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One Planet Only Forever at 16:04 PM on 15 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
Public Referendums can produce Good Results in nations where the leadership generally and significantly try to improve the awareness and understanding of the total population, evaluating different perspectives about how to achieve a common understood helpful objective based on that constantly improving common sense understanding.
Switzerland also has a very active public gun culture that works because in their culture it would be unacceptable to try to carry a loaded gun in public or have a loaded gun handy at home for persoanl protection.
A Referendum on Climate Action in the current USA would be a divisive misleading marketed nightmare capable of producing very Bad Results, like their Free-for-all claim making, gerrymandered, vote suppression politics has repeatedly done.
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One Planet Only Forever at 15:54 PM on 15 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
Tonight's (Feb 14, 2019) Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC included an interview with Tom Perez, the Democratic National Committee Chair.
His comments included stating that the Democrat debates would be about how to improve action on Climate Change and Health Care, two major components of the Green New Deal.
The Democrats appear to see the pairing of Climate Action with Health Care Action as a robust combined basis for exposing the harm of the United Right opposition to such actions.
And the addition of the other points that the United Right are also harmfully Wrong about could actually result in some 'long-time Republican supporters' changing their minds about what Party they are currently interested in supporting. Tribal Loyalty and beliefs about Tribal superiority can be limited if the harmful nature of the top of the Tribal hierarchy is undeniably exposed.
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Max or not at 15:27 PM on 15 February 2019It's El Niño
If intensity of el niño is only directly proportional of the heat content store in the ocean near the equator pacific, then we should have bigger and bigger el niño until GHG is growing stopped. I'm already swelling !
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Riduna at 14:35 PM on 15 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
scaddenp
Sorry I did not manage to insert a table showing details of all storage projects which shows URL's for half of them do not appear in the Clean Energy Council schedules. Details are as follows:
Kidston Stage 2 - Storage. Capacity 250 MW
Kaban Battery. Capacity 100
Harlin Battery Storage. Capacity 500
Riverland Storage Batttery. Capacity 100
Solar River Project - Stage 1 Battery. Capacity 100
Solar River Project - Stage 2 Battery. Capacity 150
Lake Bonney Battery Storage 1 and 2. Capacity 50
Kingfisher Solar Farm - Stage 2. Capacity 120
Kingfisher Storage Battery, Capacity 100
Goat Hill Pumped Hydro Storage. Capacity 230
Ganawarra Storage System. Capacity 25Nowingi Storage Battery. Capacity 80
TOTAL 1805
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Riduna at 14:23 PM on 15 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
scaddenp
Storage relates to 3 projects in Queensland, 7 in South Australia and 2 in Victoria, 12 in all as shown in Fig 2. Details are (I hope) available at:
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Max or not at 13:52 PM on 15 February 2019Earth’s oceans are routinely breaking heat records
I just think that they could translate into degres for the 99% but that will have deserve their views. People will instantly compare to the global temperature and if you say them that 90% of the heat are in the oceans, you are done !
Is it possible to explode mega bomb in the oceans to mixing all that fucking heat with the deep cold water ? USA and Russia together to explode all their bombs in the oceans ! What a dreams !
The is some cool graph here : climatedataguide.ucar.edu/climate-data/ocean-temperature-analysis-and-heat-content-estimate-institute-atmospheric-physics .When I see uncertaintees reduce over time like that, I say to myself that the science is on the right track...
It should be 0.35-0.4 ℃ for the first 300 meters.
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scaddenp at 11:05 AM on 15 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
Thanks Riduna - that is a considerable help though the storage information is very thin even on that site and nowhere near 1800 unless Snowy 2.0 is included, which I understand will not be ready to start in 2019 (at least in terms of actual construction).
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Riduna at 10:03 AM on 15 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
The Clean Energy Council lists 83 projects which are either underway or about to commence. The information regarding capacity, investment and jobs is not always complete and where this is the case I have endeavoured to complete the information by undertaking internet searches of individual projects or seeking advice from their proponents.
In addition, through internet searches, I have identified a further 43 projects which are either underway or about to commence in 2019. These include projects being built specifically to supply the National or W.A. Grids or are being built to supply end users with electricity directly – not through a Grid.
Several proponents who provided data did so on the understanding that it would not be published. I gave that undertaking and have therefore limited the published material to summaries only.
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nigelj at 09:54 AM on 15 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
It seems that one impediment to a proper price on carbon and good climate mitigation in general is politicians. They mostly no doubt enter parliament with good intentions, then meet the corporate lobby groups, campaign funders and other politicians unfriendly towards mitigation on ideological grounds.
Switzerland has bypassed this a little. It some interesting and quite comprehensive climate policies here, and recently they had a public referendum on subsidies for renewable energy and nuclear power here, which went in favour of the subsidies and no new nuclear power plants. It had broad bipartisan support. The point is not so much the policies (which seem ok) but the fact they had a referendum on a big climate issue, as the Swiss typically do on big issues. Cuts out the politicians to some extent. If only more countries did this.
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scaddenp at 06:22 AM on 15 February 2019A Green New Deal must not sabotage climate goals
RedBaron, you have provided some very interesting material over the years and I do sense your frustration at repeating the links. However, it is also not easy for users to search back through past posts on many threads looking for your references.
Since you are clearly a keen advocate for soil sequestration via improved farming practices, why not make a small web page with links to the relevant papers and articles? This would potentially reach a large audience and the only link to need to keep repeating would be the link to that page. Organising links around topics helps too.
Moderators (I am one) jump on people endlessly repeating the same point in a single thread while not addressing counter-arguments. The comments policy is:
"Discussions which circle back on themselves and involve endless repetition of points already discussed do not help clarify relevant points. They are merely tiresome to participants and a barrier to readers. If moderators believe you are being excessively repetitive, they will advise you as such, and any further repetition will be treated as being off topic."
The key phrase here is "excessive repetition".
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scaddenp at 06:04 AM on 15 February 2019It's El Niño
"Could we experience an almost flat line in the air temperature to 2034 while the sea surface will continue to rise gently ?"
ENSO is primary cause of the "wriggle" about a positive trend in surface temperatures. Whatever ENSO does, that trend (driven primarily by increasing GHG) will continue. Climate models have emergent ENSO-like feature but cannot predict what ENSO will do. They are good at picking the underlying trend however.
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scaddenp at 05:59 AM on 15 February 2019Earth’s oceans are routinely breaking heat records
I am not sure exactly what point you are trying to make here but if you are implying that OHC isnt a problem and scientists are trying to scare us with large numbers into their nefarious schemes for .. I dunno... then consider:
1/ Temperature change is not vertically uniform. The surface temperature change especially in top 100m is much larger and that is important for biosphere.
2/ The major value in measuring OHC is that is a diagnostic of earth energy imbalance. As such it makes sense to measure it in energy units. Dont take my word for it, see what Roger Piekle has to say.
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MA Rodger at 05:50 AM on 15 February 2019It's El Niño
Max or not @199,
And what basis do you see for such "pushing"? The ENSO activity that we have record-of during previous 'minor lunar standstill' appear to be stiffled rather than pushed anywhere.
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One Planet Only Forever at 05:19 AM on 15 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
Evaluations of the 'cost of carbon' that identify a higher cost, like the 'insurance approach' are helpful. But pricing the creation of new excess carbon is only part of the required corrective actions. What is required is implementing 'price/fee/penalty' mechanisms that will most rapidly curtail the pursuit of benefit from the burning of fossil fuels by the most fortunate, and assist the less fortunate so that they do not suffer additional harm. And other actions that deter the harmful behaviour and reward helpful behaviour are also required, because the most rapid correction will be the best result for the future of humanity.
The required corrective actions do not depend upon a calculated cost for carbon. But an identification of a higher cost should improve awareness a understanding of the need to terminate the activity that a 'higher calculated cost' would develop (and also developed increased resistance to correction by the Usual Suspects who have a history of preferring to do less to help the future of humanity, who would actually prefer to be able to do more harm to the future of humanity).
The following is another way to express my earlier comment:
- The developed socioeconomic-political systems/cultures have produced streams of harmful unsustainable results, because harmful unsustainable actions have a competitive advantage if they can be gotten away with.
- Those systems/cultures have also developed powerful resistance to the correction of harmful unsustainable activity that was allowed to become profitable and popular. The developed perceptions of status from getting away with harmful unsustainable activity often get 'popularly' declared to 'need to be protected'.
- One aspect of the developed resistance to correction is arguing/debating about how to calculate how expensive the harmful unsustainable activity should be.
- The reality is that the harmful unsustainable activity needs to be rapidly curtailed. Immediate curtailment of the harmful activity is the ideal (immediately ending the harm done to Others). A quicker ending of harm to future generations is better, no matter how unpopular the measures may be with those who have developed undeserved perceptions of status due to getting away with benefiting from the harmful unsustainable activity (particularly through the past 30 years).
- The rapid curtailing needs to be done in a way that 'costs people who have developed perceptions of status due to benefiting from the harmful unsustainable activity', without negatively affecting the efforts to improve the living conditions of the least fortunate. The Sustainable Development Goals establish a comprehensive set of objectives that all need to be achieved (none of the SDGs can be compromised or sacrificed in attempts to achieve any other goals). The New Green Deal is well aligned with that holistic understanding.
- The major culture/system change required is growth of the understanding of the Primacy of the Universal Moral principle of helping to develop sustainable improvements for the future of humanity, and doing no harm to others in those pursuits. Tribal leaders who abuse tendencies for people to like Loyalty, Liberty, Subservience to Hierarchy, Perceptions of Tribal Purity, or Fairness as levers to overpower the Universal Understanding to not harm Others, Are The Problem that needs to be corrected. Ideally global leaders - every more fortunate person needs to be expected to be a helpful global leader - would act to help achieve the SDGs globally. As an example, USA First is only acceptable when the actions do not negatively affect achieving and improving on the SDGs.
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william5331 at 05:00 AM on 15 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
You can't put a per ton price on carbon emissions if the likely result of such emissions is to trash our economy and ecology (which seems more than likely). We simply need to adopt Hansen's suggestion and put a small tax on carbon coming out of the ground or accross our boarders and send every cent of the collected money to every registered tax payer by cheap electronic transfer. But that is not the whole story. The important part is that the per ton tax must rise each year by a pre-determined amount. The inevitability of such a rise is the critical factor. Think of the effect on our investments long before the actual amount of the tax is an economic factor.
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Max or not at 03:09 AM on 15 February 2019Temp record is unreliable
It ks not : https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201813
Moderator Response:[PS] Link fixed. Please learn how to create links yourself by using the link button in the comments editor.
And to go straight to the chase, the link reports global land/sea surface temperature anomaly is estimated to +/- 0.15C not 0.01.
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Max or not at 03:04 AM on 15 February 2019It's El Niño
I don't think it is the cause of el niño but that it is pushing ONI value higher whatever the value are negative, neutral or positive.
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Max or not at 02:46 AM on 15 February 2019Earth’s oceans are routinely breaking heat records
So it is 0.15°C-0.2°C from 1955. I better understand why Terajoules are used !
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WesIsh at 01:07 AM on 15 February 2019Temp record is unreliable
How is it possible to measure the current temperature of Earth i.e. the biosphere with the precision and accuracy of 0.01 C over a time period of 1 year?
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RedBaron at 00:48 AM on 15 February 2019A Green New Deal must not sabotage climate goals
@ Michael Sweet,
Actually, I did provide references that farmers successfully sequestered 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr on average in multiple 10 year case studies. I am sorry you couldn't find it, but this website doesn't allow me to keep repeating over and over and over citations you missed or don't like because of the format they are written. That's an average. I know of higher, but did not use those higher numbers because I am trying to stay conservative in my claims.
But I believe you are missing the most important point. I take full responsibility for this, because I failed to emphasize and communicate it.A carbon market with verified carbon offsets specifically takes advantage of the best known economic motivator known to mankind, the capitalist free markets.
If you want somebody to do something, pay them to do it, and they will!
Right now the farm bill pays farmers to produce a glut of corn and soy in a way that causes AGW, being somewhere in the range of 10-20 % of emissions.
Sadly we are paying farmers to be a significant source of AGW and they are doing it! Society is getting what we paid for.
So right off the bat as soon as we stop paying farmers to over produce corn and soy by means of unsustainable methods causing AGW, they will stop doing it. That reduces emissions at least by 10% alone, using the conservative low end.
Then of course they still need to make a living. So this carbon market with verified carbon offsets will instead pay them to do their farming in a way that sequesters carbon in the soil.
That means restoring the tallgrass prairie ecosystems would now be more profitable than raising corn and soy! And what would any farmer with a lick of sense do? He would stop raising a glut of corn and soy, and instead replant degraded crop fields with prairie grasses. Instead of raising corn and soy to feed animals and gasoline tanks, we can raise animals on the prairie and restore the most productive terrestrial biome on the planet. One that indeed does sequester carbon in the soil at least the average rates listed above in my previous posts.
However, since you are still skeptical, here is a new citation more in the format you are used to analyzing:
If you convert that study's C figures to CO2e, you will find that we here in the US have confirmed what the Aussies were saying decades ago, but no one listened.
Again, pay US farmers to do it and watch out. They have exceeded expectations in every case imaginable. Pay them to sequester carbon and just watch the carbon disappear into the soil!
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MA Rodger at 00:09 AM on 15 February 2019It's El Niño
Max or not @@197,
It is difficult to understand much of what you actually ask.
But regarding the 18;6 year cycle of the lunar orbital plane and ENSO. The 2015/16 El Niño did coincide with the 'minor lunar standstill' which occurs every 18.6 years. And the 2015/16 El Niño was 18 years behind the 1997/98 El Niño. If the 18.6 year lunar cycle were triggering major El Niños perhaps there should have been a major El Niño in 1978/79 (2 x 18.6 yrs before 2015) and perhaps another in 1960/61 (3 x 18.6 yrs before 2015). Yet there wasn't. (See ONI data here.) That there were no such El Niños in those years surely suggests your proposed linkage between ENSO and the lunar orbit is solely based on a single conicidence that has not been repeated in the past, and so probably will not repeat in the future.
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michael sweet at 23:26 PM on 14 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
Wol,
I am glad that we agree that all the costs of each technology need to be considered. For fossil fuels that would include the 500,000 people killed each year in the EU by pollution from internal combustion engines (uprated for the entire world), costs to rebuild every port city in the world due to sea level rise and replace the 10% of world farmland at risk from sea level rise, all extreme storm damage like the 500,000 cattle killed in recent Australia rains, firestorm damage like recent California damage and other damage caused by burning fossil fuels.
Calculations counting health damages but ignoring the rest of my list indicate that renewable energ ywit hstorage is cheaper than fossil fuels.
From an economic viewpoint the only choice is to convert to renewable energy as soon as possible. The Stern review was the first of many reports I am aware of that costed out the damage from fossil fuels and concluded that we must switch to renewable energy. Since then the costs of renewable energy have dropped over 50%. Please cite a serious economic review that supports your suggestion that renewable energy is not the most economic choice.
Spinning reserve is a problem for fossil fules and the nuclear industry (especially the nuclear industry). It is generally not an issue for renewable energy except for the possibility of transmission line failure, which can be covered by a smart grid. Night-time lack of solar power can be anticipated in advance by suppliers so spinning reserve is unnecessary. Likewise, in practice, operators have found wind and solar can be forecast in advance so spinning reserve is not needed. Nuclear plants require 100% spinning reserve at all times since any fault causes an immediate emergency shutdown of all generation. Recent hot and cold waves have caused critical shutdowns of fossil fuel plants in Australia and the USA while wind and solar continued uninterupted.
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Max or not at 13:54 PM on 14 February 2019Earth’s oceans are routinely breaking heat records
Are you sceptical about 95% confidence interval ?
How much degrees celsius all this terajoules are ?
Moderator Response:[PS] Error estimates for OHC have been studied in detail. See here for methodology and detailed results.
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Max or not at 13:49 PM on 14 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #6
0.79 plus or minus 0.15 degre celcius for land-ocean, so we are between the second and ninght year for the record with 100 %. We could even be the first if the the 2016, 2015 and 2017 temperature are in their bottom uncertainties range and this year at the top !
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Max or not at 12:55 PM on 14 February 2019It's El Niño
Hi
Climate models predicts higher air than sea temperature; is it el-niño effect no ?
The last two big el niño were in phase with the 18.6 lunar tidal effect, it' s seems to have construct an hiher amplitude...it's seems to impeach la niña in the las two before that.
The next is in 2034; sea surface temperature is actually far below the air temperature. Could we experience an almost flat line in the air temperature to 2034 while the sea surface will continue to rise gently ?
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scaddenp at 11:54 AM on 14 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
Wol - not clear as source is not transparent. The only two I could find were 2018 units with 25MW/50MWh and 30MW/30MWh respectively in Vic and 2 (30MW and 50MWh) in SA joining the initial Tesla 100MW/129MWh already operating.
So whatever? (Power and energy broadly same).
12 new plants would need to average 150MW or MWh to scale for that much storage.
A clearer source for the pipeline would help.
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Wol at 10:00 AM on 14 February 2019A Duplicitous Minister?
>>....with capacity to store 1,800 MW.....<<
??? Power or energy?
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nigelj at 08:20 AM on 14 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
Great article. The economic models are based around a few things such as climate change damages. I'm not an economist, but it does not take much to see that the damages outweigh the benefits as below.
skepticalscience.com/global-warming-positives-negatives-intermediate.htm
And this list does not even include the distinct possibility of some abrupt and severe form of change to global atmospheric or ocean circulation patterns. Regardless of whether an abrupt change is towards abrupt warming or some peverse form of cooling, such a change would indisputably be hard to adapt to due to its abrupt nature.
And this needs repeating. The article says estimates of net damages keep increasing while mitigation costs are falling. Very important idea.
And the modelling is based around discount rates and rates of future wealth creation. Discount rates assume an investment today will grow in value in the future, and nobody disputes this has been the pattern thus far historically, but we are always in a situation of "assuming" such a pattern would continue. It is never a "given" and is always based on assumptions. So are the typical assumptions made sensible? One assumption is the economy will improve its quality of output, and this seems reasonable but is a different thing to quantity and this is what is most relevant to a discount rate. Another assumption is efficiency would improve. Its reasonable to assume we would waste less and be smarter about things, but reducing waste comes up against an obvious limit fairly quickly.
It's assumed that population will grow giving economies of scale, but many trends are already towards lower population growth (and this is ultimately no bad thing anyway). Its assumed that technology will perpetually improve at past rates, but some evidence suggests rates of technological innovation have actually already slowed (even although this appears counter intuitive). Its reasonable to assume innovation will continue in renewable energy for some decades, and prices will drop but even that will have limits.
It is assumed that there will be perpetual economic growth at rather high rates of 3% per annum. This is implausible, because resource scarcity, the need for sustainablity, combined with market saturation and climate impacts all suggest economic growth will relentlessly slow in coming decades and centuries, and probably fall, so those who optimistically count on high economic growth offsetting the climate problem are delusional.
This is not to say economic growth will stop tomorrow. It's likely it will continue and greatly help lift people out of poverty, but there are limits on the timescales relevant to the climate problem.
Therefore those counting on future wealth creation bailing us out of the problem are delusional. Those assuming a high discount rate are delusional. They just aren't very smart. They are pollyanahs.
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One Planet Only Forever at 06:38 AM on 14 February 2019Climate Damages: Uncertain but Ominous, or $51 per Ton?
A fundamental and critical point by-passed or ignored by a 'calculated cost per unit of new excess CO2 created' is that it is understandably undeniable that it is unacceptable for anyone or group/tribe to do something that creates negative consequences for another person or group/tribe. It is even unacceptable when the harmed person is desperate enough that they supposedly agree to the harmful actions (like workers unnecessarily at risk in lower cost operations that do not implement the best known and constantly improving safety and protection measures).
What has developed clearly contradicts that understanding. But that does not mean that the moral/ethical understanding is incorrect. It means that the undeniable moral/ethical understanding that it is unacceptable to harm others is being allowed to be over-powered by other interests.
This is a case of a portion of current day humanity wanting to benefit by doing harm to future generations (and others in the current generation). They want to operate the global economy in ways that are not sustainable and are understood to be harmful to the future of humanity.
No math can make that acceptable. And any discounting of the future costs pretending that wealth always grows is ridiculous (in the intended definition of being deserving of ridicule). Every 'marketplace correction' that has ever occurred is proof of that understanding. And there is irreversible harm done by every one of those 'corrections' (which includes the unnecessary death of many among the proorest). The climate challenge is a matter of correction. How big and harmful it is is a matter of how the correction occurs. Who is harmed is the issue. And right now all discussion is still about how OK it is to harm the future generations as long as the 'Price is Right for the people wanting to benefit in the current generation'
What is needed is the most rapid correction of what has developed that is possible. And that has to start by always admitting that what has developed, including the socioeconomic-political systems that developed, are incorrect. It is especially incorrect that resistance to correction of understandably harmful activity remains 'acceptable'.
That understanding should be the preface/basis for any discussion like this one about 'pragmatic actions that are hoped to create sustainable adequate corrections in the current systems'. I personally doubt any significant correction will occur without corrections to the systems. I consider such efforts to be like the classic definition of insanity. But I admit I could be mistaken (but I highly doubt it based on what has happened so far).
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william5331 at 05:22 AM on 14 February 2019EV’s: Crucial to Reducing CO2 Emissions
Right on in all respects but one. I don't believe that self driving cars will ever become the industry standard. Have you ever seen a computer program that didn't have a raft of glitches when first released. Have you ever seen one that couldn't be hacked. With an electric car without bells and whistles, it should be so easy to maintain that we will reverse the helplessness we feel when we look under the hood of a modern car. Changing a motor, for instance, should be as easy as undoing 6 nuts, extracting the faulty motor and inserting a new one. The old one goes for refurbishing or recycling. Ditto inserting new up to date batteries and using the old one at home to store energy from your solar array. The car manufacturer that produces the simple but hugely reliable, easy to repair electric car (bolt on and off bits that tend to get dented for instance) will sweep the market.
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:38 AM on 14 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
nigelj,
My understanding is that linking the required massive corrections of climate action (more massive today because of immoral behaviour of some leaders/Winners, particualrly through the past 30 years) with actions that will also correct unfair and harmful developments, like the poor health care for many in the USA, is a way to pull people out of the Tribal brainfreeze of their harmful membership in a Tribe that promotes and Unites unjust attitudes and actions that are based harmful on things like Greed and Intolerance.
Morality should clearly be Universally governed by the objective of Do No Harm, with an aspiration to Help Others, especially the future generations. The problem is that the other 5 potential basic human inclinations (those other measured triggers of behaviour) can be encouraged to over-rule the Help/Harm principle.
The other motivations/triggers for human behaviour are not actually Moral Justifications. They are undeniable real basic motivations. But Morally and Ethically they all need to be governed by the Universal Moral/Ethical Objective of "Improving awareness and understanding of what is really going on and applying that improving knowledge to help develop sustainable improvements for global humanity into the distant future - As a minimum Do No Harm to that pursuit (the largest worldview)"
The Green New Deal is aligned with that understanding (as are the Sustainable Development Goals and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).
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Wol at 16:33 PM on 13 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
Michael @ 7:
>>Clearly the OP does not have enough space to reinvent all of science. Mr. Ackerman has to leave out things that are well known to be true. As Nigelj has shown, the statement that renewable energy is cheaper than any other energy source is easily confirmed with a simple GOOGLE search.<<
Passing quickly over the intended irony/sarcasm of the first paragraph, there are all sorts of things that come into the equations and many can legitimately add or subtract them. Storage is very relevant: producing energy when it's not needed is wasteful without it and sans storage the deficit on windless nights has to be made up by conventional means, which often mean spinning reserves.
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nigelj at 05:30 AM on 13 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
Mal Adapted
"That said, a stable global population with a steady-state, 100% renewable or recycled economy would seem to be our only long-term alternative to eventual global economic and demographic collapse."
Correct, and I would go further and say this is inevitable. It will either be forced on us by deteriorating circumstances, and in a painful way with possibly increased mortality rates as the system becomes very stretched, or we can adopt it in a more timely and proactive way in the coming couple of decades, by trying to bend the population curve down more, and adopt more recycling and a more sustainable economy. And obviously also transition to renewable energy. Its a simple choice of a) or b).
Unfortunately I'm in a gloomy mood and tend to think nothing much will change until its absolutely forced on us. We will go on using up resources at a huge pace. The best we might do on climate is stop warming getting above 3 degrees. The related issues are on such a vast scale, and humans have so many limitations that its hard to turn the ship around. I hope I'm wrong of course.
OPOF
Yes I agree clearly we should tackle climate and socio economic goals in parallel, and as part of one cohesive philosophy that puts fairness and sustainability at the top of the list. Thats what political parties do or should be doing. But Green New Deals should stick to environmental issues, and those that clearly overlap with them, not issues about healthcare etc.
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nigelj at 05:18 AM on 13 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
OPOF @29, yes that sounds right. Have a read of this:
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michael sweet at 03:08 AM on 13 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
Wol,
I noticed that the article also left out that all matter is made of atoms and that electricity is caused by the flow of electrons.
Clearly the OP does not have enough space to reinvent all of science. Mr. Ackerman has to leave out things that are well known to be true. As Nigelj has shown, the statement that renewable energy is cheaper than any other energy source is easily confirmed with a simple GOOGLE search.
In addition, the cost of renewable energy is still going down. Costs of fossil fuels will only go up as they are used up. Distractions like questions about storage, which have been answered in the peer reviewed literature, while leaving out the immense current and future costs of fossil fuels (coal alone kills over 10,000 Amenican citizens and causes over $40 billion in health costs per year, not to mention sea level rise and stronger storms) is simply stalling reasoned discussion.
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:02 AM on 13 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
My statement about Unite the Right members (like the USA GOP) being "... Loyal to the Authority they see as Puritan Protectors of the Status of their Tribe" is based on the understanding presented by Jonathan Haidt in "The Righteous Mind".
The Righteous Mind in a nut shell is that it is possible for humans to think that 'morality' is based on:
- Help/Harm
- Fairness
- Loyalty to a Tribe
- Subservience to or respect for Tribal Leadership
- Perceptions of Cleanliness of their Tribe relative to Others
- Freedom to do as you please
Many members of humanity develop an understanding of morals that people are free to do as they wish as long as they are governed by:
- Not harming Others
- Being Fair to Others
Others will willingly do harm to Others and be unfair to Others because they have become Loyal, Authority following, Defenders of the perceptions of Purity, Cleanliness and Superiority of Their United Right Tribes (they will deliberately compromise the moral concerns of harm and fairness in order to be Loyal, Subservient followers of the 'Authority in Their Tribe' and steadfast believers of the Superiority and the Purity of Their Tribe). As presented by Sally Kohn in "The Opposite of Hate" they will fight (even viciously) against anything they perceive as 'unacceptable', including fighting against improving their awareness and understanding of the harmful incorrectness of Their Tribe and its Leadership.
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One Planet Only Forever at 16:06 PM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
Mal Adapted,
I agree with the importance of rapid action to minimize the climate change harm that is done to the future of humanity. But I would suggest that many significant recent global conflicts, including the Syrian and Sudan tragedies that were likely triggered by unanticipated climate events (prolonged droughts), were more due to incorrect Social, Economic and Political development than the climate change impacts.
So climate change impacts do need to be urgently addressed, but the incorrect socioeconomic-political systems create more threats that are actually more immediate. So I would suggest it is important to "Add" climate action to the long understood need for Social, Economic and Political corrections (that include developing decent health care for all citizens of the USA and reversing things like Gerrymandering, Voter Suppression, and twisted Census Questions that the GOP have implemented (or tried to implement), in desperate attempts to prolong their ability to regionally win politically incorrectly).
And it is important that the corrections implemented regarding climate change be done in concert with actions that also correct related already developed Social and Economic problems. The leadership of France blew it when they implemented a Carbon Fee without clear related programs to assist those already suffering who would be further negatively impacted. Even a Carbon Fee and Rebate program may be an inadequate way of addressing the existing developed Socio-Economic situations that require correction.
I will close with a different perspective on Phillip's comment @25. The lack of responsible leadership regarding the required corrections of developed Socioeconomic-political systems through the past 30 years has developed larger more urgent problems that all need to be corrected. The likes of the current Winners of Control of the GOP would probably like more people to give up on caring about the future of humanity, but it is essential that the current GOP supporters who are incorrectly Loyal to the Authority they see as Puritan Protectors of the Status of their Tribe be exposed to how harmful and unfair, how fundamentally morally incorrect, their Tribal Leadership actually is. Much harm has been done by their incorrect unjustified Winning.
The real problem is that the GOP Tribe, like other Unite the Right Tribes, is determined to remain United in resistance to correction of all of their collected interests that are undeniably in need of correction based on improved understanding, including resisting effective climate action. Their history of actions is very evident. They are United to resist correction. So even though a portion of the GOP say they support climate action, as long as they remain Loyal Followers of the current GOP Leadership they will vote against any effective correction even if it is understandably harmful to do so (even if they are nice helpful caring Family/Community people, they will support harmful actions to defend the Status of their Tribe).
Sally Kohn's book is quite Enlightening regarding the tragic harmful Tribalness that has developed and can powerfully resist correction.
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JWRebel at 13:35 PM on 12 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
An excellent explanation, clearly hitting the main points and making an appeal to easily grasped parallels.
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JWRebel at 13:33 PM on 12 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
nigelj @1: It is very manageable. Spending 3.1% on the military primarily buys us enemies; better to spend the money on really defending ourselves from what is really threatening us. The defense money could easily be diverted — making the net costs $0.
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Wol at 11:35 AM on 12 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
nigelj @3: Thanks. I was going to complain that externalities aren't considered costs but the Wikipedia article does address them. Whether the piece we are referring to does I don't know, but a 20 - 30% extra cost would change the argument substantially.
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Mal Adapted at 10:57 AM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
OPOF @24, well said. I differ slightly with
the Sustainable Development Goals are understood to be collectively required (nothing sustainable is achieved if only some parts of the holistic objective are achieved - but admittedly climate action is a significant element of the set of objectives).
I would say rather that if we don't address anthropogenic global warming immediately, we won't have the option to do the others. IMHO, a 'market-driven' transition to a carbon-neutral global economy is achievable without broad social upheaval, through policies like a US national Carbon Fee and Dividend. It would only be a quick fix, not addressing the fallacy of endless economic growth, but it would postpone the urgency of that debate. There's no reason to stop debating, of course, but I predict a well-designed CF&D with BAT will lead to a quicker climate fix than reorganizing global society from top to bottom.
That said, a stable global population with a steady-state, 100% renewable or recycled economy would seem to be our only long-term alternative to eventual global economic and demographic collapse. Capping the warming only buys us time. Hopefully we won't approach stability by repeated over- and undershoot, albeit in a stable climate!
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nigelj at 09:21 AM on 12 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
"Does the electricity get measured in Kw, or Kwh? (Power or energy?) Does the cost include decommisssioning costs or replacement? There are other criteria but you get my point."
Levelised costs of virtually all forms types electricty generation here and here. (comparing like with like, and including lifetime costs and maintainance etc). Includes data on battery storage as well.
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nigelj at 09:03 AM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
John McKeon @21
"Decarbonising economies is a huge task and very, very necessary. "
Yes, and hopefully nobody would argue with that. And something about The Green New Deal is connecting with people because they are noticing it and talking about it. Perhaps because it's a bold statement and comprehensive, and unequivocal something thats been a little lacking from people like Hilary Clinton. I dont see anyone who is environmentally conscious writing it off as complete rubbish either, so its being talked about for the right reasons.
But the devil is in the detail. Like I said thats when real discussion will start. How do we fund such a massive government infrastructure spend? From what I hear the plan proposes either deficit financing or money creation. Given the economic costs appear to be around 1.5% of gdp this might well be possible, but its going to be a political battle, and imho a carbon tax avoids many of these difficulties.
And then there's the question of the social provisions. The messages are fine by me, but is the Green New Deal the right document to deliver them in? Yes as OPOF points out the plan is not going to be put up as one piece of legisation, but by mixing so many things together in one document negative reactions against the social provisions will be used as an excuse to label the green provisions socialist (they aren't imho but you know what I mean). People will say remember The Green New Deal....It's stupid mud slinging, but why invite it?
But the plan is an honest, open statement of what The Democrats stand for and takes a stand over a set of values. Something to really admire in that. Maybe this will win through in the end.
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Wol at 08:19 AM on 12 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
>>In the windiest and sunniest parts of the world (and the United States), new wind and solar power installations now produce electricity at costs equal to or lower than from fossil fuel-burning plants<<
A statement which on its own looks good, but comes without any parameters.
Does the electricity get measured in Kw, or Kwh? (Power or energy?) Does the cost include decommisssioning costs or replacement? There are other criteria but you get my point.
Deniers always bring up the "sun doesn't shine all the time" and "wind doesn't blow all the time" arguments - which are, with the paucity of power storage, valid. A statement such as this is no counterargument without the full facts being available.
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:07 AM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
Whatever we do, I am tending to think it will too little, by orders of magnitude, too late. Humans are failing because of the flaws in their nature. We continue playing our little games while massive changes are taking place right in front of our eyes, geological scale events that command far less attention from the public than some famous girl's dress color on some day.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006320718313636
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:16 AM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
The Green New Deal is not intended to be a massive single piece of legislation.
The Objectives of the Green New Deal need to be understood to lead to a collective diversity of required legislative corrective actions, like the Sustainable Development Goals are understood to be collectively required (nothing sustainable is achieved if only some parts of the holistic objective are achieved - but admittedly climate action is a significant element of the set of objectives).
Trump won partially because the Demorcats missed reaching out to and connecting with all of the economically and socially disadvantaged. However, a failure of the likes of the Democrats to correct misunderstandings about "what is helpful and what is harmful and what is really going on", is not a good reason to compromise improved understanding.
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One Planet Only Forever at 01:45 AM on 12 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
I see many comments that appear to be based on the belief that compromising understanding for the benefit of incorrectly developed popularity and profitability is required (another way of referring to beliefs that the current controlling interests of the likes of the GOP need to be allowed to compromise what is actually understood to need to be corrected to develop a sustainable better future for humanity).
The Tribes that encourage people to be greedier and less tolerant of diversity and try to keep their regional and global collectives United to have more power to resist correction are a serious "developed and developing" problem.
That harmful development needs to be corrected. Believing it is possible to get better results out of an understandably corrupted system without correcting the serious flaws and errors that have developed in the system is like that classic definition of Insanity.
The United Tribes like the GOP need to be broken up for Good Reason. Either the GOP will end up correcting itself or it will have no future (and will do as much harmful resistance to correction as it can get away with).
The ability of groups like the GOP to evade exposure of their members to the understanding of their collective unacceptability is a serious problem that needs to be corrected.
Each action in the Sustainable Development Goals can be a wedge in the likes of the GOP, as long as the people trying to improve the understanding of the incorrectly developed beliefs among the likes of the GOP Unite in support of all of the Sustainable Development Goals. The alternative, a fracturing of the efforts to correct all that is collectively incorrect about the GOP, is likely exactly what the Tribal Leaders of the GOP want. They want to see Climate Action people arguing against Social correction people, or against other pursuers of different environmental or social or political corrections. The likes of the GOP do not want to see anything "change contrary to their interests". They really do not want to see "All Others Uniting to Correct Them".
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michael sweet at 21:48 PM on 11 February 2019A Green New Deal must not sabotage climate goals
Red Baron,
I see no references to peer reviewed data in your most recent response. It appears to me that your claims of unbelievable amounts of CO2 sequestered in farmland come from your personal projections unknown to anyone else. Your objections to fee and dividend are unsupported by the peer reviewed literature.
You have made these unsupported claims repeatedly here at Skeptical Science. To me it is simply propaganda for your personal agenda. Find some papers that support your claims. While I think your goals of improving land using organic principles is laudable, you have not demonstrated that it is achievable.
I will not post again on this topic unless you provide actual citations to support your wild claims.
Climate Smart Agriculture may assist in the response to AGW, but it is not a silver bullet to resolve Global Warming.
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scaddenp at 19:34 PM on 11 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #6
KR - actually that is a good point. Thanks for injecting some hope. Nigelj - the public support in the poll was based on a paraphrase of text which pretty much asked if you support motherhood and apple pie. The numerous attack points in the actual text will see that support plummet as the detail becomes known.
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nigelj at 18:33 PM on 11 February 2019On Buying Insurance, and Ignoring Cost-Benefit Analysis
Great read. Agree with the need to base risk analysis on worst case scenarios even if they are low probability. This is the entire planet we are talking about, so you have to be very cautious.
Article says "Robert Pollin, an economist who has studied green new deal options, estimates that annual investment of about 1.5 percent of GDP would be needed. That’s about $300 billion a year for the United States, and four times as much, $1.2 trillion a year, for the world economy. "
To put this in context, America spent approx. the following last year as a percentage of GDP: Military 3.1%, education 4.9%, healthcare (private plus government) 17%, and pensions 7.4%. These numbers are easily googled.
It just seems that a Green New Deal investment of 1.5% is very manageable. Even if it was 3% its manageable.
So why is the world in such a state of apathy and slowness on the whole thing? I think it's not really economic. It's psychological apathy and confusion. It's denial campaigns, and poor communication to the public of costs. Its political capture by corporate lobby groups.
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