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Comments 74551 to 74600:

  1. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    KR #66. wand wavers should have read hand wavers but I don't think the distinction would change your accusation of bias, which is misdirected. I've asked to be pointed to a more formal description of the dynamics. In response I get various narratives (which if you'll read through this thread and the Wiki I was pointed to aren't even self-consistent), variations of "why is this so difficult for you to understand" and accusations of bias for simply pointing out that there are other possible explanations. If that's what passes for inquiry hereabouts I guess I'll move on.
  2. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat wrote: "The CO2 is thus contributing an ever increasing radiant forcing." If you don't understand why the above is completely false, after having it explained to you several times, there really doesn't seem much point in continuing. The temperature forcing from CO2 feedback is finite. There is no need to "overcome" an "ever increasing" temperature rise from CO2. The warming from CO2 stops... all on its own. After the orbital forcing which caused it does. "Short of a mathematical proof, one must show how the data doesn't support the null hypothesis." You do realize I (and others) already provided the mathematical proof, right?
  3. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Chinaman at 17 puts it very well. I have often thought that calling things 'Monckton's Myths' and such like does not fit with the serious manner that the SkS site generally approaches the issue of climate change. I would list the erroneous statements/notions in order of the area of science involved, together with the accompanying discussion/rebuttal and close with the name of the perpetrator of the erroneous statement/notion. Seeing as there is quite a lot of this material, it would be a nice feature for a visitor to the SkS site to be able to sort the material either as just described, or in the order of perpetrators. Perhaps the whole section could be entitled 'Known Falsehoods'.
  4. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    KR #67. That comment is unfair. The just so story I was referring to was in reference to the narrative provided by Sphaerica, not to AWG theory in general. I've perused the link you've provided (multiple times). I don't see a treatment of the subject at hand there.
  5. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I have no emotional attachment to the titles themselves and am happy to change them if they bother people. Suggested alternatives are welcome.
    I don't what the outcome of these deliberations are going to be, but the statement above, indicates an open mind and this has to be appreciated. Take the recent example of the Christy-Santer contrasting topical post. It is not clear at all, from the post that Christy committed such a great faux pas that it deserves to be called a 'crock'. But it has been filed in that category. Christy, and Spencer are scientists - and even scientists have opinions - which is the a coalescing of a broad array of evidence, data, lifelong experiences, biases etc. Sometimes these may not congeal in a way that resonates with a supposed consensus that is put out officially (IPCC). I think scientists must be judged by the quality of their scientific work (which is itself not an easy thing). A Congresssional testimony is not the place of primary scientific exposition. People use it to put across their personal point of view. Every Congressional testimony has been, and will be like this. Hansen's influential Congressional testimony served as a platform for climate scientists of a certain view to push a certain paradigm. It may be easily questioned as to whether the summary of evidence existed at the time, for the certainty that was put forth in his testimony. For some skeptics, that may be a crock. But neverthless, Hansen did what he did and I don't believe in demonizing him. Thanks
  6. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    "I can't help thinking that "skeptics" are thin-skinned when it comes to complaining about perceived insults yet are are heavy-handed when it comes to dishing it out." People, people, people ... it's a tactic. Creationists have used it for decades now.
  7. Heat from the Earth’s interior does not control climate
    It's just comical (albeit predictable) to see skeptics even tried this one. I think the next one has to be: "Heat Release From Bioluminescent Sea Animals The Real Cause For Ocean Heating."
  8. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    KR @ 60:"eedbacks have lags..." Yes and lags (or more probably time constants) have associated eigenvalues which in a system of at least 2nd order with positive feedback would generally produce spectral peaking, if the system is stable, and oscillation if it is not. The problem is there is no evidence of this peaking in the PSD of the paleo record which instead has all the characteristics of a highly regulated, dominate pole compensated control system (or alternatively a system phase-locked to transcendental forcing function). One explanation would be that the system poles are highly dissipative and so slight peaking is masked by noise (but the positive feedback should provide Q multiplication). There are other possible explanations (like the one in the above paper) which fit the data. We can't of course jump to conclusions but neither should we adhere to orthodoxy and close our minds to alternative hypotheses.
  9. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    In retrospective, I think I agree with Kevin. Keep it simple and to the point. But keep it coming, please. It was a great idea to group arguments by denier, as well as the lessons from predictions series.
  10. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat - "just so" stories? No, you're aren't approaching this with any bias... Read the link Sphaerica provided - Spencer Weart's The Discovery of Global Warming -- A history. Based on the last 150+ years of physics, the radiative greenhouse effect and feedback via climate sensitivity are established science, poorly mapped electronics notwithstanding.
  11. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Time for neutral tones is long gone. Christy's science is a crock, and he more than deserves this title. Tell it like it is. And while I know you are striving for alliteration, "Spencer's Bombs" might be a more appropriate name for his work.
    Moderator Response: [Albatross] Tenney, I understand your frustration, but please tone down the rhetoric. Next time it will be snipped.
  12. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat - "But it is not as intuitively obvious as the wand wavers would have us believe." Wand wavers? Seriously? You are betraying quite a biased viewpoint there. This has been an interesting discussion, but that statement on your part indicates to me that you aren't very interested in answers. Do you understand the original post in this thread? That indicates the positive feedback response (with the delays necessary in a physical system) leads to a finite amplification? And that this amplification applies for forcing deltas both upwards and downwards, amplifying the magnitude of those +/- forcings changes? And hence that any changes in forcing are amplified to larger changes in temperature via feedback? Ice ages are initiated by decreasing insolation due to orbital mechanics. Interglacials are initiated by increasing insolation due (again) to orbital mechanics. Feedbacks turn a 1-3C forcing change into a 6-8C total change. CO2 as a feedback won't rise to 'saturation', and I would consider that a strawman argument - nobody has said it would. I would have to consider that statement either misdirection or a severe lack of understanding on your part.
  13. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    CBDunkerson #59 I no where claimed that CO2 must have a negligible effect on temperature nor do I believe that to be true. I stated that as the null hypothesis that can not be rejected on the basis of a just so story. Short of a mathematical proof, one must show how the data doesn't support the null hypothesis.
  14. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I second the suggestion made earlier to rename these buttons with the more neutral-toned word "errors." Why give your plausibly-persuadable readers any reason to think that this site is personal in nature. Sure, you can click on "Lindzen Laughers" or whatever and see that the arguments are scientific and not personal in nature, but no need to raise any red flags otherwise. Even if these labels (and worse) might be merited. To be honest, I cringed a little the first time I saw them.
  15. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Why accommodate Pielke? Why even respond to him?
    Moderator Response: [John Hatz] The SkS author team had a frank discussion of whether or not to respond to Pielke. Since he had publicly disparaged the integrity of SkS, we concluded that a response was warranted.
  16. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Here in the UK crock tends to mean as logicman @ 27 says an old or less than roadworthy car and also the broken pottery that gardeners put in the bottom of plant pots. Both meanings seem appropriate in the context used here. Crock of s@#t is I suspect an American term. As John Cook is an, I hope proud, Australian he should be happy to use the meaning he feels comfortable with. This site is one of the most honest, informative and well moderated in the climate blogosphere and I can see no reason for all of this angst just because Dr Pielke takes offence at some well merited labels and then tries to derail the subsequent comments thread. If Dr Pielke believes that WUWT is excellent I can only imagine that he has never bothered reading the long lists of offensive ill informed and frequently ludicrous posts to be found there. Well why would he? I cannot imagine any well informed and respected scientist wasting his time so. John Cook should be proud enough of his own achievement with SKS to stand firm and when necessary call a spade a spade.
  17. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    Sphaerica - the difficulty is explaining the _other_ transition, when your at peak insolation. At that point dT/dt is at a minimum. CO2 is still rising rapidly due to the 800 year lag but no where near saturation. The CO2 is thus contributing an ever increasing radiant forcing. How does the small insolation dT/dt overcome the CO2 forcing to turn the temperature back around? It may well be that f(Co2,T,..) is such that this all makes sense. But it is not as intuitively obvious as the wand wavers would have us believe.
  18. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the origin of the word "crock", as used in "Christy Crocks", does not come from the expression "crock of gold". I could provide an image of the actual OED entry here but words used in that entry would offend SkS community standards, apparently. I know that for many people "crock" no longer has a scatological association, but please accept that for others it will always come with a noxious whiff.
  19. One-Sided 'Skepticism'
    michael sweet @204 - personally I suspect that both Hansen and Trenberth are right, and the 'missing heat' is a combination of deep oceans and negative aerosol forcing.
  20. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    It seems to me that, given the number of times Christy and co. have 'said the thing which is not' in defense of inaction on climate change, using the word 'crock' to describe their testimony hardly seems excessive. But whatever. As long as it is made clear the low quality of testimony we are talking about here, it can be labeled any old way. The idea is not to please Pielke, though. He is hardly neutral. The idea is not to be off-putting to people in genuine search of information about climate change. They may have been misinformed by Christy or Lord Monckton. Inform them better using the science, as you have been doing. Keeping it civil adds to credibility, up to a point. But there are points beyond which you need a human response because being human gives you credibility too.
  21. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    15 - Bern "Get over it" Gets my vote. This level of criticism is soft stuff compared with what any academic would encounter in the average university common room.
  22. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat, I really don't understand how people can have trouble with the CO2 lags stuff. It's simple. Increasing temperatures raise CO2 levels. Raising CO2 levels raise temperatures. Once something kicks the system up and raises temperatures initially (orbital forcings, for example), a feedback loop kicks in. Without CO2, only the initial forcing takes effect, and temperatures rise only a little. With CO2 (and other feedbacks), temperatures rise substantially further. If you look at the ticker tape, it looks like temperatures are slowly rising and CO2 is following, but that is not what is happening. What is happening is that temperature rose first as a result of a forcing, and then CO2 followed, pushing the temperature up, which pulled CO2 up, and so on. This is really not that hard to understand, and there is no reason to express it in equations until you get the basic concept down.
  23. Observations of Climate Change from Indigenous Alaskans
    I would be interested in turning it into a guest post if you think it would be useful. However I do not know how to do this. My internet skills are still in the punched card era of two pass Fortran I'm afraid. Thanks for the invite.
    Moderator Response: [John Hartz] With your permission, I would like to post your comment as the "Reader Comment of the Week" in the next edition of the SkS Weekly Digest.
  24. A Convention for Persons Displaced by Climate Change
    The city of Kivalina in Alaska is facing huge relocation costs due to global warming. To offset these costs they have gone to court to sue major petroleum and power companies which substantially contribute to global warming. I have often said that the 'Waterloo' for global warming 'skepticism' will be in the legal arena because rules of evidence do not allow bogus skeptic arguments. This NYT article describes a recent case related to the Kivalina suit which illustrates this. Basically, one of the power utilities Kivalina is suing argued that their insurance company was also liable for any damages and should therefor defend them from the suit. The insurance company said no way and the utility took them to court. The court has now ruled that the insurance company is not liable because the insurance contracts require them to cover "accidents" whereas "the utility was intentionally emitting carbon dioxide and knew that it contributed to global warming" and "the natural and probable consequence of that intentional act is not an accident under Virginia law". No equivocation. CO2 emissions cause global warming. The kind of arguments we see from global warming 'skeptics' aren't even admissible in court. Thus, we can expect to see alot more rulings like this which accept the mainstream science as established reality as litigation over global warming impacts increases.
  25. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    You know, I could go with "Christy's Cuckoos": a cuckoo is a bird that lays its own egg in the nest of a different kind of bird. Upon hatching, the interloper tosses out the legitimate eggs and/or hatchlings, and assumes the role of the infant - essentially stealing a set of parents. In the same way, Christy has planted distorted arguments in the nest of public opinion and Congress, to usurp the role of the actual conclusions of 97% of the working climate scientists; thus giving rise to the next generation of - cuckoos.
  26. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Again, perhaps "Spencer Speculations" and "Christy Curios"?
  27. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Might I suggest a section: Roger's Red Herrings Yeah I know, which Roger? But the last name has the same problem - which Pielke? Dr. Pielke starts by claiming SkepticalScience engages in ad hominen presentations on the subject of the UAH MSU temperature record, an assertion he could not support. When that's noted, he puts forth several scientific issues not related to the topic of the post, asserting that "is where the discussion should be focused". After persistent efforts to try to steer Dr. Pielke back on topic, he asserts that his beef is with titles like "Spencer's Slip Ups" to categorize broadly criticisms of claims being made. But "Spencer's Slip Ups" and "Christy's Crocks" are conclusions. They aren't part of any argument to discredit someone or their argument. The only ad hominen argument here is Pielke's, as he is using the category title to discredit the content, which he hasn't given any indication he's read. Dr. Pielke then went on to reveal that he has a double-standard, admitting his standard is limited to those whom he has not "recently published with and/or closely worked with", while he actively seeks to defend those who has published or worked with. This was good evidence for both tribalism and the title of the post "One-Sided Skepticism". It also explains why Dr. Pielke describes the blog of Anthony Watts as "excellent", and asserting he complies to the highest scientific standards, while trashing the quality of this site, which he's given little indication he's read much of.
  28. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    hank_ I think John has fairly described what happened in the Pielke exhange. Pielke never addressed the substance of the critiques of Christy's and Spencer's statements. He never identified the ad hominem's. Insted he tried to change the subject, posting off topic comments that were clearly tolerated far more than usual by the moderators. He wanted to talk about the science, for sure, but only as long as it didn't involve the science that was misrepresented by Christy and Spencer and which was the subject of the post. In my opinion, you could add another button for Pielke Prevarications. As for the labels, I don't get the same mental image from "crocks" that some do, but I understand the negative response to that word. Still, it's hard to come up with an alliterative word that doesn't have even worse associations. "Christy's confusions" perhaps. I do agree the personalization of the debate is regrettable. You have Santer we have Spencer, you have Alley we have Christy, you have Mann we have Lindzen...it's all part of the attempt to level the terms of debate by assigning a 5-aside to take each other on with their super-powers, x-men like. That said, I'm not sure I am for removing the buttons. The fact is that the personalization is a reality of the public debate, fabricated though it is. I'm not sure ignoring the situation makes sense. These people are so visible compared to your average climate scientist, precisely because they are so rare and must be relied on over and over again to legitimize the "skeptic" arguments. They have asked for the attention, so they deserve the scrutiny. Having them up top provides an immediate way for people who are less informed to quickly locate specific rebuttals to their arguments and to get some context on the real science.
  29. One-Sided 'Skepticism'
    In post #113, Dr, Roger Pielke Sr. had this to say about Anthony Watts: "I have worked with Anthony and he is devoted to the highest level of scientific robustness." Dr. Pielke is smart enough to know that people are judged by the company they keep. Has he never read any of the vitriolic diatribes posted by Anthony Watts on his website, WUWT?
  30. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat#61: "more effort into understanding the nature of the limiting mechanisms." Seems to me you are looking for a level of difficulty found on Isaac Held's blog.
  31. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I think there's reasonable grounds for consideration on this topic. While I don't really see a problem with the titles I think it is perhaps sending the wrong message having these personality-based headers in such a prominent position on the site. From a certain perspective it could be understood as you setting yourselves in opposition to these people, rather than their statements, which is the essence of ad-hominen. You could make the case that these individuals have shown persistent behaviour which is deserving of a label but, still, focusing on personality is perhaps not the route you want to go down. Since most of the articles under the personality-headers relate to statements made by these people in the press, perhaps you could have a 'Skeptics in Public' section, which contains all of them. Within the section you could organise the articles by name - I can't see any reasonable objection to that - similarly to the RCwiki area.
  32. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Philippe @ 45... Exactly. How can Pielke possibly be offended by just the phrasing of these titles when he surely sees the constant stream of vitriol that gets propagated at WUWT? It strikes me as someone wading through mud to come tell me indignantly that I have a nasty little stain on my tie.
  33. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Hank @37, I think you need to carefully re-evaluate your position and move beyond the "buttons". It would help if you did that and actually read the series and see for yourself how SkS is addressing misinformation put forth by "skeptics" and calling on the science to do so. This is not about trying to discredit people with opposing views, it is about calling out, addressing and correcting misinformation, myths, distortion and cherry-picking that 'skeptics" routinely engage in. The 'skeptics" discredit only themselves when they do that, but only if it is brought to people's attention. That is where SkS comes in. Since when is is wrong or in poor form to highlight and address these nefarious actions? Hank would you rather SkS ignore the misinformation? And as you surely have seen by now, SkS entertains many differing views, in contrast you are unable to make comments on Dr. Pielke's blog.
  34. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I can't help thinking that "skeptics" are thin-skinned when it comes to complaining about perceived insults yet are are heavy-handed when it comes to dishing it out. Arthur Koestler coined the word "mimophant" to categorize people with this behavior. An example of this was the absurd claims of blacklisting over the Anderegg et al paper , when lists of prominent climate "skeptics" had been published previously by "skeptic" sites. (Pardon all the scare quotes.) Similarly, the outrage that ensues whenever the word "denier" is used because of the imagined link to Holocaust denier. Yet no objection is raised on the "skeptic" side when climate scientists are equated to the actual perpetrators of genocide, as Monckton has done more than once. Having said that, I don't particularly like "crock" as an expression. It's short for "crock of s [*** snipped ], not the kind of image or language normally regarded as acceptable on this site.
    Moderator Response: [mc] We all know that one connotation of 'crock'; it is not the only one.
  35. Philippe Chantreau at 02:46 AM on 20 September 2011
    Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Hank, all that John Cook does is point exactly how this little sequence of events proceeded. Dr Pielke did all the work to discredit himself, he needed no help for that. Who really stoops the lowest in this story is clear. Considering the abysmal depths at which WUWT sinks on a regular basis, we could sincerely think we have a way to go. Of course, it is a lot easier for a "skeptic" blog to keep credibility with its readership, all it has to do is to always come to the same conclusion regardless how ludicrous the reasoning, how blatant the incompetence. I gave examples in the other thread. There are plenty more. I won't go waste my time there just for the sake of further substantiation. You do have a point in the sense that our task here is quite a bit more difficult. We do accept the bounds of reality. Blogging life is easier for those who don't. Fake skeptics have had it real easy for years. No accountability whatsoever. The most egregious accusations thrown around. Scientific fraud, as in the Soon and Baliunas fiasco and others since, with very little or no consequence. They even have the government working for them, in the person of Cucinelli and the individuals trying (clumsily) to attack the polar bear researcher. It is high time that the reality based fight back. Inconsistencies, hypocrisy, double standards, harassment, abuse of FOIA, misleading of the public and policymakers, lying to congress all should be met with what they deserve. SkS should do some of that work. Dr Pielke threw accusations around, when confronted on it he had nothing to say and tried to change the suject. That was low. Calling him on it was not.
  36. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    hank_#37: "the long term credibility of your blog ... suffering right now." In what way? Has anyone made a scientific misstatement? Or are you suggesting that 'credibility' suffers because some folks object to the words occasionally used to describe their work? That seems highly subjective.
  37. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    cynicus, As a non-tone troll (or at least as a tone non-troll), I don't like the term "crock" because it has immediate and unavoidable distasteful connotations for myself and for a substantial fraction of other readers - connotations that have nothing to do with the point that is to be made. With regard to other terms, such as "slip-ups", I think this usage is not really unfair: The issue really is arguments that are done in what appears to be bad faith, with the intent to deceive. I don't have any problem with indicating that that is what is going on. But spare me the bathroom associations, please.
  38. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Hank @ 37... So, you think SkS should never attach misinformation to the misinformants?
  39. SkS Weekly Digest #16
    As noted in the lead article, Dr, Roger Pielke Sr. had this to say about Anthony Watts: "I have worked with Anthony and he is devoted to the highest level of scientific robustness." Dr. Pielke is smart enough to know that people are judged by the company they keep. Has he never read any of the vitriolic diatribes posted by Anthony Watts on his website, WUWT?
  40. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    @Albatross #36 and DSL #40: Dr. Roger Pielke Sr. is smart enough to know that people are judged by the company they keep. Has he never read any of the vitriolic diatribes posted by Anthony Watts on his website, WUWT?
  41. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    It's a fine dance, CW, but the intention is that comments shouldn't be explicitly political or explicitly an attack on the person (though if someone makes a ridiculous argument and receives a response that makes the arguer look silly, well, that's an implicit and perhaps unintended ad hominem). By the way, your comment is in violation of the comments policy: no comments on moderation.
  42. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Hank, eh? This website is devoted to the communication of climate science. If bad science is being used to confound non-experts, then this site is well within its mission to address that use. Remember, Hank, the arguments here don't start with the pundits; they start with the science and move to the punditry when necessary (this thread, for example). This is not first about Christy or Spencer and then their science; it's about Spencer's and Christy's science and how it is being uncritically promoted. For the 143rd time, where's the ad hominem?
  43. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Alb, I don't have a problem with Pielke's use of "robustness" there. After all, it's true. Watts does allow the promotion of every theory on his website, no matter how ridiculous. It's the modifier "scientific" in front of "robustness" that makes me question his ability to represent science in general.
  44. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    @John Cook; I think you're doing yourself and this website a disservice by stooping to such levels to discredit people that post opposing views here. Please step back and take an honest, eyes wide open look at what you're saying. Think about the long term credibility of your blog while doing this. It's suffering right now. Sincerely, Hank.
  45. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    Just a follow up from the other thread "One-sided skepticism". On that thread, Pielke was afforded preferential treatment (he has an intriguing take on his experience on his blog), others' posts were deleted and his -off topic posts remained and he was provided a link to discuss his favourite metric (oceanic heat content) on an appropriate thread. On that thread, Dr. Pielke evaded and dodged questions directed at him by readers (his very first post was off-topic and so was his second post and in his third he obfuscates and argues a strawman, and on on it went). In doing so, he missed out on a golden opportunity to address readers' concerns, reassure readers of his willingness to objectively and without bias assess the body of science on AGW, and also demonstrate that he believes that it is more important to stand up for science and truth, than it is to cover up (or defend) misinformation propagated by his associates (e.g., Watts, Spencer and Christy). If anything, Dr. Pielke's actions on that thread make it near impossible to dismiss concerns about him being a one-sided skeptic. One of the more telling (and unfortunate) claims made by Pielke Sr. on that thread was: "I have worked with Anthony and he is devoted to the highest level of scientific robustness"
  46. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    I think there is no need to be cute. "Errors" as in Christy's Errors and Spencer's Errors is straight and to the point.
  47. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    scaddenp #56 - Yes the phase-lock formulation is under-constrained and thus produces a functional (i.e a class of functions) solution. But these functions share common traits which may yield insights regardless of what the real underlying dynamics are. If in fact the climate dynamics are described by something akin to the Van der Pol equations synchronized to the Milankovitch cycles, we know quiet a lot about the dynamics of such systems which may provide insight into the question of primary import: "how hot will it get?" The paper linked above provides a plausible explanation for how small changes in insolation can result in large temperature swings even if the climate sensitivity is low. All that is required is a non-linearity in the feedback loop. The reason for this constraint is apparent. The equations define a limit cycle which precludes a constant forcing from increasing the maximum excursions. Instead, equilibrium is reached by translating the d.c. power into harmonics of the forcing function, hence the need for non-linearity. Now "non-linearity" handwaving is no better than feedback handwaving. But it seems to me that we should be putting more effort into understanding the nature of the limiting mechanisms. It just might save our bacon.
  48. Philippe Chantreau at 01:45 AM on 20 September 2011
    One-Sided 'Skepticism'
    For interested readers, more about S&C here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/08/et-tu-lt/ And here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/05/how-to-cook-a-graph-in-three-easy-lessons/ These are only 2 examples.
  49. Positive feedback means runaway warming
    jpat - Feedbacks have lags, that's part of physical nature. Water vapor has a lag of 5-10 days. CO2 solubility in the oceans has both a short term (months-years) and long term (~500-800 year) response times, based upon surface water adjustment and deep ocean circulation. Ice melt/accumulation and vegetative changes in albedo have their own response rates. The initial forcing is followed by an amplifying feedback, results continue to amplify (in decreasing amounts), a new stable state is reached (inter-glacial, for example). The initial forcing changes again, decreasing, allowing more CO2 to sequester in the oceans, hence another amplifying feedback until a new stable state is reached based upon the then current forcings (ice age). Rinse and repeat... In the electronic analogies you have used, you need to incorporate resistor/capacitor or resistor/inductor elements - nothing is instantaneous in climate.
  50. Chasing Pielke's Goodyear Blimp
    In my opinion the button designations are fine. These arguments do highlight bad faith on the part of a tiny group of individuals (some scientists and some observers) who engage in dubious practices (e.g. as highlighted in the resignation letter of the editor of Remote Sensing), and then complain about how mean the people are that spotlight it! We'd be remiss not to highlight examples of scientific bad faith. We should have considerable admiration for scientists like Drs Dessler, Wagner and others like those Albatross referred to in his post just above, who do some of the less rewarding work of countering bad faith nonsense at the "coal face". The contributions of SkS are important too, and focussing on some of the individuals who to a greater or lesser extent chose not to properly represent the scientific evidence, is entirely appropriate. I simply can't think of a good reason why we (Joe Public) shouldn't be adequately informed on issues of scientific importance..

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