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Comments 95951 to 96000:

  1. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech: "I have yet to see any hard numbers on peer-reviewed papers that explicitly endorse AGW." Well done Poptech, it seems you understand science at least to a certain degree. Why would a research paper endorse AGW?? Science funding isn't largely to prove AGW, the majority of climate science funding is to improve knowledge about climate. As a result of that research, we understand the climate and that understanding shows warming! I suppose your comment could also show that you are ignorant on the subject, but I'll let others decide.
  2. Meet The Denominator
    Dont think this is ad hom as it goes to the heart of his credibility Donald Poptech is exaggerating his qualifications when he claims to be a computer scientist. Those of us who know him of old know he’s a computer technician- Dell A+, not university. —- Well then he fits right in with Ball & so many other Deniers who specialize in resume stretching [actually Eli is polite to the point of being inaccurate to call it “stretching” … in many cases it is outright fabrication.
  3. Meet The Denominator
    Marcus, the funniest part about Beck's article is that Arthur Rörsch, involved in the journal and that particular article, claimed it was the most thoroughly peer reviewed paper of E&E. And still it contained clear and unacknowledged problematic issues, which even a cursory reading would reveal to anyone *critically* reading the paper.
  4. Meet The Denominator
    Plenty of stuff like this on the internet, “Poptech's again referring to his own self-publi­­­­shed "popularte­­c­hnology­" webpages, which are riddled with disinforma­­­­­tion and lies. For example, when are you going to remove the following patent, science denier tabloid-so­­­­­urced lie* from your "popularte­­­chnology­" webpages, Poptech? "Climatega­­­­­te U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995" Oh, right - as you Poptech have repeatedly told us you are "never" going to remove that lie, thus demonstrat­­­­­ing that you have no intent or interest in promoting the truth about climate science.
  5. Meet The Denominator
    You know, as much as PopTech tries to defend E&E, the facts just don't support him. Here is a classic example of the kind of "quality research" that E&E lends its name to-you might recall the work of the Biology Teacher, E-G Beck, who collated the works of early (19th Century) chemists (who were studying ways to quantify CO2) & claiming his reconstructions of this data "proved" that CO2 levels were higher than in the mid to late 20th century. Of course he failed to mention that (a) the methods used to quantify CO2 had much higher margins of error than today's methods & (b) that all the samples were collected at surface level, & most were collected in urban environments with high levels of CO2 (from factories & wood fires). Of course, none of these obvious problems prevented E&E from publishing this piece of bilge. Which, of course, simply reinforces the view that E&E is only interested in pushing *propaganda*-not in advancing science.
  6. Meet The Denominator
    and they never reference one of PT's papers,actual link to the site and pdf, only he does that they will give a link to what some fool like watts has cherry picked out of it, we finally got Cox to give the actual papers but it was nearly all over by then, must admit though it was good fun playing with PT's mind but that is another story
  7. Meet The Denominator
    "McShane and Wyner’s paper demolishing the centrepiece of AGW science, the Hockey-stick". This, also, is highly deceptive. None of the contrarian papers have come close to proving that the *adjusted* "hockey stick" is wrong-& several papers, using better methodologies, have actually further reinforced the adjusted hockey stick-i.e. that though the planet has warmed in the past, it was neither as warm as today, nor did it warm as fast as it has in the last 60 years. Of course, the added deception is that debunking the hockey stick would somehow demolish AGW, given that pre-industrial warming doesn't rule out anthropogenic warming now-especially given that all the natural forcings suggest the planet should be *cooling*, not warming!
  8. Meet The Denominator
    "McKitrick’s paper demolishing another centre-piece of AGW, the Tropical Hot Spot". This, of course, displays the deception engaged in by PopTech. Even if the Tropical Hot Spot were a center-piece of AGW (it isn't, as the Hot Spot is meant to exist *regardless* of global warming) then McKitrick's paper wouldn't successfully demolish it, as McKitrick hasn't even proven that the Hot Spot doesn't exist-only that its very difficult to find with current technology. So, if this is the kind of "standard" of PopTech's much vaunted list, then no wonder he's not prepared to provide evidence to further back his list.
  9. Bjarne Mikael Torkveen at 19:54 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    I am amazed at the hypocrisy of the climate deniers in the case of these lists. They constantly say that science is not made by consensus, and yet here we have to examples (OISM and PopTech) of climate deniers trying to...build a consensus.
  10. Meet The Denominator
    This is how Cox references a paper http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/43878.html "McShane and Wyner’s paper demolishing the centrepiece of AGW science, the Hockey-stick, McKitrick’s paper demolishing another centre-piece of AGW, the Tropical Hot Spot and Koutsoyiannis’s follow-up paper showing the AGW computer models have no predictive skill." then claimed that he included correct references but the dog ate them
  11. Meet The Denominator
    The only purpose served by this list is for deniers to make the claim that there are 850 papers that,and they always use the words refute or deny or are sceptical of or disprove, when you ask them to post one then it will usually be one of these as posted at abc unleased by Cox Lindzen and Choi’s follow up paper: http://www.legnostorto.com/allegati/Lindzen_Choi_ERBE_JGR_v4.pdf Spencer and Braswell: http://noconsensus.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/spencer-braswell-jgr-20101.pdf Knox and Douglass: http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~douglass/papers/KD_InPress_final.pdf Miskolczi’s revised paper: http://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/E&E_21_4_2010_08-miskolczi.pdf McShane and Wyner and the Hockey-stick: http://www.imstat.org/aoas/next_issue.html McKitrick and the hot-spot: http://rossmckitrick.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/8/4808045/mmh_asl2010.pdf Koutsoyiannis and model prediction failures: http://pdfserve.informaworld.com/278978__928051726.pdf they will never cite the ones that do not even dispute AGW, useless list that I would not even bother to debate, with a few more definitions he could probably claim 3000 , that was how it went from 500 to 850, So when the say there are 850 papers that...........AGW just ask them to post one , they wont .. just like these papers above the list is useless rubbish
  12. Meet The Denominator
    Also, if I put all of the above terms into quotation marks, then I still pull out about 600,000 hits. Again, how does the 850 papers, which we're just supposed to *assume* support the skeptic case, stack up? Not very well I'd say, which is why [ -Snip- ] PopTech, is so keen to distract attention away from the weakness of his original list by attacking others.
    Moderator Response: [DB] Not helpful (keep it clean).
  13. Meet The Denominator
    Gee Poptech, if I type in Anthropogenic Global Warming into Google Scholar (with patents de-selected) I get roughly 70,000 hits. When I type in Human Induced Climate Change, I get over 700,000 hits, & 150,000 if I use the term Anthropogenic Climate Change. So, if we combine all 3 term searches, we're looking at around 1 *million* references to anthropogenic climate change/warming. Again, if even one percent of those are peer-reviewed, pro-AGW papers, that still leaves 10,000 papers that support the position of AGW. Makes your list of 850 look absolutely *pathetic*-especially given that many of the papers you cite are poorly peer-reviewed or don't even support the pro-skeptic position you claim it does. Still, I've often found that the vehemence of a defense of a position is often inversely proportional to how strong that position is-something that you've definitely proven here today. Especially given that most of your counter-points have consisted of nothing more than unfounded accusations against others, & absolutely *no* attempt to strengthen your original claim with actual hard *evidence*!
  14. Meet The Denominator
    "So now when a paper mentions "climate change" it really means that the origin is anthropogenic? Talk about spin!" Not at all Poptech. It stands to reason that you would have to do some major analysis to separate the wheat from the chaff. The problem with your reasoning is that you imply that there is not much 'wheat' to be sifted. "I do not have mind reading abilities and thus have no way to infer what is not explicitly stated and neither do you." Irrelevant. It is your responsibility, not to read minds, but to do some hard work to come out with an accurate assessment of the situation. Instead, semantics is used as a rhetorical shield. Bottom line, it is absurd to imagine that several thousand Climatologists, throughout the past several decades have not turned out at least tens of thousands of papers supportive or indicative of man made climate change versus your claimed 850. Are we to be naive enough to believe that 850 papers on the "skeptic" side are countered only by (implicit in your arguments) a fraction of 1900 papers on the "other side"? As far as your statement that my concept of "fair" is subjective, I guess that trying to balance both sides is your idea of subjective. But then a visit to your website made it clear where you're coming from.
  15. Meet The Denominator
    1) If only one out of a hundred of the Google Scholar articles was peer reviewed, the number would still be over ten times as large as PopTech's list. 2) If you search for attribution anthropogenic pdf "global warming" OR "climate change" and require "at least summaries", it will give you results on an important subset of climate change science (attribution) with a link to a PDF somewhere in the results. You can bet that these results overwhelmingly come from peer reviewed sources. The number is twice as large as PopTech's list, despite being a tiny fraction of all the papers on climate change. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=attribution+anthropogenic+pdf... 3) The "Oregon Petition" has been collecting names for over ten years and anyone with a BS and a pulse could respond. Since it is a petition and not a survey, respondents were limited only to one response (i.e. agreeing with the petition) which immediately filters out anyone who doesn't agree. It alleges to have signatures of 40 self described "climate scientists." Those 40 climate scientists represent about 0.1% of the total names on the list. The Doran/EOS survey had about twice as many climate scientists (77-79 depending on the question), all active, despite a limited number of recipients (all Earth scientists). The number of climate scientists agreeing with the consensus position represented about 2% of the total respondents, which is ~20 times larger than the 0.1% described as "climate scientists" in the Oregon Petition. Of all of the respondents, 82% agreed with the consensus position, that number increasing with the relevence of their specific expertise. 4) Only the ideologically blind would see an unparalleled global conspiracy rather than accept the evdidence for the consensus on climate change, to say nothing of the evidence for climate change itself. Such blindness usually revolves around alarmist "new-world-order-we'll-all-eat-tofu-while-we-wait-for-our-death-panel-to-assign-our-fate" rhetoric and no rational examination of the facts. As for alarmism on the consensus side, a 2+ degree temperature change compressed over the coming century might be considered "alarming" for anyone who knows something about similar climate shifts in the past.
  16. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech @81 " Regardless something that does not support AGW Alarm does not mean it has to "refute" it. It can simply not mention it at all!" By that metric any paper written about physics or astronomy (or any other scientific topic) would quality. AWG Alarm will need a definition as well. @82 "So now when a paper mentions "climate change" it really means that the origin is anthropogenic?" I do not believe that anyone made that claim, but were pointing out that you are dismissing a large number of papers that MAY be relevant but do not use the exact phrase "anthropogenic global warming." The relevance could only be decided on a per paper basis. Those that use "climate change" could support, deny, or take no position on the anthropogenic question. In any case this topic has grown very emotionally heated and is not particularly constructive.
  17. Meet The Denominator
    @58, Poptech: Let me join in with the rest and (re)beat a dead horse. What I have created is a valuable resource for skeptics of the peer-reviewed literature supporting their arguments. You still haven't given me a direct answer as to the number of (Non natural) Climate Change peer reviewed papers. Yes, you did state: "I have yet to see any hard numbers on peer-reviewed papers that explicitly endorse AGW. As there are only around 1900 Google Scholar results that even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming"." Yet notice how you limit your "search" to one particular phrase which is not likely to be used in most papers that would support the concept of AGW regardless of semantics. Most of them are likely to use the phrase "Climate Change". So you justify your selectivity in phrases by saying: "It doesn't count as in explicit support of "anthropogenic global warming" theory, correct. You seem to have made it obvious by the above quote that you are not only disinterested in knowing the ratio of pro versus con, regardless of phrasing, but that there is a simple agenda in this project. Give one side what it wants. You called it "a valuable resource" but it is clear that the value has to do with the illusion of substance. If numbers meant anything, a fair assessment would be to include the numbers of both sides. A one sided count is obviously misleading, since it is targeted at the general public who would be impressed by any number in the hundreds but ignorant of the tens of thousands of papers that would support AGW (Again, a reminder. It doesn't matter that the exact phrase AGW is not mentioned in the paper). This is, to put it bluntly, propaganda.
  18. Philippe Chantreau at 17:19 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    Now Poptech is trying to play in words. You said "does not support" with an implication that it treated of it, which is equivalent to refuting, except perhaps in some rethorician's twisted mind. What are we going to talk about next? The meaning of "is"? This is extending beyond pathetic. You should cut your losses PT.
  19. Miriam O'Brien (Sou) at 17:18 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    Rob, I don't think too many people are taken in by poptech's 'list'. It's true that deniers occasionally quote it as a 'proof', but less and less often these days because it's so easy to show that it's as meaningless as the fraudulent oregon petition. When the list was only 450, Greenfyre wrote this. When poptech dredged up a few more titles to add to his list, articles like this one appeared. Does anyone (except poptech himself) take him seriously these days? Most deniers have now had to turn themselves into delayers because the evidence for anthropogenic global warming is so patently obvious to everyone, so people like poptech have been left behind and mostly forgotten. I expect poptech is grateful that anyone on this site remembers he exists.
  20. Philippe Chantreau at 17:14 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    "This is just a theory of mine based on researching this." The initial for that are BS. If you can't substantiate, keep it to yourself. That post should be deleted, as it is a sweeping accusation against many people. I read from you that your research led you to discover many such papers (i.e. your list) and you claimed that only a small portion is in E&E. You're really a funny guy. And by the way, the words I attributed to SBC are her own. E&E is not worth a rabbit's turd to anyone doing real science, whether you like it or not. Your Gish gallop here is entertaining but makes as much sense as Monckton's self contradictory ramblings. Have a nice life in fantasy land.
  21. Meet The Denominator
    #71: Sorry, your basic premise of irrefutable demonstration was just refuted. QED.
  22. Meet The Denominator
    #64: Can't have it both ways, PT. Your criterion was "it is literally impossible for a paper to endorse something it does not even mention" and thus you came up with 1900 papers. There are 47700 mentions, better start going through 'em all to see who supports what.
  23. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Not a straw man at all. I'm just trying to clarify your position.
  24. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... I'm sorry but there is not a wide body of research refuting AGW. You've managed to qualify yourself into a very tiny little corner.
  25. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "It doesn't count as in explicit support of "anthropogenic global warming" theory, correct." Ah. Climate change has nothing to do with anthropogenic global warming? Is this right?
  26. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "If the list was so meaningless we would not be having this discussion." What is meaningful is the fact that you are creating a red herring that is suggesting to people that there is a wide body of research that contradicts climate change. All I've done is put your list in a broader perspective. Sorry if that's inconvenient for your.
  27. Meet The Denominator
    #56: "only around 1900 papers even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming"" Or not. Try anthropogenic "global warming" (quotes as shown), you get 47700 hits on Scholar.
  28. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "I just irrefutably demonstrated that only around 1900 papers even include the phrase "anthropogenic global warming". Thus it is literally impossible for a paper to endorse something it does not even mention." Hm, so by your standard a paper that mentions "climate change" doesn't count. A paper has to specifically use the term "anthropogenic global warming?" Fascinating.
  29. Miriam O'Brien (Sou) at 16:37 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    @ poptech, who said: "This is just a theory of mine based on researching this." Poptech, are you going to publish your research in E&E or on your own website? I'd be very interested in seeing the data (if any) that you have based your 'theory' upon. Perhaps your 'theory' is only a hypothesis of yours and you have not yet collected any data one way or another. Sorry, mods. I've had a bit of fun since poptech has joined in and has highlighted how far he is willing to go in his unscrupulous mischief. He is targeting those lacking basic research skills who are of a denialist bent. Not sure why he thinks anyone on this website would fall for his transparent 'tricks'.
  30. Crichton's 'Aliens Cause Global Warming'
    RSVP, to the best of my knowledge, you've yet to display a "spirit of open-mindedness". To date you've provided absolutely *nothing* to the debate beyond pseudo-scientific bunkum, word-games & contrariness for its own sake. I've always had a very open mind about the cause of recent global warming, yet still have yet to see any remotely convincing argument for a cause other than rising greenhouse gas emissions. As you have also failed to provide even remotely convincing evidence, I'm still left with the view that humans are responsible for current warming-that's something that your increasingly pointless posts cannot change.
  31. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "All published papers are rigorously peer-reviewed." Really? Hm, the rest of the scientific community doesn't seem to agree with that position.
  32. Meet The Denominator
    #40: "papers supporting the 1,500 year climate theory" Funny how if you search Google Scholar using "1500 year climate theory" in quotes, you get 0 results. "1500 year climate cycle" gets a measly 2 pages, mostly Singer, Loehle and company. But I always thought it was the quality of the papers, not the quantity of papers that counted.
  33. Meet The Denominator
    Angusmac @ 46 - I am glad that Einstein ignored the numbers that were stacked against him when he came up with the theory of relativity and challenged the ruling paradigm of Newtonian physics. Your history is a little fuzzy. Einstein developed ideas put forward by others years earlier. You could research this stuff you know.
  34. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... ".Do you always fail to read everything you attempt to "analyze"? ..." What you do in qualifying your list this way is essentially render it meaningless. Basically what you've done is stated that whatever you say goes regardless of any outside normalcy. You've created your own alternate universe that has no bearing on the world the rest of us live in.
  35. Meet The Denominator
    angusmac AGW has mountains of measured data. If the doubters intend to overturn the established order they had best get to work producing some numbers and data of their own. It can be done, if your doubt is science based.
  36. Meet The Denominator
    "The papers supporting the 1,500 year climate theory are include because that is one of the skeptic's theories." A theory, Poptech, needs *evidence*-& the evidence for the 1,500 year climate "cycle" is weak & often contradictory. That you included these unproven hypotheses in your list of peer-reviewed articles merely highlights the weakness of your original claims. Equally weak is your claim that other journals arbitrarily refuse papers written by skeptics-when all the evidence proves that skeptic papers *are* published in these journals *if* they meet the basic standards of peer review. What E&E does is abandon those standards in order to promote its skeptical agenda-hardly something I'd be keen to put forward to promote my case.
  37. Meet The Denominator
    I am glad that Einstein ignored the numbers that were stacked against him when he came up with the theory of relativity and challenged the ruling paradigm of Newtonian physics. It only needs one person to be right. The AGW paradigm may be correct but it will not be proven by numbers – it will only be proven by facts that are shown to comply with measured data.
  38. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "...she simply does not arbitrarily refuse papers because they come from a skeptic as other journals do." In other words, E&E does not bother to thoroughly review their published papers, unlike other journals.
  39. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech If you are going to claim that other journals "arbitrarily refuse papers because they come from a skeptic" you are going to have to back that up with some evidence.
  40. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech said... "I just would like to point out you scored your own goal regarding the Oregon Petition as you would have to apply the same numerical standards to lists of proponents of AGW." That's not the case because I would never use such absurd standards to evaluate a scientific issue. Would I poll everyone with a BS or better to evaluate a medical procedure? No. The proper way to evaluate a specific scientific issue is to ask the specialists in that field of research. And I'm sure you are quite aware of the results of Doran 2009.
  41. Meet The Denominator
    "You failed to go through every single search result, confirm they were all peer-reviewed papers (not a news item, editorial or letter to the editor) from a peer-reviewed journal, not a duplicate listing and explicitly endorse AGW theory." So sure are you, Poptech. On what basis do you make such a bold claim? How do you know Rob didn't do exactly that? You expect us to take-at your word-your claim to have thoroughly checked all the papers you list as supporting the skeptic position-even though the evidence strongly suggests otherwise, yet you don't afford the same courtesy to Rob or any of the other posters here. Talk about typical denialist hypocrisy.
  42. Meet The Denominator
    "Whether a journal is indexed by them is purely subjective and irrelevant to the peer-review status of the journal." Yet every scientific journal of note is listed in ISI-which clearly means that the *entire* scientific community sees ISI listing is highly relevant-at least as far as peer-review status. In my own field of expertise, nothing short of publication in an ISI listed journal counts towards your publication record. Face facts, you just don't want to admit that E&E is a poorly "peer-reviewed" journal-established for purely ideological reasons-that has delusions of grandeur.
  43. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Sorry you're disappointed with my article but you fail to even listen to the authors of the papers you list regarding their positions on the issue. I don't think you have any room to be pointing fingers in this case. If I were to go through a more rigorous exercise from my side of the issue that would require that I do the same on your side as well, such as evaluating whether E&E can legitimately be considered peer-reviewed. This is a case of, be careful what you ask for.
  44. It cooled mid-century
    #7: "show no significant impact from CO2" That's absolutely incorrect, as the graph below (from NOAA/NCDC clearly shows). Where do you come up with such silliness? And of course, you're off topic. Find the appropriate threads using the search function.
  45. Philippe Chantreau at 15:45 PM on 13 February 2011
    Meet The Denominator
    E&E is the only publication with scientific pretense that acknowledges and even claims a bias toward a certain conclusion in research results. It was created and has been maintained to be "a platform" (Sonia B.C.'s words) for "skeptics." The main criterion is not the work's quality but its intention. That's a pathetic perversion of everything science stands for. How Sonia B.C. managed to have this piece of garbage listed as a peer-reviewed science journal reflects on her relational skills and aptitudes to work the system more than anything else. If it appears in print, it is a rather sad thought that a tree was cut to support this nonsense. Even the pesky junk mail deserves to exist more than this thing.
  46. Meet The Denominator
    Another point, Poptech, is that its *irrelevant* how many proponents/opponents to AGW there are out in the general scientific community-at least as far as true consensus goes. What is relevant is the number of proponents/opponents to AGW there are within the broader climate science community-& the evidence that they have to back their position. To the best of my knowledge, there are as few as a dozen Climate Scientists who do not back the consensus view on AGW-& at least two of those (Lindzen & Choi) are only in disagreement insofar as how bad AGW will get in the future-though the evidence they provide for that position is less than compelling. Based on your list, though, you happily include the papers of these, shall we say, "luke-warmists" in you list of papers to further pad it out. You also have included at least half a dozen papers that claim this is all part of a natural 1500 year cycle-even though there is still NO EVIDENCE to back that view (the last warm period, after all, ended *less* than 1,000 years ago (700 years to be precise), which would mean this supposedly natural "cycle" is a good 800 years early. Even if you take the 1500 years to start from the *beginning* of the last cycle, its still 200 years early). I've not had time to do a full analysis of your list of papers but, if that's the quality of them, then your position is *incredibly weak*!
    Moderator Response: (Daniel Bailey) I had to warn Poptech so I have to warn you, Marcus. Please, no more all-caps. Thanks!
  47. Meet The Denominator
    PopTech... Thanks for stopping in. re: #32... I actually deselected the patent button when I did the search. I also went through the list fairly thoroughly and noted that most all the articles listed were from actual published papers, as I noted.
  48. Meet The Denominator
    "I just would like to point out you scored your own goal regarding the Oregon Petition as you would have to apply the same numerical standards to lists of proponents of AGW. Thus you have done nothing but help support that there is no consensus." Hmmm, this just displays your ongoing, blind ignorance to what scientific consensus actually is. Its not a popularity contest, no matter how much you try & make it so-its about the *scientific evidence* that either backs or debunks an existing theory. To date, though you've been quick to cite those papers that allegedly support skepticism of AGW (even though some are contradictory or don't, in truth, support skepticism as you claim) you've not been honest enough to do your own search of the literature to see how this stacks up against papers that *don't* support AGW skepticism. If you were an honest skeptic, & not merely a propagandist, then you'd have the common decency to do this.
  49. Meet The Denominator
    Poptech - Funny: I get 2020 Google Scholar finds with quotes, 67,700 without.
  50. Meet The Denominator
    You know, Poptech, if I were trying to build a *scientific* case against Global Warming, I'd be very leery about using a journal that isn't ISI listed, & whose editor has publicly admitted that the journal has a "political agenda"-namely backing so-called skepticism. You criticise others-with no evidence-of using non-scientific sources to bolster their argument, yet you've clearly felt a need to pad out your own rather dubious list with the pseudo-scientific nonsense published in E&E-talk about an own goal right there!

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