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JMurphy at 22:39 PM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Pete Ridley wrote : "Some people stick to their beliefs no matter what the evidence." Having read your last few comments here, and your lack of detail (e.g. "scientific hypotheses that are based upon dubious statistical manipulations, unsound assumptions and estimates used as a poor substitutes for a proper understanding about global climate processes and drivers" - are you able to provide more detail and examples), I can only agree with you. And you are also typical of the so-called skeptics in that you prefer one expert above all the others. Why is that ? Does von Storch give you exactly what you want, whereas everyone else doesn't ? And you are typical in that you put words into others' mouths, e.g. "you don’t wish to recognise that significant uncertainty exists about global climate processes and drivers" (to Chris). Can you point out where ? -
LewisC at 22:39 PM on 8 August 2010Three new studies illustrate significant risks and complications with geoengineering climate
batsvensson - you deny that this is a science of public interest, and describe the Swedish acidification impacts and exemplary remediation efforts, but have not explained how ending GHG emissions would be remotely sufficient for controlling the now accelerating interactive positive feedbacks. With society having missed the chance in the '70s to end global warming by ending GHG outputs, are you now advocating a similar 30-yr delay to waste the final opportunity to avoid catastrophic climate destabilisation by the additional means of carbon recovery and temporary albido enhancement ? Regards, Lewis -
chris1204 at 21:35 PM on 8 August 2010Talkin bout the Skeptical Science phone apps
PS: I must confess when I saw the WUWT post that I didn't read it in detail and so I missed the suggestion that you'd turned to the Guardian for help. So in this case, the mountain in fact came to Mohammed (or would Matthew 21: 21 be the more appropriate quote?) Either way, an outbreak of decency is always a good result. -
chris1204 at 21:08 PM on 8 August 2010Talkin bout the Skeptical Science phone apps
I guess you'd have to ask HumanityRules but the thought did cross my mind ;-) -
chris1204 at 20:39 PM on 8 August 2010Talkin bout the Skeptical Science phone apps
Well, John, you've made it into the rough and tumble of WUWT via your Guardian Post (if you haven't featured there already). Congrats for the Guardian - you might have mixed feelings about the former but to be fair, Anthony calls you 'a generally reasonable Aussie.' He feels his apps are doing better than your apps (now, he would say that, wouldn't he) and thanks you for the boost you're giving him. He does defend you against one of his more feral posters saying: REPLY: I don’t think he’s a ‘dimwit’ by any means, and it’s really not a label you should be using. He’s just not very good at understanding mass media and communications, like most scientists. – Anthony It's a bit of backhanded compliment - your (non-carbon) footprint's getting bigger and your site's become a serious contender in the blogosphere. As it very deservedly should be (and has been for some time).Response: Interesting comments thread on WUWT (for the record, the Guardian asked me to write the article, I didn't approach them) and decent of Anthony Watts to defend me. I also think one of the comments there by an enigmatic "HR" might be our own HumanityRules. If I ever do a testimonials page on Skeptical Science, I'll be sure to include:
"I don't think he's a dimwit"
Anthony Watts -
batsvensson at 19:25 PM on 8 August 2010Visually depicting the disconnect between climate scientists, media and the public
Poptech, it is quite inappropriate to ask non-experts in art how quality is defined in art. Is there any art experts here? I dont know, but if one decided to answer I am pretty sure that expert would be able to give you a list of requirements. I would most likely not understand those requirements or how to evaluate them - would you? Every specialist is train in their own field of expertise and know how to evaluate quality objectively in their own field. I know how to evaluate quality in my own filed of expertise, and I can assure you measuring quality is not a matter of subjective opinions but a quantitative process everyone can agree on. We may think experts in other fields are making subjective measurement of quality but that is only because we do not understand on what technical ground they made their evaluation. -
RSVP at 19:14 PM on 8 August 2010Waste heat vs greenhouse warming
doug_bostrom 204 In order to teach an old dog new tricks, they need to be worth learning. Back in this thread, the significance of waste heat was played down by stating numerous times that non-GHGs transfer energy to GHG in the mixture, and that GHG in turn radiate this energy (up and down). In this way, even though non-GHG have very low emissivity, they cool via radiation through GHGs. AGW, on the other hand, attributes global warming to this same process, but in reverse. It is very hard for me (old dog) to see how this waste heat is therefore released if the net flow is supposedly in the opposite direction. How can GHG have a net warming and cooling effect simultaneously? This makes no sense. As a compromise and way to answer this question, I proposed the idea of vector cancellation in favor of overall heating due to AGW, assuming the GHG vector was much larger than the waste heat vector. This leads to the weird idea that the more waste heat, the less effect GHG have in heating. But for saying this, a lot of chaff was raised. -
Pete Ridley at 18:34 PM on 8 August 2010Models are unreliable
Mats (Frick), thanks for advising about "A Vast Machine: Computer Models, Climate Data, and the Politics of Global Warming". I responded on 31st July and 1st August but my comment was removed so I’ve modified it a little and hope it is now acceptable to the moderator. I note that Professor Edwards is not a scientists involved in any of the numerous disciplines contributing to improving our poor understanding of global climate processes and drivers, so I wonder what has convinced him that “I think climate change is real, and I think it is the biggest threat the world faces now and will face for generations to come. ... Climate change is not a matter of opinion, belief, or ideology. This book is about how we came to know what we know about climate — how we make climate knowledge” (Intro xiv). It’s that “climate change is .. the biggest threat the world faces .. “ bit that I disagree with. He makes no mention of “uncertainty” anywhere in that introduction, which makes me suspicious about the extent of his understanding of those processes and drivers and of his environmental activism. I will be getting a copy but as you’ve read most of the book can you tell me if he touches on any of that or the subject of validation. The manner in which Edwards presents what Professor Freeman Dyson said about the reliance on models gives a somewhat different impression to how I interpret them. I’m think that Dyson was referring specifically to computer models rather than models in general. Chapter 13 is the one that I’m most interested in reading – any comments on that, taking into consideration my previous comment here? I’ll have a more careful read after my holiday and get back to you. Best regards, Pete Ridley. -
John Brookes at 18:29 PM on 8 August 2010Talkin bout the Skeptical Science phone apps
Just read the Guardian article. Very nice. You highlight the most obvious contrarian tactic - focus on one thing, and draw conclusions that don't follow. -
batsvensson at 18:23 PM on 8 August 2010Three new studies illustrate significant risks and complications with geoengineering climate
doug_bostrom, It goes beyond my understanding why computer time is wasted on ideas like this. This is no science of public interest, at its best mockery with the subject at worst disconnected from reality. -
Pete Ridley at 18:18 PM on 8 August 2010Why I care about climate change
Jmurphy, ref. comment #115 (and Chris, comment 116), regarding vonStorch, I won’t repeat here what I’ve already said on the “Confidence in climate forecasts” thread so if you wish to pursue that one I look forward to further discussion on that thread. On the mater of AGW v The (significant human-made global climate change) Hypothesis, I thought that I’d already adequately explained that but just for you I’ll repeat what I think I said. Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is in my opinion misleading. I believe that most sceptics accept that humans cause some warming of the globe but do not see convincing evidence that the effect is significant as far as changing global climates are concerned. I didn’t realise that I needed your approval of particular terminology before using it, mistakenly thinking that the blog administrator was the person who had to be satisfied about comment contents. Best regards, Pete Ridley -
Doug Bostrom at 18:04 PM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Pete, what did I say? I think your imagination is getting ahead of you. :-) -
Doug Bostrom at 18:01 PM on 8 August 2010Visually depicting the disconnect between climate scientists, media and the public
RealClimate have censored my comments... I have no interest in improving their worthless paper because you can't, it is flawed by design. If I squint at that really hard, I get some clue as to what the problem may be with you having your remarks appear at RealClimate. They're pretty slack but everybody has limits. -
Pete Ridley at 17:58 PM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
My previous comment lost a little at the end so I repost the last bit. I respectfully suggest that you re-read what I quoted but try doing so a little more slowly and you may see my point about uncertainty more clearly. Of course there is a possibility that you don’t wish to recognise that significant uncertainty exists about global climate processes and drivers. Some people stick to their beliefs no matter what the evidence. -
kdkd at 17:57 PM on 8 August 2010What do you get when you put 100 climate scientists in a room?
poptech #156 This really is tiresome. As the methodology is systematic it is quite reproducible, although I agree that (as with much social research) they may not have explained every part of the data collection process -a problem relating to space constraints in journals . Anyway, another fixed that for you: "I think I have irrefutably demonstrated ..." Again, it seems that the level of discussion, and your 'legend in his own mind' approach suggests that its really not worth engaging you in discussion. -
Pete Ridley at 17:55 PM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Chris, if you don’t find my comment interesting then you don’t have to read them, do you? I wholeheartedly agree with you that “evidence is always preferable to opinion”. If there was convincing evidence I don’t see why von Storch would have considered it necessary to say “I have to admit that I may be wrong with that assessment”. I respectfully suggest that you re-read what I quoted but try doing so a little more slowly and you may see my point about uncertainty more cl -
Pete Ridley at 17:55 PM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
In my comment #74 I inadvertently said in the penultimate paragraph “Gelman then goes on to say .. ”. This should have been “Roberts then ….”. Sorry if I misled anyone. Doug, ref. comment #76, thanks for that link to a very interesting poll of Americans. The most important point about that poll, as for any, is the original questions. I did consider responding to those questions in the way that I think I would have if I’d been included and leave it to you to place me in the appropriate category but this is not the forum. My guess is that I’d be placed in the “concerned” category. If you want to follow this up then let me know via this one and I’ll start a thread on my Global Political Shenanigans blog. I’m puzzled as to why you, despite your acknowledged lack of expertise in the subject (comment #68), “ .. should be equally amenable to the notion that today's weather in Russia is confirmation of climate change .. .”. I would expect you to be aware that abnormal weather events occurring in parts of the world, such as hot spells in central Russia give no indication of global climate change (the topic of this blog I believe). After all, the Russians were experiencing similar conditions “ .. in 1919, 1920, 1936, 1938 and 1972 .. ” (Note 1) so they’ve seen it all before – that’s weather for you. If you have a particular interest in global weather conditions then you may be interested in looking at the Cola Weather and Climate Data site (Note 2). “As you can see, the temperature outlook for the next two weeks for the areas just north and east of the Black Sea is bad to say the least” (Note 3) . but I do like the official disclaimer. “COLA and IGES make no guarantees about and bear no responsibility or liability concerning the accuracy or timeliness of the images being published on these web pages. .. The underlying data are the direct product of the various operational forecast models run by the National Centers for Environmental Prediction, National Weather Service, NOAA and are supplied without interpretation or correction” – and that’s just about forecasting weather, never mind climate change forecasts (don’t forget that the UK Met Office uses the same model for both). We can all expect the cost of a loaf of bread to rocket as a consequence of this weather event. Of course, Yahoo Green has a different take on this (Note 4). Peter (Hogarth) “envisaging possible future climate” is significantly different to predicting them. NOTES: 1) see http://www.kyivpost.com/news/russia/detail/73341/ 2) see http://wxmaps.org/ 3) see http://www.thepoultrysite.com/poultrynews/20637/cme-russian-heatwave-may-spark-wheat-crisis 4) see http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100802/wl_time/08599200808100 Best regards, Pete Ridley -
batsvensson at 17:24 PM on 8 August 2010Three new studies illustrate significant risks and complications with geoengineering climate
LewisC, I come from a country that is known to have the cleanest fresh lakes, soil and air in Europe. Despite this forests was dieing and lakes life was wiped out due to acid rains. Since the 70ties chalk has been dumped in lakes and forest has been spray from the air with chalk powder to combat acid rains and prevent forest and lakes from dying. All this in the cleanest country of Europe – imagine the rest... This and this is what happen. Historical architecture was literally falling apart in front of our very eyes due to acid air pollutions. However, the air in Europe has now been cleaned up to such extent that cupper plated roofs now turn black instead of green, I think I can live with out the greenish cupper plated roofs. We do not need to know more about acid rains than the already known effects to dismiss such an idea as futile. -
Doug Bostrom at 16:51 PM on 8 August 2010Waste heat vs greenhouse warming
Well, that certainly confirms my impressions RSVP. Thanks for the additional insight. -
RSVP at 16:45 PM on 8 August 2010Waste heat vs greenhouse warming
doug_bostrom 202 If you think I am beating a dead horse, thirteen days (July 27 to Aug 8) is nothing. In 1976, I did a paper in High School about whether the Earth was warming or going into an ice age. (I remember including things about CO2 monitoring in Hawaii, and questions about the Earth's albedo changing, and if I am not mistaken the question of cooling or warming was still open. I had never heard the name Al Gore.) -
Doug Bostrom at 16:34 PM on 8 August 2010Visually depicting the disconnect between climate scientists, media and the public
Poptech, did you notice that Anderegg et al are actually paying attention to the RealClimate thread? Forgetting for a moment that you're apparently the only person carrying the "can't use google scholar torch," why are you over here endlessly repeating yourself when your chance to have your concerns addressed is over at RealClimate? If you're actually concerned about improving things, jump on over to RealClimate and have at it. You've got your golden opportunity, use it. Failing that, readers here are going to be left with only the conclusion that you're trying to create and preserve an impression without bothering to exploit a rare opportunity for dialog, for whatever reason. -
TomJones at 13:06 PM on 8 August 2010It's cooling
Doug: Thank you for the von Schuckmann paper. -
kdkd at 11:30 AM on 8 August 2010What do you get when you put 100 climate scientists in a room?
FTFY: I have produced a subjective and fairly poorly thought out attempted rebuttal of the PNAS paper by Andresson. It looks to me that because their methodology was systematic, and designed to generate a sample of data, it's fine. You're demanding a census which is really not possible without a good deal of resources. Anyway, if they were to use ISI web of science, which has less inclusive indexing criteria, this would be unacceptable to you as well, due to poorly thought out reasons that you have inflicted on us previously ;). -
Doug Bostrom at 10:24 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
"We," AlanR? Superficially speaking "we" have some hints that you are sufficiently motivated as to register here and ask questions in a way that suggests you are familiar with this topic but at the same time insufficiently curious to make an effort to find answers on your own, a seeming paradox. Or perhaps you are not curious, it's hard to say exactly without more data. Now you appear to be departing from the world of facts, presumably imagining "cooling" or the like in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary as well as sliding into the fuzzy world of semantics and rhetoric, which helps to confirm that further discussion of science with you is probably pointless. I could be wrong, of course. -
michael sweet at 10:22 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Joohnd at 67: The specific prediction of an El Nino (or La Nina) is weather and not related to long term climate forcasting. The climate modelers do not claim the ability to forcast these reliably. You need to produce an example of a long range climate model in action, not a weather model. -
AlanR at 10:09 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
Why Doug, the warming effects we noted at #47. ACO2 is CO2. I think so too. The IPCC models treat them differently. Easy yes. Mystery no. -
Doug Bostrom at 09:45 AM on 8 August 2010Visually depicting the disconnect between climate scientists, media and the public
For what it's worth, any possibly substantial quibbles with the Anderegg paper are much narrower than what poptech mentions. There's an interesting and informative thread at RealClimate on Anderegg's limitations: Expert Credibility in Climate Change – Responses to Comments on the topic. A fellow going by the handle of "RomanM" appears to bring up the sole possibly serious issue. There's no agreement on whether his point is truly valid, though it would be interesting to see the analysis redone using his suggestions. It's also fairly clear that a redo using RomanM's take won't change the results much. I personally find it really interesting see how vigorously the notion of lack of consensus is defended by contrarians. They've highlighted and even could be said to have synthesized this matter and now when the concept comes under serious attack they're amazingly keen to defend their construction. The time could be better spent doing science on the core issue as opposed to meta-science, but contrarians did insist, after all. Expect more on the topic, creating an entire subdomain of contrarianism as we appear to see emerging even now. -
muoncounter at 09:32 AM on 8 August 2010Has Global Warming Stopped?
#61: "are the temp observations during that period representing a rise in temperature or are they random?" Temperatures can't be random. If its hot now, its more likely to be hot a short while from now. Physical properties of water and air limit instantaneous rates of temperature change. Unless we know the underlying physics, how can we presume to say that any specific power function is any more than a mechanical fit through data points? How do we know quadratic is bad and quartic is good? Without an underlying model, all we can do is be descriptive of what's going on in the data. As an example from a prior post,The linear fit is virtually meaningless, but its the number everybody quotes as 'trend'. I'd be tempted to try an even power (concave up), but even that is meaningless -- as it would keep going up faster and faster forever. Even the most ardent warmist wouldn't make that claim! I've learned to prefer LOESS, an adaptive smoothing process, which produces results that are very similar in appearance to moving averages. If a rate of change is needed, a symmetric difference quotient of the smoothed values works wonders. From this graph, is it not reasonable to conclude that temperatures are rising faster during the last 50 years? And that's a conclusion that might just shed some light on where to look for an explanation.
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Doug Bostrom at 09:32 AM on 8 August 2010It's cooling
Full text of von Schuckman here (pdf). -
Doug Bostrom at 09:13 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
Damped the effect, AlanR? What effect are you speaking of? C02 is C02, excepting isotope markers which don't affect P-chem. If you have a system that has been cycling C02 in a rough state of equilibrium and you dump a large additional amount into that system, you'll see a bulge of unprocessed C02, failing the emergence of increased processing power. The IPCC refers to the lack of excess capacity in the existing system. In this case, once enough time has passed we'll see the bulge eventually diminish, ironically in part because of increased temperature in the system. If the system had previously had -excess- capacity we'd have seen a trend of decreasing C02 prior to the C02 glut we've imposed on the system, if the trend were short enough to have allowed us to develop the capacity to make such measurements. Easy enough. The remaining mystery is, was that actually a mystery? -
AlanR at 08:47 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
Yes. Hard to say what has damped the CO2 and vapour effect for the last fifteen years. I'm not sure if ACO2 behaves itself either. Unlike natural CO2, of course. The oceans cheerfully exchange 90 gigatons natural CO2 each year though they appear to miss half the ACO2. IPCC: In current models, the uptake of anthropogenic CO2 is controlled mainly by physical transport and surface carbon chemistry, whereas the natural carbon cycle is controlled by physical,chemical and biological processes. -
TomJones at 08:16 AM on 8 August 2010It's cooling
Susan Wijffels presentation for OceanObs 2009 had a slide that she credited to Palmer 2007 that compared eight different analyses down to 700 m. They all disagreed but had visibly the same shape, and averaged 0.3 W/m**2 over about 50 years. The von Schuckman 2009 paper obviously took advantage of the Argo network, went down to 2000 m, but estimated power at 0.77W/m**2. Furthermore, the 700m analyses had about four times as much accumulated heat. Either von Schuckman has discovered something new and exciting, or the Argo system still has a few bugs. In either case, the world is going to be full of papers which are going to examine the Argo data in detail, and compare it to predecessor data. It might be a real good idea to let the dust settle before using the data. -
chris at 08:07 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Pete Ridley at 06:59 AM on 8 August, 2010 "Doug (Bostrom) hit the nail right on the head with his "that's my inexpert advice". Most of us here are offering our inexpert opinions and advice for free and there is a saying “Free advice is worth what you pay for it”." Doug is showing a certain amount of humility. In truth Doug is both rather well informed and more importantly (we've learned from our experience here) honest and informative. There are many posters here with strong backgrounds in the physical sciences that can address the scientific evidence with insight and understanding and are able to communicate this. So this site is a very good forum for gaining understanding of the science (if one chooses to be informed of course). Careful not to make the mistake of thinking that any old stuff one posts is of equal value (the pretence that everything might be dragged down to a low "common denominator" can be a conceit for those with deficient arguments!). I expect pretty much everyone that reads these threads is able to recognise honest attempts to present relevant evidence, summarise the science, perhaps to question this, and engage in an informed exchange of ideas.... -
Doug Bostrom at 07:58 AM on 8 August 2010Waste heat vs greenhouse warming
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Pete Ridley at 07:36 AM on 8 August 2010What do you get when you put 100 climate scientists in a room?
gallopingcamel, I think that you misunderstood my comment about nuclear power being viable for private transport. I wasn’t referring to electric cars, which do have a use, for example as you say for commuting. I see their drawback being their expensive batteries (life-cycle costing) and low energy capacity compared with petrol/diesel engines. Few of us even in the developed economies can afford to have one car for commuting or short distance journeys and another for long-distance. The millions of aspiring car owners in developing economies, e.g. in Asia, have their eyes on one low-cost vehicle suitable for carrying a large family long distances. Perhaps the hybrid is the answer. As for Barry Brook leading us anywhere – not for me thanks. Best regards, Pete Ridley. -
Peter Hogarth at 07:34 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Pete Ridley at 06:59 AM on 8 August, 2010 It is indeed interesting to re-read von Storch. JMurphy and Chris have already highlighted some pertinent quotes from this article elsewhere, but here's another which may give you pause for thought on your comments on climate modeling: “in popular debates sometimes the argument is voiced that since it is impossible to predict the weather of the next season it would be impossible to assess changes in a few years or even decades of years. All attempts to predict climate would therefore be doomed. However, these attempts are not doomed, –contemporary climate models are indeed capable of envisaging possible future climate”. Of course there are caveats, models give us possible scenarios, worst case/best case. Von Storch does not seem optimistic about our ability to achieve best case. -
chris at 07:32 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Pete Ridley at 06:59 AM on 8 August, 2010 Since the evidence for skill of climate models is an extant fact (see e.g. Doug's post above and the link to Julia Hargreaves article), one isn't impressed by poorly-informed assertion ("The climate models are structured from scientific hypotheses that are based upon dubious statistical manipulations, unsound...."). A useful approach to science involves a rational and honest consideration of the evidence. Your he said this...he said that construction to support your opinion isn't very interesting. You select one element from von Storch's article that you like but dismiss the fact that von Storch presents strong arguments for the nature of anthropogenic global warming, and expresses concerns about future consequences (he obviously doesn't consider anthropogenic global warming a "hypothesis"). We're left wonder at what point your apparent reliance on expert sources starts and finishes...in the end it seems like you make dainty selctions based on your opinion! evidence is always preferable to opinion Pete! -
RSVP at 07:32 AM on 8 August 2010Waste heat vs greenhouse warming
KR 200 "You put 0.028 W/m^2 out via AHF. Perhaps it takes a while to get into the environment" A cars engine "warms up" around 90 C. With the car not moving, the air temperature around the radiator begins to approach this same temperature, and it gets there in no time. With the car moving, air cooling the engine does not get so hot, but instead there is more air affected. In either case, the point is the atmosphere takes up this energy instantaneously. Then problem after that is how long it takes to leave the environment. AGW is based on the idea that non GHG have almost zero emissivity. Divide CO2 emissivity by nearly zero and multiply by .028 and you get global warming for real. "Nah, not an issue" ???????????? -
Doug Bostrom at 07:28 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
By the way, that's a interesting continuum from expertise to dilettante you cite there, Peter. I thought you were keen to rely on experts but here we rattle to a conclusion based on purloined emails and something that turned out to be a fake, synthetic scandal? Hardly a strong scientific case for exaggerating uncertainty, all in all. -
Doug Bostrom at 07:09 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
See this as an example, Peter, w/methods properly explained. There's a pretty large gulf between simple opinion polling and carefully constructed elicitation. I'd suggest if you see a trend in skepticism, you should be equally amenable to the notion that today's weather in Russia is confirmation of climate change. :-) -
Doug Bostrom at 07:00 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
Well, so far clouds don't seem to be doing the job for us. I hope water vapor makes up its mind soon whether or not to condense and where, heh! Thinking on clouds seems to have converged on the notion that altitude counts for a lot, w/high altitude clouds being a net positive forcing agent versus low altitude clouds, and that longwave vs. shortwave cloud forcing works in opposition, w/net effects sometimes canceling and sometimes not. Optical depth is important. Here are a few papers on the topic: The Influence of the 1998 El Niño upon Cloud-Radiative Forcing over the Pacific Warm Pool Cloud Radiative Forcing of the Arctic Surface: The Influence of Cloud Properties, Surface Albedo, and Solar Zenith Angle Altitude dependence of surface radiation fluxes and cloud forcing in the alps: results from the alpine surface radiation budget network Sea Surface Temperature and Large-Scale Circulation Influences on Tropical Greenhouse Effect and Cloud Radiative Forcing Interestingly, altitude effects are sufficient that aircraft contrails become an matter for examination w/regard to minimizing their formation: The impact of cruise altitude on contrails and related radiative forcing -
Pete Ridley at 06:59 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Argus, in my inexpert opinion the reason that the media prefers scare stories to reality is that it attracts more of the available audience, hence more funding for the most scary media release. I also opine that the politicians and others who promote the most scary projections of those models do so not out of concern for global climate change but for other vested interests but this is not the forum for such debate. You may be interested in taking a look at my “Global political Shenanigans” blog (http://globalpoliticalshenanigans.blogspot.com/). Doug, I’d be interested to know which “ .. scientifically conducted research into public opinion .. ” you are depending upon to support your view that Argus’s perceptions put him “ .. in a small minority of persons .. ”. The public opinion polls that I have seen recently show a clear trend toward scepticism among the general public about The Hypothesis. Best regards, Pete Ridley -
Pete Ridley at 06:59 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Doug (Bostrom) hit the nail right on the head with his "that's my inexpert advice". Most of us here are offering our inexpert opinions and advice for free and there is a saying “Free advice is worth what you pay for it”. The climate models are structured from scientific hypotheses that are based upon dubious statistical manipulations, unsound assumptions and estimates used as a poor substitutes for a proper understanding about global climate processes and drivers. Rather than paying much attention to inexpert opinions I prefer to listen to the advice of those with some expertise in the subject, such as Professor Hans von Storch, of the University of Hamburg’s Meteorological Institute. Although he is a supporter of The (significant human-made global climate change) Hypothesis, he is honest about the scientific uncertainty upon which it is based. In his 2009 paper “On Adaptation – a secondary concern?” (Note 1) von Storch says such thing as:- “.. How fast can climate change when only natural causes are operating? This rate may be described by a probability distribution .. (which) .. must be estimated from the limited evidence provided by the observational data base of the past 150 years and by indirect “proxy data”. It is not possible to prove that the estimation is “right”; we can only show that it is consistent with the little knowledge we have. I personally believe that our estimates are approximately correct – but I have to admit that I may be wrong with that assessment”. “Commonly accepted knowledge is that no more than one third of the warming of the past hundred years can be explained by increased solar output; the remaining two thirds can be explained only by the effect of elevated greenhouse gas concentrations, i.e., the anthropogenic greenhouse effect. There is a caveat, .. the quality of estimating the magnitude of naturally caused variability is a key issue in this exercise. This magnitude is not known but must be estimated. Accepting its estimated value is a matter of trust. If somebody believes that the estimate is inadequate because of the limited data base, then I can not disprove this assertion. The same is true for my belief that the data base is good enough to allow a reasonable educated guess of this quantity – possible opponents are not able to prove that I am wrong. This controversy has nothing to do with incapable scientists but with the fact that the data available to us are limited. The problem can be solved only by either waiting for a long period of extra time .. or by accepting claims such as realism of contemporary climate models”. I shouldn’t need to explain the significance of those comments but for any who need a hint, look for words like “limited evidence”, “belief”, “may be wrong”, Contributors here may find his blog Die Klimazwiebel (Note 2) enlightening but it will only help those with an open mind. I wonder who will be the first one here to cast doubts about Professor Storch’s pedigree. Andrew Gelman, Professor of Statistics and Political Science and Director of the Applied Statistics Center at Columbia University, uses that “Free advice .. ” as the title of one of his threads. Following up on this led me to an associate of his, Seth Roberts, professor emeritus of psychology at UC Berkeley. In his article “Physicists Disagree about Climate Change” (Note 3) he quotes opposing opinions on The Hypothesis from two physicist friends. Gelman then goes on to say “At risk of sounding v smug, my views have changed only a little. I already thought the consensus was more fragile than it appeared. That’s just a general truth about modern science. I was already skeptical of climate models because I knew how easily modellers fool themselves. I began to believe the consensus was not just fragile but wrong when I heard the story of the Yamal tree ring data — the long refusal to supply the raw data and, when the researcher’s hand was forced and the data finally supplied, the way it contradicted the claims that had been made. Climategate didn’t vastly change what I thought; it provided more evidence for ideas I already had .. ”. I love that bit about modellers fooling themselves. – enjoy. NOTES: 1) see http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/pdf/BadHonnef_0805-adaptation.pdf 2) see http://klimazwiebel.blogspot.com/2010/08/sustainable-science.html 3) see http://www.wellsphere.com/general-medicine-article/physicists-disagree-about-climate-change/909357 Best regards, Pete Ridley -
JMurphy at 06:42 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
johnd wrote : "Personally I believe the experimental coupled GCM from SINTEX JMA of Japan is the most accurate, more so then the combined results of the ensembles. About 3 years ago it went completely against ALL other models that were predicting an imminent and large La-Nina and was the only one to have gotten it right." johnd, the link you provided was for June 2010, showing the SINTEX JMA agreeing with most of the other models. Do you have a link to the result three years ago, which you were so impressed by ? -
chris at 06:40 AM on 8 August 2010Why I care about climate change
Pete Ridley at 05:54 AM on 8 August, 2010 Your propagandist approach to this isn't that interesting ("The Hypothesis" indeed!), and it might help you to take a more balanced approach if you would read the von Storch article you recommend. von Storch certainly doesn't consider "significant human-made global climate change" a "hypothesis", and no one who is in any way informed on this subject would do so (climate scientist, scientist, or otherwise informed individual): here's von Storch quoting from page 10 and 11 of the document you provide a link to:"…anthropogenic climate change is ongoing now; it can not be stopped; all what we can do is to limit climate change. The foreseeable future will hardly see any reduction of global emissions – but merely reductions of global emission growth.5 If we continue with business-as-usual and if no deus-ex-machina technological fit surprisingly emerges, we may well end up with a tripling or maybe even quadrupling of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at the end of the current century. Such levels will have severe implications. Making serious attempts to reduce emissions, we may be able to limit the increase in the greenhouse gas concentrations to a doubling of pre-industrial levels.6 “Doubling” is to be considered an achievement; a successful limitation. But also a doubling will have serious implications. Therefore we have to consider adaptation to climate change, not instead of, but parallel to mitigation of climate change. The goal is to limit the accumulation of greenhouse gases to “only” a doubling (or any other achievable significant reduction) and to prepare societies and ecosystems to adapt to unavoidable future changes."
We have to be rather more rational about the realities of mitigation and adaption. There's no question that we will take steps to mitigate the problem (as von Storch says) and of course there's no question that we will be forced to take adaption responses to the effects that will develop from anthropogenic global warming throughout the current century (and beyond no doubt) which we will be unable to mitigate against. Mitigation is always preferable since it allows us to take a degree of control of future events and will minimize the possibilities of the potentially dramatic consequences that lie on the "nasty" side of the uncertainties inherent in any projection that is only bounded by ranges of probabilities. -
JMurphy at 06:35 AM on 8 August 2010Why I care about climate change
Pete Ridley wrote : "I anticipate many global benefits from a few degrees of global warming and regard the warnings of climate catastrophe as a consequence of our use of fossil fuels to be nothing more than propaganda from political and environmental organisations like the UN, Greenpeace and WWF." Can you list those 'global benefits' and give the scientific backing for them ? Could you also show the evidence that reveals that 'propaganda' ? Pete Ridley also wrote : "John says of his acceptance of The (significant hiuman-made global climate change) Hypothesis that he “ .. wouldn't characterise it as 'belief', this is not a matter of faith ..” but he is no more an expert in this subject than you or I or any others subscribing to his blog. It is worthwhile looking at what Professor Hans von Storch, of the University of Hamburg’s Meteorological Institute, a scientist with real expertise in the subject has to say about it (Note 1)." From your link : In order to avoid misunderstanding, I am declaring already now: I am convinced that humankind can change climate, and I am equally convinced that humankind is presently changing climate. So, von Storch agrees with John's acceptance of AGW. I still find it very odd the way you write about AGW as "The (significant hiuman-made global climate change) Hypothesis" but think you will find that you are the only one who believes in such a strange, convoluted term which obviously helps you to accept whatever beliefs you have made up for yourself about climate and man's influence on it. -
Doug Bostrom at 06:22 AM on 8 August 2010Confidence in climate forecasts
Another retrospective of Hansen's model of 22 years ago, and some expert remarks on the utility of models in general: Skill and uncertainty in climate models From the abstract of the paper analyzing Hansen's model: Analyses of skill are widely used for assessing weather predictions, but the time scale and lack of validation data mean that it is not generally possible to investigate the predictive skill of today's climate models on the multidecadal time scale. The predictions made with early climate models can, however, be analyzed, and here we show that one such forecast did have skill. It seems reasonable to expect that predictions based on today's more advanced models will be at least as skillful. In general, assessments of predictions based on today's climate models should use Bayesian methods, in which the inevitable subjective decisions are made explicit. For the AR4, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) recommended the Bayesian paradigm for making estimates of uncertainty and probabilistic statements, and here we analyze the way in which uncertainty was actually addressed in the report. Analysis of the ensemble of general circulation models (GCMs) used in the last IPCC report suggests there is little evidence to support the popular notion that the multimodel ensemble is underdispersive, which would imply that the spread of the ensemble may be a reasonable starting point for estimating uncertainty. It is important that the field of uncertainty estimation is developed in order that the best use is made of current scientific knowledge in making predictions of future climate. At the same time, it is only by better understanding the processes and inclusion of these processes in the models, the best estimates of future climate will be closer to the truth. Here's how Hansen's model looks in retrospective tested against the null hypothesis:Forecast of Hansen et al.2 (blue line) evaluated against observational data (black). Twenty-year trends of forecast and observations are indicated with thick lines, as is the null hypothesis of zero trend (red). So we see that 22 years ago it was possible to construct a model that would predict behavior of the the Earth climate system w/some fidelity, no need for backwards-looking tweaking or the like. 12 years later, from 2000, we have another sample including more model runs to look at:
From Intercomparison of Present and Future Climates Simulated by Coupled Ocean-Atmosphere GCMs As Hargreaves remarks, it's hard to imagine models are becoming worse over time. It's also possible to see that so-called "wide variances" between different models and different model instantiations don't have much to tell us about the fundamental utility of models because while such variances do indeed emerge decades into various model runs those models still tell us the same basic story, the planet will continue warming up. "Just models," of course, but observational evidence seems to largely coincide w/model output as we can see from Hansen's very early example. Quibble over wiggles, we can still do that of course.
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AlanR at 06:14 AM on 8 August 201010 Indicators of a Human Fingerprint on Climate Change
Doug I think you are right. It would be good to see the cloud issue settled before high confidence is declared. IPCC. Clouds, which cover about 60% of the Earth’s surface, are responsible for up to two-thirds of the planetary albedo, which is about 30%. An albedo decrease of only 1%, bringing the Earth’s albedo from 30% to 29%, would cause an increase in the black-body radiative equilibrium temperature of about 1°C, a highly significant value, roughly equivalent to the direct radiative effect of a doubling of the atmospheric CO2 concentration -
Pete Ridley at 05:54 AM on 8 August 2010Why I care about climate change
Gallopingcamel, I mainly agree with your comments (#111) but suggest that mitigation is not about controlling global climate changes but about living with the impacts of them, wherever it might occur and whatever might be the cause. This is something that humans have done since the beginning. I anticipate many global benefits from a few degrees of global warming and regard the warnings of climate catastrophe as a consequence of our use of fossil fuels to be nothing more than propaganda from political and environmental organisations like the UN, Greenpeace and WWF. John says of his acceptance of The (significant hiuman-made global climate change) Hypothesis that he “ .. wouldn't characterise it as 'belief', this is not a matter of faith ..” but he is no more an expert in this subject than you or I or any others subscribing to his blog. It is worthwhile looking at what Professor Hans von Storch, of the University of Hamburg’s Meteorological Institute, a scientist with real expertise in the subject has to say about it (Note 1). Please see my comment today on the “Confidence in climate forecasts” thread. I do not believe that the Asian countries mentioned support The Hypothesis. It seems to me that their efforts on reducing the emissions of pollutants from their coal-fired electricity generation stations (is that one a month or one a week that the Chinese are installing?) is nothing to do with reducing emissions of that essential life-supporting substance CO2. The objective is to reduce to acceptable levels the real pollutants listed by The Union of Concerned Scientists (Note 2). These are (annual figure for a typical power station) - particles (500 tons), CO (700 tons), SO2 (10k tons), NOx (10k tons), VOCs (200 tons), Hg (170 pounds), As (200 pounds), Pb (10 pouinds), Cd, etc. Excluding the CO2 that the UCS includes in its list, the rest do need to (and can) be reduced to reasonable levels using the latest “clean coal” technology, as the Chinese are doing. Interest in the development of alternatives, including renewables, is for economic reasons, not as a means of global climate control. NOTES: 1) see http://coast.gkss.de/staff/storch/pdf/BadHonnef_0805-adaptation.pdf 2) see http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c02c.html Best regards, Pete Ridley -
michael sweet at 05:20 AM on 8 August 2010Grappling With Change: London and the River Thames
Doug, Your link at 16 was an interesting read. Unfortunately it seems that the real pain will not be for several decades. If that is the case and people wait for their thousand cuts to start before taking action it may be a late start. While this was more up to date than the Tampa plan, they still estimate only a maximum of 0.65 meters by 2080. IPCC estimates for the next report will likely be up to 2 meters by 2100, more than double 0.65 m by 2080. GC, I have not seen the Dutch dunes, although I believe you that they are impressive. I do not think that Florida can copy them. The area to be protected is too big. Are you going to build the levies on our tourist beaches? Even if you were able to protect the cities, how would you protect the roads and get fresh water to drink? Holland has water run in from higher land while Florida gets salt intrusion now. There are only 6 or 8 million people threatened in Florida, we can all move to South Dakota.
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