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Dikran Marsupial at 08:40 AM on 30 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William Haas wrote: "1850 to 2012 is much more challenging because of the changes in direction."
Specifically what "changes in direction" do you refer to that are in the period 1850-2012 but not in 1900-2000 and explain why they should be challenging (this should include a discussion of relevant forcings for those periods)?
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dkaroly at 08:09 AM on 30 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
wild monkeys #21: Yes, your interpretation is correct, there is about a 1 in 20 chance of global temperatures remaining below 2.3C above pre-industrial in 2100, and a 1 in 20 chance of global warming exceeding 9C.
William #12, #18: The simulations with this simple model start before 1850 and agree well with the observations for the period 1850 to 2010 when forced by the observed and estimated emissions. We are putting together a figure to show this. That result is not surprising, as the model parameters are constrained using the carbon dioxide, global mean temperature, ocean heat content and land-ocean temeprature contrast observations from the 20th century.
tcflood #16: This simple climate model is essentially a four-box energy balance anomaly model of the NH and SH land and ocean regions separately. It was developed originally by Tom Wigley and is called MAGICC (Model for the Assessment of Greenhouse gas Induced Climate Change). It has input parameters which represent the climate sensitivity and the exchanges of heat between the land and the ocean and between the hemispheres, which are estimated from the more complex models or from observations. This type of model has been used in all IPCC assessments since 1990. Information and links to download an older version of MAGICC are available at www.cgd.ucar.edu/cas/wigley/magicc/
or the latest version at www.magicc.org/ .The advatage over the more complex models is that it can provide probabilistic estimates of future temperature change given emission scenarios and probability estimates of the model parameter values. More information on the model version we have used and our approach is given in a recent paper at www.bom.gov.au/amoj/docs/2012/bodman.pdf
Response:[JC] David Karoly emailed me a graph comparing his model output to observations, which I've added to the original post above.
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scaddenp at 07:59 AM on 30 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
A certain breed of "sceptic" does this - usually referred to as lukewarmers. So classification of what you mean by "sceptic" is tricky. In all those polls that ask "do you believe in man-made climate change", I am happy to agree that those that say "no" are not "sceptic" - bringing a fine word into disrepute - but simply and accurately deniers.
However a real skeptic is critical of all evidence. Faux skeptics fete any paper that suggests low sensitivity or reduced effects and attack any paper suggests high sensitivity or expensive consequences. (Of course same criticism of lack of skepticism can levelled at the greenpeace crowd but in reverse).
For the policy maker though, you have to go with consensus position and precautionary principle.
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Rob Honeycutt at 07:34 AM on 30 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Peter... I would beg to differ: Principia-Scientific.
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Peter Shortner at 07:01 AM on 30 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Sceptics don't deny the fact that putting more co2 molecules in the air will lead to more warming.
They only question two things:
1. But how much warming will that be ?
2, And how bad is that warming ?
Off course the are scientific projections with uncertainties.
The main uncertainties: clouds and oceans.
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wild monkeys at 06:26 AM on 30 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
Does it mean there is a 1:20 risk of 9°C warming or more? That's really scary.
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Philippe Chantreau at 15:57 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Shollenberger need not have his intent assumed when he has a long and rich history on SkS of clearly demonstrating said intent. I would caution all by emphasizing that any attempt to engage in anything productive with him will be a complete waste of time. DNFTT.
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KR at 15:48 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon - You have clearly attempted to redefine the categories as used by the raters to values not used in the paper, as in this extended post. Exclusive choose-one categories used by raters (and authors) who were well aware of the consensus view, and judged the abstracts and papers regarding endorsement or rejection according to how they matched that view.
That's not a reexamination of the data on your part - that's a redefinition, a "black is white" or "up is down" Newspeak claim that the rating judgements were somehow not what was used in the Cook et al paper. Judgements entirely supported by the existing literature, and confirmed by the author self-ratings, I'll point out.
Again; if you feel this is in error, do the work. Evaluate some abtracts with your particular critera, present your data, and see if it holds up. Oreskes managed it on her own; surely you can - if you actually think the data supports your point of view. But this repeated claim that the rater judgement criteria were not what was actually used, that the raters repeatedly misinterpreted ambiguous abstracts as wholly endorsing the consensus, is simply silly; one of the most clearly absurd objections to the consensus.
[ In fact, this approach of 'auditing' of climate papers is but an absurd parody of science - no new facts, measures, or analysis, just nit-picking of others results (often simply semantic, as in this case) with an apparent aim of discrediting them. Nothing new, nothing gained, nothing creative - just insinuations of doubt. I (IMO) consider this one of the trademarks of false skepticism; these objections without contributions. ]
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:19 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
And I have to add... Your grasping at the $1600 thing is another sign that you need some reason to reject the findings, even though the findings are the right answer.
The $1600 is a glaring innocuous element of the issue.
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Rob Honeycutt at 15:15 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon... If I tell you that your responses are "flawed because they're flawed" that really doesn't communicate much substance.
The only thing I can come up with here is that you're experiencing a form of cognitive dissonance, where the paper gets the "answer right" but is still flawed over the definition of a commonly understood word.
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Brandon Shollenberger at 14:53 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Composer99, I have no idea how you can say I "brushed off the simplest explanation" when I directly responded to the commenter you refer to. I specifically acknowledged his point and explained why it doesn't address what I've been trying to say. Repeating a point I promptly responded to while claiming I ignored it seems... strange.
Rob Honeycutt, I have little belief as to what the results of a well-designed project would be. I say this work is flawed because it's flawed. We shouldn't ignore problems with a paper just because it gets a "right" answer.
Beyond that, without a definition for what the "consensus" examined in this work actually is, there's no way to intelligently discuss its results. Even if I liked the results, I couldn't reasonably promote them without knowing what they are. I cannot sensibly tell people there's a "97% consensus" if I don't know what the consensus says.
You're free to make whatever assumptions you want about my beliefs or motivations, but no matter what you believe about me, it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to ask what the "consensus" actually is. Assuming nefarious intent on my part doesn't change anything.
Moderator Response:[JH] You are once again skating on the thin ice of sloganeering and excessive repitition. If you cannot cease and desist from this unacceptable behaviour, your comments will be deleted.
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malamuddy at 14:50 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
When it comes to repeating research to disconfirm the results, Mr Shollenberger seems reluctant at best ... oh.
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Rob Honeycutt at 14:50 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
So... Brandon... You have free access to Cook13, thanks to the generosity of those who jumped into to make the paper open access. You should be able to use any of the data available to craft your own version of the research.
"I believe publishing results is part of the process..."
The results were going to be published either way, with or without the $1600. The money only allowed people like you and many others free access to the paper, without having to purchase it through the journal.
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Brandon Shollenberger at 14:43 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Rob Honeycutt, if that is true, we should be able to define the "consensus" by looking at those categories and their definitions, both of which are provided on this site. That should make it a simple task anyone could do. Why then has nobody done so? Why have people made over a dozen responses to me without bothering to respond to a key point I raised?
As for the money, I believe publishing results is part of the process, especially in peer-reviewed science. We couldn't have much of an examination of this issue if the results were never published. That is, unless you're claiming the only people who examine it are the authors. I'm not sure what you'd say everyone else is doing then.
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Rob Honeycutt at 14:34 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Frankly, Brandon, I would think that if you genuinely believed that there was a critical error in how Cook13 was crafted (or defined "consensus"), you and others would be racing to perform your own research.
Think of the impact! If you did a better study that better defined the terms, then performed the reserach – even at the 10% rate I suggested – and the results showed that public perception is actually correct... That would be huge!
If you were able to get such research published in a quality journal then you would completely change the broad discussion on the climate change issue. You would prove that there actually is serious debate over this issue!
Why would you not want the opportunity to do that?
Unless you just don't believe the results would be different.
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Composer99 at 14:33 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon Shollenberger:
You keep going on about how Cook <i>et al</i> 2013 didn't "define" consensus. Yet you brushed off the simplest explanation, provided by shoyemore upthread.
Why must Cook <i>et al</i> come up with some newfangled definition of consensus when a quite satisfactory definition can be found in, effectively, every dictionary of the English language currently in print? Are people reading science papers now so uneducated that unremarkable words like "consensus" can't be correctly parsed? Should we now begin to quibble over what the meaning of "is" is?
As far as I can see you are setting up a very mobile goalpost indeed if the definition of consensus has to satisfy you but, mysteriously, can't be the already commonly-accepted definition.
(I might also add that the above response is far more thought-out than, frankly, I think your attempts to criticize Cook <i>et al</i> 2013 on this thread or elsewhere deserve.)
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Rob Honeycutt at 14:20 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon@ 24... But the categories are what create the definition within the paper. So, my position still stands. If you think Cook et al did a poor job of crafting the research, by all means, show us how to do it correctly. Being that you're not offering any data or references to substantiate your position I would suggest that performing research of your own is the only way you're going to definitively resolve this issue.
And the $1600 was merely to allow the paper to be open access rather than offer any assistance in the "examination of this consensus." In fact, the $1600 came immediately prior to the paper being published, long after all the actual "examination" occurred.
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Brandon Shollenberger at 14:00 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Tom Curtis, given the accusations of dishonesty (and the conspiratorial ideation displayed) in your comment, I don't think I could respond while abiding by this site's rules.
caerbannog, the amount of time I may have to spend pursuing matters related to climate change doesn't indicate how much time I have to spend on any particular topic. Spending time on one issue forces me not to spend time on other issues, even if the total amount of time I have is "immense." As for getting people to help, I don't think many people I could ask for help would find this sort of project meaningful enough to justify doing.
Even if I could find the time and people to repeat this project's general approach, the burden would be enormous. And it'd say absolutely nothing about the issues I have raised here. One need not do something "right" to show someone else did it wrong.
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Brandon Shollenberger at 13:51 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
KR, my critiques of this paper have included data and measurements as provided by the authors. My critiques have also provided different interpretations of the same data as used by the authors, providing a form of replication. In short, I have done exactly what you say I have not done. The most you could say is my data and replication were not independent, but that is not what you said.
Moreover, you claim my critiques have been limited to redefining things yet ignore the fact a primary point I've raised is that no definition exists for the "consensus." Something cannot be redefined if it has no definition in the first place. Moreover, I haven't offered a definition for the "consensus" so I couldn't possibly be offering a (re)definition of any sort.
actually thoughtful, for us to measure a "consensus," we have to be able to define that "consensus." How else could we possibly know how many people endorse it?
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Brandon Shollenberger at 13:45 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Rob Honeycutt, my posts here have said nothing about the definitions of the categories. As such, the conversation here could not be about the definitions of the categories. The conversation is about the definition of the "consensus" Cook et al repeatedly refer to. As I've pointed out multiple times, this "consensus" has never been defined. There is no reason to avoid that simple issue by changing the subject.
And yes, I do believe the people who donated $1,600 to help the examination of this "consensus" are entitled to know what it actually is. A single sentence to define a key aspect of a paper is hardly a burdensome requirement.
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caerbannog at 13:28 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
<i>"That is especially true given that I am but one person, and you were 24."</i>
When you see skeptics making excuses like "We don't have the time, or we don't have enough people", remember that Anthony Watts likes to brag about how much more traffic, how many more visitors, how many more comments, etc. that his site gets than do sites like skepticalscience.com, realclimate.org etc.
If we are to take Watts at his word, then that would mean that he has access to far more warm bodies to throw at a problem than skepticalscience does. So the above excuses simply don't fly. If Watts and Co were serious, they could easily "crowd-source" an even bigger project than the Cook13 effort.
Furthermore, a quick bit of Googling will confirm that Mr Shollenberger has an *immense* amount of free-time on his hands. The "I don't have enough time or access to enough manpower to organize my own study" simply doesn't cut it, as far as I'm concerned.
A good way to distinguish genuine skeptics from "pseudoskeptics" is that genuine skeptics produce *results* while "pseudoskeptics" produce excuses.
And all we've seen in response to Cook13 is excuses.
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Rob Honeycutt at 13:09 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
"That is especially true given that I am but one person, and you were 24."
Brandon... First off, most of the ratings were done by 12 people, so you're only half right. But John Cook was but one person. He merely enlisted the help of friends. If this is such an important issue that you feel the need to spend dozens of hours arguing the issue, surely you have the time to find a dozen friends who could also spend dozens of hours compiling a similar body of research.
I would even go as far as to suggest that you really don't need to do 12,000 papers. Even 1200 randomly selected papers would give you a statistically significant sampling. Thus, you could perform the experiment with a fraction of the effort that the SkS team contributed to Cook13.
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Rob Honeycutt at 13:00 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Tom @18... Yes. Exactly.
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actually thoughtful at 12:26 PM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
There seems to be some confusion (by exactly one poster) about the purpose of the paper in regards to consensus. Put simply - that there is a consensus has been shown repeatedly in the literature. So you can think of this paper as showing how much consenus there is - is it:
51%?
65%?
80%?
90%?
95%?
Nope!
It is over 97%! (which we actually knew from previous work - but compare to public's perspective).
So the answer to what is the defintion of consensus is kind of the wrong question - the question is how much consensus was there (and of course, if the data showed it - how much *lack* of consensus was there). There is 97% consensus - even more if you weight the papers you look at to after 2000 - then it is over 98%.
Now where are you getting lost?
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KR at 11:45 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon Shollenberger - "...this site has posted many critiques of papers. Why should I refrain from doing the same?"
You should by all means feel free to present a critique.
However: A scientific critique include data, measures, replications of the work with different conclusions, or references to same (features of most rebuttals to 'skeptic' arguments, including those on SkS). You have presented none of the above, just attempts at redefining the various categories to definitions that were not used by the raters or the consulted authors, as far as I can see. In other words, you have presented redefinitions irrelevant to the work you critiqued. You have done nothing that should be taken seriously in a scientific context.
Please, feel free to disagree. But don't expect to be taken seriously until and unless you do some work - rate a thousand or so abstracts (as per Oreskes 2004), present your data, and demonstrate your hypothesis. Until then, I for one will have to regard your 'critiques' as nothing more than empty rhetoric, an attempt to discredit work you dislike - without putting forth the effort for actual science.
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Tom Curtis at 11:10 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Rob @17, I think he would need to include a self rating system. I am sure he could come up with any result he pre-ordains if he crowd sources the rating at WUWT.
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Rob Honeycutt at 11:07 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
And yes, Brandon, we did think it was worth a great deal of effort. The critiques of Doran, Anderegg, Oreskes and others have been that they were small sample sets. We were curious if doing a large sample of papers would change the results.
We put in a lot of hard hours and the results were consistent with previous research.
If you think we did it wrong, then show us how to do it right. Craft your own and get it published.
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Tom Curtis at 11:06 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon @8, I (not Dana) have compared various permuations of the results to see if various criticisms of the paper actually have any impact on the result. For example, assuming a vary large number (50%) of false positives among affirmations only reduces the headline result from 97.2% to 96.2%. Such calculations in no way endorse the arguments being tested. Nor do they endorse the claim that 50% (or whatever) of the affirmations are false positives (or that false positives are only to be found among affirmations). They merely show how robust the results are even if the criticisms are given far more weight than they deserve.
In fact, the nearest I have come to the comparison you make (from memory) is to compare categories 1&2 as a percentage of categories 1,2,5,6,&7 (92.76%). (And no, I am not endorsing the absurd notion that no category 3 rated abstracts actually affirm the consensus.)
The silly thing is that I have to make these calculations. Where the critics of the paper making a serious analysis, they would perform these calculations themselves. Doing so they would conclude that the paper was interesting, and together with other papers analyzing the consensus showed that it is almost certain that papers endorsing the conensus (>50% warming anthropogenic) constitute >90% of all papers discussing the topic, and likely that they constitute >95% of such papers. We might then quibble about whether that is best called a "consensus" or merely an "overwhelming majority".
Serious analysis is, however, not the purpose of those blogs; most certainly not the purpose of your blogs. The purpose of the blogs is found in this graph:
Those attacking this paper, with few exceptions, know the overwhelming disconnect between public perception of the state of scientific opinion and the reality. They also know that that disconnect helps maintain strong political pressure against effective actions to combat climate change. Therefore they are bent on preserving the false perception by the public. They are determined to keep the public decieved for their own political ends. Hence they provide talking points, not analysis, in their attack on Cook et al 2013. Taking note, no doubt of Lincoln's dictum, they set their ambition on fooling enough of the people, enough of the time.
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Rob Honeycutt at 11:02 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
" I'm at a loss as to how this is 'nitpicking the definitions.'"
You don't seem to agree with how the categories were defined. So I'm suggesting you create your own and perform your own survey. If you think the way Cook13 was crafted has unduly influenced the results, then I think everyone would be extremely interested to see you show how. And I mean that genuinely.
"You also felt it was worth a certain amount of money gotten from your readers."
What are you referring to? Are you talking about the money raised so that John could make the paper open access?
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Brandon Shollenberger at 10:21 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Rob Honeycutt, I'm at a loss as to how this is "nitpicking the definitions." You and your associates felt examining a consensus was worth a great deal of effort. You also felt it was worth a certain amount of money gotten from your readers. If examining something was worth that much, surely it is worth stating what that something is.
Glenn Tamblyn, this site has posted many critiques of papers. Why should I refrain from doing the same? As for replication, you guys spent a great deal of time on this study. It is unreasonable to suggest nobody criticize your paper without having spent an equal amount of time working on an issue. That is especially true given that I am but one person, and you were 24.
dana1981, you have suggested exactly that. I've even quoted you as suggesting exactly that. While I can understand you may have forgotten having done so, it is unwise for you to state it so categorically. My statement is fairly easy to verify.
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Tom Curtis at 10:19 AM on 29 May 2013Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Barry @225:
1) To read categories (2), (3), (5), and (6) as consistent (and hence exclusive) even qualitatively, you must take (2) to include all papers that explicitly state anthropogenic factors as a cause of warming, but do not minimize or otherwise indicate the impact is minimal. If you do not, you can have papers rated as both (2) and (5) or (6). Likewise (3) must also be taken as excluding papers which minimize the anthropogenic contribution. Ergo saying that doubling CO2 causes a 1 C no feedback warming, but a 0.5 C warming after feedbacks would preclude an abstract from being classified as (2) or (3), and would pretty much mandate its classification as (5). However, while you can assess the meaning of ratings (2)-(6) in isolation, doing so excludes relevant information. The description of ratings (1) and (7) makes it clear the benchmark for "minimizing" or "not minimizing" is the 50% mark.
On that basis, a phrase like "... anthropogenic factors are the major cause of recent warming" would get the abstract rated as affirming the consensus. In contrast, a phrase like "... anthropogenic factors are a major cause of recent warming" would downgrade it to the neutral bin in that it is possible with that phrasing that natural factors are equal or larger causes.
2) Because the evaluation of abstracts rated as (2) or (3) are based mostly on qualitative terms, it is likely that they will show more false positives than abstracts rated as (1). That does not justify distorting the meaning of the categories to minimize false positives. It is important to avoid false positives (and negatives); but it is more important that the characterization of the consensus be consistent across categories. Therefore arguing from the fact that the qualititive assessments in categories (2) and (3) will lead to false positives to the conclusion that the definition of the consensus differs for those ratings compared to category (1) puts the cart before the horse. The proper way to proceed to to determine the meaning of "affirms the consensus" from the available data from all rating categories and related comments; and if you do the position I am defending naturally follows. You then go on to assess the likely rate of false positives and/or negatives.
Because it is desirable to be conservative in these assessments, the way to avoid false positives is to be cautios in the ratings. Given the difference between the abstract ratings and the self ratings, I do not think there is any doubt that the Cook et al rating team were conservative. While there are likely to be false positives among the ratings, they are far exceded by false negatives. Arguments that the self rating data do not confirm that false negatives exceeded false positives depend essentially on ignoring what we know about the consensus of scientists and publication rates from other sources.
3) Turning to your first example, given only the data you provide, I would indeed have rated the paper as (3), and it would have been a false positive. It would also be an odd example, with the stronger result hidden in the body of the text. It would be rather like a newspaper article leading with "Dog growls at man" and mentioning in the last paragraph "assassination attempt on president". The reason for classifying the abstract as (3) includes the presumption that stronger, more interesting results will be mentioned in the abstract.
4) Turning to your second example, I would have classified it as neutral (4); and did so before I read the follow on part of the sentence.
5) Instead of checking category results, try doing the self rating excercise for 100 plus papers and check your level of agreement on endorsements with the Cook et al ratings. I am up to 35 so far, with complete agreement using my interpretation of what it means to confirm the consensus. I know from examples presented elsewhere that there are some abstract ratings I disagree with; but given that 12,000 abstracts were rated, it is unsurprising that there are some errors. You cannot check the validity of the rating system by picking out one or two errors; but only by rating a significant sample.
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:14 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
I'm kind of thinking this is going to end up being like all the hockey stick graphs. Lots of complaining about methods and data and such. But never, ever, will the "skeptics" do their own research on this one, simply because their results would never support their preferred conclusions. And that is what makes them fake skeptics.
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dana1981 at 10:02 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
I've never suggested comparing Categories 6+7 with 1. Category 7 is comparable to 1, and 6+7 are comparable to 1+2.
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Glenn Tamblyn at 09:40 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon, let me second Rob's suggestion
Cook et al 2013 is a scientific paper. The time honoured method of critiquing or checking a piece of science is through replication. Someone seeks to replicate the earlier work. All other approachs, comments on blogs, self appointed 'auditors' etc are just a farce by comparison.Replicate the study Brandon. Or even better, design your own study method and go for it.
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scaddenp at 09:37 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William, and yet the modellers have done what you suggest as the links provided show, and funnily enough do just as you propose as reading the papers would show you. "The appropriate balance" being of course the forcing set used which each model run explicitly shows you. "I would not automatically assume things are done correctly" - well good, but have you bothered to read how in fact it was done? The fact that you get similar results from completely different models, working in independent groups worldwide should at least suggest that maybe they are on track. Are you looking for the truth or looking for a rationalisation for inaction? If the former, then we are here to help - quote science papers in discussion though. If the later, then I would suspect ideological problems with proposed solution. Reality v. ideology. Hmm.
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Rob Honeycutt at 09:27 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon... Instead of nitpicking the definitions (I would hold that no matter how Cook13 had defined it, you would still be nitpicking) why not write your own categories, do your own research and see what results you get?
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Rob Honeycutt at 09:24 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon... You might note there is nowhere in Cook13 where it states that only 10 papers out of 12,000 reject AGW. That would be as equally an unsupportable statement as saying only 65 papers endorse AGW.
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Brandon Shollenberger at 09:22 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
shoyemore, I was less clear than I should have been. The definition I'm referring to is not the definition of the word "consensus," but rather, the definition of the specific "consensus" being examined by Cook et al.
John Hartz, given I believe this issue is an important one, that could only serve to encourage me. I would like discussion to continue.
dana1981, you yourself have suggested comparing categories 6 and 7 with category 1. Given category 6 has as much (or rather, as little) quantification as category 5, what makes my inclusion of category 5 so much more illogical? Why should it be okay to include category 6 but not category 5?
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Tom Dayton at 09:17 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William Haas, the construction of the models is described in great detail in the appropriate places that you easily can find by following the provided links and merely clicking around a bit. Your extreme skepticism is unconvincing since it is based on your ignorance that is due purely to your failure to bother reading.
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dana1981 at 09:01 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon, there are several ways your argument could be interpreted since frankly it's totally illogical, comparing every single implicit and explicit rejection/minimization (Categories 5-7) to explicit endorsements with quantification (Category 1). If you'd prefer, we can describe it as a misrepresentation of our survey, since you're comparing incomparable categories.
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rockytom at 09:00 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Rob, the reason "they" don't do the research is that "they" can't substantiate "their" comments by factual information that research would provide. It is enough for the prevaricators and deniers to state an opinion. Facts are not important!
Kudos to John and the Team!
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William Haas at 08:37 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
Dikran Marsupial, 1850 to 2012 is much more challenging because of the changes in direction. To be of any value such simulations have to be appropriated calibrated and contain the appropriate balance of human caused and natural factors. A simple model has been used but how has it been calibrated with reality. I would not automatically assume that things are done correctly. In quality, the projections do not look much like what has been happening over the past century and a half.
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John Hartz at 08:34 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon:
As they say, "If the shoe fits, wear it."
BTW, The more comments you post, the more likely that John Cook will write a sequel.
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Rob Honeycutt at 08:27 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon... You know, with the amount of time you've spent trying to discredit Cook13 you could have actually done something useful and started up your own research project to see if you can replicate Cook13. You know, that would be the "skeptical" thing to do.
My only takeaway, at this point, can be that you folks don't really believe the position you're putting forth. It seems the only thing that is important to you is to "manufacture doubt" (to borrow a phrase) rather than test the ideas you have.
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scaddenp at 08:05 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William, you are asking the wrong question. Try "do models have skill?"
See the FAQ at Realclimate for detail on this.
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shoyemore at 07:52 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
Brandon #2,
What is wrong with the dictionary definition?:
1. majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.
2. general agreement or concord; harmony.
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tcflood at 07:45 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
In order to better understand this paper, I need to ask a couple of low-level questions.
How does a “simple” climate model give uncertainties that are more meaningful than a more complex model?
They say that a certain amount of uncertainty comes from climate sensitivity. I thought CS came from the calculation rather than being an input parameter?
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Brandon Shollenberger at 07:22 AM on 29 May 2013The 5 characteristics of global warming consensus denial
This post says:
This technique of unrealistic expectations was illustrated in another blog post claiming that only papers which quantify the human contribution to global warming count as part of the consensus.
Referring to a post which quotes arguments I have made. As I am a target of this criticism, I feel I am obliged to respond. My response is twofold. 1) Where in that post, or anywhere else, is it claimed "only papers which quantify the human contribution to global warming count as part of the consensus"? As far as I can tell, that post never defines the consensus. It merely (and accurately) says:
When stripped down to the bare truth, the actual number of studies in the Cook sampling that can be said to endorse the position that human activity is responsible for most of the experienced global warming is — get ready for this (drum roll …) — sixty-five.
That doesn't say only 65 endorse the "consensus." It says only 65 endorse a particular position. That particular position may or may not be the "consensus."
2) There is no clear, much less explicit, definition of "consensus" in the Cook et al paper. None was provided on Skeptical Science either. Obama's tweet about this paper, which Skeptical Science has used for publicity, describes the consensus found by this paper as something it could not possibly be. It's cheeky to criticize people for using a different criterion for the "consensus" when you never bothered to provide one of your own.
Unless or until a clear definition for the "consensus" is provided, it is silly to criticize people for using a different one.
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Dikran Marsupial at 05:48 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William Haas The IPCC already did pretty much that, for example the
20c3m experiments are forced with historical green house gas forcing as well as the time varying ozone, sulfate, volcanic aerosols, and solar output for the 1900-2000 period. This analysis uses 20th century experiments from 10 models. The B1, A1B and A2 experiments are forced with a predicted green house gas forcing scenario for the 2000-2100 period. (www)
so we have the 1900-2000 period to judge the model's performance. IMHO it is hubris to think that the worlds leading climate modellers didn't think to do this, and hubris2 not to bother checking first before posting.
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DSL at 05:36 AM on 29 May 2013Uncertainty no excuse for procrastinating on climate change
William, is Jones et al. 2013 not good enough?
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