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Comments 78151 to 78200:

78151. Albatross at 04:10 AM on 31 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Hello Ken, I'll respond to your post @52 as soon as I can find a suitable window of time. For now, I will note that your post is a great example of the blind spot that you have for BP's musings, and I'll note too that BP has still not responded to requests to provide a reputable scientific citation that refutes von Shuckmann and Le Traon (2011). Also, I would ask for you to please elaborate on what the implications of this perceived "fundamental inconsistency in the AGW science" are. Are you trying to suggest that the theory of AGW has been overturned? Are you suggesting that it means that climate sensitivity to doubling CO2 is grossly overestimated? Thanks.
78152. muoncounter at 03:41 AM on 31 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       pirate#44: "That is certainly adaptable by plants, animals, and human animals." In order to adapt, one must first be aware of the problem. In the case of humans, comments like this are among those that will keep lots of people in the dark. "On the Waccamaw River in coastal SC, ..." Your examples reveal nothing more than confirmation bias. Do you not understand that it is the combination of subsidence due to poor coastal land management and the effects of rising sea level (plus increased storm surge) that are the problems? Or that the point of this article was 3mm/yr measurable now, more to come fairly soon? There is a host of literature detailing the risks of sea level rise; example Dasgupta et al 2007: Sea-level rise (SLR) due to climate change is a serious global threat: The scientific evidence is now overwhelming. Continued growth of greenhouse gas emissions and associated global warming could well promote SLR of 1 m in this century, and unexpectedly rapid breakup of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets might produce a 3–5 m SLR. ... Our results reveal that tens of millions of people in the developing world are likely to be displaced by SLR within this century; and accompanying economic and ecological damage will be severe for many. At the country level results are extremely skewed, with severe impacts limited to a relatively small number of countries. Another is Nicholls et al 2008: This paper explores for the first time the global impacts of extreme sea-level rise, triggered by a hypothetical collapse of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS). As the potential contributions remain uncertain, a wide range of scenarios are explored: WAIS contributions to sea-level rise of between 0.5 and 5 m/century. Together with other business-as-usual sea-level contributions, in the worst case this gives an approximately 6-m rise of global-mean sea level from 2030 to 2130. Global exposure to extreme sea-level rise is significant: it is estimated that roughly 400 million people (or about 8% of global population) are threatened by a 5-m rise in sea level, just based on 1995 data. -- both emphases added Yet all you can offer is 'we can adapt'.
78153. Bob Lacatena at 02:47 AM on 31 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       44, apiratelooksat50,

       A change from 0.5 mm/yr to 3.0 mm/yr may appear to be drastic, but let's look at it realistically.

       You are ignoring the "per year" aspect of a 2.5mm/yr increase. Ten years, 25 mm. Fifty years, 125 mm. Beyond this, storm surges and other factors make periodic maximums even larger. Also, sea level changes are not homogeneous. This is a global average, but individual changes can be much, much greater, due to regional effects. Places like the Netherlands and New Orleans are also already dangerously below sea level. Meanwhile, for many ecosystems parts of the world, even this seemingly small change is large. Your provision anecdotal examples of cases where changes are not relevant says nothing about the frequency or importance of cases where it is.
       Moderator Response: [mc] fixed closing blockquote tag
78154. sidd at 02:33 AM on 31 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       To follow up to my own post: The hansen energy imbalance paper provides various estimates of contributions to heat uptake http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2011/20110415_EnergyImbalancePaper.pdf sidd
78155. apiratelooksat50 at 01:48 AM on 31 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Muoncounter @ 40 A change from 0.5 mm/yr to 3.0 mm/yr may appear to be drastic, but let's look at it realistically. Pull the plug out of your iPod earbuds. The width of that plug is roughly 0.12 inches = 3 mm. That is certainly adaptable by plants, animals, and human animals. Coastal marshes can change annually from salt to brackish to fresh. So, your statement about saltwater intrusion destroying wetlands is only partially correct. You would need to read more than the abstract in the link provided. The interface between land and sea is dynamic and there is always a battle between the creation and destruction of land. On the Waccamaw River in coastal SC, where I used to live and still maintain a home, we witnessed a massive saltwater intrusion that killed freshwater species many miles upstream. The cause was an extended drought and not sea level rise. As the drought abated over the next few years, we witnessed a change back to the brackish and freshwater species. The smaller freshwater species recovered more quickly than the larger ones such as bald cypress. This is a nice powerpoint on a Delaware Estuary Study Also, anthropogenic pressures on tidally influenced freshwater streams and estuaries largely come from urbanization, improper land use practices, impervious cover, dredging and any change to the hydrology of the stream. One of the major problems in the loss of the Louisiana wetlands were the creation of dams, levees and canals which increased the rate of water flow and did not allow the usual sedimentation to occur. From Louisiana State University "During the last few decades, the human factor in wetland loss has increased drastically. The placement of dams and levees across and along the tributaries and distributaries of the Mississippi River have reduced both the amount and texture of sediment reaching the coast." [inflamatory snipped]
       Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Please stick to the science and leave the moderation to the moderators.
78156. sidd at 01:31 AM on 31 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Is there an estimate with error bars of continental heat uptake ? I have seen estimates of 0.75x10^22 J but with no error bars Thanx sidd
78157. Composer99 at 00:54 AM on 31 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       Thanks again, Sphaerica @87; I've linked to your summary at the Bad Astronomy thread.
78158. Bob Lacatena at 00:47 AM on 31 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       85, Composer99, A quick summary of RC's key points:
       • Not all satellite datasets give the same extreme result... they chose the one that makes their claim look best
       • The paper lacks the supporting statistical information to make it credible
       • The paper lacks the information to make it repeatable
       • Those two items alone demonstrate very shoddy peer review
       • The journal it was published in is in no way a credible climate science or atmospheric physics journal
       • RC's own similar analysis shows different results (and these are clearly provided by them)
       • The overly simplistic model is one that Spencer has used before and has already been proven to be grossly flawed and easily manipulated to produce any desired result, and so is wholly improper in its use in this context
       • Like Lindzen before them, in order to use such a small time frame, Spencer uses ENSO warming as a proxy for climate change without accounting for the fact that ENSO is very different from actual climate change, and is not a forcing itself
       • Their conclusions about climate sensitivity are incorrect and unsupportable
78159. Bob Lacatena at 00:39 AM on 31 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       85, Composer99, The RC post is pretty specific, and pretty scathing. They apparently agree with my assessment that their conclusions about climate sensitivity are invalid, and also find numerous flaws in the methodology, and do a pretty darn good job of backing up that claim. What's their bottom line?

       The bottom line is that there is NO merit whatsoever in this paper. It turns out that Spencer and Braswell have an almost perfect title for their paper: “the misdiagnosis of surface temperature feedbacks from variations in the Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance” (leaving out the “On”).

78160. Composer99 at 00:22 AM on 31 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       Thanks, Sphaerica.
78161. Bob Lacatena at 00:11 AM on 31 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       80, Composer99, An oft repeated quote in the blog entries I've found (I'll trust Trenberth over Spencer any day of the week, year, decade or century):

       "I cannot believe it got published," said Kevin Trenberth, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

78162. Bob Lacatena at 23:58 PM on 30 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       80, Composer99, RealClimage did just yesterday do something with this here. And the blog post I just linked to also has this analysis.
78163. Bob Lacatena at 23:55 PM on 30 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       80, Composer99, A quick google search did find this: No, new data does not “blow a gaping hole in global warming alarmism”
78164. Bob Lacatena at 23:52 PM on 30 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       80, Composer99, It was only just published days ago, so I'm sure it will take a while for even serious blog criticisms, let alone rebuttals, although except for reputation and past performance, there's no reason on the surface to believe what the paper says is entirely wrong. I'm only just reading it right now, but an early assessment based on the conclusions, from a purely amateur point of view, is that I don't believe these findings in any way affect climate sensitivity. They may affect the rate of warming due to the rise in CO₂, and so arriving at the final temperature setting for the level of CO₂ we pump into the atmosphere may take longer. That would, in fact, be somewhat in keeping with what we are observing. It would also be dangerous, because it could lead to a false sense of security that climate sensitivity is low. That would cause us to burn more fossil fuels, and raise CO₂ levels even higher, when that end result could be totally untenable for the poor souls that have to live in those conditions long after we're gone. And they'll have to find a way to combat those conditions without any fossil fuels as even a minor factor in the battle, because by then they'll be all gone, or the atmosphere will be so badly polluted with CO₂ that they won't dare to add a single additional ppm. But simply because the planet is able to shed heat more quickly, to me, does not imply low climate sensitivity, but rather only a slower rate of warming. The final temperature will be the same. So while the paper's results may be correct, I'm not entirely sure that the conclusions they make properly follow those observations. But, as I said, I haven't yet read the full paper, and I don't think the people who are truly qualified to do so will be able to get to it for some time yet.
78165. Composer99 at 23:48 PM on 30 July 2011
       OA not OK part 11: Did we do it? Yes we did!
       I for one appreciate the careful, step by step nature of this series of articles, each one laying out some single element of the problem of ocean acidification.
78166. Composer99 at 23:33 PM on 30 July 2011
       Michaels Mischief #1: Continued Warming and Aerosols
       Since this is a post on the subject of Forbes magazine, I don't feel too bad bringing up another Forbes article on the subject of global warming (my link is to astronomer Phil Plait's blog Bad Astronomy). The author is using Spencer & Braswell 2011 to support his claim. Unfortunately, Phil doesn't link to an article or blog post specifically critiquing flaws in Spencer & Braswell's paper. Having done a search on Skeptical Science using the phrase 'spencer 2011' I do not think any such rebuttal has occured here. Anyone familiar with the reaction to Spencer & Braswell 2011? Will there perhaps be a Skeptical Science post on the paper?
78167. Ken Lambert at 23:32 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Albatros #51 "Now with that all said, it does appear that the rate of increase in GSL may have slowed since around 2004. Unfortunately, this has led some people to get very excited as to the perceived implications (not only now but down the road too), and make such ludicrous assertions such as made by BP @ 41:" Why would you use the term 'ludicrous'? I checked the numbers BP offered up in support of his argument and they are correct. Furthermore, your quotation: "The analysis reveals that an 8-yr period without upper ocean warming is not exceptional [0-700 m]. It is explained by increased radiation to space (45%), largely as a result of El Nino variability on decadal timescales, and by increased ocean warming at larger depths (35%), partly due to a decrease in the strength of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation." "There is the (possible) mechanism required for the increase in deep ocean heat content that the "skeptics" keep whining about." So it is 'whining' when skeptics point out inconsistencies in the AGW science, but it is OK for the AGW protagnists to offer only 'possible' mechanisms as evidence for maintaining a 0.39W/sq.m global warming imbalance, let alone a 0.9W/sq.m which is still being held fast by Dr Trenberth. Dr Trenberth responded on the **'Trenberth on Tracking...' SKS thread recently.. "ENSO involves a redistribution of OHC and losses to the atmosphere in the latter part of El Nino, and gains during La Nina, so this is internal to the climate system, not external (comment 31). The southern ocean is clearly playing a role (comments 48, 49)in taking up heat and mixing it deep, even though the magnitude of the observed warming is small. But the data are fragmentary and unsatisfactory in many respects. Nonetheless, the southern oceans, while playing some role, are not the main place where the heat goes in our model. We have a paper submitted that describes and documents that in more detail so it is premature to go into detail here." When does ENSO become an 'external' and not an 'internal' forcing of the climate system? El Nino and La Nina cycles are NOT 10 years apart. Dr Trenberth seems to be offering another 'model' in his upcoming paper rather than actual observations. We will read it with great interest. This is what Dr Trenberth** said on SKS about the 'Asian sulphates' explanation for the stasis in surface temperatures: "There is discussion in the comments of the supposed finding that increasing aerosol (pollution) from China may be the explanation for the stasis in surface temperatures and I do not believe this for a moment. Similarly, Jim Hansen has discussed the role of aerosol as a source of discrepancy. However, the radiation measurements at the top of the atmosphere from satellites (CERES) include all of the aerosol effects, and so they are not extra. They may well be an important ingredient regionally, and I have no doubt they are, but globally they are not the explanation." Sot there still remains the fundamental inconsistency in the AGW science - CO2GHG and its climate feedbacks are supposed to be producing an increasing imbalance at TOA and increasing surface warming and observations over the last 6-10 years show that this is not happening.
78168. Composer99 at 23:18 PM on 30 July 2011
       The Ridley Riddle Part One: The Red Queen
       Dave123, you can use HTML tags for italics, embedding pictures, and the like, using the triangular open & close brackets.

       ---

       Back on topic, that Ridley has adopted both an extreme market libertarian position with regards to the role of government and a contrarian position with regards to climate change (or at least with regards to its consequences) strikes me as verging on crank magnetism. Again, all the more surprising given his apparent familiarity with collective action problems (of which prisoner's dilemmas are a principal component).
78169. Albatross at 16:37 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Re the GSL rise, some "skeptics" here are suggesting that the ARGO data are too short to arrive at a discernible trend between 2005 and 2010. Yet, another "skeptic" on the same thread wants to try and convince us that the rate of increase in GSL is decelerating at a significant rate over the same period using such scientific and compelling language as "for all practical purposes.". Well sorry, that does not cut it. So what do the experts in the field say concerning the rate of GSL rise (note the error bars)? "GMSL Rates CU: 3.2 ± 0.4 mm/yr AVISO: 3.22 ± 0.6 mm/yr CSIRO: 3.2 ± 0.4 mm/yr NOAA: 3.2 ± 0.4 mm/yr (w/ GIA)" [Source] Now with that all said, it does appear that the rate of increase in GSL may have slowed since around 2004. Unfortunately, this has led some people to get very excited as to the perceived implications (not only now but down the road too), and make such ludicrous assertions such as made by BP @ 41: "In this case current rate of ocean warming is 0.2°C/century and land based ice is not in immediate peril. I can live with that." To assert that is absurd, and just bad science period. Because, as found by Katsman and Oldenborgh (2011): "The analysis reveals that an 8-yr period without upper ocean warming is not exceptional [0-700 m]. It is explained by increased radiation to space (45%), largely as a result of El Nino variability on decadal timescales, and by increased ocean warming at larger depths (35%), partly due to a decrease in the strength of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation." There is the (possible) mechanism required for the increase in deep ocean heat content that the "skeptics" keep whining about. They go on to claim that: "Recently-observed changes in these two large-scale modes of climate variability point to an up- coming resumption of the upward trend in upper ocean heat content." We'll have to wait and see, b/c if aerosols are indeed a role player it might not be internal variability that is explaining all of this. That is, this has all been further complicated by the huge increase in sulphate aerosols from Asia in the last decade, not to mention by a prolonged solar minimum. Last, but not least, "skeptics" seem very fond of ignoring error bars and uncertainty (but only when trying to make claims that it is not bad of course). The estimate of ice sheet loss, GSL rise and OHC are not hard and fast numbers that one can use make grandiose and bold deductions and predictions about with simple back-of-the envelope calculations.
78170. Albatross at 16:07 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Camburn, Might I also suggest that you read the main post and the paper by von Shuckmann and Le Traon. The trend in OHC (down to 1500 m) was not the main objective of their paper (as indicated by the title "How well can we derive Global Ocean Indicators from Argo data?"), they also have some caveats in there, such as: "Note that our estimations provide an estimation of errors on the trend over a given time period. Such trends even if they are statistically significant cannot be interpreted as long term trends as they are certainly influenced by interannual signals." But when speaking to claims made by some "skeptics" that the oceans have not been accumulating heat since 2004, these data are appropriate , and show such bold (and premature) assertions to be demonstrably false. PS: Disappointing that you so uncritically and unskeptically accept Spencer and Braswell's latest poor effort as some kind of silver bullet. It has not taken long for the real scientists to refute it, see here and here.
78171. Albatross at 15:45 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Rob P @45, Nice find. I also found this summary of the Loeb et al. paper on the intertubes: "In a recent study (Loeb et al. 2011) Co-Chair Norman Loeb addresses a seemingly contradictory issue with respect to observed interannual variations in net TOA radiation and ocean heat storage raised by Trenberth and Fasullo (2010). On a global annual scale, interannual variations in net TOA radiation and ocean heat storage should be correlated, since oceans serve as the main reservoir for heat added to the Earth-atmosphere system. Wong et al. (2006) showed that these two data sources are in good agreement for 1992–2003. In the ensuing 5 years, however, Trenberth and Fasullo (2010) note that the two diverge from one another. The new paper by Loeb and co-authors uses improved satellite top-of-atmosphere (TOA) radiation measurements and a new analysis of ocean heat content data to show that while Earth’s energy imbalance and ocean heating rate have exhibited variability consistent with El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO), there is no evidence of a decline during the past decade. Satellite observations of top-of-atmosphere (TOA) net radiation constrained by recent in situ ocean heat content data indicate that during the past decade Earth has been accumulating energy at the rate 0.52 ±0.43 Wm–2. These results suggest that although Earth’s surface has not warmed significantly during the 2000s, energy is continuing to accumulate in the sub-surface ocean at a rate consistent with anthropogenic radiative forcing." [Source] Interesting times.
78172. scaddenp at 14:42 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       By the way, I am perfectly aware of where to get the SL data from - just not how BP got his error bars.
78173. Derek B at 14:39 PM on 30 July 2011
       Roy Spencer’s Great Blunder, Part 1
       I have a problem with the whole S&B approach. They regressed F (the independent variable) against T (the dependent variable). In stats that's a howler. The right procedure is the inverse, estimating 1/alpha from (in their notation) -Sum{N.F}/Sum{F.F}. Given that S&B's motivation was: "While it is true that the processes that cause the X terms are, by FG’s definition, uncorrelated to T, the response of T to those forcings cannot be uncorrelated to T" this may well be significant. It would certainly be interesting to rerun their model on that basis. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, yet no-one else seems to have picked it up.
78174. scaddenp at 14:36 PM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       EtR - because as temperature warms sealevel will rise and they will get their share. "Recently" I hope means you are thinking "since 1950" - no cherry picks. Those places not where I expect sealevel to rise fastest - just where I expect the effect of sealevel rise to be most severe. And no, of course I dont expect to stay in their houses and drown. I expect reduced food production from salt incursion and migration into places which are already crowded - unless you are offering a home?
78175. actually thoughtful at 14:20 PM on 30 July 2011
       How we know we're causing global warming in a single graphic
       At night, CO2 and clouds would deliver very similar effects. Obviously the cloud cover amplifies the CO2. I think this is fairly well established (except for those who reject the science).
78176. actually thoughtful at 13:17 PM on 30 July 2011
       The Ridley Riddle Part One: The Red Queen
       The fallacy is the premise that government spending is "waste" or negative. A person employed by the government has an income, contributes to society and pays taxes. There are some areas where governments are inefficient (do you want the government pricing bread?). And there are areas where they are inefficient by design (blowing things up, and then often paying to rebuild the things they blew up (this is sometimes called "war")). But there are other times when the government is the only possible solution - national defense (note two sides to that coin), who but governments could have started the space race? Governments are good with things like safety nets and public safety - they can think in 100 year increments, instead of the next quarter ("Can think" and "do think" are different). But many people start with the assumption that government is bad, and because they start with a false premise, their conclusions may be valid, invalid or pointless - we have no way of knowing, because the premise is false ("If the moon is made of cheese then we will solve global warming tomorrow").
78177. muoncounter at 13:11 PM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       EtR#41: "Do you expet people to remain in their homes while the water rises?" I suppose they could start by building boats. But here's a more sobering opinion from Mumbai, India: The other consequences such as rise in deaths from vector-borne diseases, dislocation due to floods and sea-level rise have been shown as projected economic losses for the years 2025 and 2050. The economic costs of sea-level rise in terms of loss of property along the coastline have also been projected for a 25- and 50-year timescale respectively. The costs arising due to increase in malaria, diarrhoea and leptospirosis outbreaks have been projected till 2050. The conservative estimate of total costs of all these impacts, including the impact of climate change on tourism, are found to be enormous. Yep, a leptospirosis outbreak sure would hurt tourism.
78178. Eric the Red at 13:04 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Thanks for the paper Rob. I agree that the aerosols are a prime suspect for the recent slowdown. Although I have not ruled out other possibilities yet.
78179. Eric the Red at 13:00 PM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Scaddenp, The places you mention have not experienced high SLR recently. Why would you expect those areas to suddenly have increases more than the areas that saw the highest increase in the 20th century? Muon, Why would so many die each year if they adapt? The SLR will occur over decades, perhaps centuries. Do you expet people to remain in their homes while the water rises?
78180. muoncounter at 12:58 PM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       pirate#37: "the fact that we have adapted to SLR since the last ice age is irrevelevant" It's all about rates of change. Compare the pace of your 'natural cycles' to what we see now. Look more carefully at the 2nd graph you posted here. In a detail view: Most of what we call civilization dates back to circa 6000 yrs bp. During that entire time period, SLR was approx 3 meters; a rocking 0.5 mm/year. Now we are measuring upwards of 3 mm/yr. So yes, your statement about the last ice age is irrelevant. "The loss of the wetland buffer areas (which is due to man's actions) was also a maor contributor." Yes, man's impact on the environment; an anthropogenic issue. Fast forward to exacerbated loss of wetland buffers due to salt water encroachment into fresh water marsh: Once vegetation dies, there is a loss of soil volume due to loss of root turgor and oxidation of root organic matter, which leads to elevation collapse. Revegetation cannot occur because of the low elevation and weak soil strength. Or due to the combination of subsiding coastline and rising sea level. Tell us how developing countries 'adapt' to bigger storm surges. "are you trying to connect Katrina to AGW?" No need. I cited Katrina as an example; pick last year's Queensland storm if you like. And here's a connection between rising sea surface temperature and Atlantic hurricanes. BTW, did your class study of Katrina include anything about sea surface temperature? The record-breaking Atlantic tropical cyclone activity of 2005 followed an active 2004 season, during which Hurricanes Charley, Frances, Ivan and Jeanne all wreaked havoc in Florida. Although sea surface temperatures (SSTs) in the Atlantic had been elevated above the long-term average since 1995... In the aftermath of 2005, modelers began to explore ways to address the possibility that, as long as SSTs remained elevated, hurricane activity and insured losses might also be elevated. And yes, my 3rd point referenced the geopolitical reality of this century. Do you think that everyone whose lives are disrupted by climate change will simply suffer in silence? Climate change acts as a threat multiplier for instability in some of the most volatile regions of the world. Projected climate change will seriously exacerbate already marginal living standards in many Asian, African, and Middle Eastern nations, causing widespread political instability and the likelihood of failed states. You dabble in environmental science; start connecting these dots.
78181. Dave123 at 12:36 PM on 30 July 2011
       The Ridley Riddle Part One: The Red Queen
       I'm going to risk a comment an apparent contradiction without having read Ridely- I look to this statement: Ridley argues that progress occurs when individuals can freely trade their goods, skills and ideas with their neighbors. This allows everyone to benefit from specializing at what they do best. Human societies prosper when individuals can live their lives free of what Ridley considers to be the parasitic and stifling influences of government and organized religion. In order for me to specialize in what I do best, I need other peope to do certain things for me, such as provide policing and regulation to prevent predation. It's not just being mugged but white collar crime. It's fair weight on the scales (assured by a government agency), clean water (provided by a government service), clean air (provided by the ability of government to regulate, safe drugs.... the list goes on. Libertarians in general don't grasp this, and they underestimate the incentives for people to cheat, and rely too much on anticipation of being caught and punished as opposed to being prevented. Deep down, I think a lot of libertarians think that they could be a lot more successful if only the government didn't keep them from screwing the other guy, who deserves it.
       Moderator Response: [mc] fixed italics tags
78182. actually thoughtful at 12:35 PM on 30 July 2011
       SkS Weekly Digest #8
       I LOVE The cartoon! A perfect commentary on why the US is nowhere to be seen when it comes to dealing with the biggest problem humanity has ever faced.
78183. scaddenp at 12:05 PM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       "Sorry for driving you desperate, but acceleration term calculated from satellite sea level data is significantly negative." Your error term is widely at variance with other estimates - perhaps you might like to show us your working here. Managing the satellite reference frame to 0.1mm/yr I can only assume as truly monstrous cherry pick of short term data. For ITRF accuracy try here. I think you need to look at 10-15 year trends for any real credibility (which applies to claims of acceleration as well).
78184. scaddenp at 11:53 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Eric - the places most likely to be affected badly by rising sea level are the great deltas with high population densities, - Mekong, Nile, Ganges, Niger etc. Dont see many of the inhabitants ranking high in the CO2 emission stakes. (The exception would be the Rhine -ie netherlands).
78185. scaddenp at 11:50 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Pirate - houses go on fire from "natural" causes. Does that mean I have no legal recourse against an arsonist? I am sorry but this seems to be simply a case of being interested in your own rights without consideration for the rights of others, and a refusal to take responsibility for consequence of action (and inaction). Is this really the values that you support? As to "who is responsible" - then the check the graphic here. Frankly this is "we are all part of the problem" is dead wrong. This is just an attempt at self-justification.
78186. Dikran Marsupial at 11:41 AM on 30 July 2011
       Models are unreliable
       Scott I had a look at it a while back and was not impressed by it. As Gavin's comment at RealClimate suggests the main problem is that they didn't spend enough time learning about the climatology or the way in which models operate and are used. This meant they ended up doing things like evaluating model predictions on station level data. It is well known that models can't be expected to do so (as the climate at station level depends on local geography on a scale much smaller than the typical grid box of a GCM) and in practice modellers use downscaling methods. So they are criticisng the use of models for something models are never actually used. I rather doubt their statistical methodology is robust either, but I can't remember the details off-hand, I'll have a look for my earlier post. The thing that I found irritating though was the constant mention of the IPCC, when none of the issues raised in the paper had any bearing on what the IPCC have already done, just on what they are planning to do for the next WG1 report. However reading the paper you might think it somehow casts doubt on the accuracy of existing reports. There has been at least one comment paper submitted to the journal. I was thinking of submitting one myself on the statistical aspects, but I just don't have the time to run the simulations etc. In essence, it was a rather poor paper, that shouldn't have been published in its final form, IMHO.
78187. apiratelooksat50 at 11:39 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Muon @ 33 Please correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying the fact that we have adapted to SLR since the last ice age is irrevelevant? If so, can you please explain? Your first bullet may be correct and is a good example of what happened in New Orleans. But, are you trying to connect Katrina to AGW? If so, I need you to provide some evidence. We studied Hurricane Katrina at length and at no times did our resources ever indicate any proven connection to AGW. The effects of Katrin, which was only a Category 3 hurricane, were exacerbated by poorly designed and even more poorly maintained levees and pumping stations. And, you are talking about a city that lies below sea level. The loss of the wetland buffer areas (which is due to man's actions) was also a maor contributor. And, please tell me that your 3rd bullet is not referencing terrorism. If it is please define.
78188. SEAN O at 11:38 AM on 30 July 2011
       Roy Spencer’s Great Blunder, Part 3
       It is Spencer's usual baloney. The is a post up at Real Climate right now. Gavin's take is: "The bottom line is that there is NO merit whatsoever in this paper. It turns out that Spencer and Braswell have an almost perfect title for their paper: “the misdiagnosis of surface temperature feedbacks from variations in the Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance” (leaving out the “On”)." http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/07/misdiagnosis-of-surface-temperature-feedback/
78189. Composer99 at 11:33 AM on 30 July 2011
       The Ridley Riddle Part One: The Red Queen
       Apart from Ridley's, shall we say decided inconsistency between word and deed as described by Monbiot on the subject of such things as government bailouts, he demonstrates an apalling ignorance of just what, exactly, that 'parasitic bureaucracy' he detests does, in terms of some rather simple things such as maintaining and enforcing property rights. Ridley seems to be expressing in a surprising degree of economic illiteracy for someone who is familiar with the literature on game theory, social cooperation among humans, and the like.
78190. eperezjr at 10:24 AM on 30 July 2011
       Roy Spencer’s Great Blunder, Part 3
       It seems that Spencer is at it again. He has published another article with much of the same arguments as are critiqued on this web site. http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/3/8/1603/pdf
78191. scaddenp at 10:01 AM on 30 July 2011
       Models are unreliable
       Forecasters at it again. However, I see you asked over at Realclimate as well (good idea), so it's worth noting Gavin's response: "Actually it isn't that terrible. They clearly spent more time trying to understand the science than previous forecasting researchers and they do a reasonably constructive job of trying to see whether you can improve on climate model projections. They slip up a little in mixing up decadal intialized predictions with the wider climate model enterprise but it is a reasonable first effort."
78192. Rob Painting at 00:56 AM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       ETR - the steric contribution does indeed appear to have slowed. Consider the differences (even allowing for the different time periods and lack of coverage) between Von Schuckmann 2009 and this study. Ice melt is contributing more and more to sea level rise, but that's a whole world away from BP's claims. Some very recent papers have looked at this issue - and they completely disagree with BP too. I'll post some graphs and links tomorrow. KL - Doc Trenberth may disagree, but there's a paper been submitted to the journal Nature: Heating of earth’s climate system continues despite lack of surface warming in past decade - Loeb (2011) They use new TOA (top of of the atmosphere) satellite radiation, and ARGO OHC data, measurements to show that the 'slow-down' in warming is consistent with radiative forcing - they find warming of 0.52 =/- 0.43W/m2, - i.e the 0.9 figure is wrong. I have no idea when it's likely to be published though. All-in-all supports what I wrote in the "Why wasn't the hottest decade hotter?" thread - there was a slow-down in the rate of global warming during the 'noughties'. Those pesky manmade aerosols are a prime suspect in my view. They would explain a lot of the observations.
78193. apiratelooksat50 at 00:53 AM on 30 July 2011
       Earth's Climate History: Implications for Tomorrow
       Chris G @ 28 FYI - I do believe in doing those things that could help "all the starfish". Within reason, that is. And, that is probably a conversation for another time and place. Peace!
78194. muoncounter at 00:48 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       EtR#35: "I just found it rather ironic ..." Ah, irony. Millions will suffer deprivation and disease. Tens of thousands will die each year. Is this your ironic definition of 'also get to pay for the adaption'? BTW, your short list of 'places which have contributed the most CO2' is grossly incorrect. And if you are trying to isolate SLR effects to specific locations, you are all wet. Example: as the Gulf of Mexico rises, the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port and its terminal at Port Fourchon goes under. That's connected to 50% of US refining capacity. Maybe you were feeling good about not living on the drowning coastline, but this means you won't get to drive much. Or maybe we'll 'just adapt.'
78195. Ken Lambert at 00:22 AM on 30 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       BP - various posts BP - you might want to look at the Trenberth contribution to the debate here: http://www.skepticalscience.com/news.php?p=2&t=70&&n=865 The issue of OHC increase of decrease is a vital one to the whole AGW story. Your point that one can't have a high mass rise (2-3mm/yr) and high steric rise (or any steric rise at all) at the same time when the overall rise is 2.3mm/yr is obviously correct. In energy balance terms, a high mass rise from land ice melt worsens the 'missing heat' part of energy balance markedly; because of your point that 58 ntimes more heat energy is required to get a mm of steric rise compared with a mm of ice melt rise. Dr Trenberth's 0.9W/sq.m global imbalance is getting further away from 0.39W/sq.m which is the 0.55W/sq.m of **oceanic** rise expressed globally. What is needed here is a credible explanation of why the fast held 0.9W/sq.m is not being found as OHC measurement improves.
78196. Eric the Red at 00:17 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Muoncounter, Not really. I just found it rather ironic that those places had experienced the greatest SLR. Noticeably absent were areas in Europe, but they are evidently benefitting from the rebound effect.
       Moderator Response: (DB) This statement embodies the lack of understanding you demonstrate on SLR; some areas do rise due to GI Rebound while others may be experiencing SLR.
78197. muoncounter at 00:10 AM on 30 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       EtR#32: "those places experiencing the greatest SLR are also the same places which have contributed the most CO2. ... Ironically, those contributing the most CO2, also get to pay for the adaption." This is stunning in its sheer brilliance: 'If you pollute you must pay' sounds a lot like you're proposing a carbon tax.
78198. muoncounter at 23:59 PM on 29 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       pirate#31: " ...since the last Ice Age" Irrelevant. - the rise of overpopulated cities with insufficient infrastructure in the vulnerable coastal zone occurred in the last 100 years. - the interconnection of world financial systems, largely in coastal cities, occurred in the last 20 years - the proliferation of dangerous weapons available to highly motivated (hungry, frightened, angry, displaced) people -- and a potent demonstration of their effectiveness against affluent, complacent populations -- occurred in the last 10 years The fact that you cannot offer more than 'we can adapt' indicates that you aren't prepared for serious discussion on this issue. How do you respond to student questions about the likelihood of climate change driving more frequent extreme events -- another Katrina, another Pakistan flood, a continued Sahel drought? Just say adapt? Grow gills?
78199. Camburn at 23:42 PM on 29 July 2011
       Ocean Cooling Corrected, Again
       Rob: You are falling into the short time frame trap. There has not been a long enough series of ARGO data to provide sufficient valid data to suggest that the oceans are warming or cooling. Skeptics use this all the time, the short term time frame. I do not believe that you are a skeptic.
       Moderator Response: (DB) Please read the OP.
78200. Eric the Red at 23:19 PM on 29 July 2011
       Rising Oceans - Too Late to Turn the Tide?
       Scaddenp, During the past half century, those places experiencing the greatest SLR are also the same places which have contributed the most CO2. These include the Eastern U.S. and Gulf of Mexico, the East coast of Japan, New Zealand, and the Phillipines (alright, the Phillipinos have not contributed as much). Ironically, those contributing the most CO2, also get to pay for the adaption. http://www.burtonsys.com/climate/MSL_global_trendtable1.html

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