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Dikran Marsupial at 22:50 PM on 4 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Grizwald57 wrote "This is why the least populous countries have historically been those closer to the equator."
This isn't actually true
Europe is densely populated, but it seems the exception rather than the rule and on average tropical countries appear to be more populous than those in temperate regions (with the exception of Europe). Desert regions are a result of Hadley cells IIRC, and it is hardly surprising that deserts have a low population density, but these regions are not actually on the equator.
It isn't clear to me what you are trying to say in your post. Perhaps it would help if you were to clearly state what your position actually is on the question of how the poor are likely to be impacted by climate change.
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Grizwald57 at 15:39 PM on 4 November 2014CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Historically, population booms have occurred based on climate and coinciding with that have been technological increases. This is why the least populous countries have historically been those closer to the equator. Countries in sub-saharan Africa, countries in huge swaths of desert such as Saudi Arabia, and countries in dense jungles have never had very high populations and consequently saw very little development. This leads to my argument. You cannot take very sparsely populated countries such as those in sub-saharan and central africa, or mountain and jungle covered countries such as those found in central America as examples of a general decrease in standards of living. You cannot use these sparsely populated countries as the basis for your argument that the poor will be less well off. It is only specific to these areas. You are using the most underrepresented countries as your data. China for example has far more poverty stricken people compared to these African countries when you take into account total population and percentage of the poor. 249.984 million people in china lived on less than $2 a day in 2011. Rwanada had 52.6 million people living on less than $2 a day in 2011. China had almost 5 times as many people in poverty as Rwanda a country more affected by Global Warming.
Another thing this does not take into account is the movement of peoples. It assumes populations will stay in an environment becoming desertified when this is just not true. Therefore the entire argument is actually fallacious because it is based on a false assumption.
And finally your assumption at the end that these poor countries will not develop is actually contradictory since the data your using is at the same time assuming the populations of these countries will increase, which they have presently been doing, and because of this population increase also consume more carbon. It also fails to take into account market (technological) adapatations. States in the southern U.S. and other developing cities have seen booms in populations since the development of technologies such as centralized air conditioning.
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skyman at 08:55 AM on 4 November 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
Regarding Judith Curry's comments, NASA researchers recently published a study which appears to support Dr. Curry's contentions:
A separate study in August (2014) in the journal Science said the apparent slowdown in the Earth's surface warming in the last 15 years could be due to that heat being trapped in the deep Atlantic and Southern Ocean.
But the NASA researchers said their approach, described in the journal Nature Climate Change, is the first to test the idea using satellite observations, as well as direct temperature measurements of the upper ocean.
"The deep parts of the ocean are harder to measure," said researcher William Llovel of NASA JPL.
"The combination of satellite and direct temperature data gives us a glimpse of how much sea level rise is due to deep warming. The answer is — not much."NASA Study Finds Earth’s Ocean Abyss Has Not Warmed
http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/october/nasa-study-finds-earth-s-ocean-abyss-has-not-warmed/
Moderator Response:[TD] There is a post here on SkS about that paper.
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Kevinb3 at 04:28 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
I get it KR. Thanks
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Dikran Marsupial at 03:49 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3 If a climate website wanted to publish an article on the TCP paper, that shows the 97% concensus on climate change, would they be required to give links to all 12,000 papers that were considered, or would it be O.K. just to give a link to the paper itself?
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Dikran Marsupial at 02:56 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3, you are being unreasonable. The whole point of people conducting surveys is to give a summary of what has been published on some topic. If you don't accept the survey then the onus is on you to conduct a survey of your own and draw your own conclusions. The authors of the survey have identified the papers for you, requesting they give links rather than the normal form of citations used in journal papers is basically asking to be spoon-fed.
I am beginning to suspect that you don't actually have any objection to the concusion of the survey and are just using the "method of unreasonable expectations" to avoid accepting it.
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What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3 - The references (papers on cooling, warming, or neutral) are clearly listed in Peterson et al, Table 1. A quick search on Google Scholar (which is extremely useful for this) shows that many are articles in Science or Nature, which require subscription or purchase.
Several notes here:
- The SkS page is reporting on the Peterson et al paper, the results; demanding that SkS obtain and publicise all source materials for every paper discussed is unreasonable.
- Copyright and ownership would prevent free general access to those papers not made available by the publishers or authors.
- Looking up references is really part of doing science.
- The Peterson et al paper is itself primary literature, your description of this as "what the papers say from third parties" is in error.
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John Hartz at 01:40 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
The remainder of John Cook's notes to the OP (visible only to SkS authors):
http://www.ametsoc.org/Chapters/asheville/mythAshevilleJanuary2008.ppt
http://ams.confex.com/ams/pdfpapers/131047.pdf
William Connelly blogs on his paper: (good comments)
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John Hartz at 01:31 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
From John Cook's notes to the OP (visible only to SkS authors):
7 Cooling Papers:
Climate Modification by Atmospheric Aerosols (McCormick and John H. Ludwig 1967) - Theoretical considerations and empirical evidence indicate that atmospheric turbidity, a function of aerosol loading, is an important factor in the heat balance of the earth-atmosphere system. Turbidity increase over the past few decades may be primarily responsible for the decrease in worldwide air temperatures since the 1940's.
Barrett 1971 (???)
Rasool & Schneider 1971
Atmospheric Turbidity and Surface Temperature on the Polar Ice Sheets (Hamilton & Seliga 1972) - DATA relevant to the causation of climatic change, particularly changes in mean annual temperature at the surface over intervals of from 10 to 105 yr, have been accumulating gradually in various laboratories engaged in studying the two long ice cores from Camp Century, Greenland, and "New" Byrd Station, Antarctica. This note consolidates these and other data and interprets them in the framework of existing theory. It appears that millenial and longer variations in cloud-level temperature on the polar ice sheets have been caused by changing atmospheric turbidity over the past 10 5 yr.
Aerosols and climate (Chýlek, J Coakley - Science, 1974)
A nonequilibrium model of hemispheric mean surface temperature. (Bryson & Dittberner 1976)
The influence of pollution on the shortwave albedo of clouds. (Twomey 1977)
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Kevinb3 at 01:27 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
@ Tom
BTW, thanks, looking below the long list of papers I did find the table, but I still reference my above point.
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Kevinb3 at 01:23 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Dikran, What more do you want?
Either links, which aren't always readily available, or pdfs of said papers. Not explanations or interpretations as to what the papers say from third parties. Yes, I could go on a research binge and gather up said articles, but it goes back to my original point really. The site is expounding on what it states is truth, but IMO the source material should be offered up if it's going button up. Since the homework is supposedly done, then it should be easy.
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One Planet Only Forever at 00:55 AM on 4 November 2014Republican politicians aren't climate scientists or responsible leaders
I wonder what the likes of Senator Mitch McConnell would say if asked:
"Who is responsible for caring about being fair with future humans who have no current day vote, marketing power, investment influence, or ability to obtain legal recourse against those who caused problems for them."
Many evaluations of acceptability of the damaging consequences of the ultimately unsustainable burning up of the opportunity to benefit from nonrenewable buried hydrocarbons, including the UG Government's, make the absurd assessment that as long as their calculation of the benefit obtained by a current generation exceeds the costs incurred by a future generation 'all is well in their world'. They even discount future costs as if they were evaluating alternative 'business investment choices'.
The lack of concern for the future that is being developed is the real problem.
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Tom Curtis at 00:50 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3, look at table 1 in Peterson, Connolley and Fleck (linked in the OP). The paper discusses the majority of the cooling papers more extensively in the text.
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Dikran Marsupial at 00:48 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
Kevinb3 if you look at the appendix of the paper it gives a list of the papers predicting cooling and the papers predicting warming. What more do you want, that is the form in which references are usually made in scientific papers, and if you disagree with the findings then the onus is on you to look up the papers and analyse them for yourself. There is no other way of establishing the "veracity" of the survey than reading the papers for yourself, and the authors make that as easy for you to do as you caould reasonably expect.
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Kevinb3 at 00:36 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
@ Stephen
I looked at that biblio, it had over 100 papers, I don't see specific links to the 7 cooling papers or the 42 warming papers broken out. Like I said, the author has combed through that biblio and pulled out certain specific references. They need to be more specific and not rely on the readers patience to prove their veracity or not. I'd like to read the specific papers this author is using as their primary evidence.
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Kevinb3 at 00:26 AM on 4 November 2014What 1970s science said about global cooling
@ ajki
I think it's more of a question of overestimating the site.
It "might" be possible for the layperson to find the links by data mining the site that align to the "7 total" papers on cooling, or "42 total" that deal with warming. However if the research is already done by the author of this article then there should be no need for someone looking for sunstantiating this article to go on a wild goose chase. The articles the author is referencing almost surely don't have global cooling or warming in the headline which would mean the reader would have to dig deep in each paper to find the reference if it's not clearly outlined in the abstract. Most peer reviewed papers are not written for the consumption of the layperson, they're highly technical.
It's the authors responsibility to back up their claims by posting source. I have many times looked at source materials that were used a basis for extrapolating opinion on other topics and found that I don't agree with the conclusions the author has arrived at based on the data, but, I often do as well. It's relative. However, with the topic of AGW there's impetus for direcet proof over assertion because it's a highly charged topic politically.
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MA Rodger at 22:29 PM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
kiwiradical @352.
You say "Either his calculations, using accepted orbital mechanics and physics are correct or not." You ignore the possibility that the subject of the calculations of duncansteel are already being accounted for. And also that the effect may or may not be significant.
duncansteel is actually presenting two effects although he doesn't make this at all clear.
In his published paper he calls one CIT. This is undisputedly already taken onboard by climatology (although to read his paper you wouldn't think so). And note that the effect of this orbital change is small in comparison with solar variation which is itself small in comparison with AGW. So in the grand scheme of things it is insignificant.
A second orbital effect duncansteel calls CSI in his 'essay'. This is smaller again than CIT and duncansteel has identified its absence from a set of NOAA insolation tables. (These tables provide insolation data for the last 10 million years in 1,000 year steps.) It is probably no great loss from such tables as the impact of CSI is much smaller than even CIT. There is remaining doubt as to whether or not this CSI is accounted for already or whether it is something so far overlooked. Sadly it is duncansteel who should be the arbitor of his rather poorly described theorising, a role he appears poorly matched to, while the poor description makes it inconvenient for other to take on that role for him. Add in his crazy climatological inferences (as per @354) and all sympathy for duncansteel quickly discipates.
The tenor of duncansteel in this matter can perhaps be judged by where he has come from on this matter. He talls us he was inspired to the research that led to his 'CSI/CIT trumps AGW' hypothesis by Thomson (1995) 'The Seasons, Global Temperature and prescession'. Thomson may be beating the drum for orbital effects to be accounted for better in AGW calculations but Thomson's two concluding paragraphs show clearly that duncansteel is way off on his own concerning the implications of such effects w.r.t AGW.
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Tom Curtis at 21:57 PM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
kiwiradical @352, granting that Steel is entirely correct about all that he claims with regard to changes in insolation only, his theory that it is a significant effect does not follow. The reason it does not follow is that absent data on albedo, the the changes in insolation average out to near zero over the globe and over the year. They are inconsequential. Steel knows that, so he makes some attempt to indicate potential albedo changes that might make the effect significant. I have criticized those attempts @342 above, something you have ignored. Specifically, my criticisms were that:
1) The change in albedo he assumes is not justified by the magnitude of the effect, in that he conjectures that a 4.33 day drift in perihelion relative to the vernal equinox results in a 30 day drift in ice and snow melt;
2) The change in albedo he proposes is contradicted by emperical evidence of recent changes in snow and ice; and
3) He incorrectly includes feedbacks from AGW, from other natural warming, and from the drift of the perihelion in calculating the forcing of the the effect.
Since then I have done some analysis that may help give some idea of the impact of the third point. Specifically, I have used Steel's image of latitudinal absorptivity by day of year to determine the absorptivity by day of year. I have then plotted that against both the introduced drift in seasonal ice and snow cover that he appeals to, and the current insolation by day at that latitude:
The units are standard deviation units. To determine the change in the energy balance, you would actually need to take the integral of the produces of the absorptivity and the insolation, in original units. It is far simpler, however, to compare them in StDev units so that you can compare the position of the peaks.
Many people don't realize that the peak in insolation substantially precedes the peak in ice and snow melt, a fact that can be seen by comparing the blue and orange curves above. The failure of the peaks to coincide significantly reduces the total energy input from the sun in high latitudes.
That being the case, the effect of delaying the ice melt by another thirty days (Steel's model for the albedo 250 years ago) will by itself, without any change in insolation, greatly reduce the energy absorbed at high latitudes. It does so by pushing the albedo and energy peaks further out of phase (blue and yellow curves).
It is evident from this diagram, and without need of calculation that Steel's albedo model will introduce a large "forcing" all by itself, and without any change in insolation. What is worse, however, is that the insolation change is a mere 4.33 day drift in insolation, just 14.4% of the albedo drift. There is slightly more to it than that, but that is the most important effect. That effect can be approximated by blue line four days the right, to represent the insolation change. (Let me emphasize that that is not exact, but it is close enough for estimating the effect.)
The forcing from the insolation change can then be determined as the change in the integrated products of the orange line and the blue line relative to the orange line and the blue line shifted four days to the right. The effects of the feedbacks from all forcings combined (assuming Steel's albedo model is correct) is then the difference between the integrated product of the blue and the orange lines, and the blue and the yellow lines. Transparently, that will be of the order of 15% of the feedbacks. In other words, only about 13% of Steel's calculated "forcing" is an actual forcing effect of the change in insolation.
That is a large error on Steel's behalf (far larger in effect than any he is attributing to the climate scientists). It is somewhat mute because of the clear errors in his albedo model; but the flaw in method revealed would have exagerated the absolute value of the apparent impact of the effect no matter what albedo model was used.
Put simply, he is counting feedbacks as part of the forcing - and not just feedbacks from the forcing under consideration, but feedbacks from any forcing, including some which are far stronger and hence far more dominant than those he has found.
While on the topic of his albedo model, I noticed today a nuance that I had previously ignored. Specifically, he describes the model, saying:
"What I will do is to pick up the absorptivities in a region of interest (latitudes northwards of 30 degrees north, March through June), and replace them with the absorptivities from 30 days earlier (February through May), so as to simulate the effect of the putative delayed melting of the snow and ice back in 1750 compared to the present. "
(My emphasis)
Note that northern latitudes from March to June is when the change in insolation is strongly positive. He has deliberately excluded changes in albedo for periods when the change in insolation has been negative, thereby exagerating the effect still further. (Note that the time restriction on the adjustment means he assumes snow and ice will freeze at the same time 250 years ago as they do currently, not later as I have stated elsewhere. That assumption is still falfified by the fact that they are freezing later. It also means the graph above is not representative of his model in that it applies the adjustement to the entire year. The adjustment applied as he states, however, would introduce discontinuities into the graph, which would consequently be underspecified. Therefore, until he sees fit to fully specifiy the model, it stands as a reasonable approximation.)
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longjohn119 at 21:36 PM on 3 November 2014Republican politicians aren't climate scientists or responsible leaders
I want to add that the reasons for picking lead and asbestos is they are two examples of using a product because simply because it is cheaper and more profitable long after it's dangers are verified.
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longjohn119 at 20:45 PM on 3 November 2014Republican politicians aren't climate scientists or responsible leaders
Yes Donny I know what heat is and you know what the Law of Thermodynamics says about it ....
Wait you likely do not ....
Heat = energy and energy cannot be magically destroyed and made to disappear
There are over 3 dozen satellites from half a dozen nations orbiting the Earth and they are ALL saying the same .... More heat energy is going in than is coming back out and since energy cannot be magically destroyed it can only means one thing, the Earth is gaining heat energy.
Just for the record, anything that throws a system out of it's natural balance is a pollutant. Water is a polluant in a refrigerant system. Water and carbon are also pollutants in IC manufacturing clean room.
The natural balance of CO2 in the Earth's atmosphere is apparantly 270 ppm give or take and was that way for roughly a million years. Any CO2 in excess of that natural balance of 270 ppm is a pollutant to the system and we are currently running 395-400 and steadily rising. That is an over 40% imbalance to the system. I don't know your line of work but in mine that quite a bit more than a significant imbalance.
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Dikran Marsupial at 18:57 PM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
kiwiradical Validity is indeed not measured by peer review and many peer-reviewed papers have indeed been shown to be wrong. However, the proportion of peer-reviewed papers that are wrong is rather less than the proportion of ideas on non-peer reviewed websites where people publish their ideas without submitting them to external scrutiny first. That is why scientists use peer-review.
The key thing here is that Duncan Steel has responded to criticisms of his work with gratuitous insults. That is not the way science ought to procede.
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kiwiradical at 18:44 PM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Oh, for heaven's sake. Validity is not measured by peer review...many, many peer reviewed papers have been shown to be erroneous as knowledge has progressed. Duncan Steel has calculated a change in spring insolation over time. Either his calculations, using accepted orbital mechanics and physics are correct or not. No-one has yet shown they are incorrect. What the effect of that change in insolation is may well be arguable, but it's the change that's significant, and unless you can show the calculations (of the change in insolation) are incorrect you have little to add to the discussion of his 'essay'
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Ashton at 18:13 PM on 3 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
If the current furore in Australia over government measures to rein in public spending is any guide, the voters in the richer countries are unlikely to support measures that will hurt them economically. A recent poll in Australia has shown that although the number of Australians seriously concerned about Climate Change has increased to 45% this is still less than half of the population (http://tinyurl.com/lgnq89b). Polls in the US (http://tinyurl.com/m7jjj24 ; http://tinyurl.com/ohl35e8) and the UK (http://tinyurl.com/ohl35e8 :http://tinyurl.com/bo67q67) give similar results. Until self interest can be placed second, the IPCC will fight a losing battle.
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Dikran Marsupial at 18:11 PM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Karly wrote "An interesting example of how science is not done."
well quite, science is done by publishing papers in peer reviewed scientific journals and it is not done by gratuitously insulting those who disagree with you ("If I had but the time and you had but the brain—").
FWIW I have a first class degree and a PhD, and I have published a fair few journal papers, including a couple on climate. However that is irrelevant as in science it is the validity of the argument that matters, not its source. Perhaps you should pay a bit more attention to the scientific argument rather than engaging in inaccurate ad-hominems.
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denisaf at 15:37 PM on 3 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
Despite all the discussion and the political impact on the IPCC findings, irreversible, rapid climate change and ocean acidification is under way. The future impact of these deleterious processes can be slightly ameliorated by reducing fossil fuel usage as fast as it is practical (for example, by closing coal-fired power stations) if the political decisions are made by the countries concerned. Governments should also stress the need to adopt adaption measures as IPCC points out. New York, London and the Netherlands are leading the way down that rational path.
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Midwest_Man at 14:21 PM on 3 November 2014Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
Rob, In my neck of the woods - upper USA midwest - the issue is more about higher low temps and the consequent higher humidity levels (I gather). I was speaking with a climate scientist just last week at a an informal meeting and he has been evaluating extreme (2.0+") spring rainfall events. Six of the last seven years (May-June period) have been outside the 95% probabillity ellipse of a dataset that is approx 104 years old. We all know the likelihood of that randomly occurring. These more frequent, and larger spates play out in many negative ways, not the least of which is translocation of soil down the MS River. There are some serious implications here for ag management (e.g. nutrient application, riparian management) if this trend continues. I believe he said the temps coming from Canada have been 6 F warmer, as opposed to the 0.5 F warmer from tropical influences. I can't remember the time frame he was mentioning. This isn't my area of research, but it clearly is unsettling to this old ecologist.
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One Planet Only Forever at 09:57 AM on 3 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
It is important to clarify what is required by clarifying the following quote:
"The IPCC can put the facts on the table, Watson says, but the critical issues governments really have to work out are how to fairly distribute emissions rights and how to fairly share the costs. "So it's highly political," he says. "Very simply, are governments willing to act?""
The history of political action clearly indicates that "fairly ditributing" has seldom been an objective of the wealthiest and most powerful. So the real question is:
"Will all of the wealthiest and most powerful change their attitude and fairly distribute the benefits from scarce ultimately unsustainable opportunities, or are they going to continue to fight to prolong their ability to get the most possible benefit any damaging way they can get away with?"
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metapontum at 03:49 AM on 3 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
Joel
Drafts for these CBAT Mk II headings now at links shown here for: -
Explantion - http://www.gci.org.uk/CBAT_MkII_Explanation.html
Appreciation - http://www.gci.org.uk/CBAT_MkII_Appreciation.htmlModerator Response:[JH] Links activated.
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Rob Honeycutt at 02:36 AM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
karly... "I am inclined to agree with Dr Steel’s conclusions..."
I'm curious why you would think it is so outrageous to question his work or suggest that he publish it in a reputable science journal?
"Skeptics" seem to have no problems with people questioning research that is published in respected journals. Why should you or or duncansteel feel so put upon by those here question material that is published in an unreviewed essay published on a website?
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PhilippeChantreau at 00:40 AM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
At firsdt glance, this wholetheory does not appear come close to approach the quantitative sensible test. It's like someone trying to demonstrate by using lots of numbers that they got skin cancer from taking too many selfies with the flash on.
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Tom Curtis at 00:33 AM on 3 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
MA Rodger @346:
1) The ratio's are not the same, but (a) the difference is sufficiently small that it could be due to rounding era, and (b) there should be some slight change in annual insolation between the two periods in any event (although I suspect it is too small to show up with either rounding).
2) I don't think there is any difference between the theories (other than the name). The only substantive difference is that, so far as I can tell, the Journal of Cosmology paper assumes a spherical Earth for simplicity, whereas the blog post includes effects due to the actual shape of the Earth. (I have, of course, not repeated the calculations so cannot be certain of this.)
3) The differences between Figure 1 (calculated from NH Spring equinox) and 4 (calculated from NH Autumnal equinox) appear to balance out to zero over the year, and are mostly confined to polar latitudes. They are probably a consequence of the fact that the time from spring to autumnal equinox is approximately eight days less than the time from autumnal to spring equinoxes.
4) Most importantly, Fig 6b is just Fig 6a reproduced with an inaccurate notional day of year scale for the x-axis. The true comparison should be between Fig 6b (which the climate scientists are purported to use) and 6d (Steel's own calculation), or between 6c (The correct calculation for a scaling by day of year from Berger) and 6d.
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metapontum at 00:33 AM on 3 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
Joel - you are quite right to ask that question. That is one of the key things that are needed to help CBAT-users understand better what's there.
If you go to the home page http://www.gci.org.uk/ and then touch the panel "CBAT principles, purpose & target audience" I have started setting out answers to those sorts of questions.
The whole CBAT MkII effort should be finished before Christmas.
The CBAT MkI effort foundered, but it had a resource-&-information-page here that might answer some of the questions: - http://www.gci.org.uk/All_Info.htmlModerator Response:[JH] Links activated.
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michael sweet at 23:53 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Karley,
As a new perhaps you should read more and insult other commenters less. Several of the posters responding to DS have pHd's and long lists of papers published on the topic of climate change. DS has less experience than they do. If we are to bow to authority, DS does not have the strong hand. The fact that you are ignorant of others contributions does not mean that those contributions do not exist. The rest of us are up to date.
I have a Masters Degree in Organic Chemistry and have published around 10 peer reviewed papers. I doubt that anyone here cares about that since many of the other posters have pHd's. At this site we care about the qualtiy of the arguments preseted and the data that support them.
I note that DS has not produced a single data point about snow and ice extent and/or albeido. This is the critical point of his hypothesis and only Tom has presented data. That data directly contradicts DS proposal.
As I noted above, DS proposal is that precession causes a warmer spring and day with the rest of warming following. This is in direct contradiction to what is observed: a warmer winter and night with the other seasons and daytime following.
Can you provide any data or an argument to suggest why we should further entertain DS proposal when it is in contradiction to the observed data?
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Joel_Huberman at 23:48 PM on 2 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
metapontum@1:
Thanks, this tool looks interesting, but I don't understand it. Are explanations or instructions available anywhere?
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Forrest Erickson at 23:44 PM on 2 November 2014Guest post: scrutinising the 31,000 scientists in the OISM Petition Project
Regarding, the "The OISM’s qualifications...."
Pleaes replace "stay-at-home-mom’s with engineering degrees" with "stay-at-home-mom’s and dad's with engineering degrees" -
MA Rodger at 22:41 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Tom Curtis @338.
Oh dear. You shouldn't have cut & pasted that quote from duncansteel's 'essay'. You forced me to go and finish reading duncansteel's ravings (something I was resolved not to do) because, as an inveterate number-checker, I noted 3.652/3.674 was not equal to (1-0.332)/(1-0.328).
As I pretty-much expected, within the duncansteel 'essay' there is no explanation for the difference which amounts to +0.048Wm^-2 (AD1750-2000). It is presumably the forcing he asserts is causing all the change in albedo but it seems very high for a net annual average for duncansteel's silly CSI theory (which in his thumbnail graphical presentation appears to only peak at 10x this value seasonally and regionally, peaks then balanced by negative peaks). So I wonder if this 0.048Wm^-2 figure (AD1750-2000) is the net annual change in insolation due to orbit (of which duncansteel CSI is but a small part).
Duncansteel's Journal of Cosmology paper reported by Tom Curtis @339 adds an interesting extra dimension to all this nonsense. Why is duncansteel silent about it? Why post his 'essay' on his website in Spetember with an "Invitation to review and identify errors" when a version of it has already published six months before?
Okay within the published paper he is discussing the well-understood total change due to insolation (CIT) and not the very minor effect of taking months to equal a twelfth part of the orbit (CSI). But all that climate work done on the subject that already accounts for duncansteel's CIT doesn't prevent duncansteel boldly writing:-
"The role of rising levels of anthropogenic greenhouse gases since the Industrial Revolution in causing some elevation in global temperatures is not denied herein. Rather, the measured temperature rise coupled with other observed phenomena (melting Arctic ice, growing Antarctic sea ice) are suggested to be due to the combination of AGW and CIT but with the latter being dominant."
This is different from his 'essay' where he puts (or appears to put) CSI as the great relvelation and the climate effect unaccounted for by AGW, rather than CIT.
The Journal of Cosmology paper does do a little bit better at presenting (rather than hidding) the CIT/CSI case. I note that when duncansteel does a check on his calculations, using the autumn rather than spring equinox as a start-of-year, so precise (ha) are his calculations that he loses 30% of the CIT at the vital 60ºN. But duncansteel fails again to assist the reader. You have to scale two graphs to obtain this 30% value. This inability to present his findings fairly and his inability to maintain a focused account of his work is symptomatic of the man.
So it would have been simplicity itself to plot the differences between his Figures 6a & 6b and show the size of this CSI. But as with his 'essay' the reader is left to eyeball the two graphs.
But cut&paste the figures into a graphics package and, with a more delicate bit of scaling, the size of CSI for that vital 60ºN can be calculated. It is very small. An average increase in insolation due to CSI amounts (ha) to a whopping 0.02Wm^-2 over the period mid-March to mid-July with the bulk of it occuring before mid-May. And this is the AD950-1950 figure, So safe to assume CSI is a very tiddly effect and the accusation that it is absent from AGW calculations is not yet demonstrated and not a major error if it is absent. I could continue to calculate the full annual effect for 60ºN or examine the thumbnail graphics in his 'essay' to see if they a similar or conflicting result, but I don't think it's worth the bother.
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Tom Curtis at 22:40 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
One more little comment ;)
Duncan Steel's biggest claim that his theory is empirically born out is the fact that it explains the falling Arctic Sea Ice Extent, and the rising Antarctic Sea Ice Extent over the twentieth century:
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Leto at 21:28 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Rob Honeycutt asked:
"You're clearly capable of publishing research. So, if you're so confident of your "essay" why is it not published in a respected peer reviewed journal?"
Steel answered:
The answer is because I make my living generally in other ways than gathering funds from government grants, and therefore do not need to publish in journals (in order to gather yet more grants); and also choose not to spend the considerable time required putting things into the necessary format for journal publication. On my own website I can publish what I like, and what I believe to be correct, without being forced by referees with vested interests to alter what I want to say.
Karly... Regardless of the actual flaws in Mr Steel's argument, and his failure to show that his CSI considerations can produce anything like a hockey-stick shaped temperature profile, this statement alone makes it impossible for me to take Mr Steel seriously. He expects us to believe that he has a world-changing theory that, if confirmed, would make him a household name and earn him a fortune as the poster-boy for the fossil-fuel industry, and he has been working on this theory for 16 years while the rest of the world has been barking up the wrong scientific tree... but no, he could not be bothered spending the few hours needed to format his work for submission to a reputable journal.
After a brief round of criticism here, he refuses to continue the discussion towards any sort of conclusion, takes parting shots at his critics' spelling, of all things, and disappears.
It doesn't pass the sniff test. Doesn't come close.
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Tom Curtis at 15:38 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
karly @341, regardless of his qualifications, Steel derived a massively flawed theory which he has not tested in any appreciable way against empirical evidence. When he recognized it faced criticism that he needed to respond to to retain any credibility for his theory, he squidded. That is, he disappeared in a puff of (electronic) ink, scattering ad hominens in abundance.
You may not be able to follow the nuances, but you should be able to follow these simple points:
1) His findings on orbital movements are sound, but have no implications about climate without an albedo model to change the minor seasonal variations into a significant global variation;
2) His albedo model requires both an earlier melting of ice, and and earlier freezing of the ice;
3) He claims is model is shown to be reasonable by what has been occuring with with Arctic sea ice;
4) Ergo, he claims that this data justifies a belief that the ice is both melting and freezing earlier:
That claim is transparently bollocks.
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Tom Curtis at 15:29 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
This is my last planned comment on Daniel Steel's theory.
The most fundamental problem with his theory is that, averaged over the year, the difference in insolation between 1750 AD (or 1000 AD) and now due to the milankovitch cycles is neglibible. Consequently he needs some method whereby the near linear increase in NH spring insolation over that period can become significant. His answer to that problem is found in changes in seasonal albedo due to the increased seasonal insolation. It is unsurprising that he should appeal to this, as a similar mechanism is thought to be involved in the milankovitch forcing of the glacial cycles.
To compute the effect of the interaction of changing seasonal insolation and albedo, he uses albedo data from NASA's Terra satelite, finding a total of 3.674 x 10^24 Joules of solar energy absorbed over the Gaussian year (equivalent to 228.25 W/m^2 averaged over the globe. He then faces a problem determining the albedo data for 1750. He writes:
"I continue with a rhetorical question for which we do not, and cannot, have a definitive answer. Unfortunately governments in 1750 were not far-sighted enough to start a satellite observation program similar to those currently being carried out."
and then continues three paragraphs later:
"With that in mind I can argue that the albedo back in 1750 is what scientists often call a free parameter[9]. I can choose any values that I want in order to conduct the experiment that I want to do. I should be sensible, though, and make a justifiable choice."
I would not be so hasty to jump to an arbitrary choice in generating a theory. The issue is, however, what is his choice, and is it any good. He continues:
"What I will do is to pick up the absorptivities in a region of interest (latitudes northwards of 30 degrees north, March through June), and replace them with the absorptivities from 30 days earlier (February through May), so as to simulate the effect of the putative delayed melting of the snow and ice back in 1750 compared to the present. We certainly know that the amount of Arctic ice coverage now is rather less than in the past, with record lows of sea ice being recorded in the north, justifying in principle my choice of free parameter."
Now, it is very far from evident that this is a reasonable choice, from basic principles. The recession of the perihelion relative to the NH vernal equinox only results in a drift of 4.33 days. That is not the only effect driving the theory, but it is by far the most important. That 4.33 day drift in the perihelion is, however, being asked to justify a 30 day drift in albedo. That is a very large ask.
Nor is Steel's justification valid. Regardless of the merits of his case, AGW has caused considerable warming over the last century (something Steel acknowledges). Therefore at least some of any early ice and snow melt in the NH must be due to AGW, yet in justifying his theory he wants to count it all as a consequence of seasonal drift in insolation. That is, he is counting the ice albedo feedback to global warming as an intrinsic effect of the seasonal drift in insolation, which is certainly invalid.
Further, his approach not only requires that ice melt earlier in the spring, but also that water freeze later in the autumn. If it does not, because the insolation change is near zero averaged over the year, there will be near zero effect. That, however, is not what we see. Rather, we have both earlier melting and later freezing:
You will notice the changes for Autumn and Spring are closely matched. Those for Summer and Winter are not, but the seasonal change in insolation for those times of year is small. (You will also notice the lack of an obvious trend in retreating ice in the early twentieth century, contrary to Steel's hypothesis.)
That, of course, is just one measure. Other measures of times of freezing, or thawing are available, of which one of the most convenient is the freezing and thawing dates for Lake Mendota, Wisconsin:
As it happens, the lake is freezing later by 8.3 days per century, and thawing earlier by 8.5 days per century, so the change in albedo for Autumn is nearly that for Spring. That is not projectable back to 1750, however, as other evidence strongly suggests an ongoing cooling at that time (again contrary to Steel's theory).
So, not only is Steel's hypothesis about ice and snow albedo unjustified, its most crucial point (the opposite trends in spring and autumn) is directly contrary to available evidence. This key point to his theory also stands as empirically refuted.
As a final note, using his faulty albedo assumptions, Steel calculates a difference in energy recieved over the gaussian year of 0.022 x10^24 Joules (ie, a "forcing" of 1.37 W/m^2). He calculates that as a difference of 0.6% in absorbed solar radiation, which he compares to the 0.17% of TOA insolation found by the IPCC. Experienced AGW-myth busters will immediately recognize the misleading comparison made by the switch of units. In fact, the "forcing" from seasonal drift in insolation is 0.1% of top of atmosphere insolation. Put another way, as calculated it is just 60% of the anthropogenic radiative forcing. Even that, however, is misleading for a substantial part of the "forcing" from seasonal drift in insolation is part of the ice albedo feedback. The correct way to caclulate the actual forcing from a given albedo model would be to take the difference between the model with unchanged insolation and that with changed insolation, rather than treating it all as being a consequence of the drift in seasonal insolation.
This point, however is inconsequential, for (as previously noted), Steel's assumptions about albedo are simply false, and if corrected will radically reduce the calculated effect.
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karly at 15:00 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
I have read this thread with sheer astonishment, as it seems to contain mostly complaints that Dr Steel didn’t do what they would have done. Since none of the posters admit to any scientific training whatsoever (Mr Curtis is apparently a ‘philosopher’), or have stated their qualifications, I am inclined to agree with Dr Steel’s conclusions that “Anyone reading this website is mostly reading garbage. It is clear that the motivation of many participants is simply arguing and chest-beating”. An interesting example of how science is not done.
Moderator Response:[JH]
Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can be rescinded if the posting individual treats adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
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michael sweet at 12:31 PM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
I looked over Duncan Steel's paper that Tom linked. DS claims:
The changing insolation theory (CIT) mooted herein is capable of explaining various observed phenomena which the AGW hypothesis has not yet been able to accommodate. Specifically, what has been observed and is pertinent here are the following:
1. A gradual rise in mean global temperature over the past two centuries;
2. Accelerating spring and summer melting of Arctic sea ice reaching an extent not previously witnessed;
3. No substantial loss of Antarctic sea ice, and actually a small growth in its extent (Shepherd et al. 2010; Parkinson and Cavalieri 2012);
4. The greatest rises in regional temperatures (and temperature variability) being at high northern latitudes (Liu et al. 2007; Wu et al. 2011).
Perhaps if DS read Arhennius paper from 1896 (see link in article) he would not make such an absurd claim. Arhennius predicted that the Arctic would be affected before the Antarctic. In addition Arhennius predicted that the night would warm faster than the day (not predicted or explained by DS), the winter faster than summer (the opposite is wrongly predicted by DS) and the land would warm faster than over the ocean (not predicted by DS). DS provides no data on snow and ice cover to support his claims. If these are the reasons to adopt DS proposal it will be easy to make the decision.
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Tom Curtis at 10:07 AM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Further to the issue of peer reviewed publication, it turns out that DS has published in an open access, online Journal of Cosmology (article 6 of issue 22). The Journal of Cosmology purports to be peer reviewed, and does have some members of its editorial board who are noteworthy, and do publish in the Journal. Nevertheless, it does appear as #249 on Jeffrey Beall's 2014 list of "Questionable stand alone jounals".
The article differs in that, unlike the blogpost, it contains no estimate of the magnitude of the effect. Rather, it restricts itself to suggesting that the effect may be a factor in the reduction in Arctic sea ice extent and concurrent extension of Antarctic sea ice extent (which may be true). It also gives a more detailed account of climatologist's errors, actually naming names and citing articles. I have not gone through the list to see if Steel is correct, but none of the articles mentioned deal with recent climate change or climate models. So no evidence that DS presents that I have seen shows that climate models (and hence IPCC accounts of recent climate change) fail to correctly calculate changes in monthly insolation by latitude.
On a side not, DS has been busy promoting his theory, with two articles for the GWPF. He also has a 2002 article for the Guardian telling us that "Climate Change is good for us", apparently because it ensure we won't stumble into an ice age. That is inconsistent with his current account, based on which natural warming due precession of the perihelion relative to the equinox should guaranttee that for quite some time.
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Tom Curtis at 08:39 AM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
An addendum to my post @330, casual readers may wonder why I am so completely dismissive of the possibility that the heat gain postulated by Duncan Steel should be absorbed by the melting of ice alone, so that it has no temperature response. That is a key suppositon of DS's, designed to evade empirical tests in that we have a reasonably good idea as to what has happened to temperatures over the last 1000 years, and better yet over the last 250 years. Over the last 1000 years, global temperatures have declined slightly until about the last 150 years, since when they have risen sharply. In contrast, DS's theory predicts a linear increase in temperature since prior to 1000 AD.
In his blogpost, he writes:
"I can now conduct the desired experiment, which has an aim of calculating the total solar energy that would have been absorbed back in 1750 if the absorptivity were slightly lower in that region of interest. When I do this computation, the result is that the total absorbed solar energy is 3.652 x 10^24 joules, and the average terrestrial albedo 0.332. In the previous calculation the figures were 3.674 x 10^24 joules, and an albedo of 0.328."
That calculation is made based a simply false assumption about albedo that DS chose as "a free parameter", or which more in a later post. For now, however, we can accept that as his estimate of the warming effect, which according to his theory goes into ice melt rather than temperature rises. Some simple calculations shows that that amount of energy going into icemelt would melt 71,850 km^3 of ice annualy. That in turn is enough ice to raise sea levels by 0.2 meters per year.
Further, because the primary effect is linear, we can calculate a rough approximation of the effect over 250 years, which would be to melt 8,980,000 km^3 of ice, raising sea levels by 24.9 meters.
I think we would have noticed.
Note that these calculations do not refute DS's basic theory. They do refute his evasion of the expectation that his basic theory should predict a linear rise in global temperatures (if he is correct about the impacts). Of course, the later expectation together with the global temperature record refutes the idea that the orbital changes he identifies has had any significant impact on global temperatures.
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Rob Honeycutt at 04:03 AM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
duncansteel wrote... "Those who like to call me "arrogant" might care to note that I preface essentially all statements regarding my own work with a qualifying term such as "unless I have made an error" or "if I am correct"."
Okay, you say "unless I have made an error" but you don't seem capable of accepting that you could have made an error. That is the arrogance that people are pointing out.
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Rob Honeycutt at 03:55 AM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
duncansteel... "By publishing things on the web I make them available for scrutiny by anyone and everyone,..."
And yet you seem to find the act of people here scrutinizing your work "bemuzing."
Duncan, look, you're making claims here relative to AGW that contradict (or minimizes) the position of nearly everyone who actively researches this issue, as with your statement, "No, AGW is not the only agency causing the changes: there appears to be a natural effect (CSI) which has been ignored or neglected or not recognised previously."
No one rejects that you might have something worthwhile to contribute to the body of research, but posting a blog essay and using that as your primary reference... let's say, that just falls well short of what is expected of a significant finding.
If you believe your ideas are valid, do what every other researcher does. Submit to peer review. As I said in my first comment, you're clearly capable of producing publishable research. So, just do it.
From my experience watching the climate science issue advance over the years, what I continually see is people, like yourself who have clear expertise in a specific area, believing that they understand the entire breadth of the climate change issue when, in actuality, they understand very little of the other broader elements of the global climate system that come into play. And worse, in these situations, people such as yourself seem to lack the self awareness to understand what they don't yet understand relative to other areas of research.
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Firgoose at 03:35 AM on 2 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #44B
There's no link above to Rising Temperatures: A Month Versus a Decade. Likewise the links within the excerpt.
Moderator Response:[Jh] Links fixed. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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metapontum at 02:23 AM on 2 November 2014Why the IPCC synthesis report is necessary but not sufficient to secure a response to climate change
As the AOSIS spokesman quoted above said, "leaders [must] take the wheel and, using the latest science available, bring us over the finish line." IPCC AR5 Sythesis includes now the core-strategy-issue for that leadership, shaping, sharing and shrinking the global carbon budget.
Here is tool that might help that: -
http://morphic.it/cbat/#domain-1/feedbackModerator Response:[JH] Link activated.
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John Hartz at 01:12 AM on 2 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
The arrogance exhibited by DuncanSteel on this comment thread does not square with how he describes himself on the About Me & Contact Information page of his website. Steel states:
I am a friendly and affable sort of a guy, but somewhat of an introvert in person.
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MA Rodger at 21:20 PM on 1 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Humbly, I have to admit error.
@319, when I wrote that I had identified a problem within DuncanSteel's account of his CSI hypothesis, I failed to identify the nature of that problem. That problem in my opinion is evidently DuncanSteel.His reply @327 to my comment @319 correctly points out that he did mention within his lengthy comment @305 the difference between projected and global measures of forcing but he never manages to say that he had at one point within his CSI 'essay' underestimated the strength of today's AGW by 83%.
He did manage @327 to say (of his critics in this thread) “It behoves anyone and everyone to have some humility in the face of complex matters.” I think he fails to grasp that “anyone and everyone” includes himself.
I am thus not minded to spend any more time reading the ravings of such a one. However, I have probably read enough to allow a useful assessment of this CSI theory & its presentation by DuncanSteel.Ignoring the many petty errors made, the analysis may well identify an error, that is an omission within insolation calculations used in climatology. If his thesis is correct, an omission exists in the NOAA tables plotting insolation in 1,000 year steps over the last 10 million years. The omission may exist more widely.
However DuncanSteel fails to enumerate the size of this potential error. Strangely, the 'essay' appears to dodge such a step. The account moves too quickly beyond CSI as an omission within insolation calculations, to instead dwell at great length on the climatological impact of CSI. This climatological impact work is pure nonsense. The unqualified author naively attempts to out-IPCC the IPCC, all on his lonesome.
As for enumerating the size of the potential CSI, the 'essay' provides two graphical results. (Apologies here, but the 'essay' has no way of referencing its various parts. The first graphic result is a plot of 'Difference in Ecliptic Longitudes AD950-AD1950' and the second is two series of thumbnail monthly charts of 'Change in Insolation AD1000 to AD2000 ' one with and one without CSI.) Neither of these graphical results allows a direct reading of the strength of CSI.
Be CSI an omission or not, examination of those graphics suggests the size of the CSI effect AD1000 to AD2000 amounts to +2Wm^-2 insolation (+0.002Wm^-2/year) over high northern latitudes during the merry months of April & May and -2Wm^-2 insolation (-0.002Wm^-2/year) over higher northern latitudes during the jolly months of July & August.To compare this with AGW, AR5 Table AII.2 yields an annual average year-round and global forcing increase averaged over the last 30 years of +0.026Wm^-2/year, many times higher than the part-year, part-globe CSI which is also a small part of the insolation changes over the last 1,000 years, an effect which is adjudged, with or without any omission, to be insignificant in comparison to AGW.
I thus concur with the many critics of DuncanSteel here. CSI, if it has been overlooked, is very small compared with AGW. Thus DuncanSteel would be in grave error to continue to state:-
“the CSI model should be adopted as the central working hypothesis for contemporary climate change, although as I alluded earlier it would not be reasonable to think that AGW is not also contributing to the observed changes.”
However, the evidence demonstrating a small CSI will likely not stop him.
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