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Comments 20851 to 20900:

20851. BILLHURLEY13951 at 05:43 AM on 8 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       Great topic. Americans opinions on CC are broad but shallow. IE since it's a distant problem, God or technology (or both) - will come thru for us so it's not an immediate concern. But it is a 'concern' and we need not forget it.

       That's my experience listening to most serious voters here in Texas. The majority don't dispute the problem. Just the solution (the ones they hear anyway) turn them off.

       But there is a overwhelming problem. The biggest mismatch seems to be a lack of understanding for biodiversity, the "web of life" relationships and basic science stuff (when an individual link stops working- the chain weakens).

20852. nigelj at 05:19 AM on 8 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       Stephen Baines @2, you make the point regarding the narrow majority believing we are altering the climate, but the larger majority wanting renewable energy. You appear to say the numbers might suggest people may accept the science, but be relutant to openly  admit we are altering the climate because they don't want to be seen as identifying with the liberal elite, but find it easier to say they support renewable energy. It's a good point.

       They may also be unwilling to accept that humanity has potentially done something wrong, or have religious convictions that humans could not possibly alter Gods creation (I say this respectfully), but are still able to support renewable energy. It's a peculiar and contradictory mental state, but entirely possible, because humans are knownfor being able to hold contradictory views in their head,without being bothered by the tension of this. I read a psychological article on this somewhere.

       However we also have the situation where only a narrow majority believe we are altering the climate, but a bigger majority want carbon emissions cut. This is harder to explain, and suggests they are confused, or half sceptical,  and are kind of "betting a dollar both ways".

20853. PluviAL at 03:00 AM on 8 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       Right on, M. Sweet, this is what jumps out from the maps at me too. Regions strongly affected can be won over with message targeted at their cultural concerns.

       Once on board, the Senate will move to rapid action, because it is strongly controlled by the rural parts of the nation: 2 Senator represent 38 million Californians, whereas an equal number of 2 senators represent the scant population of Wyoming.

       The presidency will go the same way too because of the electoral college system distortion.

20854. fpjohn at 01:27 AM on 8 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       It strikes me that those more inclined to acceptance of CC and regulation of CO2 emissions are geographically distributed in regions increasingly subject to drought and coastal or regional flooding. Perhaps direct experience is the relative demographic parameter?

        

       yours

       Frank

20855. michael sweet at 20:50 PM on 7 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       I have seen reports that white, non-organic farmers are aware that the weather is changing.  For political reasons they do not talk about climate change, they say "unusual weather we have been having lately".  SInce it is for political reasons that they do not argue for changes, more data is unlikely to change their minds.  It is not clear to me why they would notice weather changing, which is critical to their business success, but not take action to preserve the weather we have.

       A new message has to be developed to reach this important group of people who already know that the weather has changed.  Since you have experience with these groups of people, can you suggest a message that will counter the fossil fule story?  Perhaps the next severe drought in the Midwest will convince them to take action.

20856. Tom Curtis at 20:35 PM on 7 March 2017
       Global warming theory isn't falsifiable
       

       stephen baines @80, thankyou.  I must reject the accolade, however, in that I have not kept up with the last 20 years of philosopy of science, so it is not really a review.  Philosophy Now has this summary of the more recent developments in philosophy of science:

       "The first of these questions is the one with which the likes of Popper and Kuhn wrestled in the past (see previous page), but the debates have moved on. As David Papineau, of King’s College London, remarks, “Nobody works with Popper’s assumptions any more.” These days, the debate is between instrumentalists (not of the musical variety) and realists. Instrumentalists argue that scientific theories do not tell us what the world is really like but they do allow us to make predictions about the world. Scientific theories are instruments for making predictions about the world. Their opponents, who are called realists, believe that scientific theories in fact describe the world and that the ability of a theory to make accurate predictions is an indication that it is successfully describing the world.

       Bas van Fraassen takes the position that what scientists are trying to do is to describe the way the world really is, not merely to make mathematically accurate predictions. However, he agrees with the instrumentalists that one can never know the truth of such claims and can only judge theories on how good they are at making predictions. He calls this position ‘constructive empiricism’."

        

20857. stephen baines14492 at 14:48 PM on 7 March 2017
       Global warming theory isn't falsifiable
       

       That's a great succinct review Tom!

       Applying the strict Popperian criteria of falsifiability in a blanket sense to complex topics like climate change is a common trick of all science skeptics. It's also common trick used by those challenging evolution, who claim that every uncertainty or gap concerning the mechanisms which give rise to new species, adaptation or novel traits should be taken as disproof of decades of research supporting central role of evolution in biology.  

       The other trick is to claim that consensus formed through years of testing and rejecting alternative hypotheses results in an unfalsifiable hypothesis, as if the previous testing never occurred. It's an effective attack (on purely rhetorical grounds) when targeting those unfamiliar with the history of disciplines in question. It plays well in the atmosphere of cultural division that we now see. 

20858. wili at 14:47 PM on 7 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       Interesting in the first map where (outside of the NE) you find rural counties with relatively high percentages understanding climate science: predominantly Black counties in the deep South; predominantly Latino communities in, for example, Texas; predominantly Native American counties in say Arizona and South Dakota; centers of organic farming such as SE Wisconsin and thereabouts. So...it's white, non-organic farmers and their communities we have to work on, it seems. Any ideas?

20859. stephen baines14492 at 14:32 PM on 7 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       I have a slightly different take.  I'm not sure people are that skeptical of scientists - trust is at 71% afterall, which is darn high.  But what they think scientists believe is different from what scientists actually believe, and not by a small amount. While 53 % thought climate change was human caused, a marginally smaller fraction (49%) think scientists agree with that proposition.  People have an imaginary scientist in mind when they trust them!

       Three possible explanations non exclusive explanations.

       1. We and the press have done a terrible job at emphasizing the degree of consensus about the issue.  The simplistic equal time approach of most journalism is a factor.  Also, obviously, the intense counter PR by fossil fuel companies.

       2. The fact that "climate change" has become a code word in the culture wars pitting so called "coastal elites" against small town "common folk." (As I supposedly come from both, I hate those terms!). That is part of a larger PR campaign, it's true, but one that amplifies pre-existing divisions in US society - and maybe across the Western World.  But it may explain why people are fine with approaches that address anthropogenic climate change without having to admit to it.

       3. People like to believe their position is right and claim science supports it to buttress their case. 

       The degree to which each hypothesis is correct may suggest different approaches to addressing the problem.

20860. Tom Curtis at 08:46 AM on 7 March 2017
       Global warming theory isn't falsifiable
       

       Synthetic Organic @77, it is impossible that falsifiability be "the very definition of science" given that as a criterion, it was not invented till the 1930s in Austria by Karl Popper.  A great deal of what is still considered some of the best science peceded that invention, including the discovery of relativity (special and general) and of quantum mechanics.  That science was carried out by people who had never heard of falsifiability, let alone imagined that "it was the very definition" of the activity they devoted their lives to.

       The key point here is that Popper was just one philosopher of science, who proposed what he considered to be a non-falsifiable methodology of science.  That is, by his own words, his theory of the method of science was not scientific.

       More importantly, his proposed methodology was not agreed to by all, or even most, philosophers of science, and was shown to be methodologically inadequate, and false as a description of the actual methodology of science by his student Imre Lakatos.   That was also shown by Thomas Kuhn, and arguably (although his thesis is far too strong) by Paul Feyerabend.

       There is a lot of confusion on this point, both because many scientists are indifferent philosophers of science (although a rare few are very astute), and because Naive Falsificationism (which Popper also rejected) is often seized upon by pseudoscientists as a criteria to (incorrectly) reject genuine science, and also by disciplines of disputable scientific merit (economics, psychology) in attempts to show that they really are scientific.

20861. Leto at 08:17 AM on 7 March 2017
       Global warming theory isn't falsifiable
       

       Synthetic Organic, your post sounds very reasonable, and prompted me to go back and read the thread. In the broad context of the whole thread, there was ample evidence that PanicBusiness had a foolish notion of what science was, how it should proceed, and whether AGW should count as science. The suggestion that he had not got past introductory science classes was, perhaps, ad hominem, but if he did get past those classes he clearly failed to develop a mature understanding of the nature of science.

       Among his comments from 2014 was this: "I personally find it very likely that in the coming five years there will be no significant warming or there will even be significant cooling. If that happens I want the CAGW community to not come up with additional excuses, and hand-waving like it was totally expected."

       In hindsight, he looks especially foolish given the string of record global temperature records that have occurred since he made his prediction. (It's comically ironic, really, that his own worldview was so rapidly falsified.)

       Besides, he was a sock puppet, so all of his posts were tainted with dishonesty. Those who engaged with him probably picked up on that dishonesty, recognised him as a troll, and reacted accordingly.

       I agree it would have been better if the ad hominem elements had been left out. On the other hand, I think the SkS regulars are remarkably patient with folks like PanicBusness. It is not surprising that an ad hominem flavour crept into the thread, given that the regular SkS commentors were dealing with a dishonest fool pedalling a tired denialist meme.

20862. nigelj at 06:54 AM on 7 March 2017
       Americans are confused on climate, but support cutting carbon pollution
       

       So this is the general picture in summary: A narrow majority of Americans think we are altering the climate, and not that many are concerned about the future, yet a large majority want action on climate change ( a great thing in my opinion).

       It's intriguing and contradictory, but there are possible explanations. Firstly  It suggests whatever some people think about causes of climate change, they see value in renewable energy for a variety of other reasons.

       Secondly it suggests some people are sceptical about the science, but want emissions reduced "just in case" the science is right. So people are sort of half sceptical, and very confused or uncertain in America (and probably some other countries) and this is hardly surprising, given an irresponsible, self interested campaign to spread doubt about the science, and generally politicise the climate issue.

20863. SyntheticOrganic at 05:46 AM on 7 March 2017
       Global warming theory isn't falsifiable
       

       Tom Dayton said: "You are incorrect that falsifiability is "the very definition of science." That is something you would know if you had gotten past introductory science classes in college. (It is sad that such fundamentals of science are inadequately taught at the introductory course level."

       I resent your comment. First of all, it is an ad hominem (and hence should have been deleted), because it clearly implies that PanicBusiness never got past an introductor science class n college. Also, it implies that PanicBusiness was never taught the fundamentals of science.

       Your argument is also fallacious because it asserts that PanicBusiness' statement is wrong without explaining why. Rather, you simply assert that his statement is false, then go on to conclude that he hadn't gotten past introductory science in college. Whether PanicBusiness even has a high school diploma or not is irrelevant. What is relevant are his reasons for claiming that falsifiability is "the very definition of science."

       I assure you that I got well past introductory science course, so I must say that I am offended by your implication because by extension I believe you are also suggesting that I never got past introductory science classes in university or that I do not understand the fundamentals of science. I believe that your ad hominem extends to me because I basically agree that falsifiability is an excellent criteria for differentiating between science and non-science.

       The wordpress article you linked to does not really explain why you are so disdainful of PanicBusiness' idea that falsifiability is "the very definition of science." I disagree that it is "the very definition of science" but your response is just a dismissive ad hominem that doesn't explain or clarify.

       I am also a little disappointed by the "Response" (in green) found within PanicBusiness' comment. I think the idea of falsifiability being crucial for differentiating between science and non-science is well enough know that a source should not be required and it would have been more appropriate to clarify or explain that Karl Popper wasn't suggesting that falsifiability is "the very definition of science itself."
       
       I am disappointed that Tom's post wasn't deleted because I think it is clearly an ad hominem, but I suspect that it was allowed to stand because PanicBusiness seems to be arguing that the theory of anthropomorphic global warming (AGW) is not scientific.  This appears to me to be a bias in the application of the rules.
       
       I think PanicBusiness is wrong to say that the AGW theory is unfalsifiable because it clearly makes predictions which are falsifiable.
       
       In addition, alternative explanations for global warming often make predictions which are simply false, so the AGW theory stands as the best explanation.
       
       The AGW theory of global warming is falsifiable, hence it meets that very crucial criteria of a scientific hypothesis or theory.  The AGW theory is also the best explanation for global warming.
       
       
       

       Moderator Response:

       [PS] Moderation complaints are always offtopic. Moderating is an onerous task for which we dont always get it right but a lengthy post complaining about comments made more than 2 years ago does not contribute much to the discussion. Your main points are fine.

20864. John Hartz at 05:23 AM on 6 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Suggested supplemental reading:

       UBS Analyst Gets Future Investment Costs For Tesla Supercharger Network Super Wrong by Loren McDonald, Clean Technica, Mar 5, 2017

20865. michael sweet at 21:23 PM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       In my post above it should say "generation that covers the peak load during the day will only have to generate 50% at night".

       Shifting charging times of electric cars and other flexible energy use would significantly lower usage on windless lights beyond current usage.  Baseload plants currently pay users to use excess electricity at night.  Renewable energy plants would compensate users differently to adjust total power loads.

20866. michael sweet at 20:57 PM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Chriskoz,

       We need to consider the entire future grid.  Storage of electricity in cars will not be the only method of storing electricity.  If the only action that people take is to stop charging their car when electricity supply is low, that will help support the grid a lot.  Many people with a Bolt (240 miles per charge) who only use 40 miles a day will be able to easily go over several days without charging their car.  I do not fill up my car with gas until it gets low, do you imagine that everyone will require daily charging for electric cars?  Like the airconditioner mentioned above, with a small incentive people will delay charging until they need the fill up.  Transportation uses approximately 29% of total US power.  It would be possible to delay a large fraction of that use for a few days until a new weather system arived to spin the wind generators. 

       More electricity is used during the day than at night.  There is no reason that we need to generate  as much electricity at night as during the day.Generation that covers the peak demand during the day will only have to generate 25% at night to cover needs.  It is never windless over the entire USA, especially those areas that ae naturally windy.

       Other adjustments will be made to cover windless nights.  Currently hydro power is primarily used to cover peak power from 11:00 am to 7:00 pm.  there is nothing stopping hydro from running fom 7:00 pm until the wind picks up.  Since hydro currently generates about 5% of total power, it could generate almost all of electricity needed during most of your windless night.  No new hydro needs to be built, we only need to change the time of day the turbines are run.  It is also possible to cheaply add turbines to current dams to increase the peak power they can generate for the rare windless night.  Hydro would then be run at minimum flow rates for several windy nights to allow the reservoir to refill.

       I took a rafting trip down the Colorado river many years ago.  There is a strong tide on the river as each days peak generation surge of water goes by.

       Currently existing gas peaker plants can supplement hydro while renewable energy backup plants are built.   It is currently not economic to build out a lot of renewable storage because you make more money just selling the electricity on the open market.  Once wind and solar have displaced baseload power it will be more economic to build out other methods of storage.

       Many other methods are available to store electricity for windless nights.  Focusing on a single, new, limited  method of storing energy, as several posters have done on this thread will always result in finding that the method fails.  No-one suggests using a single method of generating power on widless nights.  

       Jacbson and Budischak both use zero batteries in their plans to power the world with renewable energy.  Budischak finds batteries too expensive to build.  This OP suggests a way to add significant battery power to the grid for free. The batteries are built for another purpose entirely and excess capacity is used to support the grid.  That can only reduce the cost of a renewable grid as proposed by researchers like Jacobson who have conservatively left out htis option.  

       I have also seen it proposed to use old batteries from cars, which have 75-80% of their storage left, as backup for the grid.  Since the batteries have already been used their cost would be low.

       Think through these proposals.  Cars alone cannot support the grid.  That does not mean that the grid cannot be supported, it means that cars will only provide a fraction of the needed support.  Since it would be free to use car batteries as described that would lower the cost of any renewable grid.  Just shifting charging time lowers cost significantly.

20867. nigelj at 10:09 AM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Chriskoz, you have delivered some much needed scepticism of the logical kind. My immediate reaction was the whole use of car batteries to power the grid would be too complicated to make work.

       Regarding whether people can be relied on to plug their cars in. You could probably determine a level at which you have high reliability (at a comparable level to the conventional grid)  but it might deliver low participation, and so not much electricity.

       But being sceptical of your and my own scepticism, maybe there could be incentives to encourage participation, and a contractual agreement, and Trump won't be there forever. He is an anomaly (please I hope so, there can't be endless complete idiots).

       The ideal solution is a better battery. While I'm not a technology dreamer that thinks anything is possible, it seems odd that we can't devise some cheap form of battery of high capacity. Perhaps there are such things, but the oil companies have bought up all the patents.

       Or perhaps conventional batteries could close much of the gap in supply. For very extreme conditions maybe we have to rely on fossil fuels like gas, that can be turned on rapidly, and sequester this carbon in the ground or something. But again, this creates a technically complex system, and would have to get through all the political complexity as well. We could be stuck with coal like you say, but that's so depressing.

20868. chriskoz at 08:39 AM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Glenn Tamblyn@10,

       It's worth noting that your Phase 2 was already resolved for more than 60 years - diesel electric railway locomotives - the most efficient self-contained ground transportation technology today.

       Why Phase 3 (I understand you mean EV carying its own electric charge) did not happen in rail transport yet? Answer is in my post above: it's next to impossible to recreate the miracle of energy density and convenience of diesel fuel. Of course we have pure electric locomotives (they came, not surprisingly, even earlier than diesel electrics. But they cannot be self contained: they must consume external energy via an overhead wire or a third rail.

20869. chriskoz at 08:14 AM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Tthereaer two issues ignored in this OP.

       1. Amount of power transfer between grid and EV batteries needed to balance the grid. To achieve zero emissions, substantial part of the total power output of the economy (in US it's a staggering verage 10kW/person) must be supplied by car betteries overnight when the sun is not shining and in the event the wind is not blowing. That drawdown at night must be ballanced by twice the production during the day (20kW/person) even ignoring seasonal/weather fluctuations. If taken into account, those fluctuations (e.g. extreme heat or winter snow when days are dark/short) multiply the demand on the grid several folds. How much solar pannels installations do we need to supply that energy - at least an average power of 20kW/person? How big the transmissions lines need to be to supply that energy from car batteries to hungry energy customers, e.g. alluminum smelters? Then comes the question of energy security: what happens if majority of population forgets to "re-plug-in" their cars in the evning, or decides not to do it because of some massive hysteria (e.g. inspired by an irresponsible presidential tweet), or simply in the name of american freedom to drive their car wherever and however they want as Henry Ford thought them? The result: total grid collapse. I think from the energy security standpoint alone, the idea of substantial grid backing by EV batteries is just pure utopia.

       2.Energy density of oil/petrol and associated convenience of its transport and almost instantanous re-energising at the bowser cannot be replaced by the existing EV technology. The miracle of that energy density compressed into oil (and to coal) by 100Myear long geo-processes is difficult to reproduce in a timescale of days (e.g. by solar panels) needless to say a few minutes by a customer at the bowser. At the moment, the only imaginable solution would be to lift the battery with a crane and replace it with another one. Say, it's about 400kWh of energy (equivalent of 8litres of petrol/2gallons of gasoline for a very, very efficient car). If a servo station performs about 100 such operations per hour (average traffic on petrol stations I witness arround my neighbourhood) then each of them must have the rechyarging power supply of 400kWx100=4,000kW. That's a signifficant infrastructure. Until it is not built, we are stuck with proverbial EV "runing on coal".

20870. Rob Honeycutt at 04:19 AM on 5 March 2017
       Climate Bet for Charity, 2017 update
       

       dwr... I'd make a $5 side bet that KW KT (Kiwi Thinker) has to change the scale on his Y-axis before the bet concludes.

20871. David Kirtley at 01:54 AM on 5 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Jdeutsch @16: The Union of Concerned Scientists had a report about the life-cycle costs, etc of EVs: Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave.

20872. MA Rodger at 23:12 PM on 4 March 2017
       Climate Bet for Charity, 2017 update
       

       My own version of the progress of this bet (here - usually two clicks to 'download your attachment') provides yet a third representation of the bet. It's main benefit, apart from being far more colourful and thus more cheerful, is that it plots the contribution from each month within the decade and shows how much they each assist or not (red or blue) each side in the bet.

       The present state of play is shown by the 'pyramid' trace which sets the average required from the remaining months if the outcome were to be a draw. Thus, the 'pyramid' trace being below the 2001-10 average shows the temperature-record-to-date is favoring a warmer 2011-20. And any monthly temperature above the 'pyramid' trace is improving that position. You will note that there has not been a month improving the status of a cooler 2011-20 since April 2015, almost 2 years ago.

       We can expect the 'pyramid' trace, bar a big volcano going bang in the coming years, to continue to drop and at an increasingly rapid rate as the period available for reversing the 'hot' lead shrinks to zero. This of course assumes that AGW doesn't also play a role itself by bringing us a significant amount of warming in the next few years. And all that is without the doomsday scenario for the cooler bet (which is surely almost a certainty) of the release of an RSS TLT v4.0. Of course, the change from UAH TLTv5.6 to v6.0beta5 did have an opposite effect. (The 'pyramid' trace presently sits 0.08ºC below the 2001-10 average with v6.0 but it would have been down at 0.12ºC below with v5.6.)

20873. Glenn Tamblyn at 22:24 PM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       The whole area of storage is going to take off and grow far more sophisticated. A lot of current thinking (no pun intended) is very preliminary>
       
       I think we will see a very hybrid storage network out there. Large systems like pumped hydro, storage as heat, flow batteries, other mechanical type systems. Then static chemical batteries like Li-Ion and follow-ons like magnesium.
       
       Also missing from this mix is consideration of ultra-capacitors. Maybe not up to storing what batteries can but really really good at the very short charge/discharge cycles. Ideal for protecting chemical batteries from short cycle effects.
       
       Just because the battery in your car only lasts 10-7-5-3 years doesn't mean that you will need a complete new battery pack. An important development might be batteries that can be refreshed/regenerated with much less resources and effort. So when you swap the battery out, the replacement isn't brand new, its just an old battery that was sent off for a 'grease and oil-change'.
       
       Then a wild card development might be the alternative means of charging. Inductive Charging. Non-contact, remote charging. Initially perhaps just a more convenient charging system at home or the office - park and it charges. But it can actually be extended to the roads themselves - inductive charging is possible on the move. Charge up while you sit at the lights, or cruise along the highway. Obviously a huge infrastructure roll-out but that might change the mix - cars with much less storage (I wont say batteries) that are being regularly recharged through the day. Maybe much less battery capacity needed.

20874. dwr at 20:41 PM on 4 March 2017
       Climate Bet for Charity, 2017 update
       

       Colours refer to the lines on the chart at Kiwi Thinker's site, sorry: http://www.kiwithinker.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Climate-Bet-Dec-2016.jpg

20875. dwr at 20:39 PM on 4 March 2017
       Climate Bet for Charity, 2017 update
       

       Kiwi Thinker's method looked good for the 'sceptics' for a a while there.  Doesn't look like that green line has much chance of falling below the red one again between now and 2020.

20876. Riduna at 17:50 PM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       The use of EV batteries to provide additional energy for the grid durng periods of peak demand could cover periods of peak demand 1. if grid management had access to EV batteries when those periods occur - most likely during the daytime and 2. if sufficient EV's were in use, which currently is not the case, though it maybe by 2025.

       However, by 2025 utility-scale storage devices are likely to be available, enabling rapid access to the energy needed to cover peaks in demand and this would obviate the need to access car batteries for back-up energy.

20877. KR at 15:17 PM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Recently, my local electric utility came by with an offer - for a small break on our bill, they installed a controller on our air conditioner that can be used to remotely and briefly shut it down during peak demand times to mitigate shortages.  We agreed - It just made a lot of sense, allowing them to handle higher peak demand spikes without the cost of adding additional rarely used generators.

       It occurs to me that car chargers could be made with that capability built in - 10% longer charging times on occasion would be a small price to pay for electrical utility management, and hardly noticeable. 

20878. jdeutsch at 11:59 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Makes sense from an energy point of view. But we need mass transit as an alternative. BTW, any figures onlife-cycle analysis of electric personal vehicles (mining, manuracturing, recycling, etc.)?

20879. John Hartz at 10:02 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Recommended supplemental reading:

       The End of Range Anxiety by Marlene Cimons, Nexus Media, Mar 1, 2017

20880. nigelj at 07:11 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       William @13, yes batteries getting drained by demand from the grid is an issue. But the grid would probably be drawing power from cars only when the grid is in very short supply, and it would be drawing power from many cars, so might only draw a little from each car, assuming plenty of cars are linked into the scheme.

       It may also be possible to design a car so that only a certain level of power is drawn, to ensure plenty is available in the morning. It should be possible to design things so that the owner can determine how much power is drawn.

20881. william5331 at 06:47 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       A wee problem with this concept is that most people will want their electric vehicle fully charged up in the morning when they head off for work.  I suspect that the real effect of electric vehicles on the grid will be to be able to some extent to be able to be charged when power is available rather than on demand.  This is not as effective as what is proposed here but is still of significant value.  You can charge up at work when the sun shines and the wind blows or at night if there is cheap power available due to a windy night.  All this requires a grid which varies the price of power according to availability and sends the appropriate signal to the user to turn on and off his charging station according to what the user has programed into his charging computer.

       http://mtkass.blogspot.co.nz/2007/10/excess-energy-what-to-do.html

20882. Cooper13 at 02:08 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       jtfarmer-

       You are absolutely correct - this concept is really nothing but a pipe-dream with present battery technologies.

       Most of the Li-ion batteries have something on the order of 1000 charge/discharge cycles before they lose a significant fraction of their capacity (and mileage range). Thus, if you are recharging a couple times a week (say every 3.6 days), that is 100 charge/discharge cycles per year. That means your battery will last around 10 years before it is effectively no longer very useful and needs to be replaced (this is probably more  like 5-7 years in reality with other factors). 

       Now, you hook that battery up to 'act as a grid buffer', and if you end up discharging and recharging 3x as often, you drop your battery life from 10 years to 3 years. NO ONE should consider doing this with an expensive, lightweight Li-ion battery in their car. There are FAR cheaper options for battery technology which are not 'lightweight', but do not need to be. Degrading our electric car batteries to support the grid makes zero sense UNLESS costs to replace them drop enough that they become 'disposable' (and recycleable). 

       Dig a hole in the ground  and use a heavier but robust battery technology that is cheap to support grid draws and buffer wind and solar; trying to use Li-ion from electric vehicles will simply degrade batteries so fast, consumers will get VERY pissed off that their cars no longer have the range they did when they were new, and people will be less likely to spend the extra money on a vehicle which 'wears out' prematurely.

       If we get battery tech that can last 10x longer in cycling, only then does this become a viable option. Until then, chalk it up as a pipe-dream in my book. And I'm all for electric vehicles - just put cheap batteries in the ground to support the grid, because you have space, weight is a non-factor, and you have FAR better temperature homogeneity for them to boot....

20883. Jim Eager at 00:58 AM on 4 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Villabolo wrote "Electric cars are not going to be popular right away because of the hassle of charging them up every 100 miles.”

       Villabolo, you need to get out more. While the Nissan Leaf, Kia Soul and BMW i3 all currently get in the range of 160 km/100 miles per charge, the Chevy Bolt gets 383 km (398 max)/238 miles and the Tesla Model 3 will be in the similar range, so the range hurdle has already been lowered considerably, and the steady roll-out of a fast charger network is lowering it further. Remember, 100 years ago there weren’t all that many gas stations either. That said, although I’m considering buying a Bolt I plan on keeping my ten year old Prius for use on trips to destinations where chargers will be few and far between or non existent, or for times when I need more cargo capacity than the Bolt provides.

20884. Glenn Tamblyn at 20:39 PM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       nigelj
       
       There is an interesting transition pathway here. A friend just bought a Mitsubishi Outlander plug-in hybrid. Only about 50 km on batteries. The technology is essentially a petrol motor and an electric motor driving gearbox etc.  So very much conventional technology. That is phase 1.
       
       Phase 2 is an all-electric drivetrain - electric motors only, goodbye gearboxes. But still a combustion engine but instead it drives a generator to produce electricity to drive the motors or charge the batteries. Actually mechanically much simpler and the combustion engine can now be designed for efficiency rather than the wide power/torque demands of driving.
       
       Then phase 3 does away with the combustion engine.

20885. Glenn Tamblyn at 20:13 PM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       jtfarmer.
       
       You raise an important point. Battery performance is ultimately sticker price and lifetime. Managing how our batteries are used to maximise life-time (or not negatively degrade it) is going to be an important part of the future.
       
       Lots of ideas out there that are great at a conceptual level but the nitty-gritty can be more complex.

20886. BBHY at 18:36 PM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       I just love my electric car. I find it truly annoying that just about every article on electric cars brings comments about cars running on coal. I like to remind people that if your car is running on coal, then so is your refrigerator, air conditioner and big screen TV, so the problem is really not the car, but the coal plant. I've never seen anyone advocate that we should run our refrgerators on gasoline because it is "cleaner".

       In any case, we are getting much less of our power from coal and an ever greater portion of our power from clean renewables. Ironically, this is even indirectly making gasoline fueled cars a bit cleaner, since refining oil into gasoline takes a huge amount of electric power.

       That is why, contrary to what some people say, gasoline cars are never as clean, never can be as clean, as electrics. When you drive using gasoline, you've already used a lot of electric power just to refine your fuel, then you are burning the stuff on top of that!

20887. KR at 14:14 PM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       There are some limitations here. I have a Volt, too, and the pure electric range (50 miles) is too small to provide utility backup and still be a useful electric car. For something like the Bolt, with >200 miles range, there's enough extra capacity to be useful, but there will need to be the flexibility to declare the car off limits for days when you need the full range. 

       House systems are another matter - I have 150A 220V service at my house, and a full charge for a Bolt would require something like 12 hours at 30-40A for completion; the just isn't the capacity for household falls charge/discharge at higher amperages. That's a basic infrastructure issue.

       Given that high demand is often daytime, perhaps emphasizing workplace chargers/sources for use when you're parked at work?

       And perhaps a partial solution might be helpful, too - when extra per is needed, and the car is available, run the house off the car and reduce demand accordingly?

20888. Lachlan at 11:59 AM on 3 March 2017
       Dear Mr President: another message from across the Pond
       

       @me in 15.  Of course I was wrong to suggest that the radial axis be the year; it has to be the amount of ice.  Actually, there doesn't need to be a year axis at all, because the spiral is continuous, and the progression through the months shows how many years have elapsed.

       This site has had similar graphs for other quantities (CO_2 levels?).

20889. Lachlan at 11:55 AM on 3 March 2017
       Dear Mr President: another message from across the Pond
       

       6 - OPOF: I personally think that the spiral is drawn the wrong way.

       There is a natural periodicity to months of the year and to a circle.  I think the month should be the angular axis, and the year should be the radial one.  That shows clearly the inward spiral of the years, with a wobbly shape reflecting the seasonal changes.

       I can't see any benefit at all in curving the natually linear time axis.

       $0.02

20890. michael sweet at 09:59 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Jtfarmer,

       If you plan to charge on windy days (or sunny days) and then have enough power to not charge for several days that would help the grid a lot.  Forecasts of wind and sun are already very accurate for several days out.  You could adjust when you "fill" your car to help reduce demand on slow days.

       Different people will decide what they want to do.  Everyone does not have to participate the same way.  For the right price I would return power to the grid.  If the price was too low I wouldn't.

20891. jtfarmer at 08:46 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       As an owner of a Chevy Volt I'm not too keen on using my car battery for storage/retrieval by the power network. I see it degrading my battery way before its time. I would be willing for it to be used to store excess grid power (hopefully at a discount) but not retrieval by the grid. 

20892. nigelj at 07:22 AM on 3 March 2017
       Republican hearing calls for a lower carbon pollution price. It should be much higher
       

       William @11, I agree with your sentiments and general goals, but there's an issue over oil.

       You say "Get the meme into the head of their boss about how much money America the Great is wasting buying oil overseas, how that money comes back to buy up America the Great and make great Americans tenants in their own country."

       Unfortunately this reasoning is a nice sentiment, but doesn't work. America's net oil imports are only 25% of total consumption as below. Fracking has almost made Americal self sufficient in oil (for a couple of decades anyway until it runs out).

       www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=32&t=6

       But I agree America leads the electric car industry (arguably) and Trump might respond to that and further leadership in renewable energy just to "Make America Great Again".

       I also agree foreign money does buy up a lot of American assets and land, and basically America is a debtor nation in this regard. 

       en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position

       But its not so much due to energy imports or exports and is due to an economic policy of capitalist market forces and open investment flows, and relates to land, manufacturing and financial assets etc. So theres not much governments can do with energy policy that would alter this. It depends more on how much one considers governments should regulate those capital flows, and the standard economic argument is only in emergencies.

       However in my opinion, America should hold onto at least some manufacturing industry (I think thats what you are implying). However I admit economic theory says "it doesn't have to" if other countries do this better, but it seems to me you are creating a very narrow economic base, just reliant on farming and financial services exports, which could create instability, and a narrow selection of job opportunities. And outsourcing manufacture of key military assets is just very high risk, for self evident reasons.

       But tariffs are a very crude way of protecting manufacturing, according to most economists. This that may reduce wealth creation globally, and also in America. It needs a bit more sophisticated thinking.

20893. scaddenp at 06:59 AM on 3 March 2017
       How much does animal agriculture and eating meat contribute to global warming?
       

       Well I dont know what you mean by "good", but its substance was the Briske 2013 paper "The Savory Method can not green deserts or reverse climate change".  More interesting is to follow the ongoing scientific debate. I found Briske response to Teague constructive. My feeling is that more research is going to settle these questions.

20894. michael sweet at 06:08 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       It is interesting to see a diferent method of addresing the issue of storing power for need.  Several different options are offered by this article, Jacobson and the Budischak article linked in the OP.  It will be very interesting over the next ten to twenty years to see which of these options turns out to be the most practical and cheapest.

       It is always better to have several options when you are trying to solve a difficult problem.

20895. william5331 at 05:23 AM on 3 March 2017
       Republican hearing calls for a lower carbon pollution price. It should be much higher
       

       Are we going to keep charging up the centre into the teeth of the maching guns or are we going to outflank them and roll them up from the flank.  Forget the battle to convince any of those worthy gentlemen of the gop (small caps intentional) about climate change.  Get the meme into the head of their boss about how much money America the Great is wasting buying oil overseas, how that money comes back to buy up America the Great and make great Americans tenants in their own country.  Emphasize how some of that money goes to the terrs who attack America the Great and how this could all be solved by a combination of electric cars and lots and lots of solar panels on people's rooves and lots more wind turbines.  Besides, the leading Electric car company of the world is as All American as the New York Yankies.  With all that saved money Trump could rebuild America and get people back to work making him the greatest president America has had since Washington. (using a trowel, not a butter knife)

20896. nigelj at 05:22 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Villabolo @2

       I was wondering about that as well. I agree hybrids with really decent batteries would cover all eventualities, with 100 miles plus on battery and much more on petrol. It's an appealing option, but obviously not zero emissions. That's your real problem. It also adds cost and complexity of two engines, although I admit that is not a huge issue.

       Looking at fully electric cars with 100 - 150 miles range, this does cover most trips, and can be charged overnight. People charge their smartphones every day, and it hasn't stopped them being popular.  

       Most people make short trips, plus a few long trips on holiday. It's not such a big issue to stop for an hour for a coffee or two while the car charges, or rent a very long range electric car for the annual holiday. It's just a mental adjustment and planning thing. 

20897. nigelj at 04:51 AM on 3 March 2017
       Republican hearing calls for a lower carbon pollution price. It should be much higher
       

       This is a very good read on discount rate theory applied to climate change;

       www.sciencenews.org/article/discounting-future-cost-climate-change

       I read it purely to get some understanding of how the economics of this issue works. Conventional  discount rates don't make sense over the long term time frames of climate change. The article discusses modified approaches.

20898. villabolo at 02:49 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       Electric cars are not going to be popular right away because of the hassle of charging them up every 100 miles. Hybrids, on the other hand, get up to 500 (50mpg X ~10 gallons.)

       The best of all worlds will be plug-in hybrids. The 2017 model of the Toyota Prius is supposed to go 20 miles only on electric drive alone and about 500 miles on hybrid - gas/electric. Once they get to the point where they have a range of 100 miles on battery power alone the driver will be able to relax knowing that he could recharge his car at home overnight.

       One thing to keep in mind is the fact that battery technology has been coming down in price, becoming denser in energy storage, and getting safer. The technology is improving fast - every year sees a notable improvement.

       With clean energy as it's source, you can have an 80 to 100% reduction in fossil fuel emissions from vehicles alone.

20899. JWRebel at 02:22 AM on 3 March 2017
       Electric Cars are the Missing Link to a Zero Carbon Energy Grid
       

       In the Netherlands they (cabinet) are toying with a ban on fossil-fuel cars in 2035 (the right) although the left wants to see 2025. They already ban old cars from the city centre — on the highways they compare your license plate and if the car predates certain emission standards, signs warn you not to exit or go into town. The highways for some time now are already being built with facilities under the surface for autonomous driving. Plans are to fit more cars onto narrower lanes spaced close together and driving 150km — such lanes would obviously be barred for manually driven cars. There is a good chance that fossil-fuel and manual driving will run into simultaneous elimination, manual-driving because people don't heed rules and speed limits and a lot of energy and trouble could be saved on speed bumps [it would be interesting to know how much energy stop signs and speed bumps cost] and investments in safety. There is still a challenge in building enough renewable energy of course.

       Things will happen faster than people think. If more people here were less complacent about melting ice and SLR [the country is under sea level, and everybody takes it for granted there will be no problem raising sea walls and barriers for centuries], there would be quite a lot more pressure on the government to set an example for other nations.

20900. David Kirtley at 23:13 PM on 2 March 2017
       Dear Mr President: another message from across the Pond
       

       @10 DrivingBy, further to what Rob and Tom said..."The Pumphandle" video showing the Keeling curve as well as other CO2 measurements from around the globe, clearly shows the differences in S. and N. hemisphere CO2 measurements as the years pass. The graph on the left side shows the various CO2 stations according to latitude. The south pole station is the blue dot on the far left and the Keeling measurements come from Mauna Loa, the red dot. Notice how much the other station readings in the northern hemisphere bounce around during each year.

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