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Comments 62551 to 62600:

62551. Tom Curtis at 00:20 AM on 3 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       dunc461 @49, there are no such things as stupid questions. I can understand how you reached your conclusion in that for CO2, nearly all absorption and nearly all radiation is in the wave number 600-700 band shown in the Modtran graph. However, it does not follow. Energy absorbed by CO2 (or any other green house gas) is likely to be transferred to other molecules by collisions long before it is reradiated. From there it may be transferred to water vapour, methane, ozone, or some other greenhouse gas, and radiated in an entirely different part of the spectrum. Of course, much of it is reradiated by CO2, but a significant proportion of the energy radiated by CO2 molecules may well have been carried to those molecules via absorption by other GHG molecules, or even be convection or transfer of latent heat. What is important, therefore, is not the individual paths of any given packets of energy, but the statistical effect of the overall process. That is governed by the fact that in certain frequency bands, nearly all energy radiated from the surface is absorbed in the atmosphere, and that the atmosphere radiates in those frequency bands from much higher altitudes, and hence at much cooler temperatures. The result is a significant reduction of the IR radiation to space from those bands, which must be compensated by higher intensity in those frequencies where radiation can escape to space, which is achieved by a warmer surface. The distinction between tracking individual packets of energy, and the statistical approach may seem like hair splitting to you. Not recognizing the difference does, however, lead to genuine confusions, some of which have motivated some persistent so-called skeptic "myths". In one case I know of, the fact that radiation from individual layers of the atmosphere is in fact half up and half down has led to the mistaken assumption that IR radiation to space must equal the back radiation in those parts of the spectrum absorbed by GHG. That is, of course, false. In fact, downward radiation at the surface is often much larger than the radiation to space because it comes from warmer, lower layers of the atmosphere, while that to space comes from the cooler, higher layers. On a related issue, when you follow the statistical approach, it becomes evident that the back radiation is not necessary for the green house effect (although it does exist, and is significant for some climate effects). In particular, because the lapse rate is independent of radiative transfer in the troposphere, even if there were no back radiation, a greenhouse effect could still exist by modulating the rate of energy transfer by convection to the upper atmosphere. I will be exploring this, and other issues in forthcoming posts in this series. In the meantime, I hope this has been helpful. Finally, I apologize if I was too abrupt in my first response to you. Regulars here can develop a hypersensitive alert system for trolling. The result is we sometime react to legitimate questions as though they were attempts at trolling. We should not do it, but we are human. If you ever read the full sequence of comments in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics thread linked @48 above, you will understand why. So, if you think you have asked a silly question, it actually means I have just given a poor answer, for which I apologize. I hope this one is more helpful.
62552. Tom Curtis at 23:45 PM on 2 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       CoalGeologist @45: Case 1: Suppose you have a planet which is a perfect black body, and perfectly conductive. Therefore, the outgoing radiation from the surface of the planet will equal the incoming insolation, and the surface temperature, T, will be (a) T = (I/4s)^0.25, where "I" is the incoming insolation and "s" is the Stefan Boltzmann constant. Case 2: Suppose we have instead the same planet, but now cloaked in an atmosphere which is perfectly absorbing (and emitting) wavelengths. In this case the atmosphere's temperature will be given by equation (a). In this case, because the atmosphere radiates equally up and down, initially it will be cooler, but as the surface warms beneath it, the upward radiation from the surface will rise to match the downward radiation from the atmosphere until both equal the incoming solar radiation. So the temperature of both atmosphere and surface will be given by the equation: (b) T_A = T_S = (I/4s)^0.25, where the subscripts indicate atmospheric and surface temperatures respectively. Note that in case (2), there is a lot more "pool table ricochets", but the temperature is not increased relative to case (1). Therefore increasing the time it takes for radiation to escape to space is not a sufficient condition to establish a green house effect. I have, of course used a slab model for this discussion, which is inaccurate in life, but allows clarity in seeing the relevant relationships.
62553. Dikran Marsupial at 23:36 PM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Volker I also don't like repetition, so I will just address a couple of points. As KR, Scaddenp, Spherica and Skywatcher suggests, if you want your theory to be taken seriously, then yes, you do need a plausible physical mechanism. "I have refused your claim because I not agree with you on that analysis. A trained eye is able to see in a graph if there is a correlation or not. I have no possibility and no software to calculate a correlation coefficient. But each interested guy can perform such coefficient, because all date are public. It is not necessary that I must perform that. " This is wrong in almost every respect. Firstly we have statistics simply because the eye is unreliable, and an eye that has been trained to see correllations doubly so (as it will see spurious correllations even more readily). Secondly, there is a piece of statistical software called R which is in the public domain, so lack of software is no excuse for not performing the statistical analysis. If you don't understand statistics well enough to perform the analysis, then you need to be more receptive to the advice of those who do. Just measuring the correllation coefficient is easy, what you really need to do is to show that after having investigated the amount of data that you have looked at that it would be unusual to have found a match giving a coefficient as high as that which you observed. This is the test you need to perform to show that the coherence is nothing more than a random artefact. Your last point is the most egregious. It is your theory, this the onus is on you to perform the analysis to suggest that the theory is valid and to defend it against specific scientific criticisms. That is the way science works, whether you like it or not.
62554. dunc461 at 23:27 PM on 2 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       Tom Curtis @43 Thanks again for your response and patience. My concern is not with the accuracy of the models but in trying to understand the process. Somewhere I picked up the concept that the greenhouse effect was caused by the absorption by certain gases of energy radiating from the earth’s surface at specific wave lengths and re-emitting that energy at the same wavelengths, but in all directions so that half of the energy re-emitted is directed back towards earth. This seem plausible to me because if the energy were re-emitted at whole range of wavelengths, some of the energy would be re-emitted in the “transparent windows” and the energy measured, at the top of the atmosphere, in those windows, would be greater than a Black Body Radiation Calculation would predict. Your answer seems to rule out both possibilities so I guess the entire concept is invalid. I apologize for bothering you with my stupid questions.
62555. Dikran Marsupial at 23:16 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       Michael Hauber As I have already pointed out to you, temperature is not the only factor controlling the equilibrium. Another important factor is the level of CO2 in the atmosphere. If you want to discuss hypothetical situations that are unrealistic of the actual carbon system, then that is fine, but is of limited interest to me. The fact that atmospheric CO2 levels are rising more slowly than anthropogenic emissions established beyon reasonable doubt that the natural environment is a net sink hand has been opposing the rise. Any argument that suggests that the oceans were degassing would require the terrertial biosphere to be taking up half of anthropogenic emissions AND the CO2 released by ocean degassing in order for mass to be conserved. Even in that case, the natural environment is still a net sink and is opposing the rise in CO2. Now as it happens, scientists have monitored the oceans, and we know that it is a net carbon sink. See the work of e.g. Corrine Le Quere.
62556. Tom Curtis at 23:09 PM on 2 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       skymccain @47, not it is correct as written. In that form it exactly mirrors a common so-called climate skeptic argument. The argument made is that heat cannot flow from a cooler to a warmer location, and that therefore back radiation from the atmosphere (which is admittedly cooler than the surface) cannot result in the surface being warmer. In the analogy, the "mechanical breakdown skeptic" claims that the cool water cannot transfer heat to the warm engine block, so that even if the water gets warmer because of the broken pump, it will still be cooler than the engine block and therefore not capable of warming it. The presumed consequence is that the engine will therefore not run hotter because of a faulty water pump. Of course, nobody (or at least nobody sane) would run that argument about cars. But we are repeatedly challenged by so-called skeptics who have incontrovertible proof that "global warming is a lie", where the "proof" turns out be nothing more than the obviously false engine block argument transposed to the atmosphere. As of today, the thread I linked to has 1393 comment from repeated attempts by so-called skeptics to disprove fundamental laws of physics, and patient attempts to show them what is wrong with the argument.
62557. Dikran Marsupial at 22:43 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       owl905 The fact that CO2 levels had been pretty stable between 180ppm and 300ppm for the last 400,000,000 years, even during glaciations, is a pretty good indication that a balancing process exists. The natural carbon cycle has a stable equilibrium as the result of opposing feedback mechanisms balancing. If the equilibrium is peturbed, the balance is lost, and act is to restore the equilibrium. Such dynamic equilibria are common in the natural world. If we peturb the equilibrium with anthropogenic emissions, then the feedbacks will no longer be balanced (e.g. because carbon flux between the atmosphere and oceans depends on the difference in partial pressure between the surface waters and the atmosphere), and the natural environment becomes a net carbon sink, trying to retore the equilibrium. As for glaciation, the peturbation started by Milankovic cycles cools the oceans, which take in more CO2, which reduces the GHE slightly, ice caps grow, increasing abedo, which also results in cooling. The carbon cycle does re-establish the equilibrium, but it takes thousands of years to do so, just as it will take thousands of years to reestablish the equilibrium after we cease anthropogenic emissions (stabilisation will ocurr more quickly).
62558. fpjohn at 22:33 PM on 2 March 2012
       Nordhaus Sets the Record Straight - Climate Mitigation Saves Money
       Erp. I see the reference is now linked within the post. yours Frank
62559. fpjohn at 22:22 PM on 2 March 2012
       Nordhaus Sets the Record Straight - Climate Mitigation Saves Money
       The Nordhaus response is in the March 22nd issue of the New York Review of Books. http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/mar/22/why-global-warming-skeptics-are-wrong/ yours Frank Johnston
62560. owl905 at 18:53 PM on 2 March 2012
       Nordhaus Sets the Record Straight - Climate Mitigation Saves Money
       Inaction is credit-card environmentalism. Someday someone else can pay the cost to clean up the mess. Anyone that didn't 'get it' from the Stern Report is likely still bunkered down and determined to have the right to freely pollute.
62561. owl905 at 18:46 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       Dikran 15 wrote: "If we cut emissions sharply enough that the net environmental sink outstrips anthropogenic emissions, then atmospheric levels will fall. The choice is in our hands." There's no evidence that such a process or balancing act exists. If the sinks had that magical power and capacity, atmospheric levels would not have stayed at interglacial peaks of 280ppm cycle after cycle. The dance-partners are temperature and moisture. The true significance of the pollution problem has been diagrammed out repeatedly over the last decade - temperature/GHG levels will remain charged for centuries, and future interglacial cycles will respect the additional GHGs in the biosphere. There's a research paper around somewhere that calculates real sequestered-removal is in the order of 2 ppm per cycle.
62562. skymccain at 18:41 PM on 2 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       I enjoyed the post. "Suppose somebody told us their water pump was broken, but that the Second Law of Thermodynamics prohibited transfer of heat from a cooler place (the water) to a hotter place (the engine block), so they'ld be fine so long as they didn't rev any faster than normal, we'ld look at them in complete disbelief." Don't you mean "Suppose somebody told us their water pump was broken, but that the Second Law of Thermodynamics prohibited transfer of heat from a hotter place (the engine block) to a cooler place (the water)"?
62563. barry1487 at 15:21 PM on 2 March 2012
       Ice-Free Arctic
       There is an updated link to the full version of Polyak et al 2010 http://www.cgd.ucar.edu/staff/mholland/papers/Polyak_2010_historyofseaiceArctic.pdf
62564. owl905 at 14:59 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       Many posters here seriously underestimate Curry, and seem to figure the triumphant-truth shows the holes in her empress's new clothes. It's a dangerous underestimation. It hasn't shown holes - just added fuel to her fire. She certainly understands both the subject and the evidence. Her rejections and spin-twists aren't weakness - they're servants to her larger purpose. Her attack at the science has method and a very clear self-centred agenda. Her own words provide the motivation turning point - she was 'vilified' for recommending 'The Hockey Stick Illusion'. After that, she deliberately set about attacking 'the IPCC consensus'. She's selling, not telling - and she doesn't hide the reasons why.
62565. scaddenp at 13:50 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       Sorry didnt include sources: Fischer et al 2008 or Hinrich Schaefer, Michael J. Whiticar, Edward J. Brook, Vasilii V. Petrenko, Dominic F. Ferretti, Jeffrey P. Severinghaus 2006 Ice Record of 13C for Atmospheric CH4 Across the Younger Dryas-Preboreal Transition, Science 25 August 2006: Vol. 313. no. 5790, pp. 1109 - 1112 We report atmospheric methane carbon isotope ratios (13CH4) from the Western Greenland ice margin spanning the Younger Dryas–to–Preboreal (YD-PB) transition. Over the recorded 800 years, 13CH4 was around –46 per mil (); that is, 1 higher than in the modern atmosphere and 5.5 higher than would be expected from budgets without 13C-rich anthropogenic emissions. This requires higher natural 13C-rich emissions or stronger sink fractionation than conventionally assumed. Constant 13CH4 during the rise in methane concentration at the YD-PB transition is consistent with additional emissions from tropical wetlands, or aerobic plant CH4 production, or with a multisource scenario. A marine clathrate source is unlikely.
       Response:

       [DB] The Schaefer study can be found here (free download after free registration):

       http://www.sciencemag.org/content/313/5790/1109.abstract

62566. scaddenp at 13:43 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       "t is reasonable to suppose that this was the release of methane from clathrates trapped" However, isotopic evidence from CH4 in ice bubbles points to this being of swamp or oceanic source rather than clathrate.
62567. william5331 at 13:19 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       You would have to be incredibly blinkered to maintain that the carbon increase in the atmosphere is not anthropogenic. However, not to forget that atmospheric carbon increased sharply at the end of each glacial and was virtually certainly the result of the melting and not the cause. It is reasonable to suppose that this was the release of methane from clathrates trapped under the 3km of ice with the methane sourced from shale, coal and oil deposits over the 100k years the ice existed as well as from the anaerobic breakdown of organic material. On release it would have been rapidly oxidized to Carbon dioxide. If Greenland melts, there may be similar deposits waiting under the ice to further push global warming. http://mtkass.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/end-of-ice-ages.html
62568. dhogaza at 12:39 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       "As I understand it, there are really only three options that can explain Curry's nonsensical hypotheses: 1) She has not read the ARs. 2) She has read the ARs, yet chooses to misrepresent and distort their content and even fabricate strawmen, 3) She is not well and is losing control of her faculties." When Curry first went public with her odd ideas, she engaged Gavin Schmidt in a lengthy thread over at RC. It was clear that either she hadn't read AR4, or she had only skimmed it superficially. She made many of the arguments then that she continues to make now, and Gavin and others did their best to educate her on what the scientific work that underlies the IPCC reports (and the reports themselves) say. She's been corrected a multitude of times since, including the responses to her "uncertainty monster" paper. Yet she's not budged an inch. It's possible that #2 is true but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that #1 (is still?) true. I don't think #3 is true. It's really frustrating to see someone in her position remain absolutely deaf to all attempts to educate her as to her mistaken assumptions about mainstream climate science. It's one thing when someone who's relatively uneducated like anthony watts refuses to learn. But a department chair at GIT? geez.
62569. scaddenp at 12:37 PM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Hmm, when someone postulates that their forecasting tools are going to better than physical models, then I sense the possibility for a bet. So when do you think your "model" will deliver a climate that is outside the predictions of climate models?
62570. scaddenp at 12:32 PM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       Elsa you are repeating "But the problem for your side in this is that it results in a theory that cannot be falsified." Repeating this does not make it true. Climate theory makes predictions all the time. For a given set of forcing, you will get a given climate. (ie a 30 year average). Even the primitive model that was basis for Broekner paper got climate for 2010 right within the constraints. Your comment on this was to complain that the paper didnt predict decade of only slowly rising temperatures. Well of course it didnt because even the most advanced climate model today has no skill at decadal predictions. I would note a recent comment from Gavin Schmidt. "Obviously people have thought of this and there are a number of ideas that are being tested - but none of them really give what it wanted (i.e. predictions that will reproduce the interannual ups-and-downs that you could compare directly to the obs). For instance, a lot of work is being done on initialised predictions where you take the ocean state for the last few years, attempt to synchronise the various 'oscillations' and then run it forward. This shows some skill for a few years in something like the AMO, but can't give realistic ENSO forecasts longer than the specialised ENSO forecasting systems (i.e. 6 months or so). So the interannual short-term variability doesn't seem to be predictable. There are also big issues with drift in these runs, which makes even the multi-year trends someowhat difficult to interpret. Another idea is run multiple ensembles for short periods, pick the one that is closest to reality and continue the next set of ensembles from that one and so on. But this only produces a plausible hindcast that is attuned to the actual interannual variations, not a prediction. The fundamental issue is that it is likely to be very hard (if not impossible) to predict ENSO phase 5 or 10 years ahead of time and that puts a real limit on how good any short term predictions can be.- gavin" You seem to be claiming that because you cant falsify a model with tomorrow's temperature, then its not falsifiable. This is wrong. Look at how well climate models predicted climate instead. Your "repeat but with one variable changed" approach does not work in many of the natural sciences. Fortunately we have developed the tools (contrary to your earlier false assertion) for dealing with multivariate hypotheses. It is possible to imagine all sorts of futures which would invalidate models.
62571. JP40 at 12:18 PM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       At least the title of this article makes sence. From my experience, the idea that there is actually a serious debate over climate change is what causes most inaction, not the actual arguments of the deniers.
62572. Albatross at 11:40 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       DSL, Curry still teaches and has grad students. My advice to any grad students considering enroling in the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at GIT would be to run away and fast.
62573. Michael Hauber at 11:35 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Independence of Global Warming on Residence Time of CO2
       'Michael Hauber In the scenario you suggest, where the hypothetical sink were controlling atmospheric CO2 levels, the level would remain near the equilibrium level, rather than rising rather rapidly.' Not if the equilibrium level is determined by temperature, and temperature is rising rapidly. As an example, consider a see-saw with a small bucket on one side (atmosphere) and large swimming pool on the other side (ocean). Connect them with a pipe, and poor water slowly into the bucket, while tilting the see-saw so that the bucket gets lower and the swimming pool gets higher. With the right balance, it would be possible to pour water into the bucket at a rate faster than the water level in the bucket is rising. Water would be flowing through the pipe from the bucket to the swimming pool. But the level in the bucket would not be determined by the amount of water poured in, but by the tilt of the see-saw. I certainly do not believe that the oceans are responsible for the increase in Co2, but pointing out it is theoretically possible, unless you consider additional facts beyond what is presented in your argument.
62574. KR at 11:26 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       "... which is not the gravitation of Sir Newton, but the density of the volumes." I recall from the Cosmos TV series when Carl Sagan noted that the gravitational attraction of the obstetrician was larger than that of Jupiter, Saturn, or Mars - simply because (s)he was much closer. Thus throwing some severe doubt on astrology... Volker - Quite seriously, if you cannot point to a physical mechanism (a testable one, with some evidence), you are simply engaging in climastrology.
62575. skywatcher at 11:10 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       

       "... which is not the gravitation of Sir Newton, but the density of the volumes."

       Oh my! And next up from Volker, how white dwarf and neutron stars hundreds of light years away, with extreme densities (but somehow nothing to do with their gravity), control the future of the Solar System ... Sphaerica's point #57 resoundingly seconded!
62576. Bob Lacatena at 10:43 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Volker,

       I do not need a mechanism...

       To be taken seriously, yes, you do.
62577. Volker Doormann at 10:25 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Dikran Marsupial wtote at 07:12 AM on 2 March, 2012: “Volker, the scientific component of my objection was that you had not demonstrated that the coherence was anything more than temporary and actually existed throughout the satellite records.” I have demonstrated, and AFAIK as the _first_ researcher in climate, that there is coherence between the main frequency of the season cleaned sea level oscillations of the satellite records with the frequency of the heliocentric synodic tide function of the couple of Mercury/Earth over the whole time interval of the satellite measurements as a fact. I have no idea what mechanism is involved in that coherence; the fact is that the phase coherence shows high sea levels if the solar tide function shows spring tides and vice versa. And the high sea level peaks are also visible in global temperatures of the UAH satellite measurements as a higher temperature. If you call this a not more demonstration, that is your freedom; but I think it is worth to discuss it in the science community because a possible mechanism can bring more light into the basic question of the cause of the global warming. “I also pointed out that you had not performed a statstical analysis to see if a temporary coherence is surprising. Those are both valid scientific points, which you have refused to address.” I have refused your claim because I not agree with you on that analysis. A trained eye is able to see in a graph if there is a correlation or not. I have no possibility and no software to calculate a correlation coefficient. But each interested guy can perform such coefficient, because all date are public. It is not necessary that I must perform that. An other point is that the statistic tool is not an adequate tool to get a significance here; a significance is given better by a great number of comparisons of well known temperature reconstructions or proxies with the all the relevant solar tide functions, like A. Moberg et al, Bond et al, Zorita, R. Edwards, Mangini, G. Patzelt, and 10+ more, inclusive hadcrut3 and UAH. But as you know, there are differences between the proxies, maybe from different chemical processes in stalagmites and tree rings. I have done some hundred comparisons and have found by empery the strength of the tide functions of the several couples. “There is also the point that, like Scafetta, you need a plausible physical mechanism that can explain the strength of the effect, not just the correlation/coherence.” No, you are wrong. To realize a precise climate forecasting tool for the next millennium I do not need a mechanism, I do need only the NASA ephemerides and the empirical fitted tide function strengths. But nevertheless I have some hints about the physical background, which is not the gravitation of Sir Newton, but the density of the volumes. Rest snipped. V.
       Response:

       [DB] ...

       DNFTT, people.

62578. Dikran Marsupial at 09:44 AM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       Elsa, Do you actually know which observations Plass used? Have you read the paper? Elsa wrote "But the problem for your side in this is that it results in a theory that cannot be falsified." This is not true, as I have already pointed out here where I wrote "If we have data or projections for the other forcings, then we can use the theory to determine/project the plausible range of the response to the combined forcings. If the observations lie outside that range then the theory is falsified. It really isn't rocket science." How do we disentangle the various effects of different forcings? Using something called an attribution study. There is a wide body of literature on this subject, start with the relevant chapter of the IPCC WG1 report. Thus it seems to me that not only are you unwilling to answer questions, you are also ignoring the responses to your assertions. As DB suggests, DNFTT seems the appropriate response. You had your chance to demonstrate that you were interested in the science by looking at the work of Plass; sadly it is clear that you are not interested in the answers to your questions.
62579. dana1981 at 09:43 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Note, the figure shown by skywatcher @54 is essentially the same as Figure 6 in the post above (with a few minor differences).
62580. skywatcher at 09:35 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       I was constructing a response to a comment which made unsupported assertions, which has gone as I previewed, but for the benefit of readers, here's RealClimate's take on comparisons between AR4 models and data. Give me these over climastrological cycles any day! RealClimate 2011 update to model-data comparisons
62581. elsa at 09:23 AM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       pbjamm (-Snip-)
       Response:

       [DB] The topic of this thread is Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change; please stay on-topic.

       Off-topic portion snipped.

62582. Daniel Bailey at 09:09 AM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       And with this most recent comment, elsa stands revealed as full-blown troll. DNFTT.
62583. pbjamm at 09:04 AM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       elsa@86 "But the problem for your side in this is that it results in a theory that cannot be falsified. Whatever happens the theory can be made to fit the facts." I would certainly hope that the theory fits the facts otherwise it is worthless. If we followed your model of science then it would be impossible to expand knowledge when new information was learned. All old ideas and theories would have to be completely discarded when anything new was learned that was not explained entirely by the old. Rubbish
62584. DSL at 09:03 AM on 2 March 2012
       Ocean acidification isn't serious
       As Science is behind a paywall, here's a link to a report on the recently published Hönisch et al. (2012). The study found that, if CO2 emissions continue at their current rate, we're on track for ocean acidification unprecedented in the last 300 million years. Muttkat, perhaps you can show us why the testimony has value. Where is the science? And have you read the series on ocean acidification from working scientists Doug Mackie, Christina McGraw, and Keith Hunter?
62585. Jose_X at 08:58 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       It's a good thing if people can come here and engage. There is a wide gap in understanding among most of the people out there. To close off this forum to most non-scientists and to people who don't already understand and obviously can't agree would represent a missed opportunity.
62586. elsa at 08:54 AM on 2 March 2012
       Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
       Dikran You asked me "Please tell me which observations he used that are non-repeatable." I repeat the answer is all of them because the world does not stand still. We cannot try to test eg the temperature with a given level of CO2 and all other factors being equal over and over again. Each of them will have moved on and be different so the circumstances that we need to test the theory in a meaningful way cannot exist. You then say "CO2 radiative forcing is only one of the forcings that govern long term climate, as it says, for instance in the IPCC WG1 report. Does AGW theory say that temperatures cannot fall while CO2 levels rise? No, it doesn't." I completely accept that. But the problem for your side in this is that it results in a theory that cannot be falsified. Whatever happens the theory can be made to fit the facts. That is not to say that your theory is wrong (although I think that quite likely) but it not a scientific one for the simple reason that we cannot test it in any meaningful way. How can we disentangle the various effects of CO2, other greenhouse gases, water vapour,aerosols, sunspots just to name some that we know of? How about the ones that we do not know of?
62587. DSL at 08:38 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       DM, since this is authentic climastrology, perhaps we can persuade Tamino to waste his time by performing said statistical analysis for Volker. I'm sure Volker would welcome the chance to have an independent statistical analysis of his theory. I'm certain that if Tamino found robust significance across a variety of tests, he would help publish the findings. I do wonder, though, if Volker would abandon the theory if no significance was found.
62588. DSL at 08:31 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       I disagree, Dana. The cartoon does makes sense. The problem is that the sense is completely uninformed by a well-understood convention that Curry, once upon a time, completely agree with. How much more evidence is necessary before the conclusion that she is incompetent can be generally drawn? Does she still teach? Or has she become an administrator?
62589. Jose_X at 08:26 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       >> [JH]You have astutely avoided telling us what you are attempting to acheive in your serial and rambling postings. I came here to learn and to discuss. Learning is an engaging process. I believe I speak for most humans when I say that learning is weak if done by rote. You have to lay your doubts out on the table. My communication skills are rather limited, so perhaps I ramble more than makes you comfortable. I thought I was following the Comments Policy that I have seen pointed out to others.
       Moderator Response: [JH] I just wanted to make sure that you were not here to make mischief. My aplogioes for being gruff. Please proceed.
62590. Composer99 at 08:14 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       Josh has a problem with the concept of 'statistical significance', I see.
62591. Jose_X at 08:08 AM on 2 March 2012
       Radiative Balance, Feedback, and Runaway Warming
       Ricardo, currently a moderator (JH) believes I am "meandering". I asked for clearer guidelines on what to comment and what not to comment, eg, so I can avoid this "meandering". http://www.skepticalscience.com/news.php?n=1293#76064 I did not major in communications, that's for sure. And it does bother me not to come through clearly. To keep this fairly short, thanks for your information (the optical thickness part). I still think there is an apparent coincidence not yet covered on the temperature-pressure near matchup. [I would have to calculate optical thickness height to the lower .7 albedo flux at TOA and verify that this Venus lapse rate line sort of overlaps the similar slope line on earth by the time the pressures line up.] And the "non-GHE" case was not of 100% N2 with absolutely no ghg (I should have been clearer) but of using very low ghg % such as we find on earth. The 0 GHE case is trivial, as you pointed out. Sorry for the confusion.
62592. dana1981 at 07:53 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       Lars - yes, I saw that. The cartoon makes no sense whatsoever, and then for Curry to say it "encapsulates all this" just made me shake my head in disbelief. It's bad enough for a climate scientist to advertise a cartoonist who constantly belittles climate scientists (I rarely visit Curry's, but have seen her post several Josh cartoons), but then to claim that particular cartoon makes sense is just astounding to me.
62593. Jose_X at 07:27 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       JH#47, "meandering comments"? It would really help me know what you were talking about if you were a little more specific. I would like to know what questions or replies can be entertained here and which can't (maybe using a few samples of what I wrote). I can try to keep the forbidden comments to some other website and here stick to what is allowed. The closest possible violation I saw from the Comments Policy would be being off-topic. Although I was specifically invited to come and reply on this thread.
       Moderator Response: [JH]You have astutely avoided telling us what you are attempting to acheive in your serial and rambling postings.
62594. Lars Karlsson at 07:19 AM on 2 March 2012
       The Certainty Monster vs. The Uncertainty Ewok
       Have you looked at the Josh cartoon that Curry links to? "Josh encapsulates all this with a cartoon." I mean, seriously...
62595. Dikran Marsupial at 07:12 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       Volker, the scientific component of my objection was that you had not demonstrated that the coherence was anything more than temporary and actually existed throughout the satellite records. I also pointed out that you had not performed a statstical analysis to see if a temporary coherence is surprising. Those are both valid scientific points, which you have refused to address. The component of my post that was speculation was clearly labelled as such, and so is no excuse to dismiss the substantive scientific issue. There is also the point that, like Scafetta, you need a plausible physical mechanism that can explain the strength of the effect, not just the correlation/coherence. If you are interested in scientific based dialogue, then you need to conform to the conventions of science, for instance performing a proper statistical analysis of the data, or responding constructively to criticism, by for example, demonstrating that the claimed coherence is not merely a temporary artefact.
62596. Volker Doormann at 06:54 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       [DB] wrote: “If you did not wish to participate in science-based dialogue, of which experimental repeatability is an integral part, than why are you here?” (-snip'Complex question / Fallacy of interrogation / Fallacy of presupposition. The question presupposes a definite answer to another question which has not even been asked.'-) Dikran Marsupial wrote at 06:53 AM on 1 March, 2012: “If the coherence exists over the extend of the satelite record, then plot a graph of the coherence across the satelite record, better still, perform a proper statistical analysis. I suspect the coherence doesn't extend over the whole period of the observations, which would imply that the correllation is no more than a temporary correllation and is essentially meaningless.” I have given my arguments regarding that my astronomical method to forecast the climate is based on the real geometry and real objects in the solar system, while the math of N. Scafetta is not. If Dikran Marsupial has an idea or a theory or a personal suspection it is his personal opinion. A science based dialogue would take my given arguments and either one agree with or refute the method in a scientific manner. You are wrong, if you presuppose that the reply of D.M. is science based; it is not. On 1 March, 2012 at 06:42 AM I have given 8 URL’s of graphs, showing the results of my method including several thousand repetitions of solar tide periods. If you wrote your response some two hours later on 09:18 AM on 1 March, 2012, you must have had knowledge on the repeatability. Last point. If you are interested in a scientific based dialogue, the suspect to a person is not a method of science. V.
       Moderator Response:

       [DB] Buck up, answer questions put to you directly and spell out the physical causal mechanisms that support your hypothesis (_not_ a theory) complete with what significance testing you have done. 

       Failure to do so is an abject admission that you are practicing climastrology, not science.

       Pointlessly off-topic snipped.

62597. Jose_X at 06:42 AM on 2 March 2012
       Scafetta's Widget Problems
       KR >> it is extremely difficult to tell whether they are different fits or not. I think I see your point. I would assume that the fits followed some standard algorithm or goal (eg, maximize xyz). If key algorithm/function details for setting up the equation for each half actually come from an analysis of the whole (consciously or subconsciously), then that would spoil the predictive claims. >> hand-tuning ... There's a significant risk of confirmation bias. Yes. >> ..a small set of cycles ... There's a significant risk of confirmation bias. Well, the small number of cycles mostly appear to come from a standard approach I think. You did mention the 4yr cycle but that might just be a detail. >> not terribly useful for predictions when the underlying forcings are changing. Although frequency analysis can help identify patterns that were not seen before. It can augment MLR used by L&R08. It may give insight into PDO, AMO, and other such cycles. It may identify subtle coupling or small cycles within the cycles. I may help clean out their precise boundaries. It may also help understand shorter term ENSO. The derived data is data with a fresh face and that can help future efforts to understand the physics. I have not read Lean and Rind 2008 (nor the details of Scafetta'11), but I have heard that the models are not generally designed to deal with very short-term "weather". If a sound approach using frequency analysis proves to track future changes fairly closely for 1-30 years after the training period (ie, the range where many models are weak ??), then it seems modellers would want to improve the models in this way. It may be cosmetic to "tune" the model officially once per decade, but all else being equal who wouldn't prefer to have their model reduce short-term error significantly?
       Moderator Response: [JH] Your serial posting of meandering comments suggests that your primary objective may be to "gum-up" the SkS comment threads. Deniers who have previously played this game have been banned. We are closely monitoring your activity.
62598. shoyemore at 06:21 AM on 2 March 2012
       Greenhouse Effect Basics: Warm Earth, Cold Atmosphere
       Professor Ray Pierrehumber had an excellent review paper on this topic Infrared Radiation and Planetary Temperature
62599. scaddenp at 06:16 AM on 2 March 2012
       Radiative Balance, Feedback, and Runaway Warming
       GC - why would you give time to such astrology when there is perfectly good physical explanation for climate? Scafetta has another problem - how to explain why the known physical properties of GHGs do NOT affect climate, given the observed effects on DLR.
62600. Riccardo at 06:12 AM on 2 March 2012
       Radiative Balance, Feedback, and Runaway Warming
       Jose_X we already talked about the no-GHE case and you replied that it was not your interest ("My second scenario is not 100% N2 (which is this simple case you answered)"). Keeping in mind that we're talking about a rather crude aproximation, if you have a not too low absorbtion the lapse rate is not determined by the exact amount of greenhouse gas absorption, it's determined by specific heat and gravity. Where absorption matters is in the optical thickness as function of height needed to determine where to start extrapolating backward to the surface. You may easily understand that it's not by chance or other weird reasons that the temperatures in Venus and Earth atmospheres are similar for equivalent pressure levels. It's not that "it seems to cast some doubt to what all of that CO2 is doing."

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