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MattJ at 18:11 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
There is one part of the Conclusion that strikes me as particularly well-written, almost worth memorizing! It is: "their letters provide with a perfect example of the strategies deployed by climate "skeptics" to twist the debate and sow doubt in the minds of the public. BHS articulate their argumentation around the defense of an ideal of scientific method they believe in while clearly violating the rules they pretend to respect. Citing irrelevant quotes or taken out of their context, misunderstanding fundamental concepts, concentrating on precise points without looking at the broad picture, cherry-picking or even inventing scientific facts and data in order to provide with justifications to their hypotheses, etc." -
scaddenp at 18:06 PM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
Chris, I am lost or puzzled. In what way is dark matter puzzle in physics related to ether theory in physics? This isnt a connection that I can see. -
chris1204 at 17:59 PM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
KR @ 56: Oddly enough, ether, or aether is coming back into fashion in modern physics known variously as Dark Matter or Quintessence. Maybe rumours of Aristotle's demise are somewhat premature.Response:[DB] Fixed html.
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jarch at 16:52 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
I know how to evaluate the likelihood of a given set of numerical parameters when a theory has been proved (by the probability that the observations would have given a result at least as distant from the prediction as what has been actually observed). But I have no idea of how to give a probability to the hypothesis that some theory is true. Do you have other examples in the history where this has been done ? I think that quantifying a likelihood can be done only for the numerical value of parameters, when you have a certitude that the underlying theory to handle them is true - you cannot quantify anything is you're unsure that the theory is true. -
Albatross at 15:31 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Hi Stephen, No worries, no offence taken. I was being critical of myself. -
Stephen Baines at 15:21 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Albatross...No criticism was intended! I just wanted to point out (to anyone who cares) that Charlie A was referring to a different graph in the Held paper than the one you posted (fig 4). The one you post is actually much more relevant to the climate sensitivity of the model, but someone looking at it might have no idea why Charlie A said the things he did, and why they were incorrect. I was just trying to avoid future confusion. The red lines in your posted graph (where Held is doing the opposite experiment and suddenly forcing to preindustrial levels at different times) are depicting the inverse behavior depicted in Fig 1. -
Albatross at 15:00 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Stephen @11, Thanks. I realized a while after posting that "my caption" (from Held's blog) did not speak to the red lines. Thanks again for clarifying....although you were probably being polite....I should have been more diligent. -
adelady at 14:46 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Thanks DB. I realised as soon as I hit the button that you'd say something like this. I'm happy to have it on the to-do list. Unfortunately, we're in the middle of selling the house. Constant vacuuming, dusting and all the rest for inspections (as well as packing or discarding 30+ years accumulated stuff before moving) doesn't leave much brain space for real work. I promise to start assembling dot points and references and a few key paras. I'm a horribly prolix writer so it'll take me dozens of iterations to get it readable. (Or I'll give up and send it for someone competent to edit and polish.) Serves me right. -
Stephen Baines at 14:37 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Just to clarify Albatross's point...Charlie A clearly misinterpreted Fig 1 in Held et al 2010, which was a model experiment involving a sudden doubling of CO2. The point of that figure is that an initial increase in temp due to the "fast" response component of the model is separated from the increase due to the "slow" response component by a transient plateau in temps. Charlie A has misinterpreted this plateau as "equilibrium" despite the authors explicitly stating "the system is clearly still far from equilibrium when it plateaus, and Fig. 1 shows only the initial steps of the transition to the equilibrium response." This text and the text quoted by albatross was directly discussing that figure, so how Charlie A missed it is a mystery. -
Stephen Baines at 14:19 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Camburn, when you go from... "I still stand that OHC of 0-700 meters is flat to negative." to "As I have stated, there are problems with OHC. " it's equivalent to saying, "I can use the data to say what I want, but it's not good enough for you to say anything different." Basically, you're having your cake and blowing it up, too. Is that what you mean by thinking outside the box? -
Tom Curtis at 13:33 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Camburn @13, if you mean the link provided @2, there is no discussion by you on that thread. I am not here to play some silly guessing game about which comments by other posters you may or may not agree with. If you have problems with Von Schuckmann et al (2009 or 2011) you should explicitly state them on the appropriate thread. Otherwise, as I have said, you are rightly considered to be merely hand waving. @14 and @15: you left out some quite revealing quotes."I do not agree with your comments[that absent of measured ocean heat content is best interpreted as lack of OHC]. We are well aware that there are well over a dozen estimates of ocean heat content and they are all different yet based on the same data. There are clearly problems in the analysis phase and I don’t believe any are correct. There is a nice analysis of ocean heat content down to 2000 m by von Schuckmann, K., F. Gaillard, and P.-Y. Le Traon 2009: Global hydrographic variability patterns during 2003–2008, /J. Geophys. Res.,/*114*, C09007, doi:10.1029/2008JC005237. but even those estimates are likely conservative. The deep ocean is not well monitored and nor is the Arctic below sea ice."
(Kevin Trenberth, 16/4/2010, my emphasis) So if you appeal to Trenberth's authority, the proper conclusion is that Von Schuckmann and Le Traon 2009 is superior to previous papers, but probably still underestimates OHC. That is hardly supporting your position."Actually, Kevin, I do not think that they are all very different. It sounds like you are familiar with Lyman’s upcoming Nature paper and in both Figure 1 and Figure 2 of that paper, you can see that the estimates after 2005 all have the same basic variability. In fact, if these estimates did not include the XBT data, they would be even more similar in terms of their variability. I have personally verified that my own estimtes of OHC variability are very similar to those made by von Schuckmann, Eric Leuliette and another Argo-only analysis by Dean Roemmich for the post 2005 period. During this period, the technique and statistics used to interpolate the data is really not that important because the data coverage is very good. In fact, the same is true for the period of the 1990s. One of the main points of the Lyman Nature paper is that the data biases are by far the most important remaining error–much larger than the differences caused by different interpolation techniques or differences in the assumed statistics."
(Josh Willis, 17/4/2010, my emphasis) So, you have one expert who thinks the analysis is inadequate, and that it underestimates OHC increase; and another who thinks the analysis is adequate, and that it shows significant OHC rise (as in Von Schuckmann and Le Traon 2009 and Von Schuckmann et al 2011). From this you conclude, "When looking at a lot of literature, the error bars overlap enough that about all that can be concluded is that the OHC is flat with a negative bias." In other words, from expert agreement that there is a positive trend in OHC, you conclude that there is a slight negative trend in OHC. No more needs to be said.Response:[DB] Closed missing html tag.
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Albatross at 13:27 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Charlie @9, "I find Spencers finding of 1.3C sensitivity for doubling of CO2 as entirely unsurprising." Please pay attention, it has been demonstrated by Dr. Bickmore that Spencer was wrong, again. I do agree that this finding is unsurprising, but for very different reasons than you think. You are misrepresenting Held's research, that or you do not understand what his 2010 paper was about.
Caption: The black curve in this figure is the evolution of global mean surface air temperature in a simulation of the 1860-2000 period produced by our CM2.1 model, forced primarily by changing the well-mixed greenhouse gases, aerosols, and volcanoes. Everything is an anomaly from a control simulation. (This model does not predict the CO2 or aerosol concentrations from emissions, but simply prescribes these concentrations as a function of time.) The blue curve picks up from this run, using the SRES A1B scenario for the forcing agents until 2100 and then holds these fixed after 2100. In particular, CO2 is assumed to approximately double over the 21st century, and the concentration reached at 2100 (about 720ppm) is held fixed thereafter.
From Held et al. (2010):
"The model’s equilibrium climate sensitivity for doubling, as estimated from slab-ocean simulations, is roughly 3.4 K. Consistent results for the equilibrium response are obtained by extrapolation from experiments in which a doubling or quadrupling of CO2 is maintained for hundreds of years."
Held's work doesn't support a low equilibrium climate sensitivity, regardless of your efforts to distort his findings.
The sensitivity of the GISS-E model, at least the last time I looked was +2.7 C. So you misrepresented them too.
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Charlie A at 13:06 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
I find Spencers finding of 1.3C sensitivity for doubling of CO2 as entirely unsurprising. The GISS E model has a sensitivity of only about 1.2C/doubling in the short term (5 years, for example) and only about 1.8C over a century timeframe. This is about the same as the NOAA GFDL CM2.1 model. See blogposts 3 through 6 at Isaac Held's blog that is hosted on the NOAA website, or look at Held et al 2010 (full text pdf). Held describes the NOAA GFDL CM2.1 response to a 100% step in CO2 as a rise to 1.5C in 3 or 4 years, then a plateau at that level for 70 years until it starts to slowly rise. Looking at the graphs, I would characterize it more like a 1.4C sensitivity CO2 doubling with a tau of 4 years, followed by 0.35C per hundred years slope for the next few hundred years. -
Charlie A at 12:56 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
It appears that he extrapolated. Between 2007 and 2011 Hansen changed forcings very signficantly. As I noted, in his latest paper, he chooses to set total aerosol forcing equal to to 1/2 that of GHG forcing (opposite sign of course). Obviously, this has the effect of reducing the net forcings by that amount. On the other hand, for the AR4 runs of GISS E, they more or less flatlined the aerosols from 1990 onward. So each incremental additional GHG forcing post-1990 would have full effect. In other words, he effectively cut the post-1990 GHG forcings in half by waving a magic wand. This 50% reduction in net forcings for GH gases post-1990 makes for a better match to the observed OHC. I have not been able to find a listing of detailed breakout of aerosol forcings for Hansen 2011, which would allow me to see if the choice to set aersol to -0.5 GHG forcing was as arbitrary as it appears. -
adelady at 12:37 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
cloa513 "...not able to evaluate whatever precise AGW hypothesis is formed. A theory is more vague than a hypothesis." John, any other contributing writer, anyone who cares. I've just done a quick topic search on here for 'theory' and 'hypothesis' and didn't come up with anything directly relevant. (But a fair bit on consensus.) One constant skeptic/ denier/ contrarian theme is this silly dictionary diving, thesaurus stretching argy-bargy on personal interpretations of words like law, theory, hypothesis. They're often alluded to in posts and comments, but I think it would be a worthwhile rebuttal in its own right. "Only a Theory" or some such title would be a handy addition to the short titled references. I realise that you're all just sitting around idly waiting for suggestions on how to occupy your time, but someone might put this on the to-do list.Moderator Response: (DB) Beware of suggestions (that's how I came to be a part of this great adventure). That's a good idea. Would you like to write a guest post on it? -
Camburn at 12:33 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Tom: From Dr. Trenbeth's email: " Roger I don’t believe any of the current dozen or so estimates of ocean heat content are correct. The TOA estimates are probably closer to being correct but they too have problems. The data may be robust since 2005 but the analysis methods are not. Kevin" As I have stated, there are problems with OHC. I will just leave it at that as I will show you evidence, but I am not going to try to force you to think outside of the box per se. -
cloa513 at 12:26 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
The IPCC never did rigorous scientific analysis because they were never set to do that- They were set up to summarise the scientfic record which is not the same thing. If there was such a massive paper (it would have to be a meta-study), Skeptical Science would leap to point to it. The IPCC was a massive opportunity wasted to either prove or disprove or more likely indicate that the scientific tools/data is not able to evaluate whatever precise AGW hypothesis is formed. A theory is more vague than a hypothesis. -
Camburn at 12:25 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Tom: I have to let others who are immenently qualified speak clearer than I can I guess: I do think that Pielke Sr, Dr. Trenbeth and Josh Willis have a pretty good idea of what they are talking about: http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/further-feedback-from-kevin-trenberth-and-feedback-from-josh-willis-on-the-ucar-press-release/ -
Camburn at 12:12 PM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Tom@11: The discussion is on a link provided by Dana 1981. No, it is not the dislike of the conclusion. It is the probability the conclusions are correct that is in question. I refer you to the link. -
bbickmore at 12:04 PM on 23 May 2011Roy Spencer’s Latest Silver Bullet
Hi Charlie, I used the GISS data through 2003, because that's all I could find, but for the next few years I just digitized the data from Spencer's graph. I don't know where he got it, or if he just extrapolated. -
camandjac at 11:56 AM on 23 May 2011CO2 limits will harm the economy
I am new to this site and am yet to get my head around a lot of what I am reading. I do want to protect the environment, I would love to see more effort being put into renewable resources. Taxing carbon might be the best way on paper. The part that makes it so scary for me is the ongoing greed of big business. I fear that the cost of living will increase dramatically due to their greed, not based on the logically put predictions made by those proposing the solution. -
Tom Curtis at 11:35 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Camburn @10, the appropriate conclusion when you claim that Schukmann has problems in her paper but do not link to a discussion of those problems is that this is just hand waving, and you are rejecting the paper solely based on your dislike of the conclusions. -
Tom Curtis at 11:33 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Camburn @7: Your memory fails you:"The basic materials for this study are the monthly gridded fi elds of temperature and salinity properties of the upper 2000m over the period 2003-2008. These fi elds were obtained by optimal analysis of the large in-situ data set provided by the Argo array of profi ling oats (www.argo.net). Complementary measurements from drifting buoys,CTDs and moorings are also used. Two important data sets have been excluded from the analysis because of proven or suspected biases. They are fi rst, the XBTs and XCTDs for which uncertainties in the accuracy of the fall rate remain, and second, a small subset of Argo float profi les of type SOLO (Sounding Oceanographic Lagrangian Observer) that suff er a labelling error in the pressure [Willis et al., 2007]. The data set was downloaded from the Coriolis data center (one of Argo Global Data Acquisition Center, GDAC) at three dates: the period 2003-2006 was extracted in August 2007, the year 2007 in January 2008 and the year 2008 in February 2009. In total, the Argo measurements account for at least 90% in 2003 and increase to more than 95% since 2006."
As you can see, all XBT and XCTD profiles where excluded because of uncertainties related to the pressure at each data point. ARGO profiles for which there was similar uncertainty were also excluded. I am sure that, being consistent, you would want all the XBT profiles included if and only if you were to include ARGO profiles of uncertain pressure readings are also excluded. Or do you just want to cherry pick? -
Camburn at 10:39 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Bern: My comments on OHC were derived from what was written in the post: "The informed reader will notice that so-called climate skeptics very seldom mention the ocean in their quest against the AGW theory, since doing so would severely impact their conclusions." I still stand that OHC of 0-700 meters is flat to negative. I have not read parker yet, so I will not comment on his paper. Schuckman has problems in his paper. I had read it earlier, and will do so again. However, I will not discuss it on this thread as it is considered off topic. -
Bern at 10:25 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Thanks for the article, julienx2k2. As you state, a classic example of why what the 'skeptics' are doing is not science. It would interesting to see if a rebuttal argument, demonstrating why the BHS opinion piece was incorrect, was able to be published in the same newspaper, or whether editorial policy only provides 'balance' when it suits their agenda (as seems to be the case in many media outlets around the world). Re the 8 off-topic comments above: I, too, struggled to make any connection between the article and a discussion of OHC. Camburn's first comment strikes me as a typical denier misdirection away from the demonstrated flaws in the anti-AGW case ("Look over here at this super-strong floodgate, don't pay any attention to the torrent pouring out of that crack in the dam over there"). The SkS comments policy clearly states that off-topic comments are not permitted. Perhaps a slightly firmer moderation policy needs to be enforced, with such posts deleted? It might reduce the thread hijacking that goes on sometimes. -
Marcus at 10:16 AM on 23 May 2011Carter Confusion #1: Anthropogenic Warming
"Nevertheless, discussion of ACSC and John's membership therein isn't relevant to this topic, so let's leave it at that." Well I only mentioned it because both he *and* Bob Carter are part of this Group, so I thought everyone should know...but you're right, Dana, I won't say anything more on the subject. -
Marcus at 10:06 AM on 23 May 2011Shapiro et al. – a New Solar Reconstruction
Actually, if we look at Figure #2, there is a reasonable correlation between TSI & Climate between 600AD & 1600AD. From around 600AD to around 1300AD, we see TSI sitting around the 1365-1368 W/Square meter range. Then from around 1500AD to almost 1900AD, it bobs around the 1358-1364 W/Square meter range. So the higher TSI correlates well to the Medieval Warm Period, whilst the lower TSI's correlates well to the Little Ice Age. Now of course these are only *proxies*, so I don't expect to see *perfect* correlations. Also, we *know* other factors were involved in both these Climatic Events (principally volcanic activity). So I really don't see where Camburn is coming from. Also, though, the Shapiro reconstruction shows quite clearly that, though temperatures today are currently *warmer* than at the height of the Medieval Warm Period, TSI is currently *lower* than the average for that time period. Kind of goes a long way towards ruling out the Sun as the cause of current warming, wouldn't you say? -
Marcus at 09:51 AM on 23 May 2011Carter Confusion #1: Anthropogenic Warming
...oh, & Ian Plimer is in the ACSC as well. They do say that you can judge a man by the company he keeps....doesn't say much for John Nicol, I must say. -
Marcus at 09:47 AM on 23 May 2011Carter Confusion #1: Anthropogenic Warming
Hey guys, should just warn you that John Nicol is a member of the Australian Climate Science Coalition-which also has such "august" individuals as William Kinnimonth, John McLean (of "hide the incline" fame) and, of course, Bob Carter himself (hence John's very spirited defense). This organization is a typical Denialist Organization, with strong ties to the Lavoisier Group, whose sole goal is to prevent any meaningful action on Climate Change via the use of pseudo-science-like the stuff this very article focuses on. As such, I think its fair to say that any future contributions by John will be equally irrelevant & equally unscientific.Response:[dana1981] Not just a member, but the chairman, assuming it's the same John Nicol. Coincidentally, I just took the ACSC "climate quiz", and wow, talk about incredibly misleading. Nevertheless, discussion of ACSC and John's membership therein isn't relevant to this topic, so let's leave it at that.
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Marcus at 09:36 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
You know, back when I was doing my Year 12 (c1990), we were taught about Anthropogenic Global Warming-in our Chemistry & Physics Class-in a very matter-of-fact way. No polarization, no controversy, it was just taught as a logical outgrowth of basic chemistry (CxHx + O2 = CO2 + H2O) & the physics of the C=O bond in relation to absorption of Infrared Radiation. The same goes with Genetics & Evolution. Judging from apirate's comments, though, the current crop of teachers seem to think its "cool" to cast doubt on the basic science by allowing debate of even the most crack-pot ideas, or to otherwise allow their personal bias to influence how the teach. That might be acceptable in subjects like Drama, English or Music-which are open to subjectivity & opinion, but not subjects like Maths, Physics, Biology or Chemistry. -
scaddenp at 09:26 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
And is the "skeptical" opinion of the students based on published scientific research - or on what they have read on some pseudo-skeptic website? The problem here is that high-school students do not have skills, nor domain knowledge to sort out the lies on such sites, even with skepsci to help them because they cannot evaluate conflicting sources of information. It will come down to a "trust" issue and that will likely follow the beliefs of their "tribe". -
Alexandre at 09:17 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
apiratelooksat50 Do you consider to be adequate to teach students about HIV being the cause of AIDS, including the ways to avoid infection, or would you prefer a "balanced" approach? A Dr. Gallo and a Dr. Duesberg say the HIV-hypothesis is a hoax, and AZT is in fact the cause of the disease. Should teachers go for this "balance"? Why? -
Stephen Baines at 09:13 AM on 23 May 2011Carter Confusion #1: Anthropogenic Warming
John I think dana's post is very focussed on the evidence actually. There is some frustration, but partly that results from watching a good scientist makes such obvious mistakes in public. Sticking to the evidence, which of dana's criticisms of Carter's statements do you specifically take issue with and why? BTW Best to take it a step at a time because people can't respond substantively to long lists of points - not to mention the moderators will get angry. Also, if you have extensive comments related to a preexisting section (likely in this case given that Carter is proposing ideas that have been dealt with in detail here) its best to post a short summary here that points to that appropriate section and post a proper summary there. That does no constitute exile; you will be found and it ensures that your point doesn't get lost. -
Michael Hauber at 09:07 AM on 23 May 2011Lindzen Illusion #2: Lindzen vs. Hansen - the Sleek Veneer of the 1980s
Thinking some more about the possibility that we are following scenario C due to an aerosol boom, I note that land temperatures have continued to rise in the last 10 years, and the gap between land and ocean temps has also increased. This suggests that even over the last 5 or so years external forcing is still firmly in warming mode, and that ocean variability has led to the current short term pause. And it would appear that Co2 forcing is high enough to completely offset any aerosol cooling due to any impact by China, and the solar minimum. -
Albatross at 09:00 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Dana, Camburn seems to wandering off topic again and arguing strawmen. OHC is not relevant/critical to this story as far as I can tell. But is he claims to be so interested might I suggest that he add von Shuckmann and Le Traon (2011) to his list of reading. Now back to the topic at hand please?Response:[dana1981] Agreed, as I suggested in #2, further discussion of OHC should go in 'oceans are cooling'.
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chris at 08:51 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
apiratelooksat50 at 07:36 AM on 23 May, 2011 "....The various science departments at that school are heavily slanted towards support of the AGW theory. However, the faculty at the state university of about 30,000 students generally leans toward support of natural causes of GW. " Seems a little perverse to me. Does the state uni have science departments? Can you tell us which State you're referring to? I'd be interested in looking at the publications of the relevant science faculty. There's really little question that 20th century and contemporary global warming is dominated by anthropogenic contributions. It's not a subject that there is much doubt about. The last century has seen a truly massive amount of excess energy in the climate system, and there simply isn't any sensible evidence for natural causes (which "natural causes"?). The enhanced energy must be the result of an external forcing, and there simply isn't another possible source for this. So if an entire uni faculty have come to some contrary collective decision on this, there's something a little skew-whiff! -
actually thoughtful at 08:50 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
Apiratelooksat50 - what appears to be missing from your comments is your self-knowledge that as a personal denier of global warming, you are deeply biased in your presentations to your students. Thus your first attempt is "controversy" - when there is none. Even "polarizing" is not particularly correct. There are those who go where the science leads them (even if it is uncomfortable) and those who continue to find controversy and polarization where none exists. The problem, of course, is that your students suffer. Teach reality, not your own personal anti-science prejudices (as you have previously shared here on skepticalscience). -
Camburn at 08:40 AM on 23 May 2011Humlum is at it again
Dana1981: The Schuckmann paper threw out some ARGO data, and if memory serves me, used a combination of xbt and ARGO. The xbt data is so prone to error that for specifics it is not very reliable. I have not read Purkey and Johnson, but will have to do so. Thank you.Response:[dana1981] regardless of what you think of XBT data, it is data. I accept your withdrawal of your previous comment.
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Albatross at 08:40 AM on 23 May 2011Shapiro et al. – a New Solar Reconstruction
Camburn, Your comments do not appear to have anything to do with Dana's posts about reconstructions of TSI. If you want to talk about GCR's or clouds then please go to the appropriate threads. -
Albatross at 08:38 AM on 23 May 2011Shapiro et al. – a New Solar Reconstruction
Dana @11, Good points. But, is this thread not about TSI. IIRC, there is no firm relationship between TSI and GCRs. But please correct me if I am wrong about that. Riccardo @10, INdeed. What is more, they found evidence of a possible weak relationship over the mid-latitudes, that does not speak to or explain recentfrom increasing GHG concentrations. Response:[dana1981] Well, TSI and GCRs are reasonably well correlated, but you're right that it's off topic here. I think Camburn is trying to look for some other solar effect to blame recent warming on, but at least he's not trying to blame it on TSI.
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Camburn at 08:36 AM on 23 May 2011Shapiro et al. – a New Solar Reconstruction
No, I am not suggesting the GCR are a huge driver of climate. I was trying to show that TSI is not the only item that the sun provides or shields that affects climate. As far as low clouds, there is question as to whether they are a driver or feedback. This has to do with OHT etc. -
jonicol at 08:36 AM on 23 May 2011Carter Confusion #1: Anthropogenic Warming
I was only attempting to change the approach here to one of more genuine debate on the science which Bob Carter is proposing, as a very experienced (thirty five years) paleo-geologist whose work has centred on past climate for millions of years worth of records, I believe he understands much more about climate than you give him credit for. As a "marine" geologist, he spends his time on marine expeditions which are internationally funded, drilling for both deep and shallow cores - in the ocean floor - with which to study past climates and other geological history. Your article stated that it was intended to examine "In this first installment, we will examine Carter's claims that there is no evidence that the observed global warming is man-made.. ". I was simply responding, I thought, to that comment in the article. Your phrase "Carter seems to attempt to jam as many climate myths into as few words as possible, interspersed with a lot of empty political rhetoric and the usual misunderstanding of climate economics..." suggests that you are criticising the person, not his statements and seems to me to move at least to the edge if not outside your own guidelines. I would like to hear your comments on the newest "climate scientist" to enter the debate, Ross Garnaut. John NicolResponse:[dana1981] Where exactly do you see Carter proposing "a more geniune debate"? If you read his article, it's hard to find any such proposal. What Carter does is repeat a whole bunch of long-debunked myths which have no scientific basis. That's an attack on the content of the article, not the man.
I have no doubt that Carter has done some good research in the field of marine geology. But that doesn't mean he gets a pass when he publishes error-riddled and politically-tinged (to put it lightly) climate-related articles like this one.
As for Garnaut, we comment on science, not on individuals. If you would like to ask a question about a particular statement Garnaut has made, we would be happy to answer it.
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Bob Lacatena at 08:36 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
apiratelooksat50, Can you find a "skeptical" site that you consider to demonstrate good science? Just one? One that demonstrates the science in a balanced way, with no games, no tricks, no misrepresentations, no blatant falsehoods? If you find one, let me know. If you can't... that sort of says something, doesn't it? -
Riccardo at 08:18 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
I tell my students to be strongly selective for their sources, expecially on the internet. -
Stephen Baines at 08:18 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
Apirat @60 I'm actually interested in what specific part or section of skeptical science you think is not scientifically founded? As Dana points out, taking a position on an issue is not, in and of itself, a sign of being slanted in a scientific sense. Is there a post or a section that you think seems to not reflect a proper summary or evaluation of the evidence? -
dana1981 at 08:15 AM on 23 May 2011Shapiro et al. – a New Solar Reconstruction
To be fair, I think Camburn is suggesting that low clouds are a huge driver of climate (which is untrue - they are a potentially significant feedback, but not a driver). I don't think he's suggesting that GCRs are a huge driver of climate. At least I hope not, since the scientific literature strongly indicates otherwise, and the paper he references likewise discusses "little ( 0.088 C/decade) systematic change in temperature at mid-latitudes has occurred over the last 50 years." -
dana1981 at 08:08 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
apiratr #60 - with all due respect, again you seem to favor teaching the controversy to teaching the science. A "neutral" stance is not always a correct one. For example, if I were teaching a biology class, I would refer my students to websites which examine the science behind evolutionary theory, not websites with "neutral" stances which also present Creationist arguments. Same for flat Earthers, those who think the Earth is the center of the universe, or only 6,000 years old, etc. Some arguments are just wrong and have no place in a science class because they are not based on scientific evidence. -
apiratelooksat50 at 07:47 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
ProfMandia @ 55, With all due respect, how about links to sites that are relatively neutral on their stance where merely the science is shown? I would never tell my students to only get their information from either SkepSci, or WUWT. I teach 3 classes of a fairly technical level Environmental Science class, 2 of College Prep Biology and 1 of Honors Chemistry. As you know, there are certain things that students of different abilities can do. With my Honors Chemistry class (regardless of the subject) I make sure I supply them with various sites for their research, and they invariably find others which are added to our list. They at least have the opportunity to see all sources of information. -
apiratelooksat50 at 07:39 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
Barnes @ 53 I can't tell you why there is a difference between my experiences and yours. I'm sure we are both being honest. I would like to see a formal poll on the matter. And, point taken on your last paragraph. We do exactly that. -
apiratelooksat50 at 07:36 AM on 23 May 2011Skeptical Science Educates My Students
JD @ 52 You are spot on on your observation about emotions beginning to rule the closer it gets to humans. I have had the same experience time and time again. The statement, "I didn't come from a monkey!" is what I often hear. I respond by saying, "I never said you came from a monkey. But, you do share a common ancestor with a monkey." Your observations on how people arrive at their opinions on the AGW issue is also very interesting. That could go to great lengths explaining the divide between liberalism and conservatism and their stances on this issue (and others). I teach at a very large public high school in the American south. Our school district has 3 high schools, and our county has at least 10 high schools with which we regularly interact with other faculty members. And, of course we see many more during the summer in our continuing education courses. Interestingly, of the two universities I work with the most in getting CEUs or placing students, one has 18,000 students and is just up the road. The various science departments at that school are heavily slanted towards support of the AGW theory. However, the faculty at the state university of about 30,000 students generally leans toward support of natural causes of GW. There exist somewhere a survey conducted at all the state colleges on this subject and I will see if I can find it. Neither school is religious based or labeled liberal or conservative. I have an idea on the difference, but I am interested in hearing your opinion first.
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