the IPCC set up ? Why not read about it : The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is the leading body for the assessment of climate change, established by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) to provide the world with a clear scientific view on the current state of climate change and its potential environmental and socio-economic consequences. Because of its scientific and intergovernmental nature, the IPCC embodies a unique opportunity to provide rigorous and balanced scientific information to decision makers. By endorsing the IPCC reports, governments acknowledge the authority of their scientific content. The work of the organization is therefore policy-relevant and yet policy-neutral, never policy-prescriptive. But you obviously don't believe all that, right ? Which "founding documents" were you suggesting we look up ?
  17. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    "This warming has... been largely concentrated... from around 1975 to around 2000" I have to say that I'm very disappointed that even the Royal Society can be fooled by one outlier year. Does no-one know how to do a moving average any more?
  18. Does Climate Change Really Matter?
    2-3 C sounds like a little temperature change ... but that's misleading, because a small temperature change averaged over the entire globe is actually a huge change in the climate. For comparison, global temperatures at the last glacial maximum were about 8 C lower. So that 2-3 C is about a quarter to a third of the change between my home being in a comfortable temperate forest and my home being buried under 2000+ meters of ice.
  19. Does Climate Change Really Matter?
    One of way of thinking of this, mfripp, is that if my house should burn down, I will not be able to comfort myself with the thought that my neighborhood did not noticeably warm up. Some of the problem is indeed with "wild weather"; presently there's an extra accumulation of something like 4000 petawatt hours/year of energy on Earth happening and unless it's really smoothly distributed the effects are expected to be noticeable in visibly dramatic and kinetic ways. That translates into things like this: For example, the "hundred year flood" was once something that you had better be aware of, but it was not very likely soon and you could get reasonably priced insurance. But the probability distribution function does not need to shift very far for the 100-year event to be occurring several times a century, along with a good chance of at least one 500-year event. -- NASA-GISS: 2010 — How Warm Was This Summer? Speaking of weather, Kevin Trenberth says: I find it systematically tends to get underplayed and it often gets underplayed by my fellow scientists. Because one of the opening statements, which I’m sure you’ve probably heard is “Well you can’t attribute a single event to climate change.” But there is a systematic influence on all of these weather events now-a-days because of the fact that there is this extra water vapor lurking around in the atmosphere than there used to be say 30 years ago. It’s about a 4% extra amount, it invigorates the storms, it provides plenty of moisture for these storms and it’s unfortunate that the public is not associating these with the fact that this is one manifestation of climate change. And the prospects are that these kinds of things will only get bigger and worse in the future. -- NCAR’s Trenberth on the link between global warming and extreme deluges The "vitriol" about convection is reflective of frustration with the idea that so much energy can be wished away.
  20. Climate Change: Past, Present, and Future
    philc writes: The bottom line takeaway is wait another 30-40 years and we will have a much better idea of what drives the climate. Actually, we've already got a pretty good understanding of what drives the climate.
  21. IPCC Reports: Science or Spin?
    The IPCC was founded by politicians who were trying to show that there was not a scientific consensus that AGW was a problem. The politicians thought that the scientists would not be able to reach a consensus and that nothing would have to be done. The reality is that QGW is so obvious that scientists quickly reached a consensus. We need to act to prevent future problms.
  22. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    RE: doug_bostrom [6] Posted: Lest anybody be confused by NETDR's rarefied treatment of ocean heat, here's a synopsis of the latest thinking on OHC measurements, "Robust warming of the global upper ocean" where the matter can further be discussed. ************ Lest anyone be confused by Doug’s study of ocean heat. The XBT which this study is based upon only goes 460 Meters deep[for most measurements] while the more accurate Argo buoys go 2 kilometers deep. The XBT’s are launched from ships and so are weighted toward warmer shipping lanes. There are 3000 Argo buoys which sample the whole ocean except under the ice packs. Which s more accurate ? The Argo buoys have found cooling since 2005. http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/ There were several people who objected to my using 6 ° C for a doubling of CO2 which was taken from Dr Hansen 2008. He had a short term value of 3 ° C also if that is more pleasing. We aren’t warming nearly that fast either. The earth s a long way from being on track for even 3 ° C of warming in 100 years. The article The decade 2000-2009 was, globally, around 0.15 °C warmer than the decade 1990-1999." This projected warming would be 1.5 °C in 100 years which is not enough to spend tens of trillions of dollars to avoid. Don’t get me started on models. I coded them professionally and am less than impressed with “hindcasting”. It is a good start but only a start.. They have to insert a huge plug to insert natural cooling to account of the warming which isn’t happening according to prediction
    Moderator Response: A more comprehensive discussion of OHC may be found here, "Robust warming of the global upper ocean."

    As a general note to anybody making comments here on Skeptical Science, if you find yourself writing an extended comment on a specific avenue of inquiry, be sure it's posted in a place conducive to coherent, nonduplicative discussion of the particular research topic you have in mind.

    Not to pick on NETBR in particular, but the above comment is an excellent example of producing an intractable salad of issues, each of which are deserving of separate discussion.

    As always, the "Search..." box at upper left is your friend when it comes to locating opportunities to continue conversations as well as avoid rehashing issues in a myriad of different locations.
  23. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    philc writes: We can't even get good solid measurements out of the current measuring network because measurements as little as 5-10km apart can be significantly different. That doesn't matter, because temperature anomalies are correlated over very large distances (hundreds of km). Nick Stokes showed that you can reconstruct the global temperature trend with as few as 60 stations.
  24. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    There is no point in trying to graft measured temps over the last 100 years to proxies collected over hundreds to thousands of years. The estimated proxy temperatures can't be calibrated with the measured "current" temperatures because none of the measuring points are co-located. None of the proxies are co-located either. We can't even get good solid measurements out of the current measuring network because measurements as little as 5-10km apart can be significantly different. We need much better current data.
  25. actually thoughtful at 05:17 AM on 2 October 2010
    An underwater hockey stick
    Yay! Thanks for this paper based post (I enjoy all of them, but do appreciate a diet rich in peer-reviewed science!)
  26. Climate Change: Past, Present, and Future
    Always worth remembering, while they may provide information on expectations, reconstructions of past climate do not presume to be explanations of what drives the climate. Philc, when you say no reconstructions of past temperature do not provide much usable information, what do you mean? Are you saying they provide no cues on likely boundaries? If your conclusion is that they show temperatures as generally having been constrained within a range of perhaps 0.6 degrees C, how is that not useful?
  27. Does breathing contribute to CO2 buildup in the atmosphere?
    johnd #44: "choosing an apple to make a point was perhaps not the best choice as it focuses on the fruit and not the tree." Last I checked, people do not eat trees.
  28. Climate Change: Past, Present, and Future
    Interesting graph. Doesn't look much like this one: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/pubs/mann2008/mann2008.html The most notable conclusion I can make from all the paleo reconstructions of temperature is that none of them provide much usable information. All of them show that changes of ~.5-.6 degC over periods of 10 years or so are to be expected. The bottom line takeaway is wait another 30-40 years and we will have a much better idea of what drives the climate.
  29. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    This article is basically good, but it takes too long to state its 'thesis' in the proem, and its lack of vigor in stating the final conclusion reminds the reader of wilting plants.
  30. Does Climate Change Really Matter?
    Sorry to break into the vitriol with a real question... But I do not understand. The implication of the main article is that the 2-3C temperature rise is not the main problem. As the article states, a small temperature change is not something to be bothered about. Instead, is the real issue with the increase in wild weather? Is the temperature rise simply a proxy for representing a bunch of other climatic events? I have to confess, I have never really understood why a small change in temperature could have such a big effect on civilizations. If, however, temperature was a proxy for storm energy, then this would be a different understanding. Thoughts?
  31. IPCC Reports: Science or Spin?
    "The United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC or FCCC) is an international environmental treaty produced at the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED), informally known as the Earth Summit, held in Rio de Janeiro from 3 to 14 June 1992. The objective of the treaty is to stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system." Since the IPCC was founded by the UNFCCC treaty, with the purpose of summarizing research into stabilizing "dangerous anthropogenic interference" with the climate Dr. Spencer's criticism is totally true. Scientific research does not assume a conclusion and then try to prove it. The IPCC reports are fundamentally UN-scientific simply because they presuppose the results. Look it up in the founding documents if you don't believe it. The IPCC is a political organization founded to promote the hypothesis that human emissions of C02 have caused dangerous changes to the climate. Case Closed!! It cannot produce and unbiased report simply by definition.
  32. ClimateWatcher at 04:24 AM on 2 October 2010
    IPCC Reports: Science or Spin?
    "Sea-level rise is accelerating faster than the IPCC predicted." Sea level rise does not appear to be accelerating at all: "Each Arctic summer, sea-ice is melting faster than average predictions in the last IPCC report." Of course there is a dynamic loss of sea ice which explains much of the decline: http://seaice.apl.washington.edu/IceAge&Extent/ See the movie: http://seaice.apl.washington.edu/IceAge&Extent/Rigor&Wallace2004_AgeOfIce1979to2007.mpg "The Arctic is experiencing a long-term loss of multi-year ice which is also accelerating." Sea ice seems to have a 'memory' at a period which may exceed the duration of the satellite record. But given the unusual warmth in the Arctic during the 1930s, it's possible that such a similar decline occurred then. When sea ice is reduced, more heat escapes from the Arctic water and this would explain the 1930s anomaly. The proximity of the Beaufort Gyre and the Arctic Throughflow set up a possible mechanism for this. When the gyre dominates, ice spins around and accumulates. When the through flow dominates, ice is lost to the Atlantic and declines.
  33. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    ClimateWatcher, you would be more credible if you gave the whole quote, thus : Progress since the TAR enables an assessment that climate sensitivity is likely to be in the range of 2 to 4.5°C with a best estimate of about 3°C, and is very unlikely to be less than 1.5°C. Values substantially higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded, but agreement of models with observations is not as good for those values. Which is not based on "those climate scientist [who] happen to be part of the IPCC", but a vast body of work given here : Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 8.6 Climate Sensitivity and Feedbacks Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 9.6 Observational Constraints on Climate Sensitivity Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 10.5 Quantifying the Range of Climate Change Projections (I have also posted this over on the Climate Sensitivity thread, which is where this should be)
  34. Climate sensitivity is low
    ClimateWatcher (on another thread), you would be more credible if you gave the whole quote, thus : Progress since the TAR enables an assessment that climate sensitivity is likely to be in the range of 2 to 4.5°C with a best estimate of about 3°C, and is very unlikely to be less than 1.5°C. Values substantially higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded, but agreement of models with observations is not as good for those values. Which is not based on "those climate scientist [who] happen to be part of the IPCC", but a vast body of work given here : Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 8.6 Climate Sensitivity and Feedbacks Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 9.6 Observational Constraints on Climate Sensitivity Working Group I: The Physical Science Basis 10.5 Quantifying the Range of Climate Change Projections
  35. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    Sorry for continuing the off-topic discussion. I won't comment on it here any further.
  36. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    @CW: 1.8 is not under low estimates, it is exactly on the low estimate. You've been trying to push that canard in a different thread, but it's still as false here as it was there. "Unless those climate scientist happen to be part of the IPCC, in which case they do. "likely to be in the range 2 to 4.5°C" "Values substantially higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded"" No, they don't. These two statements are correct. You're simply trying to muddy the waters here. As far the broad-spectrum ORL showing an increase, that is also an indication that AGW is happening. In fact, it's well explained on this very web site. You should learn a bit more about the science before playing the role of contrarian, your errors are too easy to spot.
  37. Newcomers, Start Here
    CW, you're projecting on that critical thinking comment. You know the onset of warming is much more rapid now than for the HCO. You know that adaptation is more difficult in rapidly changing conditions. You know that human environmental restructuring was, compared to today, insignificant during the HCO. You don't know what the sea ice extent was for the HCO. You don't know whether or not summer sea ice disappeared for long periods of time during the HCO. Yet you still persist in shrugging off current conditions as "been there, done that, no major bio-change." Science doesn't agree -- 15-37% of species committed, by 2050, to extinction if present trends continue. The polar bear is probably already committed, even with significant mitigation efforts. Who cares? After all, for most people, a polar bear is a fantastic creature most will never actually see in its natural habitat. It might as well be something from Tolkien's imagination. yet a flippant attitude toward this top predator (well, "top" doesn't mean anything, since bacteria etc. will eat the dead body of the bear) suggests a flippant attitude toward dying and rapidly expanding species that will (and are) having a direct impact on every day human life. This warming is different--more akin to the rapid extinctions that punctuate the fossil record. It's not the pathetic, slow deaths of the woolly mammoth and sabretooth tiger. It's the discordant rapid loss and rapid expansion of habitat.
  38. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    ClimateWatcher, I refer you to How do we know global warming is still happening, particularly the discussion of Earth's global energy budget and top of the atmosphere imbalance of 0.9 W m-2.
  39. ClimateWatcher at 03:47 AM on 2 October 2010
    Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    dana1981 15. "Climate scientists almost never refer to 2xCO2 climate sensitivity as higher than 3°C" Unless those climate scientist happen to be part of the IPCC, in which case they do. "likely to be in the range 2 to 4.5°C" "Values substantially higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_sensitivity Of course there is 'uncertainty' because there is uncertainty in the IPCC range and the observations are all below the low end of that range.
    Moderator Response: Unless you'd prefer your comments on this thread regarding specific features of climate science be deleted, you'll want to take each specific scientific problem you feel exists to the appropriate thread, as has already been suggested.
  40. Newcomers, Start Here
    I think polar bears are like 'hockey-sticks' to a certain type of so-called skeptic - if they can convince themselves that polar bears are going to be alright (because they were alright in the past, right ?), then that would be another final (final) nail in the coffin of AGW. Perhaps they should have an emblem of a polar pear playing hockey on lovely thick ice, with a big cheesy smile on its face. And a knowing wink - visible only to those who know the 'real' truth of AGW.
  41. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    In addition to this back-and-forth about climate forcings, earlier in this thread Ken got very interested in the fact that, taking each decade on its own, neither the 1990s nor the 2000s had a statistically significant warming trend. Nor did the 1980s, nor the 1970s. That's right -- if you only look at ten-year periods, none of the past four decades has had statistically significant warming when taken on its own. But over the entire four-decade period, the warming has been very highly significant. The lack of a statistically significant warming trend at decadal time scales does not mean "global warming has stopped", any more than the lack of a statistically significant warming trend at weekly time scales means that "the seasonal cycle has stopped". I've done some simulations, using an underlying quadratic warming trend that matches the past four decades and rises smoothly to a very extreme warming of +6C (above 1970 values) in 2100. I de-trended the last decade's temperature record, and then added it to each future decade, thus giving each decade a similar kind of "noise" superimposed on top of an ever-increasing trend. The first decade where we would see a statistically significant decadal trend is the 2020s. In other words, it's not until 2030 -- nearly halfway through the period of 1970-2100 -- that we would have experienced a decade where there actually was a statistically significant trend within the decade itself. If you use the 1990s as a model for "noise", the 10-year warming trend first becomes significant in the 2010-2019 decade. So we could potentially see this in the 2010s, or it might not be until the 2020s. By the 2030s, pretty much any previous decade's "noise" would show a statistically significant 10-year trend. Thus, even with a strong underlying warming trend, you have to go through the fifth or sixth decade before you are able to detect a statistically significant decadal trend. I think this very nicely disposes of Ken's claims that the non-statistical significance of warming in individual decades is evidence that temperatures have "flattened".
  42. We're heading into an ice age
    Tom Loeber at 02:10 AM, Tom I tend to agree with you. Virtually nothing is discussed here about noctilucent clouds, I think because of the fascination with what occurs at the TOA which seems to be considered as being the tropopause. I think TOA is a misnomer anyway as it is actually more so the top of the weather with water vapour and CO2 extending above it as well as all the other gases that form the atmosphere.
  43. We're heading into an ice age
    Tom Loeber wrote : "Research noctilucent clouds. Me thinks they are purposely ignored due to their suggesting carbon dioxide build up leads to quick cooling of the globe." To state that they are being "purposely ignored" and finish up with a link to a NASA video about them, is a bit confusing. There is also a WIKIPEDIA page all about them, which shows lots of studies into them. Hardly "purposely ignored", surely ? As for your assertions about 'cold records' : Bolivia had their coldest temperatures in nearly 50 years and that, combined with low water levels due to drought (plus, possibly, disease), led to the massive loss of fish. Nature Parts of New Zealand have experienced cold and snow (perhaps the worst since the 70s), unfortunately at the same time as lambing is progressing - However, it is important to remember that many parts of the country have experienced benign weather at the same time, leaving many people wondering what all the fuss was about. NZ Met Service SMH Four gorillas died back in May in Rwanda : New Times If you were trying to prove that AGW is leading to more and more extreme events (albeit the cold ones not being as significant records as the hot or wet ones), then well done. Or were you trying to show something else...perhaps about a coming ice-age ?
  44. Does breathing contribute to CO2 buildup in the atmosphere?
    CBDunkerson at 23:27 PM, choosing an apple to make a point was perhaps not the best choice as it focuses on the fruit and not the tree. The structure of the tree enables CO2 to be sequestered into the tree itself and fixed below ground through the root system. Depending on the state of the soil to begin with, this and the buildup of organic matter in the soil itself can result in a permanent increase of carbon storage within the soil. If instead we focus on the trees, then we realise that the effects of global deforestation not only contribute in the short term a substantial proportion of the annual increase in atmospheric CO2 levels, but are impacting on the long term capacity to permanently lock up carbon in the soil on a large scale.
  45. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    chriscanaris #10 said: "I suspect the AGW debate follows the time-worn Hegelian path of thesis, antithesis, & synthesis" Hegel was talking about philosophical ideas, not scientific ones. Besides Hegel was a lousy scientist - in his youth he published a book stating on philosophical grounds that there could not be more than seven planets. Scientific ideas usually survive on an "all or nothing" basis. There was no synthesis between Newton's and Einstein's theories. I suspect, though, you may be partially right. The denialists are pivoting from science (where they are losing badly) to politics, where they may even be winning. Look at the way the Tea Party has embraced denialism. "Alarmism", "radicalism" and "bringing politics into science" are becoming the main accusations. The Tea Party in power will either have to betray their constituents (which is possibly) or work out some sort of modus vivendi with science. A scientists vs politicians clash is possible, which will make the "science wars" of George Bush's terms look like a kiddies party. Some Tea Partiers are already threatening Congressional Investigations into climate science. So, if there is going to be a synthesis, it will have to be on the politics front. And the best hope is that Tes Partiers do not follow their rhetoric but are more reasonable than they seem. The other hope is that they lose. Given the demeanour of political denialism and the state of play in US politics, I am not optimistic. I know the above seems overly focused on American politics, but that is where the frontline is at, right now.
  46. Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    chriscanaris: "The science is never settled." That doesn't matter. You still USE the science that you know. You don't hide it under the carpet pretending it never existed or sit around waiting for something better to come along. People didn't say, 'ha Newton, there are a lot of uncertainties because Mercury isn't explained, lets wait until someone else comes up with something better'. What we do, is take what we have got and act on it.
  47. Newcomers, Start Here
    What amazes me are the passionate feelings contrarians bring to discussions of polar bear populations, how emotion seems to supersede rationality, leading to strange arguments simultaneously mixing anachronistic situations as well as contemporary phenomena to produce a sort of average result saying "the bears are ok." Apparently there's some sort of desperation to suggest that loss of habitat for polar bears is a neutral influence on their population, which seems unlikely.
  48. ClimateWatcher at 02:54 AM on 2 October 2010
    Uncertain Times at the Royal Society?
    NETDR 9. "Ok if you want to say 3 ° C.." Maybe not. The thirty year trends from MSU, SST, and Land/Ocean indices are all at or below 1.7° C per century. Given that most of the IPCC scenarios indicate a deceleration of temperature trend, there's some 'splain'n to do. as to why the observations are not only below the mid range (3° C) but even below the best estimate for the low end scenario (1.8° C).
    Moderator Response: Follow up your concerns about sensitivity here, consternation about model reliability here.
  49. New temperature reconstruction vindicates ...
    CBDunkerson makes a good point. Ken's conceptual model of the Earth system would make the climate amazingly sensitive to even a tiny sustained departure from equilibrium. If I understand correctly, he's holding outgoing longwave radiation constant, rather than letting it adjust to changes in atmospheric temperature. An Earth that functioned like that would probably be uninhabitable.
  50. We're heading into an ice age
    Despite local variations, this past summer/winter (depending on where you are) was exceptionally warm in terms of the global scale, not exceptionally cold: 2010 — How Warm Was This Summer? The global scale is of course the significant scale of "Global Warming." Here's a nice roundup of recent work in noctilucent clouds as they relate to climate change, including a really nice photographic example of what they look like: Increase in Shining Clouds Highlights Climate ‘Weirding’. Not a peer-reviewed item but includes links to actual research.

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