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Comments 122451 to 122500:

122451. thingadonta at 23:26 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        "Strontium is produced by rock weathering, the process that removes CO2 from the air. " Current deforestration is causing soils to wash away and exposing large areas of fresh rocks in the tropics to the atmosphere. This increaes the rate of rock weathering and therefore c02 is also being removed from the air at greater rates due to current deforestation. Never heard this mentioned from pro AGW advocates. "Consequently, the ratio of strontium isotopes can be used to determine how quickly rock weathering removed CO2 from the atmosphere in the past. " Unfortunately, Sr isotope ratios are also affected by amount/type of volcanism, so the correlation is not perfect. "Using strontium levels, Young determined that during the late Ordovician, rock weathering was at high levels while volcanic activity, which adds CO2 to the atmosphere, dropped." It is well known that a vast belt of subduction -related increase in volcanism occurred fromn the middle to late ordovician from the stratigraphic record, so the inference of reduced volcanism based on Sr ratios above is wrong. "This led to CO2 levels falling below 3000 parts per million which was low enough to initiate glaciation - the growing of ice sheets". This is an inferance based on chicken and egg arguments, c02 could have dropped because ocean temperatures dropped first, causing increased solubility of c02, not the other way around. This is why c02 rises and drops throughout geological hitory,it follows ocean temperatures (eg recent glacial/interglacials) rarely the other way around. "Young 2009 - CO2 levels dropped at the same time that sea surface temperatures dropped". As expected from the above, and consistent throughout the geological record and from simple chemistry. The resolution from Young 2009 is not sufficient to determine cause and effect, however the resolution from recent ice ages is, and they show c02 closely follows ocean temperatures. Your conclusion that c02 within the ordovocian is consisent with c02 as a strong dirver of climate is academic gymnastics. No such conclusion can be made from the data.
122452. Ned at 23:15 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        I see Chris Canaris and others up-thread alluding to the average levels of CO2 in the Ordovician, which were much higher than today's. Even the new estimates (~3000 ppm) for the late Ordovician are, as Chris points out, about 8 times the current concentration. What's up? As John Cook mentions in the very first paragraph of this post, the sun has been getting brighter over time. While the largest variations in total solar irradiance in recent decades have been around 0.1%, over the lifetime of the Earth the Sun's brightness has increased something like 25-30%. So, with a Sun that was much, much dimmer than today, life (and liquid water) could only exist on Earth in the Paleozoic with much higher levels of CO2. Likewise, a drop in CO2 to levels that seem high today was enough to produce glaciation. See the "faint early Sun" paradox.
122453. Ned at 23:06 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        gallopingcamel writes: Ned (#20), are you saying that CO2 in the atmosphere does not matter unless it is caused by humans? Sorry, if there is any illogical argument going on here it is not from Arkadiusz Semczysza. That's not even remotely what I said in that comment. How on earth did you take that message? Please go back and re-read my comment, more closely. Do you see the four papers I link to? Every one of them is about a time (or times) in the Earth's history when CO2 levels increased and the planet then warmed in response. It's mind-boggling that you could be so confused about what was written in fairly clear words. (If English isn't your first language, I apologize.)
122454. James Wight at 23:01 PM on 13 March 2010
        Every skeptic argument ever used
        I've just noticed that "We're coming out of the Little Ice Age" has now disappeared from the taxonomy list (but I can get to it from the numbered list). Where's it gone?
        Response: It disappeared into the ether of incorrectly categorised arguments - I've reached in and extracted the argument, putting it back where it belongs. Thanks for pointing out it's disappearance. :-)
122455. ScaredAmoeba at 19:27 PM on 13 March 2010
        It's not happening
        A valuable resource! Thanks!
122456. Riccardo at 18:46 PM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        Galileo is particularly famous in the skeptics quarters. I find it a bit superficial. The first thing that people usually overlook is that Galileo was not the first to think of an eliocentric solar system. What i mean is that new ideas do not come from nowhere, it's more like an ongoing cultural process which end up in a clear statement (theory) or new strong evidence. What Galileo did is a measurement with a new and powerful instrument he developed. The second is that Galileo is so beloved for having been harassed not by other scientist but by the Catholic Church, he confronted a religious belief. Although he put is life at risk, from a modern scientific point of view it was a relatively easy game. The third is that Arrhenius had a similar fate. After Angstrom criticism, a scientific one this time, his idea was dismissed for decades. In the long run, the scientific self-correcting method prevailed. This is indeed the very same fate any new idea "deserves" in the highly sceptical scientific community. Galileo Galilei is indeed one of the best minds in the whole history of humans. He deserves much more than the trivial and scientifically irrelevant fame for the dispute with the Church. He is often called "the Father of Modern Science" and Stephen Hawking once said that Galileo "perhaps more than any other single person, was responsible for the birth of modern science". He studied the great ellenistic scientists and revived and applied their scientific method. He was a giant and it's really depressing seeing his name so badly invoked. I need to apologize for this offtopic disgression but i hope that sooner or later we will see his name linked to his more important findings and contribution to science.
122457. chris1204 at 18:14 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Since 3000 parts per million CO2 (as compared to 389 parts per million today) apparently sufficed to initiate glaciation, what are projected CO2 levels over what time scale using a 'business as usual' scenario? In short, do we envisage an anthropogenic CO2 and other greenhouse gas 'hockey stick' as opposed to 'just' a temperature hockey stick? And what would be the time scale for such projections? I note the comment from John as quoted by Leo G @ 36 - do we know of any other negative feedback loops apart from acceleration of rock weathering? Incidentally, I recall reading about proposals for geosequestration of CO2. As matters stand, Ordovician CO2 levels were more than eight times higher than today's. I ask because people tend to resist making changes when not faced with immediate profits, costs, or like consequences. Moreover, we find it very difficult to consider consequences extending beyond our lifetimes (and perhaps our immediate offspring's'). Even so, I'm not totally pessimistic about our species' prospects for survival - our capacity for foresight (ie, respond to future consequences) is part of our remarkable adaptability. The problem lies in our inability to agree on future consequences.
122458. gallopingcamel at 17:56 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Did John Cook omit some relevant papers from C.R Scotese, R.A. Berner, R. Lindzen and others? It appears that CO2 concentrations were very high in the Ordovician with comparatively little variation and yet the temperature swung from hot (no ice at either pole) to cold (extensive glaciation) and then back to hot again. Hardly a ringing endorsement for the canard that CO2 drives global temperatures. My understanding is that CO2 concentrations were in the range 4,000 to 6,000 ppm for the entire Ordovician period. Given that the radiation forcing due to CO2 follows a logarithmic relationship one would not expect variations in this range to have a significant effect on radiation capture. Once you have captured 95% of the outgoing energy in the 15-16 micron bands the remaining 5% won't make any noticeable difference. To claim that CO2 caused the wild temperature swings in the Ordovician fails the sanity test. Ned (#20), are you saying that CO2 in the atmosphere does not matter unless it is caused by humans? Sorry, if there is any illogical argument going on here it is not from Arkadiusz Semczysza.
122459. gallopingcamel at 16:56 PM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        Ned (#69), it seems that I am not making myself clear. Let me try again. Counting the number of scientists (or even the number of published papers) is meaningless. In science, quality is more important than quantity. One Gallileo prevails over a multitude of Urban VIIIs. Real science cannot be settled. Anyone who makes statements such as "the science is settled" or "unequivocal" betrays his lack of understanding of what science is about. Such people are anti-science. When I hear such statements coming from Al Gore I don't get upset because Al does not pretend to be a scientist. Prominent "scientists" such as Watson and Trenberth should avoid publishing such exaggerated claims if they want to retain the respect of their peers or the general public. doug_bostrom (#65), I could have gone on at length about Trenberth's paper but it would not have been relevant to my point. The quote I chose demonstrates that Dr. Trenberth lacks objectivity in relation to "global warming" which he should realise is not scientific truth. It is a theory and a shaky one at that.
122460. dhogaza at 16:39 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        HumanityRules - what is the source of your graphic? Hopefully you realize that the thrust of the two new papers is that earlier reconstructions don't have sufficient resolution to determine what happened during the timescales of actual glaciation. Showing a graph of low-resolutions won't rebut the newer papers. So, really, the provenance of the graph is crucial. Thus far, you've posted a random graph hosted by arstechnica (good enough at what they do, which is not science) without provenance, and saying "nya nya proves published papers wrong!" I could draw and post any graph I choose here and say the same. You don't refute published work by showing a cute graph with no provenance provided, sorry. Just doesn't work that way. Oh, and your green line is labeled "biodiversity", what does that have to do with geological weathering causing sequestration of CO2???????????????????????????????????????????????????????
122461. miekol at 16:24 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Mikemcc and Tenney Naumer Thank you both for responding. Mikemcc first, you said.... Ok Miekol, I'm assuming that your tongue is firmly in your cheek, but I'll bite anyway. What cost would you put on this mammoth re-building task? Is it likely to go ahead for the inhabitants of the Maldives, Seychelles, Bangladesh, Micronesia? What highlands do those people have. Each time Bangladesh floods 100s die, thousands suffer from epidemics from contaminated water and millions are made homeless. What happens when rainfall patterns are disrupted causing problems for food growers, or when plants are ready for pollination too early for the insects that traditionally pollinate them? ******************************************************** Yes Mikemcc you did read me correctly, i did have my tongue in cheek but only lightly not firmly :-) Firstly get use to idea that no matter what we do the climate is going to change. Its alway has and always will. Better we persue increasing the worlds wealth and more evenly share it, not condemn the 3rd world to permanent poverty and cause much of the 1st world to join them. Yes it can go ahead for the Maldives and others. All it needs is the will. The will to create greater wealth and to plan the necessary construction required. Google .... Globalism World of Plenty miekol@bigpond.com Cheers Michael Smith ******************************************************* Tenney Naumer , you said... Miekol conveniently forgets the increasing acidification of the ocean's and its consequent destruction of aquatic life. We can't survive with dead oceans. ******************************************************* Tenney, please supply me a link regarding the increasing acidification of the ocean's and its consequent destruction of aquatic life. I recall reading an article that the atmosphere has contained 10 times the current level of CO2 in the past, and aquatic life must have survived, its still with us. Google ... Globalism World of Plenty miekol@bigpond.com Cheers Michael Smith *******************************************************
122462. Leo G at 16:02 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        J.C. - {But unfortunately this process occurs over geological periods - over periods of thousands of years or greater. The process is way too small to offset our CO2 emissions (some hard numbers would be nice - can anyone help here?) So rock weathering is not a magic bullet that will save us from ourselves. However, there is research into accelerating rock weathering process as a way of sequestering CO2.} I like Prof. Dyson's idea about genetically engineering carbon eating trees!
122463. HumanityRules at 14:58 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        19.dhogaza at 02:16 AM on 13 March, 2010 Your wrong Young is far from clear when the whole of the ordovian period is analysed. Here is a graph showing SST My reading of Young is he is completely unable to explain the temp drop from 490-460 mya when CO2 levels remained high (above 5000ppm). To paraphrase you. This picture clearly can't explain the first half of the Ordovian?
122464. HumanityRules at 14:14 PM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        John you don't mention in the first paragraph what method (or a reference) for the 5600ppm CO2 in the Ordovician era. Could you give us a heads up on that? If you are to accept the new estimates it shouldn't just make us re-appraise the conditions in the Ordovician it should also make us re-appraise the methodology used to derive the 5600ppm estimate. What implication does this have for other theories based on this method? As Young says in his 2010 paper while his observations and theory may possibly explain the glaciation period they can't explain the initiation of cooling through the preceeding era's. Based on Young's theory CO2 levels are still too high to explain the initial phase of cooling. This means there are still major holes in this theory. Finally I'm not sure that your final statement is totally accurate. Even if Youngs research were correct what we now have are competing theories in what happened during the Ordovian era. As Young aknowledges in the intro to his papers there are even competing theories to explain how the process occured. The science of this period seems to still be under debate, the work of this group may add to our knowledge but doesn't seem to totally re-orientate the field. This leads me to my major worry with John's article. While being selective in his choice of time periods, Late Ordovian, ignoring the early and mid periods he is able to make such a strident statement in his last two lines. Finally the original estimate of 5600ppm is still out there in the literarture it will take time for the geology profession through further publications, conferences and debate to decide which becomes the accepted best estimates. I don't see this has happened. Simple publication of this paper does not overturn the science.
        Response: The 5600 ppm value comes from Royer 2006. In this paper, Royer discusses how the data for CO2 levels over this period is very coarse with poor time resolution. Therefore, there is no contradiction or competition between Young 2010 and Royer 2006 - Young 2010 is filling in the gaps.
122465. Ned at 12:48 PM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        1077 writes: Ned (#69) gives an admirable defence of his teacher and probably mentor. No, I've never met Trenberth face to face as far as I know. We used his textbook in one or another of the climate modeling courses I took in graduate school. Prof. Trenberth seems to be sincere too. But what he says is that we just do not know enough. How does he jump from there to an affirmative belief if any kind is intellectually suspect. Anyone here who knows enough about Christopher Landsea who appears to have a scientific disagreement with Prof. Trenberth. Is Mr. Landsea dishonest by any chance? I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, though I tried hard to be clear in my comment. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing about the science; the problem is with claiming that someone secretly believes the opposite of what he clearly and adamantly says he believes.
122466. suibhne at 12:07 PM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        People who have taken a political stance on what is really a matter of scientific fact have often been wrong footed. How many ended up on the wrong side of reality after backing Lysenko or Sir Cyril Burt? Let honest science investigate the nature of the physical world and let politics address the allocation of resources.
122467. Don at 09:38 AM on 13 March 2010
        Does record snowfall disprove global warming?
        I want to thank Riccardo and doug_bostrom for their helpful comments. I think the temperature records are an excellent proof that the climate is warming. I didn’t really want to imply that the climate is not warming because there is much evidence that it is. If you look at the NCDC data set (ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/anomalies/annual.land_ocean.90S.90N.df_1901-2000mean.dat) it shows a 30 year period of stationary temperatures, then a 30 year period of a rapidly rising temperatures followed by a repeat of that cycle. While temperature highs and lows are good proof that the temperature is increasing since it includes the last peek of that cycle, the better evidence is the NCDC data set. Yes I know that there are some questions about that dataset that has come up lately, however I have read the skeptics arguments and don’t believe there will be any major change. Also I might note that the location where the warming is occurring could just be part of the NAO and PDO cycle we are in. You may have to go back 60 years to make that comparison. My big concern is this: We may be in one of those 30 year periods where the temperature will change little, however sometime in the late 2020’s the temperature will start to climb again and climb fast. The issue of what is caused by “Global Warming” and what isn’t is a side issue. What’s important is the issue of what percentage is natural verses man-made. Climategate seems to be drawing the debate into unhelpful areas and people seem to be using it at proof that all the Global Warming is natural. This is most certainly wrong. Anyhow that is what spurred me to make that reply.
122468. yocta at 09:29 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        1077 said: “Thus the poll should yield an equal percentage of liberal and conservative sympathizers on both sides of the controversy.” Let’s suppose that such a poll would achieve these results. I am to infer that this would show that indeed it doesn’t matter which side of politics people sit, it would mean that belief climate change is apolitical? In principle it sounds great...but when you have results such as this: http://www.gallup.com/poll/126563/conservatives-doubts-global-warming-grow.aspx It highlights the danger of siding the science with political agenda, and destroys the neutrality that scientists generally are perceived as having in their work. Say political party X offers more funding for a particular science project (not even climate science related), or better, some more funding for hospitals, then I would expect a survey would show a spike in doctors that have a political preference that is higher for party X. The results would not be an inconvenience, but would be highly spurious. Maybe i’m lost with what you’re talking (perhaps you flatter my intelligence) but what exactly is a scientific poll, and what interesting answers are we to expect from it?
122469. 1077 at 09:14 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        Ned (#69) gives an admirable defence of his teacher and probably mentor. Prof. Trenberth seems to be sincere too. But what he says is that we just do not know enough. How does he jump from there to an affirmative belief if any kind is intellectually suspect. Anyone here who knows enough about Christopher Landsea who appears to have a scientific disagreement with Prof. Trenberth. Is Mr. Landsea dishonest by any chance? Just curious as a non-specialist beholding professional disagreement which, if it was only academic, it would be interesting and essentially none of my business. Given the stakes however, permit me to be very skeptical.
122470. yocta at 08:54 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        While we are talking about the Snowball earth, I thought i'd post some paraphrased excerpts from the "Principles of Planetary Climate" the book John recommended to explain it a little better: The Snowball phenomenon is pregnant with Big Questions, the most obvious of which are: How do you get in? And how do you get out?... Most theories for the entry into a Snowball involve the drawdown of whatever greenhouse gas had previously been maintaining the planet’s warmth – usually CO2 and CH4 in some combination.... Assuming for the moment that the cooling process caused a Hard Snowball, the next question is how to deglaciate the planet...Based on rather simple reasoning of the sort that will be covered in the remainder of this book, Kirschvink proposed that once the Earth freezes over, the weathering of silicate to carbonate (which requires liquid water washing over weatherable rocks) ceases, so that CO2 outgassed from the Earth’s interior accumulates in the atmosphere until it reaches concentrations sufficient to cause a deglaciation. I highly recommend this book to fellow n00bs! RE#32 dghozza: yes please!
122471. Ned at 08:53 AM on 13 March 2010
        Does record snowfall disprove global warming?
        I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but perhaps there should be some asymmetry in how we see record warm vs record cold days now. I don't take "record hot" days as proof of global warming (there's no need for that! the proof lies elsewhere). But I do take them as reminders or foretastes of what we're moving towards. In other words, the heat waves we experience this summer will be typical summer weather when my daughter is my age, or my parents' age. They're signs of what is to come. In contrast, I take cold weather as a reminder of what we're moving away from. Where I live there were fewer than normal cold days this winter. When I was a child, those days were more common. Half a century from now, what are now mild days will be considered cool, and the few "cold" days we still have will be even rarer. Snow is more complicated, as has been discussed repeatedly in this thread it's not linearly related to temperature.
122472. Rob Honeycutt at 08:50 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        doug_bostrom... Good call. I think you're right. It's not just a matter of tabloid media ruling the day. It's also a function of basic human nature. Dan Miller does an interesting talk where he discusses natural human responses to danger. The instinctual responses that move people to action. It's purely an intellectualized fear that most people can't grasp. http://fora.tv/2009/08/18/A_REALLY_Inconvenient_Truth_Dan_Miller#fullprogram (click section 9)
122473. 1077 at 08:36 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        dhogaza 48. You gave another - very strong - anecdotal response! Thank you.
122474. Doug Bostrom at 08:25 AM on 13 March 2010
        Does record snowfall disprove global warming?
        Don at 07:57 AM on 13 March, 2010 Don, further to Riccardo's points, it helps to remember that the little of bit of warming we've seen is not equally distributed about the planet, tends to be greater in the "upper" part of the Northern Hemisphere. Blaming everything on global warming is a mistake as you say; there should be some line of evidence pointing that way as well as a clear understanding that each circumstance represents a statistical data point.
122475. Riccardo at 08:15 AM on 13 March 2010
        Does record snowfall disprove global warming?
        Don, i'm sure that we all will not blame "everything we see on Global Warming". But record low temperature are becoming less frequent and record high more frequent. Record snow, instead, is a completely different process which does not match with record low temperatures. I also agree that it is hard to believe that "just" one degree or so may be responsibile of significant changes; but we all now that few degrees, maybe 5 °C, below current is called a glaciation. Really hard to believe, isn't it? Science way too often tells us stories hard to believe.
122476. Don at 07:57 AM on 13 March 2010
        Does record snowfall disprove global warming?
        Note: I’m not a scientist but I wanted to state my observations. It would be easier to accept that heavy snows doesn't disprove “Global Warming” if it weren't for the fact that I constantly hear that lack of snow is because of “Global Warming”. Certainly the heavy snow should disprove the idea that a lack of snow is the result of Global Warming. Over the last century the global temperature increased by .6 degree Celsius. I find it hard to believe that .6 degree increase can cause the large climate changes that it has been accused of. It seems clear to me that it takes a larger change in the climate than the .6 degree measured. This much larger change can only have come from natural cycles in the climate that results in hot spots and cold spots changing places (such as the PDO). Some such cycles last as long as 60 years and produce large climate changes between isolated areas. Perhaps if we quit blaming everything we see on “Global Warming” then it might be easier to get people to believe us and we wouldn’t have to explain that large snow storms won’t disprove “Global Warming”.
122477. Doug Bostrom at 07:52 AM on 13 March 2010
        It's not bad
        Vinny Burgoo at 07:35 AM on 13 March, 2010 "The whole field is less than scientifically kosher and large areas of it are politicised. " Mountains out of molehills, you illustrate my point nicely, thanks. What about dehydration is political, anyway? I don't understand that.
122478. Vinny Burgoo at 07:35 AM on 13 March 2010
        It's not bad
        Robust counter-argument against what, doug_bostrom? It's certainly a good argument against political overreaction. Does it really not concern you that bogus claims are being made about the water supplies of one-sixth of the world's population? (Yes, I did read your lecture about seasonal flows etc. Meltwater from Kehrwald's 'TP' glaciers mostly coincides with the monsoon, when the glacial component is more like 2%, not 20%. So where is this one-sixth of the world's population? Not in the oases of Western China, which do rely to some extent in summer on glacial melt. That's most likely bad news for tens or scores of millions who live there but 100 million is not 1000 million. Exaggeration is neither scientific nor big nor clever. Also, your conflation of snow- and glacier-melt was... unhelpful.) Like many of your stripe, you are hung up on the denial of the theoretical basis for AGW. Things have moved on. Impacts are what matter and the science of predicting impacts is demonstrably weak and overstated. The whole field is less than scientifically kosher and large areas of it are politicised. It really shouldn't be up to ordinary 'hair-splitting' citizens to sort this out. It takes hours and days for a non-specialist to track back a single claim to its source and evaluate it. The IPCC is supposed to have done all that for us. It hasn't. I'm pissed off. Don't be surprised that a lot of other people are pissed off. And if you're not pissed off too, that isn't very flattering to you, especially when you're posting on a website called Skeptical Science. (Pre-emption: Yes, Kehrwald et al was published post-AR4. Will it be in AR5, though? Let's bloody hope not. Barnett too.)
122479. dhogaza at 07:08 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        

        I can throw in a few ideas regarding deep weathering and the timescales involved - if people are interested

        Oh ... please! please! please! :)
122480. Ned at 06:51 AM on 13 March 2010
        Climate's changed before
        If the forcing is transient then the temperature will return to its original equilibrium, yes. If the forcing persists for thousands of years (like CO2 in the atmosphere) then the planet's temperature will reach a new and higher equilibrium while that forcing persists.
122481. JDoddsGW at 06:42 AM on 13 March 2010
        Climate's changed before
        The initial statement says Natural climate change in the past proves that climate is sensitive to an energy imbalance. If the planet accumulates heat, global temperatures will go up." This is false: If the planet accumulates heat then it will be hotter and hence will radiate more heat out until it returns to equilibrium per the gray body Stefan- Boltzmann Law. The planet goes from warming in the morning to cooling in the evening as the amount of absorbed energy increases and decreases. It passes through equilibrium temperature exactly twice every day. The concept that the planet could accumulate heat and be out of equilibrium for any extended length of time is just not possible. The computer model however assume this. They are wrong.
122482. ubrew12 at 06:40 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        paulgrace said: "@Arkadiusz Semczyszak,... if past warming events always preceeded CO2 increases, it wouldn't matter" The analogy I give skeptics is that just because a car accident usually precedes a broken car doesn't mean a broken car can't cause a car accident.
122483. roperld at 06:36 AM on 13 March 2010
        Antarctica is gaining ice
        For a comprehensive analysis of Antarctica sea ice data, including the effect of the ozone hole see http://www.roperld.com/science/AntarcticSeaIce.htm . Dave Roper
122484. GFW at 06:26 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        I've got another example of CO2 change fully preceding temperature change. The Azolla event. The relatively recent history of orbital cycles driving small warming/cooling trends that are amplified by CO2 (and thus giving the appearance of temperature leading CO2) might just be the exception, not the rule. It's all about what mechanisms are present.
122485. GFW at 06:13 AM on 13 March 2010
        Watts Up With That's ignorance regarding Antarctic sea ice
        It should be pointed out that an increase in Antarctic sea ice was predicted in 1992 by climate modelers.
122486. John Mason at 05:49 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        I can throw in a few ideas regarding deep weathering and the timescales involved - if people are interested. I've researched & published on same over here in the UK. But right now, my tea's ready! It'll be UK-centric but I think I made some useful conclusions in my work. Be back later - likely in the morning UK time. Cheers - John
122487. dhogaza at 05:35 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        "Is rock weathering factored in to CO2-rise predictions in the current models? " This happens on geological timescales, as I understand it. However, speeding the process artificially is one of the geoengineering ideas kicked around out there.
122488. dhogaza at 05:33 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        "true enough. I only find the snowball earth case clearer because it has puzzled scientist for a long while. There's no other plausible way to come out from an almost fully glaciated state and there are no other concomitant effect to possibly invoke." Yes, the snowball earth case is great, I just found it ironic that Arkadiusz Semczyszak made his claim in response to a top post showing his claim to be false!
122489. paulgrace at 05:11 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        @John Cook Is rock weathering factored in to CO2-rise predictions in the current models? As glacial retreat ends because the glaciers are gone, rock weathering will be at it's maximum. How similar in scale is this CO2 absorption compared to human output? (A century from now--[shudder])
        Response: That's a good question. Rock weathering is a negative feedback - as temperature gets hotter, rock weathering activity increases so more CO2 is removed from the atmosphere. In fact, this is one of nature's "control knobs" to ensure climate doesn't get too hot or cold - when it gets colder, there's less CO2 removal which leads to CO2 rising and warming the earth. When the Earth gets too hot, rock weathering removes more CO2 which has a cooling effect.
        
        But unfortunately this process occurs over geological periods - over periods of thousands of years or greater. The process is way too small to offset our CO2 emissions (some hard numbers would be nice - can anyone help here?) So rock weathering is not a magic bullet that will save us from ourselves. However, there is research into accelerating rock weathering process as a way of sequestering CO2.
122490. paulgrace at 05:07 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        @Arkadiusz Semczyszak, Both are true: Temperature rise releases CO2 and CO2 increases temperature rise. This is known as a "positive feedback loop", and it's very unfortunate. But if past warming events always preceeded CO2 increases, it wouldn't matter (even though you are wrong, they don't). Today we are increasing CO2 levels, which will increase temperatures, which will further increase CO2 levels beyond which we are directly responsible for. Your argument is A) Wrong and B) Not relevant.
122491. Doug Bostrom at 04:26 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        robhon at 04:18 AM on 13 March, 2010 Here's a timely article looking at a number of polling results and taking from them some longer term speculations on where public perception is headed. Well worth a read, some very interesting comparisons: "An Ipsos-Mori poll in the UK released in February showed those thinking climate change is "definitely" happening had fallen from 44% to 31% in the year to the middle of January. A Populus poll for the BBC conducted on 3-4 February revealed that 25% of people didn't think global warming was happening, up from 15% in November. Look at that the other way round and the Ipsos-Mori poll showed 91% of people accepted climate change was happening, and the Populus poll 75%. The difference is probably due to the former poll not including people over 65, who are significantly more sceptical, while the latter was conducted at the peak of negative news coverage about climate science. As ever with polls, the different phrasing of questions matters too. Nonetheless, confidence has fallen. Why? An obvious factor is the recent public relations disaster suffered by climate scientists, including both the leaked emails from the University of East Anglia and the false claim that all Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035, which was included in the report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). But this is unlikely to be the whole story, as only 57% of those polled by Populus had heard these stories. Far more – 83% – had heard about, and were experiencing, an exceptionally cold winter. That's a pretty tangible opinion former, even if it is wrong, given the crucial difference between week-to-week weather and decade-to decade climate. More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/mar/12/climate-change-belief-polls
122492. Rob Honeycutt at 04:18 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        oracle2world... I think we spend time refuting it because it is so effectively used by tabloid media as "proof" that "most scientist" don't believe in AGW. Just look at the polls regarding global warming over the past few years. We are currently losing the battle to express to the world (or at least Americans) that this is real. http://www.gallup.com/poll/126560/Americans-Global-Warming-Concerns-Continue-Drop.aspx What is the point of studying global warming if we idly stand by and allow tabloid media to control the message? I think sites like this are an excellent start at again making clear to the general population what science really says about AGW.
122493. Tenney Naumer at 04:16 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Miekol conveniently forgets the increasing acidification of the ocean's and its consequent destruction of aquatic life. We can't survive with dead oceans.
122494. Rob Honeycutt at 04:04 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        Ned... Brilliant post regarding Trenberth. Excellent.
122495. angliss at 03:16 AM on 13 March 2010
        Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
        greendirectionconsulting (#68) - I noticed, but didn't feel it necessary to comment. You're right, and that's an important part of the OISM story that should be added to this site's counterargument on this (which is, at present, a direct copy of this guest post).
122496. Doug Bostrom at 03:13 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        RSVP at 01:37 AM on 13 March 2010 Lest anybody who read RSVP's post regarding saturation wonder if the saturation argument is worthy, I recommend reading A Saturated Gassy Argument by Spencer Weart. Executive summary: RSVP's argument is too simple to capture the details of how this system functions. Weart is singularly gifted with explanation and explains how this RSVP's simple model is incorrect in a way all of us can understand.
122497. Riccardo at 02:42 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        dhogaza, true enough. I only find the snowball earth case clearer because it has puzzled scientist for a long while. There's no other plausible way to come out from an almost fully glaciated state and there are no other concomitant effect to possibly invoke.
122498. CBDunkerson at 02:26 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Arkadiusz Semczyszak, even setting aside that the current CO2 increase preceded the current temperature increase AND that the climate record shows MANY cases of CO2 decreases preceding temperature decreases AND that the majority of EVERY major temperature increase in the record has been preceded by CO2 increases (that is, only a small portion of the temp increase preceded the CO2 rise)... your root principal would still be wrong. Around 700 million years ago nearly all of the water on the planet froze. This prevented the oceans from absorbing CO2 and thus allowed the atmospheric CO2 content to skyrocket... which then led to warming which brought the planet out of the 'Snowball Earth' state. The claim that CO2 changes always come AFTER temperature changes is simply false. RSVP, your model for testing the existence of the greenhouse effect seems to be lacking a Sun. Put in a visible light laser being continuously fired at the anvil to heat it up and make sure that the energy flows are significant enough for instruments to detect and you'd have a valid comparison.
122499. Ned at 02:18 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        Arkadiusz Semczyszak writes: Never in the history of Earth is not observed (clearly proven) first increase in CO2 concentration and then the temperature rise. Has always been the opposite. Often, the first temperature and then decreased CO2 content. This is a strange and illogical argument. When was the last time that people extracted large quantities of fossil carbon and injected it into the atmosphere? During the Pleistocene, CO2 changes have lagged temperature changes, because the temperature changes were driven by orbital forcings. Everybody understands this. It would be very hard to explain if CO2 didn't lag temperature in the ice core records! And the magnitude of the warming/cooling can't be recreated without inclusion of the CO2 feedback. Claiming that the CO2 lag during glacial/interglacial cycles proves that CO2 can't drive temperature in other circumstances is like arguing that the existence of fires caused by lightning proves that some other fire couldn't be caused by arson. Finally, there have probably been a number of cases in the climate record where CO2 increases led to temperature rises, rather than just serving as amplifying feedbacks. Flood basalt outbreaks are one example: Ganino 2009: "Most mass extinctions during the last 500 m.y. coincide with eruptions of large igneous provinces [...] Contact metamorphism around intrusions in dolomite, evaporite, coal, or organic-rich shale generates large quantities of greenhouse and toxic gases (CO2, CH4, SO2), which subsequently vent to the atmosphere and cause global warming and mass extinctions. The release of sediment derived gases had a far greater impact on the environment than the emission of magmatic gases." Saunders 2009: "Volcanism released large masses of sulphate aerosols and carbon dioxide, the former triggering short-duration volcanic winters, the latter leading to long-term warming. Whilst the mass of CO2 released from individual eruptions was small compared with the total mass of carbon in the atmosphere-ocean system, the long ‘mean lifetime’ of atmospheric CO2, compared with the eruption flux and duration, meant that significant accumulation could occur over periods of 10^5 years. Compromise of the carbon sequestration systems (by curtailment of photosynthesis, destruction of biomass, and warming and acidification of the oceans) probably led to rapid atmospheric CO2 build-up, warming, and shallow-water anoxia, leading ultimately to mass extinction." Svensen 2009: "The end of the Permian period is marked by global warming and the biggest known mass extinction on Earth. [...] Heating of organic-rich shale and petroleum bearing evaporites around sill intrusions led to greenhouse gas and halocarbon generation in sufficient volumes to cause global warming and atmospheric ozone depletion. Basin scale gas production potential estimates show that metamorphism of organic matter and petroleum could have generated > 100,000 Gt CO2. [...] The results indicate that global warming and ozone depletion were the two main drivers for the end-Permian environmental crisis." Kürschner 2008: "Our results demonstrate that this climate optimum was forced significantly by elevated CO2 levels similar to those, for example, during the early Eocene. A likely source of the late, early, and middle Miocene CO2 increases was extensive volcanic activity during the Columbia River Flood Basalt volcanism and the Central European volcanism. The marked CO2 drop during the Miocene, in turn, may be the result of increased Corg burial resulting from the Himalayan uplift and/or of enhanced marine productivity in the Pacific ocean and the global occurrence of vast brown-coal-forming basins."
122500. dhogaza at 02:16 AM on 13 March 2010
        CO2 levels during the late Ordovician
        

        there has been no CO2 leading an increase in temperature just because there has never been humans around able to produce it in such large quantities.

        Actually, the picture painted for the Ordovician appears to be such a case, just with limited precision and details in the beginning. i.e. high volcanic activity led to high levels of CO2 and a warmer world. Volcanic activity lessened, weathering of rocks lowered CO2 and the earth cooled to the point where extensive ice sheets grew. This led to less weathering, thus a growth in CO2 (presumably due to volcanism???), and warming. This picture clearly shows CO2 as being the "control knob" during the Ordovician.

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