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michael sweet at 03:09 AM on 21 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks:
When I balance the equation of nitrate ions to nitrogen gas I get:
10e- + 12H+ 2NO3- --> N2 + 6H2O
Since bacteris convert nitrate to organic nitrogen, and eventually nitrogen gas, this means that for every nitric acid molecule that dissolves in the ocean it removes 5 atoms of H+. That would cause the pH to go up and not down. Sulfate ion also is reduces and consumes H+ wqhen it dissolves in the ocean.
Please provide peer reviewed evidence that nitrate and sulfate dissolving in the ocean will cause the pH to drop and not rise as I have demonstrated.
Since you have not provided any evidence to support your wild claims I do not need to provide any additional evidence to support my claims.
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One Planet Only Forever at 01:49 AM on 21 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
nigelj,
I acknowledge that CCS on coal burning results in less CO2 per unit of useable electricity than natural gas fired generators, even better than combined cycle gas turbine generation.
However, that same coal burning facility with CCS would be even better if it is converted to gas burning with CCS. The gas burning with CCS would also reduce many other nasty side-effects of coal burning, while still creating a few nasty side-effects beyond making new excess CO2.
So technically I am pointing out that burning coal to generate electricity is not an acceptable option, no matter how much more it costs to convert existing coal burners to more responsibly generate electricity in the short-term (prior to 2050 when all of the more fortunate people need to have terminated their attempts to 'benefit more from the burning of fossil fuel').
A final point. CCS on fossil fuel burning does not count towards the identified need to 'remove carbon from the atmosphere'. The net result of fossil fuel burning with CCS is still a net increase of carbon in the atmosphere.
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FreeThinker1984 at 01:11 AM on 21 November 2017Climate's changed before
"First, to infer that humans can't be behind today's climate change because climate changed before humans is bad reasoning (a non-sequitur)."
Nobody suggested this, not even in your quote. We're just saying that the whole concept of climate change being a problem is ridiculous. Because the climate always changes, by definition. Too fast climate change might be a problem. Humans breath out CO2 and breath in Oxygen, of course we affect our environment. Nobody disputes that. Please stop with the straw-men arguments. We're just saying that there's no reason to assume change is necessarily bad. We have to do actual science instead of fear mongering.
"Second, to imply we have nothing to fear from today's climate change is not borne out by the lessons from rapid climate changes in Earth's past."
When archeologists say 'rapid', they mean thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. When the collection of species in an ecosystem changes it sounds really bad. Suggesting that all the animals normally just live their happy lives, but with such a change they all suddenly die. This is not how reality works. Animals struggle to live their most of their life. An environmental change that causes the species to change just means some species become a little less successful at that every year and some a little more. So an individual animal probably won't notice the difference.
Moderator Response:[PS] "We're just saying that there's no reason to assume change is necessarily bad. We have to do actual science instead of fear mongering." Yes, lets indeed to the science. You can find that science summarized nicely in WG2. You will also find the scientific answers to of many of the myths about rapid change here under the section "Its not bad". Your concluding statement is sloganeering, because you are making assertions without providing supporting evidence in the face of established science.
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nigelj at 15:50 PM on 20 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
Ok guys you win. Perhaps the case for coal fired carbon storage and capture in Saskatchewan is weak. My point was really that if Trump is going to be doing coal, and it looks inevitable, he should be true to his word about clean coal, and use carbon storage and capture, retrofit ideally. A point OPOF seems to acknowledge anyway. It may also be still worth experimenting with the technology, its just a little too early to say its a dead end.
The Saskatchewan example is just that, an example that the technolgy does work if properly done. That's all I was saying.
However coal fired power is never my preferred option, and I suppose theres the risk that CCS might encourage it.
On a related topic, the economist.com has a good article as below titled "what they dont tell you about climate change"
It nicely summarises need to suck carbon dioxide out of atmosphere to meet Paris accord, either literally with technology (such stuff exists at a price), carbon capture and storage options, and development of forestry sinks and enhanced soil sinks. It discusses the various possibilities and challenges.
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One Planet Only Forever at 14:22 PM on 20 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
nigelj,
The suggestion that Saskatchewan does not have adequate renewable power sources is highly suspicious.
The total population of Saskatchewan is 1.16 million. And a large part of the energy consumed in Saskatchewan is for oil and gas production, an activity that has to be terminated so that makes its energy demand irrelevant (those energy demands are real but they need to disappear in the sustainable future).
The indicated percentages of solar may also be skewed by including the almost unpopulated Northern half of the province which indeed has lower levels of sunlight, especially in the depths of winter. But Saskatchewan also includes many of Canada's sunniest locations as confirmed by the 'Current Results' website summary of Sunniest Places in Canada. The southern area of Saskatchewan where the vast majority of the population lives is quite sunny.
And Southern Saskatchewan is reasonably windy, though perhaps not at the speeds required to optimize wind generation. But then optimum is only the ideal. Power generation is power generation, even if it isn't optimal.
Of course the final criticism of the claim that Saskatchewan lacks non-reneweable energy capability is that electricity storage systems are being ignored when that claim is made. Storage may be more expensive than getting away with burning fossil fuels. But sustainable renewable energy supply systems should not be cost-compared to damaging unsustainable energy systems.
I do however support adding CCS to recently built fossil fuel burning power plants. Proper CCS locked away (not assisting in the extraction of new fossil fuels for burning), can be better than a new gas burning power station, even after considering the power lost to collect and store the CO2. But converting the coal burnet to be a gas burner with CCS would be better. And even if a gas burner with CCS needs to be shut-in before 2050 the lower return on investment is irrelevant since the 'costs' are only a small part of the massive debt owed to the future generations by what the current generation and their predecessors got away with doing.
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nigelj at 11:20 AM on 20 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks @19
Yes I get partial pressures are the factor, but quantity must be important. Take the extreme hypothetical case of an atmosphere with just one molecule of SO2 in atmosphere and trillion molecules or more of CO2. Which will cause more acidity in oceans? I would have thought CO2.
"Now I have the reliable link to value of the ratio [H2CO3]/[CO2] = 1.2*10-3"
This is not comparison of CO2 against the other gases fully calculated comparing real world quantities of gases and partial pressures and all the processes you mention. Neither does it consider all issues people have raised. The question is which is main cause of acidity in oceans, and this requires full pages of calculations and all data in way that is properly set out and verifiable and can be followed in systematic logical fashion, not quotes of bits and pieces from chemistry textbooks presented in fragmented fashion through blog posts, giving me a headache.
No disrespect meant, you take trouble to post details, and have more chemistry expertise than me easily, but I am very, very perceptive and know from experiences I can spot nonsense reliably.
"Please note that in the last paragraph of post 11 and in post 17 you write N2O instead of NO2. Hope, It is a misprint."
Yeah a missprint. Ha ha!
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aleks at 10:19 AM on 20 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
nigelj @11, 17
About comparison of quantities CO2, NO2, SO2 in atmosphere. Please, let me to recall once more that water acidity from CO2 depends not on its amount in atmosphere, but on concentration of dissolved CO2. This concentration is directly proportional to CO2 partial pressure in the atmosphere (Henry law) and inversely proportional to water temperature (global warming decreases CO2 solubility). We know about increase of CO2 in atmosphere after industrial revolution, and we know that emission of SO2 and NO2 also increased significantly at the same time.
Your idea about comparison of amounts of different gases and their "acidity strengh" is interesting, but unrealizable, because amount of CO2 is relatively stable, while SO2 and NO2 are carried away from atmosphere by water. That's why is possible to compare effect of different gases on acidity by estimation of theie relative emission at fuel combustion (see post 6). Please note that SO2 and NO2 themselves have no "acidity strength": it differs for H2SO3 and H2SO4, for HNO2 and HNO3.
About your proposal (post 17) to demonstrate in quantities "what I mean by small and large amounts". I did such calculation in comment 9. Now I have the reliable link to value of the ratio [H2CO3]/[CO2] = 1.2*10-3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid
Accounting for this value reduces amount of hydrogen ions fron CO2 found before about 30 times. So, let's think about relative contribution of different gases to water acidity.
Please note that in the last paragraph of post 11 and in post 17 you write N2O instead of NO2. Hope, It is a misprint.
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michael sweet at 10:02 AM on 20 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
Nigelj,
Your link goes to a report from a think tank. I did not find any information about this think tank with Google, but there are no scientists on the board.
A news release from a think tank reporting on a coal industry project that says there is limited renewable energy in Canada is not a very strong source. The Solutions Project, run by scientists, claims that there is plenty of renewable energy in Canada.
You have to choose how reliable your sources are. In the USA, think tanks are frequently run by fossil fuel interests. I am not familiar with Australian think tanks.
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bozzza at 18:12 PM on 19 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
There's nothing wrong with Gore making it political: everything is politics and he is a politician... what do the rest of us do for a living that makes us so much better?
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bozzza at 18:01 PM on 19 November 2017Analysis: Global CO2 emissions set to rise 2% in 2017 after three-year ‘plateau’
The electric semi is here but we need it to be powered by solar or it means nothing!
The world is turning very nicely at the moment and I suspect Trump will have no choice but to regulate fossil fuels to win his second term which of course he can do because he is the worlds biggest backflipper as the media can't call him out on it!
2019 is when the Tesla electric semi comes out so I'm looking forward to solar plants coming in to power their mega-Chargers!
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braintic at 17:12 PM on 19 November 2017Inuit Perspectives on Recent Climate Change
Carbon500
"Finally, you state that the globe is warming? Is it?
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs_v3/Fig.C.gif"It looks like it is warming to me. In your graph I see warming of about 0.4 degrees since 1998.
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nigelj at 16:37 PM on 19 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Mal Adapted @30, yes all fair comments. The whole thing is horribly politicised in America, especially by denialists but also large part of the public, but Gore shouldnt make it worse, and was a bit unwise to include material in his movie about the election etc. This may have alienated a lot of republicans.
But his book and I presume the movie was very good scientifically and he is passionate, and I think it probably had positive impact in rest of the world outside America, who wouldnt really care so much about his politics.
We have talked about the market economics tragedy of the commons issue elswehere. I find myself coming back to it again and again, that people are just going to have to accept it. This may require dragging Republicans kicking and screaming somehow!
I like Americans and strong rule of law etc, but their constitution puts huge emphasis on individual freedom, which I think is used as a convenient excuse sometimes to say no to anything they dont like. The basic principle is sound, as a protection against excessive coercive power, but it can be taken to absurd extremes that I doubt the writers really meant.
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nigelj at 16:06 PM on 19 November 2017New research, November 6-12, 2017
Driving By, good summation of the problem. CO2 is plant food is disarming and frustrating.
"oh yeah, poor starving plants. You win Hippie-Derp of the Decade."
The trouble is this sort of sarcastic retort runs the risk of turning the climate issue into a sort of comedy show. You also raise the risk of being accused by the sceptic of trivialising the issue. It could cause debate to escalate into something nasty with certain audiences.
However I suppose a witty response can ease tension and bring people together.
But you are right long technical explanations can turn people off. Best overall response might be "yes CO2 is plant food, and like any food there can be problems" Which is basically the truth so can be disarming. It can be expanded on if required, into fuller technical explanation if that is asked for and appropriate in the context.
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Mal Adapted at 12:41 PM on 19 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
I have not seen the "Incovenient Truth" movie. From what you say it does politicise the issue, which is unfortunate. However the material on Gores personal background may have been inserted to add human interest aspect.
AGW is a political issue, whatever other kind of issue it is. Al Gore has mastered the basics of climate science well enough, but he's a politician first and foremost, from highly personal motives. Why else would he talk so much about AGW?
The peer community of climate science specialists has reached a lopsided consensus. IOW, the consensus case is settled science. The current POTUS, nevertheless, has publicly said AGW a hoax. You'd think he'd recognize that three may keep a secret if two are dead, yet he's accusing generations of climate scientists of enlisting, with mysterious though implausibly unified purpose, in a 200-year-long conspiracy to deceive the public. How polarizing is that (especially if you're a climate scientist)?
'Market oriented' economists agree that AGW is a drama of the commons, requiring collective intervention in the 'free' market to avert tragedy for ever more millions of people. That much is settled economics. Any collective decision will create relative winners and losers, but the sooner the US economy is decarbonized, the lower the net aggregate cost will be. Perhaps coincidentally, the people with the most to lose are fossil fuel billionaires. In the event, the offical position of the dominant US political party, whose leaders are apparently unclear on the whole 'commons' concept, is that decarbonizing our economy will cost too much. How politicizing is that?
A sufficient plurality of US voters must be assembled to enact something like Carbon Fee and Dividend with Border Adjustment Tax. Yet a regrettably large number of Americans reject responsibility for the marginal climate-change costs of their private comfort and convenience. They're happy to socialize as much of ther private costs as they can get away with. How politicized is that?
AGW has always been politicized. If it wasn't, the US economy would be well on its way to carbon-neutrality by now, 30 years after Jim Hansen's Congressional testimony, and Al Gore would be talking about something else.
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DrivingBy at 12:29 PM on 19 November 2017New research, November 6-12, 2017
@Thiristaer
There's no use in attempting to engage such people with a science based argument, unless you are attempting to reach an audience on the fence who is also mislead by such trolling. Those talking points are catchy, advertising type phrases, not scientific content. A response in scientific terms is bound to be much longer, and the non-scientific reader's eyes will glaze over by the end of the first sentence. Lots of things of plant food, and more is not neccessarily better.
"saying CO2 is plant food equivalent to saying O2 is people “food"
This is better - catchy, and points out some of the idiocy of the talking point. Depending on the audience, one could also answer "dead bodies are even better plant food" or "oh yeah, poor starving plants. You win Hippie-Derp of the Decade." I'm not very good at that sort of thing, perhaps others can think of a better retort.
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nigelj at 07:51 AM on 19 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
Michael Sweet @2
I agree carbon capture and storage is expensive, and has problems. But If you read the second linked article, Saskatchewan has limited wind and solar potential, and carbon capture and storage does have a case because of this. Its the local and regional differences thing. Of course it needs to be done properly, with all carbon stored, not on sold to oil companies for fracking, which looks like half the C02 will end up back in the atmosphere to me.
As for America under Trump, carbon capture and storage might be better than nothing, given he seems determined to promote coal. At least this could be as a temporary measure and technical experiment, until new leadership sees obvious cost and environmental advantages of promoting renewable energy.
I think maybe Trump is just suspicious of new energy solutions, getting older and resistant to change. Look at age of his inner circle as well.
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Philippe Chantreau at 07:10 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Comment #16 should read nitrogen is a difficult nutrient to obtain, not NO2.
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michael sweet at 06:23 AM on 19 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
Nigelj:
Your article is from 2014. From your first reference:
"Captured CO2 from the Boundary Dam project will be pumped underground and sold to the Cenovus oil company for use in priming nearby oil fields, or buried in geological formations."
"He noted the Saskatchewan plant relies on a local source of coal – and on selling on the CO2 to the oil industry – to keep it in the black. Coal also faces intense competition from historically low prices for natural gas, which makes it prohibitively expensive to build new coal plants with CCS."
Using the CO2 to obtain more fossil fuel is not a path to carbon free energy. About half of the CO2 captured is released when the oil is obtained.
Carbon capture is not economic in competition with renewable energy.
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nigelj at 06:01 AM on 19 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
So Donald Trump talks about clean coal. The only real way to achieve this is to bury CO2 emissions underground, as is done with an experimental plant in Canada. Couple of articles:
Knowing Trump he would subsidise coal companies with tax payer money. But if Trump does go down carbon capture and storage road, then that is a solution. But how many of us believe he would carry through with his claims, given his general record to date on so many things being not carried through? He could change that record now with implementing carbon capture and storage.
Republicans need to remember its not all about "tax reform" their big obsession.They have to start holding Trump to account for other things as well. Sorry about political comment, but climate change has become very political.
However carbon capture and storage is not ideal solution, seems expensive approach to me. Just stop burning coal, it's easier and renewable energy is now very cost competitive.
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nigelj at 05:41 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks "and small amounts of SO2 and NO2 produce in water solution more acid than large amount of CO2"
Yes in general, and interesting, but pretty non specific.
Can you please define in quantities what you mean by small and large ammounts, and how this compares to actual real world ratio in oceans please. Otherwise you aren't demonstrating anything.
Remember we are talking very small ammounts of SO2 and N20 in atmosphere and gigantic ammounts of CO2 in relative comparison, refer to link I posted. The difference is huge, many orders of magnitude, so even if SO2 and N20 etc are more acidic I doubt this is enough to counter volumes of CO2.
Like others say published science shows C02 is causing ocean acidity and so duty is on you to prove it wrong in specific and precise detail, taking all things into account.
Dont get me wrong. SO2 and nitrogen oxides must cause at least some ocean acidity. Ships might release some of these oxides. But I just cant see how it would be the main factor.
And the release of at least some S02 doesnt change the fact CO2 is contributing to ocean acidity.
We should be reducing all these emissions S02, C02 etc as they all cause problems for natural environment. Isn't that the real point?
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:57 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
I think that NO2 in the ocean is unlikely to contribute significantly to acidification. NO2 is a difficult nutrient to obtain, and is likely to be consumed immediately. Pelagi Bacter Ubique, possibly the most abundant species of all, favors base pairs A-T because they require less nitrogen. The daily struggle for nitrogen defines the entire life of an immense number of marine organisms.
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michael sweet at 04:53 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks:
Everyone who keeps an aquarium is familiar with the nitrogen cycle in water which converts ammonia into nitrogen gas via nitrate ion: NH3-->NO2- --> NO3- --> N2. Sulfate SO4- also has a natural cycle. You can easily Google this information. It is not my job to look up commmon knowledge for you.
Harvards "superbug" is unable to convert all the CO2 in the atmosphere to energy as demonstrated by the Keeling curve's yearly increase. This is an interesting press release but has no bearing on our conversation.
You have made the assertion that NO2 and SO2 gas contribute to ocean acidification. You have been refered to posts containing extensive literature citations that show the scientific consensus is that CO2 is causes ocean acidification.
Since you are making the claim that scienitsts are incorrect, it is your responsibility to provide data to support your claims. Seat of the pants arguments unsupported by data or expertise do not count on this site. It is not my responsibility to summarize the OA is not OK series for you here because you have not bothered to read it yet.
I have a masters degree in Chemistry and have taught college level chemistry for the past ten years. I am unimpressed by your claims of novel calculations. Keep in mind that the chemists who did the experiments described in the OA is not OK series know much more about the acid/base buffer systems in the ocean than either you or I. They know that the Ka of sulfuric acid is greater than the Ka of carbonic acid.
Your naive calculation of relative masses of emitted gasses from an unscrubbed smokestack does not convince anyone familiar with the chemistry. Today I drove past a coal burning power plant. There is a dry wall plant built next door that uses the calcium sulfate from the scrubber to make their dry wall. How much did that sulfer contribute to ocean acidification compared to the CO2 they vented into the atmosphere? While I drove my car emitted CO2 but no NO2 or SO2. So much for your calculation.
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MA Rodger at 02:34 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
aleks @13.
While you are correct when you say "small amounts of SO2 and NO2 produce in water solution more acid than large amout(s) of CO2," is this relevant to the proverbial price of cheese if there are increasingly "large amount(s) of CO2" within today's oceans that are significantly increasing ocean acidity, while there is not a sign of even the beginings of the "amounts of SO2 and NO2" you talk of. Maybe I have missed something, but you do appear to be talking drivel. Oceans are suffering acidification (more +H) and the cause is indisputably due to rising atmospheric levels of CO2.
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Bob Loblaw at 02:03 AM on 19 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Lachlan @21:
You are much more charitable that I with respect to Tom13's presentation of data. He started in comment 1 by saying " The current rate of sea level rise is only 3mm per year."
NIgelj immediately responded with "No in parts of Florida its currently approx. 8.4mm year." and provided a link to a site that includes a graph of how sea level has varied since 1950 (and how rates of rise have varied).
Tom13 countered (@12) with the link to the NOAA data, and made the following statement:
"The NOAA data should be a better gauge of whether a jump to 26.mm per year is even remotely likely. keep in mind that in order to reach 7 feet, the rate of sea level increase has to be 26mm per year for 82 years straight.
Clearly, Tom is arguing from a standpoint where the 2.39 mm/yr is the current rate at Miami, making the year 2100 as 82 years from now.
Tom13 is just plain wrong about the current rates. I see two possibilities:
- Tom13 did not know what period the 2.39mm/yr applied to, but chose to assume that it was current rate and presented it as such. (This would apply whether Tom13 spent no time or a lot of time trying to find out the data period used.)
- Tom13 did know the time period for the 2.39mm/yr, but chose to misrepresent it as current in order to make an argument.
I am charitable enough to accept that #1 is quite likely. It is for this reason that I followed Tom13's link to look at the source of data and try to determine more about the quoted rate. It took a bit of time, but I was able to find it. And when I found it, I discovered the information, I was able to determine that Tom13's quoted rate is a very poor choice for examining current Miami rates of sea level rise. (I will admit that until now I did not check Tom's quoted rate for Daytona Beach. Tom's 2.32mm/yr is correct, but it applies to the period 1925 to 1983. It is no more useful than the MIami data.)
You further state "It doesn't look to me like he was deliberately cherry-picking — just misled by an unclear site, and being genuinely skeptical as this site encourages."
I strongly disagree.
- A genuine skeptic looks at the two different rates (NOAA,as quoted by Tom13, and the graph linked to by nigel) and asks "why are they different?"
- A genuine skeptic then tries to determine the reason for the difference.
- In this case, the reason is simple: different time periods. And anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge of climate issues should know that time periods are very important in comparing data.
- Note that the graph nigel linked to starts in 1950.
- Note that from 1950 to 1980, the rate of sea level rise was about 2mm/yr.
- Note that this is entirely consitent with the NOAA value.
- Note that there is really no difference to explain.
- ...and if a genuine skeptic cannot determine a reason for the difference, she will not present the data as if it is conclusive proof of a counterpoint. A genuine skeptic will include the caveat that there is uncertainty in the results, and perhaps ask if anyone can explain the difference before making statements such as "Can someone provide a credible estimate..." and immediately doubling down with the statement "...with the emphasis on credible. "
- The graph nigel linked to already shows credible evidence that rates are increasing since the time period of the NOAA data.
Tom13's behaviour does not look like "being genuinely skeptical" to me. And yes, I blame Tom13 for Tom13's behaviour.
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aleks at 01:29 AM on 19 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Michael sweet, thanks for interesting note about bacteria eating SO2 and NO2 (give a link, please). It's unclear yet, do bacteria eat these compounds in the air or in water solution? I can give the link about bacteria eating CO2: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2016/05/29/harvard-scientist-engineers-a-superbug-that-inhales-co2-produces-energy/#70462d137944
Let me recall once more that CO2 in atmosphere is not H+ in solution, and small amounts of SO2 and NO2 produce in water solution more acid than large amount of CO2. Both these statements are based on real facts and general principles of chemistry. I'd like to see in this discussion concrete objections to specific allegations. About your link to OA is not OK. I have just commented these articles in post 6, and I would be glad to receive from you objections to my comments.
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John Hartz at 00:47 AM on 19 November 2017Sea level rise is exaggerated
[JH] Recommended supplemental reading:
Does NASA Data Show That Global Warming Isn’t Causing a Sea Level Rise? by Alex Kasprak, Snopes, Aug 1, 2017
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John Hartz at 00:42 AM on 19 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
[JH] Recommended supplemental reading:
Does NASA Data Show That Global Warming Isn’t Causing a Sea Level Rise? by Alex Kasprak, Snopes, Aug 1, 2017
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nigelj at 13:13 PM on 18 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Plus of course what Michael Sweet says. All of this has to be factored into calculation as well.
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Eclectic at 13:12 PM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Michael Sweet @26 , thanks for that info on the Gulf Stream & Florida.
I was innocently [=ignorantly] supposing that the Gulf Stream effect on the local sea level was a matter of a few centimetres in total, rather than a metre.
An article in RealClimate 4th January 2017 discussed the shotgun spread of model projections for future Gulf Stream developments. Clearly a difficult area to get some sort of handle on. Maybe 100 — 300 years until Stream shutdown (if that's its eventual fate). Interesting times, at a global level.
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nigelj at 13:02 PM on 18 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks @9, I get that sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides reacts easily with water to produce strong acidity. But that doesnt prove anything by itself because you have to look at total quantities of the various gases surely.
The issue to me is quantities of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides are so incredibly small compared to CO2,that their overall affect on ocean acidity is likely to be totally insignificant. They have increased over time but no different in rate to CO2. Its total quantities that stand out.
Clearly the climate science community think CO2 is the prime suspect, and they do not just guess this stuff, and would have have calculated it.
If you think differently, you need to show in simple terms total quantities of the various gases CO2, S02, etc in atmosphere, multiplied by acidity strength of each and taking account of how much of each gas turns to acid, and at what rate and so on. Such a thing would require considerable work.
Im not a chemist, but to repeat its obvious the differences in quantities of CO2 against SO2 and N20 are so huge, so many orders of magnitude, that its hard for me to see SO2 and N2O having significant effect on oceans, unless its in some specific, limited location next to a coal fired power station or something.
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michael sweet at 11:57 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Eclectic:
The Gulf Stream is currently not as strong as it was 20 years ago. An article on Climate Central quotes Dr. Tal Ezer:
"“[The Gulf Stream] keeps coastal sea level [on the US East Coast] a meter or a meter and a half lower than the rest of the ocean,"
The amount of rise varies over the US East Coast. It is not clear to me how much of that rise has been seen to date, although it is a positive value. Scientists are not sure if the current slowing of the Gulf Stream is permanent or just decadal variation. Models predict less slowing than has been observed.
About land subsidence in Miami Beach, this poster states:
"Preliminary InSAR results detected localized subsidence, up to -3 mm/yr, mainly in reclaimed land located along the western side of Miami Beach.
• Although the detected subsidence velocities are quite low, their effect on the flooding hazard is significant, because houses originally built on higher ground have subsided since the city was built, about 80 years ago, by 16-24 cm down to flooding hazard zones."Add in 25 cm of sea level rise and you start to see more flooding.
In addition, melt from the Antarctic causes more than average sea level rise in North America because of gravity effects. The effect of Greenland melt in North America is close to average. Currently this effect is small but measurable.
Ubrew12:
It is my understanding that 400 ppm of CO2 is expected to cause 20-25 feet of sea level rise. Most scientists currently think that it would take 500 or more years to rise that much. If all the ice melted it would be about 75 feet.
You are correct, there is less ice in the world today than 20,000 years ago so the possible total sea level rise is less now than it was in the past. As scientists understand the great ice sheets in Greenland and the Antarctic better the estimations of how long it takes to melt have changed a lot (generally melting faster).
Also, since temperature rise is proportional to log[CO2], as concentration increases the effect on temperature rise is less for each new 100 ppm.
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Digby Scorgie at 11:29 AM on 18 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Yes, fellows, there are indications that some are changing their attitude. (And I do subscribe to the Listener — and regularly bombard them with "e-mails to the editor".) The question is whether there is enough of a change to render the neanderthals of business and politics impotent. Time will tell.
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Eclectic at 10:05 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Michael, should we expect Florida's sea level rise to continue at well above world average?
There must be a definite upper limit to the effect of Gulf Stream slowing. And land subsidence rate would continue slowly and steadily. Would not the general SLR increase from Global Warming be the big factor in coming decades and centuries?
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michael sweet at 09:24 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
All the NOAA sea level data on Tom13's link (broken for me today) are least squares fits to all the data that exists for that location. If you look carefully some of the locations are short term and others are longer. Key West has a complete 100 year record, most of the others are shorter and sometimes end before 2017.
Since NOAA fits a linear trend to an increasing curve they underestimate all current rates. The actual rate is higher than NOAA states. Nijelj's data is recent and is the actual current rate. Search Taminos blog for details of NOAA sea level graphs.
Tom13 is not familiar with the NOAA site and incorrectly thinks that they measure current sea level rise instead of the average over the enitre data set. On denier sites they use the NOAA fits to claim sea level is not rising at the rate it is actually increasing.
The state of Florida will be in a lot of trouble soon if the rate continues at 9 mm/yr.
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nigelj at 09:00 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Lachlan @21. The NOAA data on sea level rise in Florida is hard to follow.
This is a peer reviewed study specifically on Miami beach Florida: It was hyperlinked in the original article I posted if you looked carefully.
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0964569116300278
Ocean & Coastal Management Volume 126, June 2016, Pages 1-8
Ocean & Coastal Management. Increasing flooding hazard in coastal communities due to rising sea level: Case study of Miami Beach, FloridaAuthor links open overlay panelShimonWdowinskiaRonaldBrayaBen P.KirtmanaZhaohuaWubHighlights:
Flooding frequency in Miami Beach increased significantly since 2006, mostly due to high tide events.
The average rate of sea level rise in Southeast Florida increased from 3 ± 2 mm/yr prior to 2006 to 9 ± 4 mm/yr after 2006.
Increasing sea level in the Miami area correlates with weakening of the entire Gulf Stream system (decrease in kinetic energy).
Engineering solutions to SLR should rely on regional sea level rise rate projections and not only on the commonly used global SLR projections.
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John Hartz at 07:22 AM on 18 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #45
ranger001: Check out:
COP23 video: Does Donald Trump make limiting global warming to 1.5C impossible? by Leo Hickman & Jocelyn Timperley, Carbon Brief, Nov 15, 2017
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michael sweet at 07:10 AM on 18 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Aleks,
Both NO2 and SO2 are consumed by bacteria in the environment so they do not accumulate like CO2 does. In the 1950's and 60's (in the Western countries), large amounts of NO2 and SO2 caused acid rain. This primarily affected the land because of the immense size of the ocean. The West has reduced their acid pollution although China and India are currently adding a lot of those chemicals.
Since CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere and stays essentially forever it has a much greater affect on the pH of the ocean. If geoengineering by use of sulfate aerosols were attempted that would affect ocean pH.
Read the series OA is not OK on SkS to get more information.
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nigelj at 06:10 AM on 18 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie
I think you have the picture right on relationship of the keeling curve to emissions. It's complicated, and I have been asking myself similar questions.
Regarding change in attitude. You are from New Zealand, did you read that Listener article on rise of ethical businsesses? Link below:
www.magzter.com/preview/13970/250663#page/1
This is business that has multiple goals, profit plus environment, ethics, employment practices etc.
Attitudes to business ethics and environmental concerns are also slowly changing, from what I have read. Young people are wanting better ethics in business and environmental standards, and it appears more than just teenage idealism. But I think it will be a slow process, especially once mortgage has to be paid! But it absolutely has to change because the alternatives are unthinkable.
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ranger001 at 06:04 AM on 18 November 20172017 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #45
Can someone point me to any articles that says what is likely to happen if the world continues pretty much the same with the US not changing its stance appreciably? Something like ice caps will melt in year 20xx, etc.
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Thiristaer at 06:01 AM on 18 November 2017New research, November 6-12, 2017
Love the first article about nitrogen. Perfect rebuttal to the “CO2 is plant food” arguement.
After all, isn’t saying CO2 is plant food equivalent to saying O2 is people “food??”
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nigelj at 05:48 AM on 18 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Lachlan @19
I have not seen the "Incovenient Truth" movie. From what you say it does politicise the issue, which is unfortunate. However the material on Gores personal background may have been inserted to add human interest aspect.
I just can't recall the book politicising the issue. I dont think it mentioned Gores background, and it was a relatively short book and large parts were illustrations.
However few writers are going to be politically totally neutral people. Most people have some political leaning. I just wish people would just look at what Gores says, and forget that he is a Democrat. I'm happy to listen to Conservatives views on climate change, and I might disagree, but not because they are "conservatives".
You said you wonder if the movie did more harm than good. I haven't seen any study on this. However I suggest it probably did more good than harm at outside America, because wouldn't really care about Gores statements on his political and personal background.
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nigelj at 05:28 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
Drivingby @2
I agree China is empire building, but no more or less so than America, Russia etc. China is concerned to secure food security, and will essentially colonise other peoples economies to do this. This is where countries need to be on guard.
But China is towards benign end of spectrum on empire building, and hostility to china is counter productive. Like other person says China deserve some respect, and trade problems and other economic problems like predatory colonising practices should be dealt with through rule of law which has mechanisms to deal with this sort of thing. In other words be critical of what China does , but dont demonise them.
"If the population is displaced from either their home or their work, they will reject any environmental concerns beyond garbage hauling and drinking water"
You would think so, but its higher educated and higher income people that are more sceptical of climate change and resistant to carbon taxes and so on, from article I read about America. Much to my surprise.
The article didn't give reasons, but perhaps poor people have a certain fatalism, or more acceptance of what science says without much question. Of course if people are truly destitute, with no job then it might be different, and survival might over ride any environmental concerns, but who knows? We might be surprised.
Poor people tend to give a larger proportion of their income to charity than rich. The world is a complex peculiar place, which is why its important to look at political issues through lens of science and evidence, and avoid assumptions and urban myths.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:51 AM on 18 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
Digby Scorgie@19,
The change of attitude I mentioned is nothing new. It has been an established understanding of Global Leadership for decades. It was formally stated as a part of Kyoto. And is a stated part of the Paris Agreement. It is the parts that trouble-makers accuse of being "Globilist Wealth Grabs" or "Globalist Wealth Transfers".
Global better understanding about how to sustainably improve the future for all of humanity has continued to strengthen in spite of regional short-term variations down from the mean (like global average surface temperature, it is the long term trend that matters).
So it is only a matter of time before the understanding becomes powerful enough to over-rule the pursuers of Private Interests who try to get away with things that are contrary to that understanding, not if it ever will become that powerful.
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aleks at 02:02 AM on 18 November 2017What do Jellyfish teach us about climate change?
Nigelj@8, please note that acidity is determined by the concentration of hydrogen ions only, not by molecules of substances. Properties of CO2, NO2, and SO2 that produce H+ in water solutions are quite different. a) CO2 has a relatively small solubility depending on partial pressure, temperature, and water salinity. At 25oC solubility in g/kg water is 1.5 for CO2, ~90 for SO2 . NO2 reacts with water forming HNO2 and HNO3 .
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.htmlN b)The main forms of CO 2 are CO2 (aq) and H2CO3 , at that the first one prevails: amount of carbonic acid is about 1000 times less than total amount of dissolved CO2 (link in the post 6, p.20). SO2 and NO2 completely convert into corresponding acids, and sulfite and nitrite ions oxidize to sulfate and nitrate, so eventually we get strong acids H2SO4 and HNO3..
I'd like to make comparative calculation. Let's pretend that above mentioned 1.5 g CO2 fell into the water only as a result of burning coal and found corresponding amounts of sulfur and nitrogen oxides (it's acceptable because crude oil also contains sulfur and nitrogen). The average content of C, N, and S in coal can be estimated from the data in the following link (pp. 117-118) as C 85, N 1,5, S 1 (mass.%).
https://www.ems.psu.edu/~radovic/Chapter7.pdf
Assuming that the mole ratio of substances in the combustion products corresponds to the ratio C: N : S in the coal, it could be found that together 34 mmole CO2 (from 1.5g), 0.52 mmole NO2 and 0.15 mmole SO2 are formed. Because SO2 and NO2 convert completely to strong acids, total H+ amount would be 0.67 mmole (for H2SO4 only the first dissociation step is taken into account). Amount of H+ from carbonic acid could be found from its concentration (34 mmole/kg) and dissociation constant 4.3* 10-7. Even neglecting above mentioned note that H2CO3 concentration is many times less than total [CO2(aq)] , we find the value of H+ from CO 2 of 0.12 mmol. So, even very simplified calculation shows that SO2 and NO2 produce much more acidity than CO2 .
Please note that your link is about composition of dry air while SO2 and NO2 almost completely absorbed by air moisture. -
Delton11557 at 01:36 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
For Driving By: One point about China you overlook is that one of the most important things the Chinese people are currently demanding is cleaner skies. China now has many citizens wealthy enough to travel and the thing that catches their eye in the U.S., for example, is blue skies. They know they are breathing dirty air back home and they don't like it. Say what one will about the Chinese political system, when they decide to do something, they can muster the entire country to get behind the project. We should speak of the Chinese with respect and vital partners in the effort to reduce our carbon emissions.
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DrivingBy at 00:53 AM on 18 November 2017California’s new law aims to tackle imported emissions
Let's just keep borrowing from China and shipping industry, technology and expertise to China and India. At some point, the only country we'll be able to buy bulk steel from will be China, because they'll be the only ones able/willing to loan US municipalities drowning in debt more funds. When asked about environmental issues, they'll just laugh (silently), add 50% to the next project, and use those funds to buy the local politicians.
Crazy? China and Russia are on track to own Venezuela. Should VZ leaders attempt to flip off those two powers, they'll find that their term in office mysteriously ends in a show trial. Those two powers may sometimes grasp more than they can hold, but without the US as a counterweight one is unlikely to escape their 'friendship'. China has been playing empire for several thousands years and are itching to get back in the game.
Attention to the environment is only possible with a sound economy. If the population is displaced from either their home or their work, they will reject any environmental concerns beyond garbage hauling and drinking water, and in some places they don't bother much about garbage.
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Digby Scorgie at 16:47 PM on 17 November 2017“Toasted, roasted and grilled” or already over the hump?
OPOF @18
Yes, but you are in effect asking for a change in attitude that, regrettably, is unlikely to occur. But time will tell.
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Lachlan at 15:30 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
Bob Loblaw @16: Well done finding tht data.
You talk of "where the credibility gap lies", but I don't think you can blame Tom13. The NOAA is a reputable source, and the data sets for most of the Florida points finish at 2016 (also spanning 4-10 decades), and give rates of change in the same ball-park as the old Miami data. It doesn't look to me like he was deliberately cherry-picking — just misled by an unclear site, and being genuinely skeptical as this site encourages :)
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Lachlan at 14:29 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
I forgot to add that my comment #19 doesn't mean that I think the Republicans aren't also politicising climate change. They're doing it deliberately and unscrupulously, whereas I think Gore did it carelessly at worst.
Also, I'm not saying that the harm done by politicisng the issue outweighs the good he did by raising awareness. I don't know enough to have even an opinion on that.
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Lachlan at 14:22 PM on 17 November 2017An Inconvenient Sequel – the science, history, and politics of climate change
The movie "An Inconvenient Truth" did certainly politicise the issue — not just because Al Gore was a former politician. It discussed the details of how he lost the presidential election. Even though I think he should have won the election, those interludes made me cringe. Those who think he deserved to lose would have been outraged by them and distracted from the key message.
If the election had been fought on the issue of climate change, then the political comments would have been justified, although possibly unwise. However, public awareness of climate change was low until An Inconvenient Truth itself was released, and so I don't see how it could have been a major election issue (though I wasn't there).
The movie also focused more on Al Gore himself than was necessary. I remember there were scenes discussing the fact that his parents were tobacco farmers. So what? He may have been making a subtle point about the need to change industries, or similarities between the tobacco industry and the fossil fuel industry, but it isn't central to the issue and creates an impression of self-aggrandisement.
I haven't read the book, and so perhaps these criticisms don't apply to it — but applying to the movie is enough to justify the claims that he politicised the issue.
$0.02
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