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Tom Curtis at 07:41 AM on 7 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald @47:
1) In the case of the Irish Potato Famine, while corn laws were a government intervention that did not help, the fact is that Irish rents were sufficiently high that those suffering in the famine would have been unable to pay for grain at any price. The rents were set by private market mechanisms and hence the Irish Potato Famine constitutes a market failure. A similar point can be made in Ethiopia in which the government intervention determined that the starvation would occur in the country rather than the cities, but no whether or not starvation would occur.
2)
"The best interest is in fact a "percieved" best interest. However this is still in the best interest of the individual no matter how much they don't know. What they don't know is irrelevent since they don't know it, and thus they will not be able to adjust their decision."
I need to frame that in all its absurdity as an example of just how silly market fundamentalism is.
With similar illogic we can argue that all car accidents are in the "best interests" of their victims who do not percieve themselves as driving too fast, or too tired, or too drunk - else they would not choose to drive. We could likewise argue that there is no such thing as economic fraud, for anybody buying the Brooklyn Bridge (to use the classic example) is acting in their best percieved interest at the time, and hence, by your argument, in their best interest. And if they act in their best interest, they cannot have been harmed.
The fact is, people can act in their own worst interests. They can do so both from not recognizing where their own best interest lies (ie, doing something that they achieve and then regret that they achieved it), or by not recognizing the costs of their acts (ie, doing something and achieving their end, but regret the circumstances in which it is achieved), or by doing something and failing to achieve that which made it worth doing.
3) Why do I think economic growth could reverse with sufficient warming? Well, first, given 10 to 15 C warming, the Earth becomes literally uninhabitable for large mammals (including humans) except at the extreme poles. That is not consistent with economic growth. Ergo, for sufficient warming economic growth must reverse. The question is only how much warming is necessary for that. High end temperature projections for the end of this century approach +7 C so they are in the range of potential, but not certain, reversal of economic growth.
Your claim of uninterupted economic growth is certainly untrue of civilization wide measures. A variety of civilizations have had sustained periods of negative economic growth, in some cases ending the existence of the civilizations. With a truly global civilization developed for the first time in the twentieth century, we now have the possibility of a global reversal in economic growth (if we accept you unsupported claim that it has never occurred before).
4)
"To assume there will not be a market response in the face of an ecological disaster is just a weak position to hold."
On the contrary, I assume that there will be a market response to impacts of global warming. That market response will be, as you yourself say, to leave the poor to their tragedy; to assume that the poor can just migrate to solve the problem while all nations of the world have enacted legislation to prevent that migration (including, most importantly for Bangladesh, India, its only land neighbour), and to assume that, due to market fundamentalism, the poor will not be worse of because they can choose the best option in their worsening condition (as if a person with gangrene in the leg will not be worse of because they can always choose an amputation).
5)
"When I stated that "they offer the wrong solutions" at the end I was referring to interfeering with the natural market."
There are no natural markets. Never have been, and never will be. Currently national markets are (universally SKAIK) distorted by laws permiting limited liability, preferred creditors, the existence of non-natural entities able to own property (corporations), and a legislated annual devaluation of wages and savings (mandatory inflation regulated by central banks). These all work in favour of the rich at the expense of the poor and are government interferences with the market. We also have government provided roads using mandatory acquisition of land to do so, along with various other mandatory "rights" of providers of communication services that allow the providors of those services to gain the necessary right of ways at below market value. We further have courts to enforce legal rights where the prospect of success is a direct function of fees paid to lawyers (which establishes them to be systematically unjust, and unjust in a way that favours the wealthy).
International markets are further distorted by laws that place no limit on the movement of capital, but strictly constrain the movement of people (thereby giving the possessors of capital far more flexibility than those who make a living by selling their labour, to the benefit of the former).
Finally, the fundamental notion of markets (property rights) are socially defined constructs, and in most of the world, socially defined constructs that freeze as legitimate prior acquisitions by naked force (as, for example, all land held other than by indigenous people in North America, or Australia).
I am disinclined to take market fundamentalists seriously until the spend as much time attacking the above listed distortions of the market as they do attacking any that serve to ensure the net gains of the economy are fairly distributed. Until they do, they merely demonstrate that their "market fundamentalism" is an inconsistently applied, and self serving ideology. It is a gambit to improve their position, not a serious belief.
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scaddenp at 06:49 AM on 7 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Tristran - I agree with you as to definition of troll, but I also think there are discussions that are not worth having on this site. Sks exists to explain what peer reviewed science has to say about global warming. There are plenty of other sites in which to have unscientific arguments.
The primary problem is that there is no point having a discussion about the science with someone who chooses to be informed by an ideological position rather than data. The old saying that "you can't reason a person out of position that they werent reasoned into in the first place".
It is the nature of the human condition to try and warp reality to fit our cherished preconceptions and noone is immune. What science training should do is imbue the discipline of letting data change our mind. And that t'aint easy. A scientific discussion necessarily is informed by data and citation is a tool for referencing both data and evaluating it. That is why it is preferred here.
The commonest kind of "pseudo-skeptic" we get here is someone who for ideological or group identity reasons is repelled by suggested solutions to AGW. Instead of suggesting alternative solutions that are compatible with their world view, they instead pursue one or all the canon "It's not happening; It's not us; It's not bad". Understandable but illogical. If no data will cause them to change their mind, then a discussion is not worth happening.
For better or worse, Grizwald57 comes across as someone wedded to an extreme form of free market ideology who I suspect would might even take issue with Milton Friedman on market failures and externalities. I'm also inclined to agree with Dikran that his responses are laughable but whether that is delibrate provation (which would be trolling) or ideological blindness is less clear.
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CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 - Unfortunately, some government action will have to be employed due to fossil fuel externalities not being carried by the emitters, but rather paid in a diffuse and unattributed fashion by the population as a whole - the Tragedy of the Commons. It's less expensive to be a polluter if you can just dump the pollutants into a stream or a landfill, and we have long established regulations to prevent common waters from becoming sewers. The same needs to be applied to fossil fuels, accounting for external impacts such as health, agriculture, oh, and climate change.
If these costs are accounted for then renewables are the most economical source of energy right now. But that will take some regulations and very likely something like a carbon tax so that the actual costs of using fossil fuels are tied to their use, rather than being dumped on everyone else.
As to the poor, and your original comments: the poor, the Third World countries, will have disproportionate impacts from climate change, far out of balance from their contribution to it (as they use less fossil fuel per capita). Yes, anyone can adapt to some extent. But the costs to the disadvantaged will be much higher in both relative and absolute terms, and that is a harm. Which becomes not just an economic issue, but a social and moral one - is it right to profit from short term fossil fuel monies while the costs of those profits fall upon others?
Overcoming individual profit and yes greed requires social structures and strictures such as regulations. The unlimited free market just doesn't do those.
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Tristan at 23:04 PM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
A troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the [i]deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion[/i].
A person who is not good at expressing their views is not a troll. A person who gish gallops is not a troll. A person who dodges questions is not a troll. They might be irritating for you deal with, they might be ideologues, they might even be idiots, but I see DNFTT far too often on this site. It's a dismissive line. It's dismissive of people who don't necessarily agree with you or argue in a 'scientific' manner (that is, calmly making falsifiable statements with citations).
Grizwald is attempting to discuss the subject. He just isn't doing so in the way people here prefer to discuss a topic. Climate communication, any communication, requires patience. Superciliousness is not going to further the conversation. -
Dikran Marsupial at 20:35 PM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald wrote "I will not state my position."
this is more or less an admission of trolling. In a rational discussion intended to establish the truth it ought to be a given that the participants will be willing to state their position on request (indeed they ought to be keen to state it up front). However in discussions on climate this tends not to be the case as people don't want to give hostages to fortune and be required to justify their position later. Shame on you.
As to the other issues, your main error is to concentrate on the number of people in poverty in a given country. However the climate is utterly oblivious to national boundaries, and a countries ability to deal with climate change depends on the proportion of the population in poverty, not the number. Those in poverty do not have the resources to reliably meet their immediate needs, so it is absurd to expect them to provide the resources required for adaption, the resources have to be provided for everybody in that nation by the part of the population that can actually afford it. China has a lot of people earning under $2 (18.6%) but their GDP per capita is $11,868, which suggests there is a good deal of wealth in the 81.4% that are not in poverty who can look after those that are. Nigeria on the other hand has a GDP per capita of less than half that and 82.2% living on less than $2 a day. China has a much larger number of people in poverty than Nigeria, but the reason it has some resources to adapt is that it has an even larger number that are not in poverty. The same is not true for Nigeria.
"The people of Bangladesh would then have to address this constant flooding issue by either running from the tidal wave (the natural human reaction) or somehow economically prevent the flooding (perhaps by somesortof off-shore engineering). To assume there will not be a market response in the face of an ecological disaster is just a weak position to hold. "
This is just silly. Bangladesh has the fifth highest population density of any country and the worlds eighth most populous. There isn't anywhere for them to run to that is agriculturally viable. The only place they could go would be mass migration to othe countries. If you think that wouldn't cause huge political, social and economic problems, then you are on another planet. The idea that some sort of offshore engineering is going to solve the problem is really daft and shows huge igorance of its geography. Bangladesh is basically one big river delta, you have huge amounts of water arriving from inland as well and coming in from rising tides. As for market response, 76.54% of the Bangladeshi population live below the poverty line ($2 a day). They don't have the funds to spend in the market on anything other than their essential daily needs. The GDP per capita of Bangladesh is ranked 144 out of 187 nations by the IMF, so expecting a market response is, to say the least, highly optimistic!
My recommendation is DNFTT, Grizwald is clearly just trolling, as the reticence to state his position and ridiculous arguments clearly demonstrate.
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scaddenp at 18:05 PM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 - what you are saying only applies to rich countries. The poor in rich countries may not be suffering but that doesnt apply in Third World - where there are real poor. A farmer in Bangladesh keeps investing in planting his crops because he doesnt have other choices. Well, yes, when starvation is imminant because land is lost, then you must leave, but the result is probably the same for most. The poor on the whole dont have choices.
All the actual studies show that mitigation is cheaper, but the costs are in future and/or inflicted on those who are not responsible. If you having to pay now the costs of climate change, then transition from FF would be happening rather quickly.
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Grizwald57 at 16:51 PM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
I'm sorry for reposting that. It was my mistake.
Tom Curtis...
Even if I do ignore geographic impact factors, the poor are still going to be able to adapt. Just because there is a wealth inequality does not mean the poor are unable to adapt. It is true that the rich will be more able to adapt but this is true for all circumstances. The rich being more well off than the poor is just a fact of life. But this is not an inherently bad thing. The key thing you said was "as much." As much, is still implying a level of adaptation. I don't have as much food as a millionaire does, but I'm not suffering. When I worked at a fast food restaurant making minimum wage I was not suffering. Just because a person must adapt to a changing environment does not mean they will suffer. If I am a farmer, and for the past 10 years I've noticed decreasing crop yields, I can either continue farming the land knowing eventually I will be unable to produce any crops, invest in better farming techniques, or sell my land for a cheaper price. But the only way I could end up suffering in this situation is if I chose the option which gave me the least percieved benefits which I won't logically do. That is the ONLY way I could end up suffering. Logically, no one would ever choose the option which gave the least benefits.
Now, if mitigation costs less than adaptation, then either presently or in the near future we should see more private investments into environmental sustainability. If there are net gains to be made from renewble energy (which I suspect in the coming decades), then transitions will be made.
Moderator Response:[RH] I would challenge you to go talk to these people and tell them there is "nothing inherently bad" about their situation. http://climateandcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2012/08/Bangladesh-floods.jpg (Note: I had to check myself a little by not selecting one of the far worse images of people's situations in Bangladesh.)
[RH] Also, please, no all-caps, as per comments policy.
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TonyW at 15:00 PM on 6 November 2014Climate Change: The 40 Year Delay Between Cause and Effect
This is a bit late but I think this article needs serious re-editing. It correctly quotes a paper by Hansen, et al with "the time required for 60% of global warming to take place in response to increased emissions to be in the range of 25 to 50 years" but later goes on the say "With 40 years between cause and effect" and this is reflected in the title. I'm not referring to the rounding to 40 years but to the implication that any CO2 that lodges in the atmosphere won't warm the surface at all for 40 years (or whatever the actual period is). This is surely incorrect. The CO2 has well known heat trapping properties, which are not put into abeyance for some decades. The lag is not a lag at all, it is simply that 60% of the ultimate effect takes some decades to become manifest. But some smaller percentage becomes manifest in a smaller time. Indeed, the CO2 begins trapping heat immediately.
Hansen et al (2011) ("Earth's Energy Imbalance and Implications") includes a graphic representation of the climate response to a doubling of CO2 (though I can't see why a similar response curve wouldn't apply to any increase in CO2 forcing). It shows a very rapid response to the forcing, reaching 60% in about something less than half a century, as far as I can tell, but 40% effect is reached within a few years.
So there is no lag at all; it's simply that it takes perhaps 40 years or so for most of the ulitimate effect to be felt.
muoncounter got it about right in an earlier comment but this didn't result in any editing of the article.
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wili at 14:07 PM on 6 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45A
Thanks, Ash and dag. In the big perspective, if either of the major parties win, we all lose, as they're both ultimately in the System and part of the problem. But it is rather sad to see the worst of two Weavels again get the upper hand...again.
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scaddenp at 13:49 PM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
" The people of Bangladesh would then have to address this constant flooding issue by either running from the tidal wave (the natural human reaction) or somehow economically prevent the flooding (perhaps by somesortof off-shore engineering)."
So I gather you are perfectly happy with one lot of people reaping the benefits while another pay the costs? Do you seriously expect that view to be respected? Or since AGW is caused by rich nations, are suggesting that the rich nations should pay for the Bangladesh (and every other delta) coastal defense? If your neighbours action caused you to lose you land, then I strongly suspect you would run to court of law. Same here?
And where would expect the Bangladeshi to run to? Are you suggesting the rich countries should take the refugees from the climate problems they have caused?
The problem with the "natural market" is that the externalities are not being factored into the price, and those affected most have no recourse against those doing the damage. Change that and carbon-based energy becomes expense.
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nigelj at 13:42 PM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Michael Sweet #10.
Totally agree. I have seen Gavins comments on those isues. Unfortunatly the mainstream media (newspapers etc) often ignore good scepticism like that, and often give vent to the extremists like Christopher Moncton.
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CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 - All economic decisions have both costs and benefits. In this particular situation the choice lies somewhere in a mix of mitigation choices and forced adaptations to the consequences of our emissions.
The majority of the studies I've seen on relative cost/benefits indicate that adaptation will cost between 5-10X more than mitigation (including transitioning away from fossil fuels). In fact, much as transitioning from horses to autos led to major economic gains, there are strong indications that the transition to renewables will also lead to net economic gains. While there are a few exceptions to this, they include primarily conomists with unsupportable assumptions and some who assert that we will simply invent our way out of trouble - even though you cannot schedule inventions...
Note that many adaptation costs will be fixed - salt encroachment into farmlands doesn't differentiate based on local incomes, and the poor will not be able to afford as much adaptation as the rich. The poor will indeed suffer more from adaptation than the rich, even if you ignore the geographic impact factors.
BAU is, in fact, the more expensive path to take.
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Stranger8170 at 12:25 PM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
As a constant Skeptical Science lurker I’ve only made a couple of posts since the inception of this blog. I’ve read a lot on the subject at other venues as well.
Over the years that I’ve been paying attention I’ve come to realize that the science in support of the theory of AGW is being researched by Republicans, Democrats and Independents. Every prestigious scientific society along with every prestigious peer reviewed journal say that man is the main driver of climate change.
From my reading of the issue over the past 15 years or so it seems that those researchers and fake experts who are “skeptical” all seem to have one thing in common. They’re all Republican libertarian types which makes it seem evident that their political ideology rises to a much higher level than the science. Perhaps there is an exception that proves the rule but I’m not aware of it. John Coleman and those in leage with him might contemplate that when you believe the world is all wrong and that your all right that perhaps some interspection should be undertaken.
It’s just a nonscientist’s opinion. -
Grizwald57 at 11:26 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Tom Curtis...
How quaint. You rail on the market for apparently not being efficient enough to provide the best interest of the poor. And your examples of this are both in which government action cripled market adjustment and, in the case of Ethiopia, worsened a market bust.
But thank you for qualifying my claims. The best interest is in fact a "percieved" best interest. However this is still in the best interest of the individual no matter how much they don't know. What they don't know is irrelevent since they don't know it, and thus they will not be able to adjust their decision.
As for the IAM's, you've stated that economic stability would be hurt by rising temperatures but you have not explained why. "economic growth will be a thing of the past" is just false. If you take the economy worldwide for all of recorded history it has seen nothing but economic growth, and it has over time accelerated. What is your argument for this assertion?
As for my apparent contradiction, your simply viewing it incorrectly. If the people of Bangladesh are constantly flooded then the wealthy will not invest any capital into Bangladesh. The people of Bangladesh would then have to address this constant flooding issue by either running from the tidal wave (the natural human reaction) or somehow economically prevent the flooding (perhaps by somesortof off-shore engineering). To assume there will not be a market response in the face of an ecological disaster is just a weak position to hold.
"Historically, the higher the infant mortality rate, the larger the family size people try to maintain. Consequently you have this argument exactly reversed." Well I guess the logical conclusion people would naturally come to is wrong... that if you plan on raising a child for the next say 16 years, if you cannot feed that child then it is a misallocation of resources. That is if the chance of your child dieing is about 70% that is equivalent to a great deal of time, energy, and food being waisted. But I will refrain (and I ask you to as well please) to continue arguing this particular issue because it is unrelated.
When I stated that "they offer the wrong solutions" at the end I was referring to interfeering with the natural market. If AGW is in fact a dire threat to civilization then please by all means continue to support the movement to go green. But please do not use immoral means to achieve your end. That is do not run around the globe with a gun forcibly preventing anyone from using carbon.
Moderator Response:[RH] Please watch the tone. And please read the comments policy before making further comments.
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michael sweet at 11:08 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Science has good skeptics. Gavin Schmidt ar Real Climate argued against a collapse of Arctic Sea ice in 2012 based on his model results. His skepticism is looking much better now than it did in 2012. He argues strongly that the "methane bomb" hypothesis of a catastrophic release of Arctic sea and/or land methane is unlikely to occur. These arguments help to advance understanding. Hopefully he is right on both counts. Other scientists are equally skeptical. The people who call themselves skeptics are really not skeptical. They believe anything but CO2.
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Tom Curtis at 09:55 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Griszwald57 @42:
"The main argument people use in support of limiting population growth is that we will not be able to feed everyone and people will die off. As if in the future we will have hundreds of babies and 90% will die off. Yet this argument fails because it assumes people will continue having babies with a 90% mortality rate."
Historically, the higher the infant mortality rate, the larger the family size people try to maintain. Consequently you have this argument exactly reversed. The best hope of reducing population growth is to raise wealth and health resources among the very poor sufficient that they then have smaller families. (This works best if they do not have religious bars against restricting familly size.) Of course, failing this population growth will be reduced by other, more tragic means in the future.
"Industrial use of carbon on a global scale has increased the standard of living tremendously. In fact, by my guess, its probably saved billions of lives. To turn back on this progrss, and regress, would be to condemn millions to starvation and death. Advocates of cutting back carbon emissions because of AGW bring up alot of fears about the future, yet they offer the wrong solutions."
The premise is correct. The conclusion does not follow.
For an analogy, the introduction of plumbing into cities saved thousands of lives. Unfortunately, the early plumbing (in Europe at least), was made from lead, leading to wide spread lead poisoning. It did not follow from the fact that the plumbing had saved lives to begin with that the switch from lead to copper plumbing was not a good move. In like manner, a switch from fossil fuel to renewable energy resources is justified by the threat of AGW even though the initial use of fossil fuels was a good thing.
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Tom Curtis at 09:46 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
scaddenp @43, in a way that point of Grizwald57 is correct. It is also misleading. The growth of income of the wealthy is partly coupled to the overall growth in the economy. If the people of Bangladesh are flooded continually, then the growth of income of the wealthy will be reduced by something in the order of the reduction of wealth in Bangladesh times the proportion of global wealth in Bangladesh (ie, well below rounding error of other effects). As impacts of global warming increase, the wealthy will only be able to continue to get rich by retaining a larger proportion of global wealth (which can be done in the short term).
Of course, that logic contradicts Grizwald's later claim that AGW at most can limit economic growth (an unrealistic assumption built into IAMs, not a conclusion from them).
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Tom Curtis at 09:39 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 @42, spoken with the true calousness of the fanatical market enthusiast.
Thus we have:
"Either humans change or they die off. As AGW impacts the environment, individual human responses to it will vary, but no matter what, each response will be in the best interest of each human."
Which is false. What you meant to say was that "each response will be in the best interest of each human given their marketable economic resources", at least if you are going to represent economic theory accurately. In 1983-85 in Ethiopia, what was in "the best interest of" 400,000 humans "given their marketable economic resources" was to die from starvation.
Now unless you are so truly divorced from reality as to think dieing from starvation is in anybody's best interest, you need to recognize that markets fail. They particularly fail for the poor, whose limited market resources leave them vulnerable to the whims of the wealthy (as for example, in the great Irish potato famine in which thousands starved to death while abundant Irish wheat crops were sold to England for English bread).
Even thus corrected for reality, the claim would still be wrong. It reqires the further correction that "each response will be in the percieved best interest of each human given their marketable economic resources". Given inperfect human knowledge, misperceptions of the best self interest are common, and actively promoted by the advertizing industry (whose real economic task is to destroy utility).
The best available evidence suggests that not curtailing GHG emissions is an example of such misperception. That is, all current Integrated Assessment Models (IAM) show real future economic growth is best achieved by limiting carbon equivalent emissions. That includes those IAMs with a very high discount for the future, and which rate welfare based on current wealth distributions (ie, consider the suffering of the poor less important the the restricted growth of wealth of the rich).
A fatal flaw of those IAMs is that they isolated economic growth from impacts of CO2. That is, they assume the same base economic growth rate regardless of temperature increase. As economic impacts approach, and exceed growth rates at higher temperatures, that is a thoroughly unjustified assumption and there is a real possibility that by the end of this century, economic growth will be a thing of the past. The assumption (and that is all it is) that "The only real impact it would have is to limit the growth of our standard of living" is not justified, and allmost certainly false if high end projections of temperature increase by the end of this century are realized (or if high end projections of economic impacts are realized with central estimates of temperature increase).
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scaddenp at 09:32 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
"If the standard of living for the poor is worsened by AGW, then consquentially the standard of living for the rich will also be worsened because of AGW. "
I am not sure I follow this. This surely only applies when there is close economic connection.
A realistic scenario is for sealevel rise to significantly worsen conditions in densely populated deltas with largely poor farmers, eg Bangladesh. Salt contamination, land loss, storm surges will likely result in deaths, loss of livelihood and inland migration with resulting heightened communal tensions. These impacts I note to people who contribute next to nothing to AGW and who lives have certainly not be enriched by FF in any significant way that I am aware of.
I dont see how the effects on these people will have any significant economic impact on rich European or Americans who contribute the most to AGW and who have the means to decarbonize their energy supplies. Tell me how decarbonizing these economies is going to "to condemn millions to starvation and death"?
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nigelj at 09:26 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Michael Sweet #2.
"Can you suggest a skeptical argument that is not a poor argument?"
To be honest, no. However I was just not wanting to put down all sceptics, and come across as one sided. Obviously science needs good scepticism.
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Grizwald57 at 09:13 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
KR...
This report states the threats and impacts but fails to acknowledge human adaptations in the face of these impacts. Rather it's solution is to use the hand of government to enforce unnatural market adaptations. Historically, there has always been a human response to environmental change. Either humans change or they die off. As AGW impacts the environment, individual human responses to it will vary, but no matter what, each response will be in the best interest of each human.
Furthermore, regarding the impact upon poverty, it is false to state that one economic class will be more impacted than a higher economic class. If you lower the standard of living for one economic class it will impact the standard of living for another economic class. You must look at the average standard of living for all economic classes together. If the standard of living for the poor is worsened by AGW, then consquentially the standard of living for the rich will also be worsened because of AGW.
Finally, I want to address the assumption, it seems, that AGW will create a decline in the standard of living for all of humanity worldwide. The only real impact it would have is to limit the growth of our standard of living. What I mean by this is as AGW continues to impact the world, the market response to it will reach a limit, inhibiting further growth. But the standard of living will not fall, rather it will reach a limit.
Alot of this argument made by climate scientists and advocates of public policy changes seems to be in parallel with the same argument about population growth. The main argument people use in support of limiting population growth is that we will not be able to feed everyone and people will die off. As if in the future we will have hundreds of babies and 90% will die off. Yet this argument fails because it assumes people will continue having babies with a 90% mortality rate.
Industrial use of carbon on a global scale has increased the standard of living tremendously. In fact, by my guess, its probably saved billions of lives. To turn back on this progrss, and regress, would be to condemn millions to starvation and death. Advocates of cutting back carbon emissions because of AGW bring up alot of fears about the future, yet they offer the wrong solutions.
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Newbie43 at 06:19 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 lags temperature
Link to "Lorius 1990" seems broken:
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1990/1990_Lorius_etal.pdfIs this the one that is intended?
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/1990/1990_Lorius_etal_1.pdf -
CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 - From the IPCC AR5 Summary for Policymakers, section 2.3, Future risks and impacts caused by a changing climate:
Climate change will amplify existing risks and create new risks for natural and human systems. Risks are unevenly distributed and are generally greater for disadvantaged people and communities in countries at all levels of development.
References are given, the data is mostly in the AR5 WG2 report, Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability. I would have to say the evidence does not support your point of view. The poor will be more affected by AGW than the rest of the population.
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dagold at 05:27 AM on 6 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45A
Wii: my Huffington Post/ Common Dreams article speaks to your post. Here it is: www.commondreams.org/views/2014/11/04/playing-lose-electing-gop-age-climate-chaos
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Grizwald57 at 05:23 AM on 6 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Perhaps I was wrong. I was using the equator as my judgment. But my real statement was that areas that are less economically suitable have never been and most likely will never be largely populated because of the natural limitations. These places are as I said usually deserts, mountains, and jungles. And you can see on average these places are not very populous.
Your map does indicate population DENSITY is higher in those regions that are more vulnerable. But density only compares population to the size of the country. If you look at these carribean islands, and countries such as Columbia, Venezuela, Nigeria, Ghana, Rwanda, ect, you'lle find that these countries don't have as many people living in poverty as do countries such as China, India, U.S., ect. In summary, the more populous countries (countries which have more people living in poverty) tend to be better economically suited and better prepared to handle severe climate change. Countries which are not well prepared to handle climate change do not have high populations of poor people, so it is incorrect to say that climate change will hurt the poor more.
I will not state my position. This is my critique of the Skeptical Science argument that the poor will be worse off because of climate change. More people would be lifted out of poverty than would be hurt from AGW.
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Ashton at 04:48 AM on 6 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45A
Unfortunately, it seems many American voters did not read the 29 bullet points and have issued a message to American politicians that for them, climate change, which rates 8th out of 11as a matter of voter concern, is not a particularly significant problem. It seems that short termism, particularly when it comes to the hip pocket nerve, is still alive and well.
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Dennis at 04:17 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
If there were open and fair discussion of the proposal and theory of climate change I would be a lot more comfortable listening
Putting aside what "proposal and theory" might mean in this context, there has been plenty of open and fair discussion out there for many years for you listen to. Read the IPCC technical reports for a start. If there's something in there you disagree with, then read the underlying scientific papers that the reports reference (there are thousands of them). And if you still have difficulties after that, contact the authors of those papers. This is how the fair and open discussion in science works.
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Roger D at 03:20 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
...But I you have admit Electoken's "heat island affect", instead of "effect" does nicely distinguish the 'skeptic' canard from the actual phenomenon.
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Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Electroken has commented here before [thank you Google, I thought the name sounded familiar], for example on water vapor, cosmic rays, and other threads. His theme of water vapor and aquifers has appeared before too. No learning curve has been evident, no response to information he has been presented with.
He tends to pop up, spout nonsense/Gish gallops, and vanish again. DNFTT.
Moderator Response:[JH] Excellent advice.
Electoken is on a path to relinguish his/her privilege to post comments on this site.
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PhilippeChantreau at 01:24 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Electroken, your post amounts to a gish gallop. You should familiarize yourself with the comments policy. Each of the arguments you present has been thoroughly examined.
The entire premise for the existence of the website known as WUWT was the temperature measurement argument, which was found to be in error early on by layman's work, then later by peer-reviewed studies.
The water vapor argument is examined on this site, you can find the thread easily by a few clicks. Land use has been the subject of extensive study and is examined in detail by the IPCC when looking at attribution.
There are enormous amounts of money to be made by already existing interests if the status quo is maintained, a few individuals stand to disproportionately benefit from it.
Not a single one of your arguments has been shown to have merit. It seems you got some very poot quality information on the subject and that you have not bothered getting acquainted with the real science. It would advisable to do so if you want to have a truly informed opinion.
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Tom Curtis at 01:07 AM on 6 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
franklefkin @32, jesse_a_b may have been merely confused, missing not one, but two links to the petition and that would have been understandable had they merely asked where the link was. Instead of asking, they described the article as "risible", and decried the absence of a link (of which there were two) as "proving to everyone how unscientific this website is". An apology is well in order, as also the retraction of the unwarranted opinion about the quality of this website.
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electroken at 01:03 AM on 6 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
I can think of a lot of reasons to take a stance against the consensus that CO2 is causing all the problems with what is now called "climate change" and no longer called "global warming".
The temperature taking has been influenced in many places by the "heat island affect" caused by large population centers. Some measurements are suspect because of the location of the sensor.
I am sure that the sea water temperature is not being taken to assure that is it a good indicator since most is done by satelite now which only shows surface temps. I am not convinced we have sufficient temperature taking at enough places on the globe to assume any kind of rise or fall.
I have seen graphs which show the rise of temps and fall of temps via core samples from trees and from arctic ice etc. I have also seen that the CO2 seems to rise following the temperature rise and not ahead of it. How do we conclude that the CO2 is causing the rise and not just rising because of it?
I am looking at the use of water in the USA and I assume it is going on elsewhere too. There has been a marked increase in the amount of water used for irrigation in the USA since the 1950's. To ignore this is really questionable. I contend and a lot of others do too, that this use of water for irrigation and also use for creating green spaces is causing a major shift in weather patterns.
No one can become rich if the cause of any warming trend is being attributed to water vapor. A great deal of money hangs on the selling of carbon credits doesnt it? I say follow the money.
Also there has been some research about cosmic rays being responsible for climate change but that does not seem to get any attention. It is plausable in my opinion but noone wants to look into it but a very few scientists.
If there were open and fair discussion of the proposal and theory of climate change I would be a lot more comfortable listening. That all who believe other than the "accepted truth" are treated as fools and disparaged is making me see this as a political issue and not a scientific one.
Ken
Moderator Response:[JH] Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can be rescinded if the posting individual treats adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.
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franklefkin at 00:23 AM on 6 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
Rob,
the blue link titled "OSIM Petition" leads directly back to here. The red "OSIM" caption does in fact lead to the petition. Since you normally provide links that are blue, his confusion is understandable.
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Tom Curtis at 23:07 PM on 5 November 2014CO2 is plant food
james baggett @25, fundamental to the ecology of plants is that they are preyed on by a great variety of insects and animals. To remain healthy in the face of this predation, they must produce far more organic matter (sugars and cellolose) than they themselves directly use. Further, if they are to grow in mass, they must draw down the carbon in that mass from the atmosphere by photsynthesizing carbon. Because of that, in any healthy plant over the course of a year, it draws down far more CO2 through photosynthesis then it produces by oxidizing sugars. If plants did not do this, the presence of plants would not have substantially increased the O2 content of the atmosphere today relative to values prior to the carboniferous. Ergo, it is simply wrong to assume that any excess draw down of CO2 due to the CO2 fertilization effect will not only be matched, but exceeded by an increased production of CO2 by cellular respiration.
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CBDunkerson at 23:06 PM on 5 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
nigelj, note that Coleman is a "weather person" only in the sense that he made a career out of reading the weather on radio and then television. Before that he was a radio DJ for a bandstand show. He's a professional communicator / entertainer. He has no background in meteorology or any other science.
Thus, while he may have biases which make him not want to understand the science, it is also possible that he just doesn't have the academic background to "comprehend graphs and trends".
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james baggett at 22:34 PM on 5 November 2014CO2 is plant food
Hey guys, CO2 is not plant food. It is a reactant along with water for photosynthesis. The food of plants, as well as everything other living organism, is glucose which it makes itself through photosynthesis. More CO2 in the atmosphere would increase photosynthesis, however a plant only gives off oxygen during the light dependent reactions. It uses oxygen during cellular respiration 24 hours per day. Therefore, the increase in oxygen in the atmosphere from an increase in CO2 would be more than offset by the increase in the consumption of oxygen when a plant undergoes cellular respiration which happens 24 hours a day.
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wili at 22:06 PM on 5 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45A
Thanks for these.
Unfortunately, this (or something similar) should be in your next Roundup:
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Rob Honeycutt at 12:33 PM on 5 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
jesse... Top of the page, it's right there in red letters that say "OISM."
We'll now be expecting an apology and an enthusiastic endorsement from you regarding this very scientific website.
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Tom Curtis at 11:56 AM on 5 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
jesse_a_b @29, do you mean to say that the second link in the intermediate article does not work for you? Or are you merely proving how scientific you are by criticizing based on false, and easilly falsified information?
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jesse_a_b at 11:22 AM on 5 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
Not even linking the petition in question makes your article risible. Thank you for proving to everyone how unscientific this website is.
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michael sweet at 08:37 AM on 5 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
Nigelj:
Can you suggest a skeptical argument that is not a poor argument?
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nigelj at 07:39 AM on 5 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
The article makes valid points. Of course it is worth noting not all sceptical arguments are poor arguments. However Colemans argument on arctic ice is just plain wrong and is unintelligent. Now he is obviously an intelligent fellow, so why makes such a stupid argument?
Well possibly even though he is intelligent, he literally can’t comprehend graphs and trends. Some people are like this, although you wonder how a weather person could be like this and still function.
Or Coleman hates the climate change consensus, so he is prepared to say outrageous things. I wouldn't know what his hatred is, maybe it is professional jealousy, or he has a libertarian ideology. I must admit I’m mystified by people like Coleman. Maybe someone has an explanation.
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Dikran Marsupial at 22:50 PM on 4 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 wrote "This is why the least populous countries have historically been those closer to the equator."
This isn't actually true
Europe is densely populated, but it seems the exception rather than the rule and on average tropical countries appear to be more populous than those in temperate regions (with the exception of Europe). Desert regions are a result of Hadley cells IIRC, and it is hardly surprising that deserts have a low population density, but these regions are not actually on the equator.
It isn't clear to me what you are trying to say in your post. Perhaps it would help if you were to clearly state what your position actually is on the question of how the poor are likely to be impacted by climate change.
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Grizwald57 at 15:39 PM on 4 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Historically, population booms have occurred based on climate and coinciding with that have been technological increases. This is why the least populous countries have historically been those closer to the equator. Countries in sub-saharan Africa, countries in huge swaths of desert such as Saudi Arabia, and countries in dense jungles have never had very high populations and consequently saw very little development. This leads to my argument. You cannot take very sparsely populated countries such as those in sub-saharan and central africa, or mountain and jungle covered countries such as those found in central America as examples of a general decrease in standards of living. You cannot use these sparsely populated countries as the basis for your argument that the poor will be less well off. It is only specific to these areas. You are using the most underrepresented countries as your data. China for example has far more poverty stricken people compared to these African countries when you take into account total population and percentage of the poor. 249.984 million people in china lived on less than $2 a day in 2011. Rwanada had 52.6 million people living on less than $2 a day in 2011. China had almost 5 times as many people in poverty as Rwanda a country more affected by Global Warming.
Another thing this does not take into account is the movement of peoples. It assumes populations will stay in an environment becoming desertified when this is just not true. Therefore the entire argument is actually fallacious because it is based on a false assumption.
And finally your assumption at the end that these poor countries will not develop is actually contradictory since the data your using is at the same time assuming the populations of these countries will increase, which they have presently been doing, and because of this population increase also consume more carbon. It also fails to take into account market (technological) adapatations. States in the southern U.S. and other developing cities have seen booms in populations since the development of technologies such as centralized air conditioning.
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skyman at 08:55 AM on 4 November 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
Regarding Judith Curry's comments, NASA researchers recently published a study which appears to support Dr. Curry's contentions:
A separate study in August (2014) in the journal Science said the apparent slowdown in the Earth's surface warming in the last 15 years could be due to that heat being trapped in the deep Atlantic and Southern Ocean.
But the NASA researchers said their approach, described in the journal Nature Climate Change, is the first to test the idea using satellite observations, as well as direct temperature measurements of the upper ocean.
"The deep parts of the ocean are harder to measure," said researcher William Llovel of NASA JPL.
"The combination of satellite and direct temperature data gives us a glimpse of how much sea level rise is due to deep warming. The answer is — not much."NASA Study Finds Earth’s Ocean Abyss Has Not Warmed
http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/october/nasa-study-finds-earth-s-ocean-abyss-has-not-warmed/
Moderator Response:[TD] There is a post here on SkS about that paper.
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Kevinb3 at 04:28 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
I get it KR. Thanks
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Dikran Marsupial at 03:49 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3 If a climate website wanted to publish an article on the TCP paper, that shows the 97% concensus on climate change, would they be required to give links to all 12,000 papers that were considered, or would it be O.K. just to give a link to the paper itself?
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Dikran Marsupial at 02:56 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3, you are being unreasonable. The whole point of people conducting surveys is to give a summary of what has been published on some topic. If you don't accept the survey then the onus is on you to conduct a survey of your own and draw your own conclusions. The authors of the survey have identified the papers for you, requesting they give links rather than the normal form of citations used in journal papers is basically asking to be spoon-fed.
I am beginning to suspect that you don't actually have any objection to the concusion of the survey and are just using the "method of unreasonable expectations" to avoid accepting it.
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What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3 - The references (papers on cooling, warming, or neutral) are clearly listed in Peterson et al, Table 1. A quick search on Google Scholar (which is extremely useful for this) shows that many are articles in Science or Nature, which require subscription or purchase.
Several notes here:
- The SkS page is reporting on the Peterson et al paper, the results; demanding that SkS obtain and publicise all source materials for every paper discussed is unreasonable.
- Copyright and ownership would prevent free general access to those papers not made available by the publishers or authors.
- Looking up references is really part of doing science.
- The Peterson et al paper is itself primary literature, your description of this as "what the papers say from third parties" is in error.
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John Hartz at 01:40 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
The remainder of John Cook's notes to the OP (visible only to SkS authors):
http://www.ametsoc.org/Chapters/asheville/mythAshevilleJanuary2008.ppt
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/131047.pdf
William Connelly blogs on his paper: (good comments)
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