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MA Rodger at 22:50 PM on 28 April 2016Greenhouse effect has been falsified
ConcernedCitizen @112.
Another take on answering your question.
Sort of yes, but only a little bit of that implied by the moon's maximum temperatures. The main reason the moon reaches 130ºC is because it has a 655 hour rotation so the equatorial moon surface is being heated by sunlight for 2 weeks at a stretch rather than the 12 hours here on Earth.
A quick look at some max/min temperatures for places on the Earth's equator shows a difference of about 10ºC night to day. This is an air temperature. I would imagine rock temperatures on Earth (which is the equivalent of what is being measured on the moon) would show a greater variation. Looking at a graph of moon surface temperatures, the moon temperature rises from 300K something like 40ºC in 12 hours.
Part of the reason for extra heating on the moon will be because our atmosphere reflects away sunlight as well as also absorbing sunlight before it reaches the ground (famously the UV component of sunlight). The atmosphere also cools the surface through evaporation and conduction/convection. I'm not sure that any of these mechanisms would be called a "GH effect" but rather the effect of having an atmosphere.
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Tom Curtis at 22:41 PM on 28 April 2016Greenhouse effect has been falsified
ConcernedCitizen @112, no. Rather, the equalization of temperatures by the distribution of energy (by the atmosphere and ocean) reduces maximum temperatures and increases minimum temperatures - as anybody knows who compares maximums and minimums in a desert with those on the coast.
And in case you are wondering, the estimated 33 C increase in Global Mean Surface Temperature due to the Earth's greenhouse is relative to a situation with perfectly distributed energy on the surface (ie, all points are the same temperature, whether polar or equatorial, and whether day or night). That means it is an under estimate of the temperature impact of the greenhouse effect.
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Tom Curtis at 22:35 PM on 28 April 2016CO2 effect is saturated
ConcernedCitizen @408, I am sure that nobody can explain it to you, as you have no interest in learning. That, at least, is evident from the straw man you construct. The actual theory is that CO2 in the tropophere at altitude z has less thermal energy than CO2 at altitude z-100 meters. Therefore the total thermal emissions by CO2 at altitude z will be less than that by CO2 at altitude z-100 meters. Individual photons will have approximately the same energy (which is a function of wavelength), but fewer of them will be emitted.
As to why the CO2 has less thermal energy with altitude, a partial answer is that because it is at a higher altitude, it has more gravitational potential energy and less energy of motion (which includes thermal energy). That relationship is further modulated by changes in pressure with altitude (decreasing pressure cools gasses). If you want to know more, you can start reading here.
In your incoherent way, you are actually denying a combination of the first law of thermodynamics, the ideal gas laws, Newton's law of gravitation, and Planck's law. Not a bad score in the science denial stakes.
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ConcernedCitizen at 21:41 PM on 28 April 2016CO2 effect is saturated
Can anyone explain how adding CO2 causes a supposed emission from higher altitude and therefore a higher surface temperature? The suggesiton isnt that the earths atmosphere became thicker, with a vertical lapse rate movement, the suggection is that if an emitted photon is now picked up and re-emitted from 100 meters further up this photon has lost energy, and that energy has somehow got back to the surface.
Can anyone explain this to me?
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ConcernedCitizen at 21:32 PM on 28 April 2016Greenhouse effect has been falsified
"the moon’s surface reaches 130 degrees C in direct sunlight at the equator"
So GH gasses and the GH effect reduce maximum temperature too.
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bozzza at 18:10 PM on 28 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
@ Red Baron,
It's not up to scientists to form a coalition! Where is the method in that?
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Digby Scorgie at 11:08 AM on 28 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
#11 RedBaron
I was under the impression that people have been doing their damndest to communicate "acceptable mitigation strategies" to conservatives, but the conservatives are simply having none of it. In the face of such intransigence it's natural to become cynical. When the climate chickens come home to roost, one could derive satisfaction from watching the conservatives burn in the hell of their own devising. The only problem is that the rest of us will burn too. Damn! I knew there was a catch somewhere!
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Riduna at 05:55 AM on 28 April 2016After COP21: 7 Key Tasks to Implement the Paris Agreement
Digby Scorgie
(1) Fossil fuel becomes increasingly expensive relative to renewables
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RedBaron at 23:27 PM on 27 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
@ william,
Not fun at all. Not only will it cost astonomical amounts of damages, untold human suffering, massive ecosystem destruction, etc...; it fundamentally highlights the failure of scientists to form an effective coalition with conservatives to propose mitigation strategies acceptable to them.
Too often I hear heavy criticism and disdane for the denialists. I do it myself, but I also offer alternatives acceptable to conservative thinking.
But ultimately until you come up with an acceptable mitigation strategy that isn't anathema to everything conservatives hold dear, AND communicate that, then denialism will continue. It has to, because in conservatives eyes the only alternatives offered are suffer, or suffer. If that's all the choices they see, then many will prefer the only way out which is deny this unwritten future will happen. It's your failure to communicate. Always remember that.
Comments like how "beautiful the irony" would be to watch the suffering just so you could gleefully proclaim "I told you so" while you waggle your tongue is not helping.
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william5331 at 05:23 AM on 27 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
I seem to remember reading somewhere that a lot of Texas is pretty close to sea level. What beautiful just irony. Should be fun to watch them continue in this vein as the water lapps around their ankles.
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Rob Painting at 19:28 PM on 26 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
See the 2nd peer-reviewed paper linked to above - the stronger trade winds during La Nina push more warm tropical water westward between the Indonesian archipelago & Australia (the Indonesian Throughflow or ITF).
The 2010-2011 La Nina coincided with an anomalously strong southward Leeuwin Current (normally weak over summer) and weak southerly winds which flow in opposition to the Leeuwin Current.
We appear to be in the positive phase of the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation (IPO) which should reduce the volume of warm water transported through the ITF, but on the other hand the oceans are growing warmer. A La Nina forecast to develop later this year could prove interesting come next summer.
Anyway, to give you a quick example, here's a composite of sea surface temperatures for La Nina summers excluding the exceptional La Nina of 2011:
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bozzza at 17:55 PM on 26 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
Why is, "..the time of greatest risk for higher latitude West Australian coral is during La Nina...", mayI ask?
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Rob Painting at 05:42 AM on 26 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
Western Australian coral were devastated by the marine heatwave of 2010-2011. See: Unprecedented Mass Bleaching and Loss of Coral across 12° of Latitude in Western Australia in 2010–11. A lot of other local marine life went belly up too including abalone, scallops, crayfish and fish.
However the time of greatest risk for higher latitude West Australian coral is during La Nina, although the 2010-2011 La Nina was exceptional and exacerbated by anomalous conditions. See: La Niña forces unprecedented Leeuwin Current warming in 2011. -
Glenn Tamblyn at 08:06 AM on 25 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
Thanks MA Rodger, I didn't have access to the full article.
Either way it doesn't support what the Australian reported. -
One Planet Only Forever at 00:48 AM on 25 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
chriskoz@8,
I agree that exposing the absurdity of Cruz presented by Tom would be damaging in the mind of a person who values integrity and honesty and the advancement of humanity to a lasting better future for all. However, the portion of the population that the likes of Cruz succeed in appealing to clearly value impressions. And they are likely to like impressions that they think legitimately support the views they prefer to believe. That would lead them to accept anything that discredits or dismisses information that contradicts what they prefer to believe (probably claiming it is a deliberate deception created by someone trying to take wealth and opportunity away from them).
I consider it very dangerous to presume that the likes of Cruz , Trump or G.W. Bush are unintelligent or gullible. In fact thta type of claim would be able to be used to justify dismissing a criticism of Cruz of Trump because there would be plenty of evidence that they are not unintelligent or uninformed. It is almost beyond a doubt that they are highly intelligent and well informed and fully understand the ability to drum up undeserved popular support for attitudes and actions that are impediments to the advancement of global humanity to a lasting better future for all by creating and disseminating deliberate misrepresentations of things what they are aware of.
The potential popularity of the desire to personally benefit in ways that can clearly be understood to only temporarily boost the perceptions of prosperity of a portion of humanity (to the detriment of others, particularly to the detriment of future generations), leads many intelligent people to misuse their talents for personal gain (like trying to present an economic financial case justifying the imposition of costs on future generations by declaring that it is OK to create problems for others if you think you would lose opportunity for personal benefit if you did not continue to get away with creating problems others would have to deal with).
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MA Rodger at 22:43 PM on 24 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
Glenn Tamblyn @15.
I think the closing comments of the full article are a better interpretation of what the authors are saying:-
"Seawater carbon chemistry is a key determinant of coral calcification, and the potential for future anthropogenic-influenced declines in carbonate saturation state, and hence coral calcification, is cause for serious concern (2,4,7). However, we conclude that the rate of change in the thermal environment of coral reefs is currently the primary driver of change in coral calcification rates. Warming SSTs are resulting in (i) increased calcification rates reported here in the southeast Indian Ocean, where marginal reefs have taken advantage of warmer conditions, and (ii) recent declines reported elsewhere for more typical reef environments where thermal optima for calcification have been exceeded or resulted in setbacks in growth as a result of thermally induced bleaching. Whether the former is sustainable as oceans continue to warm is another question."
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chriskoz at 18:54 PM on 24 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
One Planet@7,Tom's take on Ted Cruz is more damaging to Cruz' reputation than yours is. It is just beyond believe that a guy who so utterly ashamed himself can still be a presidential hopeful. Advertise this nonsense he's just said far and wide to the american public and his chances in this election should drop to zero.
Sadly, voters rarely consider candidate's intelligence and integrity as main criteria. Popularity, fuelled by lobbying and advertising by a party, is the main criterion. Less intelligent guy is even better, because he would more likely be a puppet president, complacent to the party caucus. That's why we have candidates such as Cruz & Trump on top of Rep endorsement.
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Glenn Tamblyn at 09:23 AM on 24 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
From the abstract for the paper.
"We show there is no widespread pattern of consistent decline in calcification rates of massive Porites during the 20th century on reefs spanning an 11° latitudinal range in the southeast Indian Ocean off Western Australia. Increasing calcification rates on the high-latitude reefs contrast with the downward trajectory reported for corals on Australia's Great Barrier Reef and provide additional evidence that recent changes in coral calcification are responses to temperature rather than ocean acidification."
Huh! This is a classic Black is White piece from the Australian. There is a downward trajectory to calcification in the GBR, in warmer water, in contast to the cooler waters at higher latitude in the southern Indian Ocean. -
One Planet Only Forever at 02:26 AM on 24 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
Tom Curtis @ 6,
I do not extend the likes of Ted Cruz or George W. Bush any courtesy of doubt about their intelligence, awareness or understanding.
They are highly educated individuals with full access to substantial amounts of information. I am almost certain that they deliberately do what they do with full awareness and understanding of the unacceptability of what they hope to get away with.
The fact that they can rally popular support for understandably unacceptable attitudes and actions (like already fortunate people continuing to benefit from the burning of fossil fuels), is a serious problem, that creates serious problems that can be made bigger for as long as the likes of them can get away with.
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Tom Curtis at 00:46 AM on 24 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
RickG @3, I think the whole section from 7:10 onwards, where Ted Cruz argues NASA shouldn't fund weather satellites because the core function of the National Aeronautical and Space Administration is to study space (and apparently space only). Had NASA been only the NSA, perhaps he would have a point. But as it happens, the NASA act states:
"(c) The aeronautical and space activities of the United States shall
be conducted so as to contribute materially to one or more of the
following objectives:
(1) The expansion of human knowledge of phenomena in the
atmosphere and space"(My emphasis).
As it happens, climate is a "phenomena in the atmosphere".
Cruz's argument, therefore, depends on a fundamental misrepresentation of the purpose of NASA, based on an abysmal ignorance of (or pretended ignorance of) NASA's enabling legislation. That Cruz's ignorance of legislation is as abyssmal as his ignorance of science should be no surprise. It raises the question as to whether he has basic knowledge in any field relevant to his role as a legislator.
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John Hartz at 00:44 AM on 24 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
Recommended supplemental raeading:
Interview: UN members fear U.S. 'sabotage' of Obama's climate commitments by Louis Charbonneau, Reuters, Apr 20, 2016
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donl70 at 00:01 AM on 24 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
Deniers! you've got to love them!..but then I deny gods exist..their problem is that they don't and follow that line of thinking against scientists..I know Global warming is here and I'm just an old retired college Fine Arts teacher..,thing is I used to think you needed at least a 100point IQ to be a Senator..guess I was wrong...in about 20 years more or less Texas will be a smaller state,wonder what they'll say caused that?!..the saying"you just can't fix stupid' applies here very much....btw PS;I have chronic asthma,take all kinds of meds even was on oxy.for awhile there..It's getting worse!,,and what's even worse..there are more people mostly adults becomming asthmatic..due to what?oh hell I don't know!...The Weather channel..hahahaha!,he doesn't need NOAA...
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MA Rodger at 22:04 PM on 23 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
denis.boarder @13.
Cooper et al (2012) Growth of Western Australian Corals in the Anthropocene.
If you have an author's name (here Janice Lough) and they are an academic, finding a list of their publications is a good step to getting on to their papers.
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RickG at 21:50 PM on 23 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
The 7:23 mark in the video is just amazing; a congressman telling the NOAA Administrator that he doesn't need their weather satellites, he has the Weather Channel.
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denis.boarder at 17:45 PM on 23 April 2016Corals are resilient to bleaching
I have trawled for this report everwhere university portals, Google and the AIMS website and its published papers index but without success. Has anyone any idea where this report in 'The Australian' by Amos Aikman originates?
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chriskoz at 11:48 AM on 23 April 2016The climate change generation gap
denisaf@3
This threat is about the gaps about climate science knowledge, so your comment is entirely off topic. In case it stands though, I have to respond that your "demise of civilization" is not inevitable. Hardship for future generations, yes. But even with 2+K of GW, there still be plenty of niches left on the planet where millions of homo sapiens would thrive. That optimistic (as opposed to yours) outcome depends on narrowing the subject "generation gap" is CS knowledge. Also, on emergence of proper intergenerational ethics. As I pointed many times in my comments in SkS, AGW problem can be seen not as environmental problem but as social and ethical problem spanning multiple generations.
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denisaf at 11:33 AM on 23 April 2016The climate change generation gap
Those pesky human beings will continue to argue as they consume natures's bounty and trash the environment but Mother Earth will just continue, as she has done for aeons, to slowly repond to what is happening. The curent climate disruption and ocean acidification and warming that these pests have caused are just blips that will be dealt with after the inevitable demise of civilization.
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Digby Scorgie at 11:31 AM on 23 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
One recoils in horror at the monstrous evil of these powerful deniers speaking calumnies in soft emotionless tones.
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chriskoz at 11:23 AM on 23 April 2016The climate change generation gap
All of those "gaps" can be explained by differences in vested interests. One group has different vested interests than the other regarding climate change mitigation. Therefore, the group with higher vested interests in maintaining status quo of FF burning, tries to rationalise their interests and develops higher perceptive bias against the established scientific facts and laws of physics. The control group will still have some bias (individual or subjective perception of reality is always biased one way or the other) but their bias will be smaller in that particular aspect.
For example, older generation, say baby boomer whose current remaining lifespan in US averages some 25-35 years, would have lived in the climate that is still preferable, so they feel happy and don't want to change anything. Wheareas the millenial generation (born ~20y ago) whose current remaining lifespan is some 65-75 years, would have not lived their lifespans before the situation changes radically. So, because the first group does not see GW as a threat to themslves, their cognitive bias (because GW is a threat to civilisation) will be larger than that of the second group.
The vested interest indiced bias exists even among the climate scientists. Those 3% AGW contrarians have been repeately shown to be so biased as to be clearly wrong in some cases. Some individual cases have indicated FF interests have induced the contrarian congnitive biases. For example, the famous case of Wili Soon, who accepted energy industry money without disclosing it. I think I've heard of an attempt to quantify the contrarian FF interest bias but I'm unsure if it was ever published. I would not be surprised if such attempt actually confirms such bias is larger than in a random group of climate scientists.
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uncletimrob at 10:59 AM on 23 April 2016New Video: Surveilling the Scientists
That is a deeply disturbing video!
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Glenn Tamblyn at 09:22 AM on 23 April 2016CO2 is not a pollutant
Actually aed939, that CO2 was defined as a pollutant dates back to Massachusetts vs EPA in the US Supreme Court in April2007 when SCOTUS ruled that the greenhouse gases are 'air pollutants' as defined under the Clean AIr Act.
President Bush issued an executive order in May 2007, authorising the EPA to regulate GHGs for mobile sources. -
jenna at 08:10 AM on 23 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
Let's remember that the AGU took considerable grief the last couple of years, expecially from some of its membership, for a Climate 'friendly' mission statement that many felt lacked the proper imput from their wide ranging members. They may be still smarting from that experience.
But what I see as the almost worse than accepting Exxon's continued support is the way the AGU felt comfortable publicly thumbing their nose at the Climate Science establishment. This is something they wouldn't have done as recently as a year ago, imho. This signifies a troubling change. If Kerry Emanuel and other noted, high profile Climate scientists are considering breaking ties with the AGU, they should do it now and do it very publicly. There needs to be a forceful response to this, not just a few harsh words.
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donl70 at 04:01 AM on 23 April 2016The climate change generation gap
Yup! there are lots of gaps..biggest one at least in this country is brains versus no brains....those who deny can keep on polluting as usual and those who do..will work towards a better tommorrow!....when yer up to yer eyeballs in water..maybe you'll figure it out..this is for the denier..there are and have been deniers throughout our existance..I don't believe in god,others don't believe the holocaust ever happened...wait and see!
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aed939 at 00:56 AM on 23 April 2016CO2 is not a pollutant
Sorry, actually, the "carbon pollution" moniker was introduced by the Obama administration in 2013.
Moderator Response:[RH] Searching Google Trends for the usage of the phrase "carbon pollution" shows that you are incorrect. Try it out.
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aed939 at 00:52 AM on 23 April 2016CO2 is not a pollutant
Traditionally CO2 has not been considered a pollutant because it does not directly cause human harm (from inhaling it, like particulates), nor does it promote harm to human health indirectly by contributing to smog creation (as NOx leads to the creation of ozone, which in turn may trigger athsma), nor does it lead to property or wildlife damage (as SO2 causes acid rain). CO2, like H2O, is an odorless, harmless emission that is beneficial to humans and wildlife. However, since about 2010, the EPA has tried to intentionally conflate CO2 with other pollutants using the new "carbon pollution" moniker. There is a deliberate intent to confuse CO2--the odorless gas--with black carbon soot (particulates). CO2 itself does not cause any direct or indirect human harm or property damage. There is a theoretical link of global warming to more inense adverse weather events, and a theoretical link of increased CO2 to sea level rise, which may necessitate waterfront modification, depending on the magnitude of the sea level rise. However, in practice, CO2 could double or triple in the atmosphere without any temperature change because there is so much H2O in the system that has about the same greenhouse gas effect. So if you want to classify CO2 as a pollutant, then H2O would also fit the definition. Historically, CO2 has not caused warming. Rather, global warming was caused by some other factor (volcanoes, meteors, sun, etc.), and the warming has caused CO2 to rise as tundra melts.
Moderator Response:[TD] Provide evidence for your claim of deliberate intent to confuse CO2 with carbon soot. Else do not make such baseless, conspiratorial claims here.
Your claim of CO2's influence being trivial because of the H2O in the atmosphere is completely, factually wrong, because water vapor is a feedback rather than a forcing. Read the post "Explaining How the Water Vapor Greenhouse Effect Works." Read the Basic tabbed pane there, and then the Intermediate tabbed pane. If you want to comment on that topic, do so there rather than here; comments on that topic here will be deleted for being off topic.
Your claim that historically CO2 has not caused warming also is completely, factually incorrect. Read the post "CO2 Is Not the Only Driver of Climate"--the Basic tabbed pane and then the Intermediate one. If you want to comment on that topic, do so there, not here. Then watch climatologist Richard Alley's talk "The Biggest Control Knob: Carbon Dioxide in Earth's Climate History."
[RH] Extended warning snip. It would be worthy to note that the EPA initially rejected the idea of making a ruling on CO2. It was a court case "Massachusetts v. EPA" that went to the Supreme Court where the court ruled that the EPA was required to make a ruling on greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act (Wiki). The commenter here clearly lacks sufficient understanding of the issue s/he's opining on and would be well advised to fully inform her/himself before continuing commentary.
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bozzza at 08:43 AM on 22 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
@11,
People who work in oil and gas could easily surmise that it's a regulated markets problem and that they aren't responsible which I would suay is correct!
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scaddenp at 07:06 AM on 22 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
Glenn, aside from magnetics, geophysics has much smaller role in mineral industry than in petroleum. Seismic is the paramount tool in petroleum exploration (and coal) but it is a far more useful in sedimentary rock than in the "hard rock" terrains of most other minerals. After seismic, would come well log petrophysics which is also used in coal, but again, this has much more limited applications in hard rock minerals.
John, that would be interesting and I note a different slant taken on climate by AAPG compared to AGU.
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Elmwood at 07:01 AM on 22 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
i work in the oil and gas exploration industry and can tell you people in my line of work, even if they admit the climate is warming because of fossil fuel extraction, don't really care. they care about where they are getting money or a job much more.
i think we need to be honest in and recognize the huge obstacle of apathy in the western world concerning AGW.
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RedBaron at 07:00 AM on 22 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
I have a completely different take on this issue completely. As long as there are no strings attached to present bogus denier quackery, not only should AGU accept ExxonMobil money, they should actually ask for double or quadruple from from them. A lot of the earth sciences revolve around cleaning up messes the fossil fuel industry, so why shouldn't that be funded by the industry causing the mess?
This whole controversy seems to be a little like cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. Spite is an ugly emotion. It causes people to act irrationally.
Now if you could actually make a case for the money being used to fund AGW denialism, or influence AGU to act irresponcibly, then a reasonable case could be made to refuse this money from ExxonMobile. I haven't seen such a case being made though.
So IMHO take the money and use it wisely.
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Rob Honeycutt at 02:06 AM on 22 April 2016Climate Bet for Charity, 2016 Update
Thanks, Kevin. It's certainly interesting to look at the question different ways. If the decade plays out to the expected 0.15°C over the previous one, that will end up looking very different than what I think he's anticipating. I'm going to be curious how KT's responds as this moves forward.
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John Hartz at 00:09 AM on 22 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
GlennTamblyn:
In the same vein, how many members of the AGU Board of Directors are (or have been) employed by the extraction industry?
The bottom-line is that the AGU is a "Big Tent" organization. I cannot help but wonder what a survey of its entire membership about the scientific consensus re manmade climate change would reveal?
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Kevin C at 18:42 PM on 21 April 2016Climate Bet for Charity, 2016 Update
I think I've worked out how to get something out of KT's plot.
The one advantage it has is that because the denominator is constant, the noise level is also constant across the plot.
Against this, it incorporates a meaningless trend term which is solely dependent on the choice of baseline.
Suppose you were to rebaseline the UAH/RSS mean series by subtracting the mean of the first decade from the series. Then the first decade becomes a CUSUM plot, with the start and end points equal by definition. Progress on the second decade can be seen by whether the line is currently above or below zero.
CUSUM plots are not very intuitive, so I'm not saying it's a good representation. But it does have some mathematical meaning.
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Glenn Tamblyn at 18:23 PM on 21 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
Interesting question scaddenp, what do you think the split would be between geo-types in FF based industries vs other mining/extraction - iron ore, gold, titanium dioxide and everything else?
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scaddenp at 10:58 AM on 21 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
I would expect that FF industry is the largest employer worldwide of geophysists. It certainly makes sense for Exxon to be supporting AGU given the fundamental importance of geophysics to oil exploration. Nothing at all sinister about that.
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John Hartz at 10:09 AM on 21 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
Does anyone happen to know how many members of the AGU are employed by the fossil fuel industry? I suspect that it's a goodly share.
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r.pauli at 06:18 AM on 21 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
First off, I pass along the comment that AGU was foolish to accept $35 k for a total sell out... it is worth 10 or 20 times that. And so that price is so low, that they should just sweep it away.
Next we should all suspect that all media is corrupted. Recently Scienitific American discovered Clean Coal (although calling it something else.) http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-oil-companies-save-the-world-from-global-warming/ - SciAm is an advertiser-supported arm of the same publishing house that owns the Journal Nature. (how do they make their money?) Presumably the Holtzbrinck Publishing Group knows what they are doing.
As does Exxon's and sponsorhip of AGU - it must pay off immesurably.
Climate scientists may want to bolt from AGU - the big issue is communicating climate science to the world,,, and AGU seems to make that more difficult - rather, the could do better.
Just model the future: in 2 or 5 years will the AGU be ready to make clear statements about mitigation? Or will we be stuck with Exxon adaptation planning?
Again, looking 5 years ahead, shouldn't there be a scientifica organization that assembles new research and then delivers unified statements without regard for the business needs of an oil company?
At the very least, AGU should hide the sponsors names to prevent bias. And the very best thing would be a new organization of scientists...say something non-profit, disconnected from economic bias.
This seem so obvioius, why would AGU blunder so?
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donl70 at 05:02 AM on 21 April 2016CO2 increase is natural, not human-caused
Sorry John..being a skeptic is fine but in this case you're incorrect..I'm not saying only mankind is contributing but I'm saying what they manufacture,since the Industrial revolution has contributed immensly..how could it not?? btw I taught several volunteer FYI college classes at night several years back to mostly adults who had no idea what it was all about....my saying to those who must deny GCC..is "well I guess we'll just have to wait and see"..yep it's moving along a good deal faster than old mother nature had in mind..have a swell day..glad I found and joined this site..ciao
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swampfoxh at 01:46 AM on 21 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
I suppose i could say, "It's all about the money, but maybe I should say, "It's only about the money". I don't think it takes an exhaustive investigation by a sleuth like Sherlock Holmes to find out whether a donor is part of the problem or part of the solution. AGU should just place itself above and beyond reproach, then we wouldn't have to split hairs over whether we are upholding the (apparently former) high ethical standards (of yesteryear?) On the other hand, people (corporations) don't give you money unless they have something to gain. Fossil fuel companies have everything to lose by having to leave their assets "in the ground", so subversion and chicanery by these groups is the only way they can assure themselves of selling us every last drop of the 1.750 trillion barrels of oil (or gas or coal) left in the ground. The solution for AGU is to either ban all "gifts" from industries who profit from the production of fossil fuels, or for the memebrship to jump ship and start a new organization (today).
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chriskoz at 21:11 PM on 20 April 2016World’s largest Earth science organization to continue accepting ExxonMobil sponsorship despite calls from 250+ geoscientists
It would be nice to specify all major AGU sponsors along ExxonMobil, along with their contributions (if such data exists). Presumably, we know about ExxonMobil only with its contribution be $35K.
That list would put Kerry's lament about "mockery of [...] a mere $35K" into a good perspective. Without such perspective I cannot know if the lament is reasonable.
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chriskoz at 20:57 PM on 20 April 2016Study: humans have caused all the global warming since 1950
Their statistical model assumes that the temperature influence from several individual forcings will add up to the total temperature influence from all the forcings.
I'm not sure if this is a valid assumption. The fact is, that different forcings are inhomogenous, for example land use and aerosols use are localised to NH where most people live. Further, different forcings have differnt efficacies, for example we know that CH4 has efficacy greater than 1, because of its stratospheric water vapour release.
The matter is discussed in detail by Anders in his blog. Therein, Anders cites (Kummer & Dessler 2014) which was written in response to the "climate sensitivity is low" claims by papers such as (Otto 2013) and others. Kummer & Dessler argued that assuming uniform (efficacy == 1) of all types of forcings, resulted in underestimated TCR (transient climate response) estimates by (Otto 2013) and others.
Same argument should apply here. You cannot just add up all forcings and assume the temperature change observed will reflect that sum. I think such assumption, that the authores have clearly made according to the quote above, is flawed.
I don't know how this flaw influenced the principal outcome of this paper (anthropogenic attribution of forcings). Perhaps not that much, perhaps even downgraded the attribution, because e.g. aerosols, with E > 1, do mask the CO2 influence more than they and (Otto 2013) had thought, but I don't feel confident qualifying it. I hope someone can do that, and confirm or refute my claim above.
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