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Comments 51501 to 51550:
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ranyl at 20:51 PM on 20 November 2012Wigley and Santer Find the IPCC is too Conservative on AGW
It is interesting that the natural forcing plus all human forcings underpredicts warming 69.1% of the time, figure 7b, yet just human forcings alone underpredict only 60.9% of the time, yet in graph 6 it seems the dashed only human forcing line is nearly always greater than observations; presume it must have a wider variance to account for this 60% underestimation. Wonder what CS resulted in the most accurate models over the range of aerosol uncertainities with natural variation incorporated, as if ~70% models underpredict warming to 2005, then that is suggestive of a missed warming influence or a higher CS is needed which might be in keeping with other recent CS results. Seems that CS is more and more likely to be higher especially as SO2 emissions have increased since China and India industrial revolutions and brown clouds have been shading the surface as well (despite increasing overall atmospheric energy at altitude), meaning the surface temperature records over Asis will have been reduced considerably in the last 20 years or so. It is also sobering that if humnan aersols are lost from the atmosphere, that adds most likely another 1.1W to the warming influence, add in the self expanding albedo effect forcing now kicking in, and the lagged warming due oceanic mixing, then a doubling of the current warming force seems possible within 5-10years if fossil fuels are not used anymore. And the current forcing is driving a climatic warmign at a rate ~3x greater than found in the geological time record. So if stopped all emissions today, that would mean from 2020 to 2050 (as GHG in the atmosphere woudl not drop at all, due to permafrost melt and very slow drawdown) there should be a rate of warming of ~0.3C or more. Add in that natural variation in terms of sun and El Nino have tended to cooling in the last 10 years, thne is highly likely that the earth shoudl also experience some natural warming as well. That leaves us with ~1.8C above pre-industrial by 2050 by stopping all emissions now. As GHG after that are likely to increase due to eco-system distress and further permafrost releases and the need for a massive carbon sequestration becomes urgent. Adaptating to 1.8C alone considering the changes already being seen is going to take a mass effort by everyone in the same direction. Leaves a carbon budget of zero, therefore every ounce of carbon from now on is another ounce that needs to be removed from the atmosphere by 2050-2100, in-order not to slip beyond the limits of the adaptative capacity of our current civilization. How much carbon are you prepared to gamble? 400ppm? Immediate goal 350ppm 2100? Long term target. And as climate change becomes the most likely threat to the whole civilization we still fight over oil and aren't prepared to even give up the mobile phone. The scale of transformation needed is such that in this effort to prevent irrational amounts of global warming occuring whilst creating a sustainable future needs everyone to come together rather than waging war or hoping for divine intervention as we are now. -
Kevin C at 20:06 PM on 20 November 2012Wigley and Santer Find the IPCC is too Conservative on AGW
One of the key results the paper reinforces (although it has been stated often enough before, e.g. Hansen & Sato 2011), is the 20th century climate creates a strong dependence between the possible values of aerosol forcing and transient climate response. I'm currently playing with a two box model, and using Hansen's (unadjusted) aerosol forcing to fit 20thC climate, I get a TCR of about 1.65C. If I set the aerosol forcing to zero, the TCR drops right down to 0.6C. If you know the aerosol forcing, 20thC climate gives you TCR. If you know TCR, 20thC climate gives you aerosol forcing. As JCH has commented at Tamino's and Curry's, if the climate skeptics were joining the dots they would "sell natural variation; buy aerosols". -
perseus at 18:36 PM on 20 November 2012Wigley and Santer Find the IPCC is too Conservative on AGW
"Some of these criticisms stem from a failure to understand that the term "very likely" has a specific numerical definition, meaning greater than 90% probability." Let's hope the IPCC accept this evidence to upgrade their level of confidence. Uncertainty fuels the Denier community, confuses the public, and provides the excuse for inaction. -
Doug Hutcheson at 17:34 PM on 20 November 20122012 SkS Bi-Weekly News Roundup #1
Flakmeister, that's precisely our problem. The world we live in is dominated by the MROMI equation, where M = Money. Money knows no ethics; profit knows no social justice. Unless we can legislate in ways that make the Fossil Fuel MROMI equation unattractive, we will be condemned to sit on the sidelines of history, wringing our hands and saying "Told you so!", while watching our planet go to hell in a handbasket. Corn-to-ethanol is a perfect example of blinkered vision. -
dana1981 at 15:00 PM on 20 November 2012Wigley and Santer Find the IPCC is too Conservative on AGW
Thanks adelady - 7 papers actually! If you click the link in the final paragraph, it goes to my discussion of the other 6. -
adelady at 14:51 PM on 20 November 2012Wigley and Santer Find the IPCC is too Conservative on AGW
This is worth saving for reference. I know I've often had the 'feeling' that I've seen evidence that the ghg contribution was >100% of temperature change, but I've never been able to remember why or who said what or how it works. Having a single paper focused on precisely that issue is what I didn't know I was waiting for. Nicely done, dana, btw. -
Ken in Oz at 08:09 AM on 20 November 2012New research from last week 46/2012
Curious about the Global Energy Balance paper. It appears to be a 'snapshot' that isn't about following trends. Is it likely to be a fixed point for future reference? Whilst the way energy moves around within atmosphere and ocean have lots of room for uncertainties, the actual in and out of energy at Top of Atmosphere seems to me to be the defining measure of GHG contributions to warming. CERES and SORCE satellite data for Top of Atmosphere - any pointers to discussion of their limitations and their results, like graphs that show the energy out compared to energy in ie mapping and quantifying the actual observed changes to energy balance at TOA? -
Bernard J. at 07:24 AM on 20 November 2012It's El Niño
As other have noted above it's been directly pointed out to Tisdale by many people (including me) that his argument breaks the first law of thermodynamics. He always blathers around the point but never addresses it properly. Although most would dismiss his pseudoscience as preposterous, at some point it may actually be worth a coda to formalise rebuttal of his nonsense. It's a sad state of affairs though that it might have to go to that extent... but then, that describes just about all denialism. -
Tristan at 03:32 AM on 20 November 2012It's El Niño
I find it strange behaviour to insist anything that has no established science behind it. The thing I took from his video was merely how certain of his conclusion he was. -
Flakmeister at 02:44 AM on 20 November 20122012 SkS Bi-Weekly News Roundup #1
Re: Peak oil Sorry Peak oil is very simple: it is the point where extraction rate of crude oil is maximal. We have been on a plateau for 8 years running. Do not be fooled by claims based on "All Liquids", NGL and "refinery gains" are not oil, bio-fuels with a lousy EROEI are not oil. On a net BTU basis, liquid fuels are basically flat over the past 8 years... The peak is ultimately geologic in nature, that does not mean that economics or political events are not important. The upside of the Hubbert curve was driven by geology, however, the shape of the plateau and downside will be driven by economics.... New reserves such as tight oil and gas will not result in a significant increase in global production. To put the Bakken into perspective, if one doubled the latest USGS estimate of recoverable oil to ~60 billion barrels, it would change the worlds proven and probable reserves by about 5%.... Also do not become overly enamoured of EROEI arguments, it is a question of profiting from BTU arbitrage. High value liquid fuels produced by utilizing lower cost NG and coal will continue as long as a profit is to be made. Hence, my referring to the US Corn-to-ethanol industry as our very own version of the Easter Island logging industry.... -
Composer99 at 01:23 AM on 20 November 2012New research from last week 46/2012
Bertrand Russell is attributed with the comment "the mark of a civilized man is the ability to read a column of numbers and weep" (although my brief researches did not find a conclusive source of him stating such a thing). The graphic derived from Wild et al (2012) showing the TOA and surface energy budgets is surely worth shedding tears. -
Rob Painting at 00:39 AM on 20 November 2012It's El Niño
Tristan - Tisdale replied basically insisting La Nina is responsible for ocean warming. Colour me unimpressed. La Nina is an interval when the Earth sees a net gain in energy, and El Nino a net loss, but this isn't some novel observation, I've discussed this, for instance, in this SkS post: Search For 'Missing Heat' Confirms More Global Warming 'In The Pipeline'. See Figure 3 and the associated heading discussion. More importantly The ENSO-related energy fluxes balance out to zero in the long-term. If they didn't (as Tisdale seems to think) the planet would go on warming indefinitely. It's the same problem those Scafetta climastrology papers have - not only do they have to match recent observations, they also have to match with older observations - and that's where they quickly run aground. Increased levels of greenhouse gases heat the ocean, by lowering the thermal gradient in the thin cool skin layer of the surface. This reduces the amount of heat lost (from sunlight) to the (typically) cooler atmosphere, and the oceans warm as a consequence. That's why there is such a striking correlation between atmospheric carbon dioxide and temperature (aka ocean heat content) in the ice core reconstructions.
Vostok ice core records for carbon dioxide concentration (Petit 2000) and temperature change (Barnola 2003)
However, ocean heat can indeed vary dramatically in the short-term due to changes in aerosols, and especially cloud cover, in the atmosphere (which alters the amount of sunlight heating the surface ocean). So if you just look at the data, without a proper statistical analysis (as Tisdale is prone to), you can convince yourself of anything.
If Tisdale's misunderstandings gain any traction, we'll get around to debunking it, but it's not a priority at the moment.
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gws at 00:37 AM on 20 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
correction the last arctic stratospheric ozone loss episode occurred not 2011/2012 as I said above, but spring 2011 Nature article here -
chriskoz at 23:37 PM on 19 November 2012New research from last week 46/2012
A study linking average T with hapiness... If we agree with them that such subjective quality can be globaly quantified somehow (and methods not biased by the preconceived outcome), then we can say that people are well adapted to the average Holocene conditions. Maybe some athropologists can even suggest the Holocene temps must have always been around 13.9, because that is what "feels good". Any departures from that value (like little ice age or current warming) were not prolonged enough to kick in come psychological conditioning. It would be interesting to speculate how long such adaptation process takes. No doubt more than couple centuries for the "planned" 2K temp rise. Our decendants in say 2200-2300 (assuming the civilisation survives) will probably still be talking legends how their ancestors in XX/XXI century ruined the planet by ignoring/denying most sustainability principles. But at some point in the future, they would forget it and go with their own business, because 15.9 degrees is "fine". -
chriskoz at 22:47 PM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT@17, Indeed, I'm just disgusted by learning from wikipeadia about Schmitt saying in 2009 Heartland conference that "climate change is a stalking horse for Nazism". He is very low on the ladder of denial, lower than anyone I know of, who holds a climate-related degree (geology in this case). This is OT, but I kinda wonder if being an astronaut increases the predisposition for denialism: we have a recent sample of active denialism by retired NASA astronauts and now we have Schmitt from that group, who has virtually hit the bottom of denial... What would a cognitive psychologist say about it? -
Kayell at 20:36 PM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
Dikran says: "If you want people to discuss Tisdales argument then (...) explain it in detail yourself (...)" Exactly. I haven't yet presented it. [snip]Moderator Response: [Dikran Maruspial] You have been asked to present the argument, so please stop complaining about the tone of the discussion and present it so that we can have a productive discussion. I have snipped the remainder of your post so as not to distract further from discussion the science, if you want a positive reception then it is straightforward, stick to the science, regardless of perceived provocation. -
Kayell at 20:27 PM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
KR says: "By all means, please do." Thanks. That's all I'm asking for. I will. It'll take me more than five minutes though, and that's all I have to spare right now. So later.Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] We will be patient, please do take time to present the argument carefully. I would recommend presenting it as a set of numbered steps that form the logical chain of the argument, I have found that works well in the past as then counter arguments can be discussed for each link in the chain separately in detail. -
jbyrd at 19:31 PM on 19 November 20122012 SkS Bi-Weekly News Roundup #2
I've been a regular visitor to this site for about six months, and feel that it represents generally a well considered, objective point of view, but it (the site itself and the community surrounding it), seems to me to fail (along with the so-called anti AGCW people, or deniers, or whatever their rank is) to admit to itself (themselves?, theirselves?) both the root and the nature of the problem. Of course, everbody knows (al la Joe Dirt) that the root of the problem is population. Likewise, the cause is the law?, propensity?, generally observed phenomena?, that life wants to perpetuate itself, and the best way to do that appears to be, to life in general, by the most efficient way possible. And therein lies the rub. Efficient for me (I live in deep southeastern Louisiana) is about $600-1000 a month. For most of my friends, as much as they can make, regardless of any convictions or scruples, moral or ethical. For the banana spiders that used to spin webs by the thousands (literally) across the road leading to my house, the rarely reached protection afforded by the galvanized roof over my workshed from the nightly! passes of airplanes spraying insecticide for fear of swine flu mosguitos. (Last years death toll in La., maybe 10: from whatever, pick one, cars, cars and cell phones, sugar, ad nauseum.} -
Tristan at 19:06 PM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
For anyone interested, the discussion of the proposed mechanism starts at about 29:15. -
Rob Painting at 16:42 PM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
Kayell/Kristian - I said I'd stay out of this, but I've changed my mind. Bob Tisdale himself is unable to explain his hypothesis, so maybe you can have a shot at it? No one here is likely to waste one and a half hours watching his videos, so please explain to us what you find so compelling. -
It's El Niño
Kayell / Kristian - If you feel I have incorrectly understood Tisdale's argument, perhaps you could (clearly) state what you feel his argument is? Or in some other fashion indicate what interpretive error you think has been made? ...without a statement of where you think the argument stands, it's absurd to claim that I (and others) have not addressed it. On my part, I believe I have addressed Tisdale's unsupported, and contradicted by evidence, hypotheses. Since you feel he's made a good argument, it falls upon you to state what that is, and why the various disagreements are (potentially) not valid. Barring that, I would (IMO) consider your posts so far on this thread to be assertions without evidence. "Rather I would prefer presenting the argument." By all means, please do. -
Kayell at 15:48 PM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
Philippe Chantreau and KR, Since people here so far haven't adressed the actual argument at all, only their strawman versions of it, I see no reason spending time answering their/your appararent objections. Rather I would prefer presenting the argument. Dikran, are you seriously asking me to answer all these 'objections' to the argument before I actually describe the argument to you? That's a strange way of advancing a discussion ...Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Kayell, I am telling you to avoid rhetoric and instead stick to the science. If you want people to discuss Tisdales argument then either explain it in detail yourself, or provide a link to somewhere that does. The first law of thermodynamics is a perfectly good explanation of why Tisdales argument is wrong. If you have an objection then present it. If you continue to avoid discussing the science you will be making it clear that you are not interested in the answer to your questions and are merely trolling. The ball is in your court, I suggest you return it. -
Bert from Eltham at 14:45 PM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
My dear old dad told me years ago, 'always remember son it is the incorruptible man who has the highest price! The rest of us settle for what we can get. I urge you to hold out for the best price! That way you remain pure! Bert -
JoeT at 14:17 PM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Thanks to all who responded. It's much clearer now what's going on. Also, to Doug H, I have to say it was enormously disappointing to see Harrison Schmitt (they misspelled his name in the credits, but correctly when he was speaking) as the representative of the Heartland Institute. Schmitt of course is one of last people --- and the only scientist -- to walk on the moon. Years ago, we had a nice conversation about mining He3 on the moon as fuel for a fusion reactor. Now it's just sad to see him this way. -
Doug Hutcheson at 13:52 PM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
I see Harrison Schmidt of Heartland is keeping the faith. What annoys me about humanity is that people equate the honorific 'Dr.' with infallibility. I know many PhDs publish here, but none of them asks us to believe them as a matter of faith: they ask us to look at the data and decide for ourselves. They also admit when they don't know, or when they are found to be wrong. I don't trust anyone who claims to be infallible. -
Doug Hutcheson at 13:17 PM on 19 November 20122012 SkS Weekly Digest #46
was Superstorm Sandy a "Balck Swan" event
sarc I presume we are not talking about a Balkan Swan, which turns up quite a different set of links /sarc. Investopedia defines a Black Swan event asAn event or occurrence that deviates beyond what is normally expected of a situation and that would be extremely difficult to predict.
If that definition is acceptable, I would say Sandy was not a Black Swan event: any fool with the climate data now available should have been able to predict that such a storm was coming sometime. Equally, a devastating earthquake that dumps much of California into the Pacific is expected some day, so it also would not be a Black Swan. Failure to accept the inevitability of an event the data predicts does not make it a Black Swan, it makes the observer pathalogically stupid. -
It's El Niño
Kayell / Kristian - I believe I have discussed Tisdale's arguments in some detail. I would be interested in any comments you might have on the lack of statistical significance of his "step" time periods, the positive (increasing energy) TOA balance that directly contradicts his ENSO attribution of global warming, the fact that sea surface temperatures (SST's) he argues from are actually included in both the NINO3.4 index and the MEI, etc. Well? What processes does Tisdale point to, processes that for some reason have changed from their many 10's of thousands of years history to suddenly warm the earth over the last 150? You know, evidence? Please point to data supporting your assertions, as per the opening post. (I'm afraid I will not take hand-waving very seriously...) -
Philippe Chantreau at 10:33 AM on 19 November 20122012 SkS Bi-Weekly News Roundup #2
"We have found a way to base our market economy on stealing from the future." Ironically, that's the core of any process leading to market crashes. The stock market is full of semi-parasitic actors who are always looking for ways to create money out of thin air and change some of it into cold hard cash that they can pocket now. That's what happened in 1929 and in 2008 as well. Their schemes are always based on the future value of some item of exchange and assume that value to continue increasing a certain way. They promote gambling on these future values and cash in on the gambling activity. Some will try to say this is oversimplified but, in fact, that is exactly what happened, and it is best described as "stealing from the future." It has the very perverse effect of making the entire world play with and even spend money that does not yet exist and may or may not come into existence. -
Philippe Chantreau at 10:15 AM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
Kayell, why don't you start by adressing the robust, cohesive relevant critics to the very premise of that argument that have already been presented above by various contributors? That would be a necessary first step. Also, keep in mind that here we concern ourselves with scientific arguments that are supported by peer-reviewed scientific litterature; Tisdale's piece not only doesn't fit that description but also betrays a lack of familiarity with the relevant scientific litterature by its author. There is no doubt that the "argument" will gain traction among those with little scientific literacy on the subject, especially if they're frantically looking for any old useable bit to confirm what they want to believe. It doesn't make it better than any other argument that particular public will buy. -
Daniel Bailey at 08:50 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Additionally, IIRC, the stratosphere over the Arctic is closer to sea level than that over the Antarctic. This is primarily due to the fact that the Arctic is essentially all at sea level while Antarctica is a monolithic ice cube resting on bedrock, immersed in a warming saltwater bath. Thus, the Arctic gets heat imported to it via the oceans (some 40% of sea ice melt there is via bottom melt). Due to its altitude, Antarctica gets no such pipeline of energy delivered to it. The accumulation zone on Antarctica is too high for melt ponds to form, while melt-ponding on the Arctic sea ice helps deliver some 18-20% more energy into the ocean below the ice, also helping warm that body of water indirectly. -
Bob Loblaw at 08:35 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT: Note that the polar ozone holes develop in the spring, when sunlight is returning to an area that has spent months in darkness. The chemical reactions are largely photo-driven [primarily UV light], after a build-up of certain molecules that don't persist in sunlight. As soon as UV radiation is available again, the reactions start and ozone is rapidly consumed. The long polar night leads to low temperatures in general - the polar regions lose IR radiation to space, and the only sources of radiation to counteract that loss will be either thermal energy stored in the system locally - atmospheric, or in the ice/land (south) or ice/ocean (north)- or energy brought in from sub-polar areas (atmospheric or ocean currents). If locally-stored energy is lost to space, the system has to cool. If energy brought in from sub-polar regions is not enough, cooling will continue. Thus, the antarctic represents a system where other energy sources can't counterbalance the IR losses as well as in the arctic, so the antarctic gets colder. Both regions exhibit strong temperature inversions near the surface (i.e., coldest at the surface, instead of coldest at the top of the troposphere), and the stratosphere is not immune to this pattern. As the surface and lower troposphere cool, so will the stratosphere. After all, the normal stratospheric heating by UV absorption (the reason the stratosphere exists in general) isn't happening in the polar night. To put it simply, the stratosphere isn't independent of the surface. -
vrooomie at 08:31 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
gws, as a geologist, I appreciate your simple, but clear and concise, explanations of this phenomenon. The NP and SP (and by extension the NH and the SH) are really two quite different animals, for all the reasons you list. Another one to keep in mind is that the S. polar summer maximum is at perihelion, whereas the N. polar summer is at aphelion. Were it not for that fact, the summers in the desert SW of the US would be unbearable. It's all quite complex, and deniers rarely admit as much, which just clouds the water...so to speak! -
gws at 08:24 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT Stratospheric T at high latitudes is determined by a stratospheric circulation called the polar vortex. It forms each winter over the respective pole. Over Antartica, the vortex is strong as its structure remains nearly undisturbed by undulations at lower levels in the atmosphere. The shape of the Antarctic continent aids in this setup as the vortex takes on a size and form similar to the continent below it. Once formed, it isolates the polar stratospheric air mass from air at lower latitudes and it progressively cools in the dark winter. In the northern hemisphere, undulations (waves) below the stratosphere driven by temperature differences and geography of the surrounding landmasses prevent a stable vortex formation. The vortex usually remains intact only for a few days before air from lower latitudes mixes in again. Therefore, the Artic stratosphere is usually warmer and an "ozone hole" rarely forms. Stable Artic vortices do, however, form, such as in winter 1997/98 and recently in 2011/12, when drastic Artic stratospheric ozone losses occurred as a result. -
JoeT at 06:31 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Sphaerica, Good explanations. Thanks. I'm almost there. One last thing will clinch it for me. You explained very well why the ice in Antarctica is colder than the Arctic. However, why is the stratosphere over the Antarctic colder than the stratosphere over the Arctic? -
Kayell at 06:11 AM on 19 November 2012It's El Niño
Frankly, I would think you would pounce on the opportunity to rip this particular ’skeptical’ argument apart, to present a clinical, blow-by-blow refutation of it. It is (still in MY opinion, though) the most robust, cohesive skeptical argument AGAINST an anthropogenic and FOR a natural cause of global warming out there. And it’s getting more and more traction amongst ’the skeptical crowd’. So it is indeed a real, important and relevant skeptical argument. It is an easy to grasp argument, mostly descriptive actually, and does not make use of any models or sets of novel assumptions, only available data. The physical mechanisms at work and their effects are readily observable through space and time and well known and described in the geophysical literature. In a way the argument explains itself once you understand the processes at hand and simply track the energy through the Earth system by looking at the various sets of data. If you’ll let me, I would be happy to give you a compendious summary of the argument.Moderator Response: [DB] As noted by Phippe and KR below, the skeptical thing to do would be to first address those questions already put to you on this thread. Those genuinely interested in advancing the scientific understanding should feel that to be an imperative. -
Bob Lacatena at 04:03 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT, Please note that this geographic and mechanical difference in the two systems (ocean surrounded by land in the north, land surrounded by ocean in the south) are at the core of the above post (i.e. the apples/oranges aspect of the whole thing). The differences are very dramatic and important. -
Doug Bostrom at 03:48 AM on 19 November 2012Renewables can't provide baseload power
The island of Hawaii used to obtain much of its electricity as a byproduct of sugar cane agriculture, with crushed cane (bagasse) burned as a fuel source. With the demise of sugar cane the cane processing plants were closed and generation moved for a period of time to the ultra-primitive combustion of bunker oil. So with the advent of PV, wind and geothermal power Hawaii is clawing its way back to replace the biofueled generation it used to enjoy, thereby eliminating the wretched compromise of fossil hydocarbons. My brother is just now having a 9.5kW array placed on his roof. There's a third party involved that finances this installation and sells electricity to Helco. Customers still pay a bill but it's vastly less than before; even with fairly scrupulous attention to waste and solar DHW my brother's electric bill has typically hovered around $400/month. Electricity rates would have been going down on Hawaii thanks to all the modern generation capacity being installed but the remaining paleolithic combustion systems are drastically affected by bunker fuel costs, which have skyrocketed thus erasing savings. There's a lesson for all of us in that. The Big Island's Hawaiian Electric Company (known to locals as "Helco") publishes quite a bit of information about integrating modernized power generation with the old gear, for the curious. -
Bob Lacatena at 03:45 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT, It's a little more complicated than that. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but... First, yes, it is colder at the South Pole, because Antarctica is a land mass with mountains, surrounded by ocean. The ice is piled on top of this land (snowfall there accumulates), and as you know temperature decreases with altitude. Thus, much of the ice there has no chance of melting, because even under the 24-hour summer sun, it doesn't get above freezing. By contrast, the Arctic is an ocean surrounded (for the most part) by land. As such, snowfall accumulates in the winter, but being at sea level it has the chance to melt back (more or less) in summer. At the same time, in summer the land masses around the Arctic heat and cause weather systems that push north. The oceans around Antarctica cause an entirely different (and more moderated) dynamic. This major difference in geography results in drastically different mechanics at the two locations, and much lower temperatures in Antarctica, which allows polar stratospheric clouds to form, which help to catalyze ozone depletion. My comment about Antarctica being a "closed system" was simply an analogy to the fact that the stronger polar vortex in the south (a result of the difference in land masses and temperatures) helps to contain things (temperatures, CFCs) over Antarctica in contrast to the Arctic, where the more moderated temperatures also allow for more of an exchange of air masses (what become winter storms for those in North America and Europe, but have the equal-and-opposite reaction of injecting warmer air into the Arctic itself). As far as CFCs being emitted in the north... I can't find a reference, but I would doubt that is much of a factor. Like CO2, things released into the air are going to wind up, over time, dispersing fairly evenly. What is of more importance is the creation of the right conditions (very cold temperatures and polar stratospheric clouds in the Antarctic) to allow CFCs to do their dirty work. -
JoeT at 03:06 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Sphaerica, I'm not following your argument. Most of the CFCs were released in the north, so if Antarctica is a closed system, why is there an ozone hole in the south? A quick internet search to my question comes up with an answer that CFC affects ozone at very low temperature and a larger ozone hole is over Antarctica because it is colder there. The question then is moved to -- why is it colder to begin with? It looks like a positive feedback system would also be set up --- if it starts out colder, then the CFCs destroy more ozone. And since ozone is responsible for making the stratosphere warmer than the troposphere, the extra cold would have an even bigger effect. Sooooooo ---- why is the south pole colder to begin with? -
Tenney Naumer at 01:08 AM on 19 November 2012Skeptical Science now an Android app
OK, first off, I am an old dog trying new tricks and thought I should finally download the app using a barcode scanner. The link to Droid apps doesn't work, but this link will: http://www.androidzoom.com/android_applications/qr+scanner I decided to download the QuickMark app. Doing this requires logging in with your Google or facebook account. OK, I used my facebook account. After that, it was very easy, and I soon realized that I didn't need to "expand" the barcode on this page. My phone squawked at me when it captured the barcode, which made it easier somehow. I think the app works very well! -
Will MacKinnon at 00:38 AM on 19 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Although the increases in Antarctic ice maximums in no way balances the Arctic ice minimums, a visual study of the ice area/extent graphs does appear to show a link between these two events. Antarctic maximums in 2007 and 2012 correspond (in kind if not extent) with Arctic minimums. Recent explanations of Antarctic maximums ignore this link. Until until a physical link or a statistical anomaly can be shown this will continue to be a crutch for climate miss-informers (I don't believe there is such a thing as an informed skeptic!). Looking at the graphs I believe that there is a link that is not understood at present. -
michael sweet at 23:26 PM on 18 November 2012Renewables can't provide baseload power
The Los Angeles Times had this newspaper article in November 2012 discussing solar power in Hawaii. They have installed a lot of solar in Hawaii since their electricity is very expensive. The island of Hawaii gets as much as 44% of power from solar and the other islands get a lot of power from the sun. They had a target of 40% solar by 2030 and have already achieved that!! With rapid building of solar there are some problems. Each island has a separate grid. Since the grids are so small, it is hard to balance power output. A single big thunderstorm can significantly affect power generation. They have issues of how much to pay for solar power. They are looking at running power lines to connect the islands together to increase grid size. It appears that Hawaii will be an experimental site looking at large scale solar power production. They will have to solve the problems and the rest of us will be able to watch and learn. If anyone sees a technical article on Hawaii solar post a link here. -
Peter Mogensen at 20:15 PM on 18 November 20122012 SkS Bi-Weekly News Roundup #2
I see no hope that cap-and-trade is going to solve anything. It haven't produced any results for 15 years but ending up as a speculation object. We have found a way to base our market economy on stealing from the future. Until the market reflects the true cost (including that to future generations) the market will only work against a solution, not towards it ... until it's too late. The only viable solution is (as James Hansen suggests) a 100% revenue neutral carbon tax with public dividend. Preferably the tax should be imposed on the source of fossil fuels: Where it's pulled from the ground. That should be easier to administer and the effect will ripple through the marked. ALSO: As opposed to cap-and-trade this can be put into place without initially global agreement. Simply impose penalty taxes on goods from countries without such a system. Of course it would be most effective if the US and the EU did this together, but we won't need China and India to do the same thing. It should pay of for them to do it simply to (re)gain access to our markets. It's important that this tax is revenue neutral. If it doesn't go 100% back to the public any part of it can only be spent to make it obsolete - like investing in carbon-free infrastructure. -
Bob Loblaw at 11:08 AM on 18 November 2012Heat from the Earth’s interior does not control climate
Martin @25: It is wrong to call all that "solar", the 238.5 number you provide must be IR losses to space, not solar. When it comes to climate change, you need to focus on radiation change. The net IR change related to doubling CO2 is about 4 W/m^2. How much do you think the 0.09 W/m^2 geothermal heat flux has changed? How important is that compared to 4? -
Bob Lacatena at 10:52 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT, In effect, part of what made Hurricane Sandy into what it was is the same thing that is minimizing ozone depletion in the north. -
Bob Lacatena at 10:51 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
JoeT, There is greater air exchange between the pole and mid-latitudes in the North Pole than the South, I think primarily because of the differences in land masses. The end result is that ozone depletion is greater at the South Pole (the southern polar vortex creates more of a closed system over the South Pole). -
bill4344 at 10:26 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
+1 on wanting to see more discussion of why the temp gradient would be increasing - and speeding up winds - in the SH, but decreasing - and causing the giant looping whorls in the jet-stream - in the NH. My assumptions are similar to mercpl's, but I had also believed the Antarctic ozone hole was slowly but significantly repairing. Given that in NH it's generally pointed out that the equatorial rate of warming is slight compared to the dramatic heating of the pole, a not-much-warmer equator and a slowly-healing Antarctic ozone hole would not at first glance appear to make for a steeper temperature gradient. Also: volume! -
mercpl at 10:03 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
Like JoeT, I was also struck by the statement that the temperature gradient between the Equator and the Antarctic is increasing. This is at opposite of what's happening in the Arctic is it not? I have also read recent reports of the warming of the Antarctic penisula. So are we only talking about the Antarctic Stratosphere? I understand that that has cooled because of the decline in Ozone which is in itself a powerful greenhouse gas. But then again I thought that Ozone levels were increasing because CFCs have been banned. So you could say that I am a bit confused. So here's my take of the explanation. 1. Ozone depletion causes the Antarctic Stratosphere to cool. 2. Cooling Stratosphere causes stronger west to east winds. 3. Stronger winds cause the ice to drift north, opening up more gaps. 4. These gaps encourage formation of new ice resulting in more ice area. -
JoeT at 09:33 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
A question about the ozone hole: Why is it predominantly over Antarctica? Why not over the Arctic as well? What's curious is that the temperature gradient is increasing in the southern hemisphere, but decreasing in the north. -
Alpinist at 09:10 AM on 18 November 2012The Apples & Oranges of Arctic/Antarctic Sea Ice Trend Comparisons
See also http://www.climatecentral.org/news/changing-winds-the-smoking-gun-in-antarcticas-growing-sea-ice-15246 over at Climate Central. Tamino had an extensive series of posts on this as well.
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