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Vonnegut at 19:47 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
"It doesn't mean that coral reefs around the globe are going to be fine under ocean acidification conditions. It does mean that there are some coral communities out there--and we've found one--that appear to have figured it out. But that doesn't mean that all coral reef ecosystems are going to figure it out."
So because someone said that I have to agree with it? is that how science works?
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Dikran Marsupial at 19:41 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
vonnegut. you first raised the example of Palau in your post here, where you gave this link:
http://nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?org=NSF&cntn_id=130129&preview=false
Do you agree that the text at that link includes the following quote:
"It doesn't mean that coral reefs around the globe are going to be fine under ocean acidification conditions. It does mean that there are some coral communities out there--and we've found one--that appear to have figured it out. But that doesn't mean that all coral reef ecosystems are going to figure it out."
If so please explain why you are ignoring this explicit caveat. Note that you are currently misrepresenting what your source of information actually says, which is every bit as much of an academic wrong-doing as plagiarism.
I suggest we ignore voneggut until he/she gives an adequate explanation of why he/she is repeatedly ignoring this caveat, even though it has been pointed out more than once. -
Vonnegut at 19:35 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Wont the free swimming stage every month mean they are widely distributed?
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Tom Curtis at 19:20 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut @75, the individual coral polyps are probably not very old at all. The coral species, however, are likely thousands of years old, and potentially 100s of thousands years old, with Palau adapted subspecies being less than about 8 thousand years old.
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Tom Curtis at 19:17 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut @72, it is highly unlikely that a mobile species such as fish would adapt more rapidly than corals. That is for two reasons. The first of these is that species adapt to the range of environments they typically experience. For mobile species, that is likely a far greater range than for sessile species such as corals. Second, fish are likely to have a slower rate of repreduction, which slows adaption. Corals reproduce monthly, and in bulk which allows a very fast turn over of generations, and high mutation rates - both conducive to rapid adaption. Fish are variable, but generally have fewer generations in a given period, and fewer offspring.
Consequently, while fish are probably well able to survive being caught in tide pools with aberrant pH values, that is probably primarilly because the pH is normalized within hours so that the damage, if any, is transient and quickly recovered. In contrast to that case, with OA there will be no convenient tides to flush out the water and restore the prior pH balance.
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Vonnegut at 19:05 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
"Although coral mortality was as high as 90% is some areas after the 1998 bleaching event, recovery has been tremendous. The Palau International Coral Reef Center has monitored 22 sites since 2001 and found that coral cover has increased at an annual rate of 2.9% from 2001 to 2004. The average coral cover across all monitoring sites in 2004 was 31%. Surveys from 2006-2007 show continuing recovery and increased coral cover at all sites. In addition to the Protected Areas Network Act of 2003, which supports local communities in setting up MPAs, the Micronesia Challenge is a specific initiative originally proposed by the President of the Republic of Palau that has attracted wide support"
www.reefbase.org/global_database/default.aspx?section=t4
Maybe many corals arent that old in Palau?
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Tom Curtis at 18:14 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut, consider your text in your post @72. If I wanted to quote it, I would first copy and paste it. I would make sure it was a seperate paragraph. I would then place quotation marks at the start and the begining of the text. Having done all that, I would then highlight the text, including the quotation marks and press the "blockquote" button on the basic dashboard of comments. The result:
"While I agree with the thrust of your argument, its easy to forget there are many other creatures that live in the area by choice and are free swimming so maybe adaption to an environment like this is more instant. Such as when the tide goes out fish get stuck in tidal pools and have to put up with less alkaline even sometimes acidic water."
If the quotation was on a different site, or a different page on this site, I would then indicate who wrote it, and where. Often I do that simply by name and with a link in the introduction to the quote. If I wanted to emphasize a particular point within the quotation, I would highlight it, but then note in brackets after the quote that the emphasis (ie, the highlighting) was mine.
Now, here is a quote from my post @66:
"Interestingly, the site at Milne Bay has the '... local traditional site name “Illi Illi Bua Bua” [which] translates to “Blowing Bubbles”' (Fabricius 2011, supplementary information)."
(Emphasis added).
You will notice that I have emphasized the quote within that quote by italicizing it. That was probably necessary to avoid confusion, given the number of double and single quotation marks in the text. As the quote from Fabricius was only of part of a sentence, I did not give it a distinct paragraph, but rather simply led into within the sentence. I made a point of noting missing text with ellipsis ( "..."); and of noting my addition to the text by enclosing it in square brackets ( "[ xxx ]"). Neither the omission nor the addition alter the meaning of the text. It is important that you never in fact alter the meaning of the text when quoting. The addition was only necessary to form a gramatically correct sentence. Of course, you can, and typically should check those claims for yourself, which is one of the reasons citing the source is necessary. I forget to include the link through pure oversight. That is, I intended to do it, but forgot that I had not yet done so when I pressed submit.
For now, as this is new to you, do not bother with quoting anything less than a full paragraph. Make sure you enclose it in quotation marks and indent it with the blockquote button, and cite the source prefferably with a link. It is too easy for inexperienced quoters to inadvertently alter the meaning of text if they try to do more than that.
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Tom Curtis at 17:57 PM on 5 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
jja @56, sorry, I was insufficiently clear.
I understand that your equation for TOA flux is:
y=0.1243*x^2 - 0.2485*x +0.2175
where y is the TOA flux, and x is the date.
When I plug that equation in using years AD for X, I get values of the order of 500,000. I am sure you will agree that is absurd. Consequently I tried subtracting 1977 from AD for years on the assumption that years are numbered over the period of interest. In that case, 2008 has a "TOA flux" ~116 W/m^2 which is again absurd. At that stage I have assumed that you are not using years as a unit, and have asked for the units for duration (x-axis) and the origen for the x-axis expressed in terms of AD.
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Vonnegut at 17:33 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
@71 sorry Tom I cannot see any quotes in the piece you posted on 71 Just 2 links. When I press the " button it doesnt put quotes on the text It just moves the cursor..
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Vonnegut at 17:28 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
While I agree with the thrust of your argument, its easy to forget there are many other creatures that live in the area by choice and are free swimming so maybe adaption to an environment like this is more instant. Such as when the tide goes out fish get stuck in tidal pools and have to put up with less alkaline even sometimes acidic water.
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Tom Curtis at 17:24 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut @69, my text, where not in quotes, is original to me. I researched the facts, formed an opinion, and then expressed that opinion in my own words. You are quite welcome to look up the supplementary material of Shamberger et al (2014) which is linked above, or that of Fabricius et al (2011) to confirm that fact. You will find the only direct quote is regarding the local name of the Milne Bay site, which I clearly indicated by single inverted commas.
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Tom Curtis at 17:19 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut @68, the corals of Palau are clearly adapted to unusually low pH. That adaption may mean they are more resistant to even very low relative pH levels, so that they can survive at a pH of 7.4 while other corals are dying of at 7.8. Alternatively, it may mean they have a narrower range of reduction in pH before they reach the limit of their adaptability. Which of these is true depends on:
1) How long they have been adapted to near their current levels of pH (selection under pressure reduces genetic variability, limiting the pace of future adaptions);
2) Whether or not there exists a hard biological limit in pH below which corals simply cannot adapt to no matter how long they have to do so; and
3) The extent to which they have experience lower pH than current in prior years (which may allow some level of pre-adaption).
Which of these is the case cannot be determined a priori, and indeed probably require very detailed and carefull studies to determine.
What can be known with high probability from the general situation is that coral health is not independant of pH levels, so that significantly decreased pH will decrease the health of a coral community (and a reduction of pH from 7.8 to 7.4 represents a 150% increase in Hydrogen ion activity). Further, it is known that elevated CO2 concentrations will decrease pH even within Palau's lagoons. Consequently OA is still a problem for Palau. It just may be less of a problem than for other coral communites, or possibly more depending on the factors described above.
On a side note, the discovery of the acidity resistance of the Palau corals is unquestionably good knews in one respect. While those corals may or may not be able to survive at Palau with future pH reductions, they will be able to survive if transplanted to other locations with, currently, higher pH. While this would not save all coral species, nor save the great barrier reefs it does mean coral phylum is less likely to go extinct. It probably wasn't going to in any event, but this provides a significant boost to the phylums chance of survival.
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Vonnegut at 17:06 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
I see your text isnt in quotes like mine isnt what did I do wrong that you didnt?
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jja at 16:59 PM on 5 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
geez, sorry
Total Energy per decade = ((TOA)/(.62))*10YEARS*1E22
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jja at 16:57 PM on 5 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
Tom,
The function that you are using plots the decadel energy deposition in Watts/m^2
y=.1243*x^2 - .2485*x +.2175
The values produced are
decade Energy
1 0.0933
2 0.2177
3 0.5907
4 1.2123
5 2.0825
6 3.2013
7 4.5687To reproduce the graph, take the above values and convert from annual average W/m^2 to decadel total energy deposition
use the following conversion: Total Energy per decade = ((TOA)/(.62*10))*1E22
This produces the following values for total energy added in each decade:
Decade Energy added in the Decade
1 1.50E+22
2 3.51E+22
3 9.53E+22
4 1.96E+23
5 3.36E+23
6 5.16E+23
7 7.37E+23The first data point is 1978 which began at 5.5E22joules
1978 5.5E22joules
Then add the first decades value to 1978 to get the 1988 value
1988 7E22joules Then add the next decade value to the 1988 value
1998 10.51joules and so on to produce the final values
year energy value
1978 5.5E+22
1988 7.005E+22
1998 1.052E+23
2008 2.004E+23
2018 3.96E+23
2028 7.319E+23
2038 1.248E+24
2048 1.985E+24
incidentally, I performed another test that added the 1968 value of -4E22 and found the following function that produced a higher energy deposition rate in future years. Both of these functions produce a current TOA that is within the error range estimation of Hansen and Soto for their 2008 average. What is very interesting is how rapidly this TOA is rising as the global temperature surface temperatures have stabilized.
I consider this to be a high-range estimate and the previous to be the mid-response estimate.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/2z4lfkp.jpg -
Tom Curtis at 16:56 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
I note that the entirety of Vonnegut's post @66 except for the last sentence is plagiarized from NOAA. Plagiarism is academic fraud. It should not be tolerated. It also appears to be a repeated practise by Vonnegut.
On the off chance that he knows no better, quotations should:
1) Always be enclosed in quotation marks;
2) If in a large block of more than one sentence, should be placed in a seperate indented paragraph (you can use the quotation symbol on the basic tab of the comments box to indent);
3) Should have any changes to the text, including any addition of emphasis clearly noted; and
4) Should have the source clearly stated, preferrably with a link.
Any time you cut and past text from any source, that is a quotation, and needs to be acknowledged as such.
I request that the moderators from now on practise zero tolerance to plagiarism from Vonnegut.
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Vonnegut at 16:50 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Presumably, in a hundred years the pH in the lagoons will be lower than the pH in the open ocean withing 100 years as well.
So whatever disaster awaits the other oceans will/should happen here first? Surely this must be the place to study above all other?
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From Peru at 12:21 PM on 5 February 2014Google Earth: how much has global warming raised temperatures near you?
Do not worry. Somehow myself deleted the second graph. It should be this:Please, could you tell me how I can edit the images once I inserted them, and how I can stack them below the text?
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From Peru at 12:10 PM on 5 February 2014Google Earth: how much has global warming raised temperatures near you?
My apologies for the repeated comment. It was a malfunction of my computer
Moderator Response:The much duplicated post read:
I am disgusted by the data quality in my city, the capital of Peru:
Note to moderator: it is extremely difficult to include images, because they go anywhere in the comment, now one is superposed to another and cannot be edited.Please help! (there should be two graphs)
I unfortunately deleted one too many copies.
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Tom Curtis at 12:07 PM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
To put Vonnegut's discussion of Palau into perspective, the from the supplementary material of the paper, we find that site 9, the most acidic of the sites examined, has a pH of 7.84 (See Table S1). Site 9 certainly has a very healthy coral community, as shown by this picture of the site:
For perspective, however, that should be compared to the coral from Milne Bay, Papua/New Guinea discussed in Fabricius et al, 2011:
The most comparable site from Fabricius et al is site b, with a pH of 7.8-8. Although comparable in pH, clearly the Nassau site 9 is thriving far better than site b in Milne Bay (a point I will return to). However, equally, as the pH continues to fall, corals find it still harder to survive, until they die out completely. Ocean pH is projected to fall well below 7.8 by 2100 with high level emission scenarios. Consequently the fact that coral in Palau can survive at relatively low pH is little long term comfort without mitigation of emissions.
It should be noted that site 9 from Palau, like site B from Milne Bay, has no branching corals, ie, the corals most vulnerable to ocean acidification. Ocean acidity, therefore, is still having an effect in Palau. Some local feature, however, is allowing some corals to still continue to thrive, establishing the basis for a thriving marine community.
There are some further interesting nuances. Interestingly, the site at Milne Bay has the '... local traditional site name “Illi Illi Bua Bua” [which] translates to “Blowing Bubbles”' (Fabricius 2011, supplementary information). That traditional name indicates that the volcanic seep which creates the acidic conditions has existed for some time, possibly for centuries. In contrast, the unique conditions in Palau have existed for at least a few thousand of years, and potentially for as much as 8 thousand years. That difference is important. Biological organisms take time to adapt to new conditions. It is clear that in Milne Bay they have not adapted well. That is evidence that a century or two is not adequate time for an appropriate adaption. Palau indicates, on the other hand that several thousands of years are enough time for an adequate adaption (if not for branching corals). The problem is, with the rate of ocean acidification from anthropogenic emissions, corals do not have centuries within which to adapt, but mere decades. Therefore the Milne Bay example is far more likely to be informative about the probable impacts on corals globally than are the those at Palau.
Finally, the situation is grave even for the corals at Palau. That is because they are currently adapted to pH levels in the lagoons equivalent to the expected open ocean pH in a hundred years. That pH, however, is lowered (ie, more acidic) relative to the the current pH in the open ocean near Palau. Presumably, in a hundred years the pH in the lagoons will be lower than the pH in the open ocean withing 100 years as well. That means, the Palau corals will face pH levels significantly lower than those they currently face, with mere decades to adapt when many centuries, and possible more are required to adapt to that reduced pH - if it is possible.
So, Vonnegut's read on the Palau corals depends on focussing on one fact only. He does not consider the entire context, either chemically, or biologically. It is only thate very limited view of the evidence that allows him to avoid its implications.
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ubrew12 at 11:56 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
Denier inflation alert: Given the stunning retreat of summer Arctic Ice in the last 20 years, why is the 'fact' that ice didn't disappear COMPLETELY in 2013 some kind of 'proof' that Global Warming is a hoax? Why, if the five hottest years in known history occurred since the turn of this century (according to Cowtan & Way's analysis), yet temperatures didn't increase as much as they did between 1978 and 1998, is this proof that Global Warming is a hoax?
The value of 'Doubt is our Product' denialism is the assumption that 'they' own the goalposts, and will move them whereever they want. Because, don't ya know, they are just THAT kind of sticklers for perfection. All I can say is: I want THAT job!
I can't believe the number of deniers who have told me the Climate Models are broken. Who have no Climate Models, and can't point to any, despite being backed by the most profitable industry in the history of capitalism, that models EVERYTHING, from oil tanker designs, to oil fields, to chemical refineries, to pipelines, and for which Climate Change as an existential threat to its profitability. No competing Climate models of any kind.
This reminds me of Graffiti taggers. Someone else builds a bridge and people say 'its beautiful'. Then the tagger paints the bridge with his favorite swear word and points out 'no, its not'. And then, amazingly, some people start to agree with him...
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chriskoz at 11:54 AM on 5 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
HK@52,
What I find most striking is the fact that even if the atmospheric warming in the last decade had continued at the same rate as before 2000 (0.2oC/decade), this would only add about 1 percent (!!) to the present energy imbalance.
If read literally - i.e. if atmospheric warming was higher, then Earth energy imbalance (TOA) would increase marginally, by 1% - it would contradict the basics of IR radiation theory. Increased atmospheric temperature results with more energy loss due to IR and that should lead to the decrease of global "energy imbalance", as defined in this article (TOA energy budget measured by satelites), contradicting your statement.
I read it as such but then I realised that of course by the "energy imbalance" you must mean the "measure of heat accumulation". Then your statement is true and supports your conclusion.
So beware to describe your concepts precisely, otherwise people like me won't understand you. Or worse: the denialists will pick up on your words and spin the story against you.
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Tom Curtis at 09:46 AM on 5 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
jja @51, I am having a great deal of difficulty reproducing your results. Specifically, you have not specified an origin for your formulas discussed in previous posts, and using 0 AD (=1 BC) as the origin gives nonsense results using those formalas. Further, using your formula for the TOA flux of y=.1243*x^2 - .2485*x +.2175 does not yield sensible results for any choice of origin if I use years as the units of the x axis.
Can you please confirm that that is the correct formula, and specify units and origin for the x-axis?
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Vonnegut at 09:31 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Palau’s rich marine biota include approximately 400 species of hard corals, 300 species of soft corals, 1400 species of reef fishes, 7 out of 9 of the world’s species of giant clams, thousands of other invertebrates (many still to be identified), the world’s most isolated colony of dugongs (a relative of the sea cow) and Micronesia’s only saltwater crocodiles. Terrestrial species include 1260 species of plants (including almost 200 endemics), 141 resident and migratory bird species (including 11 endemics), 5000 species of insects, and 40 species of freshwater fishes, including at least 4 endemics. Palau has the largest undisturbed forest and largest freshwater lake in Micronesia,, and 70 unique marine lakes
Its not so isolated that all the species there are unique.
Moderator Response:[PS] It would help your readers if you explained how your statement of facts progresses your argument.
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joeygoze9259 at 08:56 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
chriskoz@18
If you want to argue on who is parsing words, the predictions made in 2007, 2008, and 2009 I was taking from Al Gore so if he failed to use the words "if the trend continues", I would correct your statement to say it was "simple and primative distortion of the scientific literature by alarmists" That "moronic slogan" was repeated by Al Gore, John Kerry and even as late as March of 2013, Paul Beckwith from the Sierra Club when he wrote "“For the record—I do not think that any sea ice will survive this summer (2013). An event unprecedented in human history is today, this very moment, transpiring in the Arctic Ocean." Italics is added to refer to the year he is speaking about.
My issue with the above article is the characterization that the denial of a greenhouse effect existing at all is mainstream argument. That is simply not true. No one from any side of this discussion in the mainstream is arguing that CO2 can not trap heat or that No greenhouse effect exists. If there was NO greenhouse effect, then the Earth would be very inhospitable place to live.
Moderator Response:[JH] Please doument your source of information about the statements supposedly made by Al Gore, John Kerry, and Paul Beckwith.
BTW, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Paul Beckwith are not climate scientists.
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grindupBaker at 08:48 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
joeygoze #15 different bucket. I've computed with virtual certainty that it's more than 5 decimal orders of magnitude more incompetent to disbelieve a solid bit of physics, that school kids are demonstrating in videos, than to predict 2013 as the exact year in which the arctic will be ice free. Nonetheless, please provide a link to some of the persons who said that so that we can ponder it.
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Vonnegut at 08:39 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
The good news stories are also scientific its just the google search function is still lacking.
I hope you also notice I refrain from posting links from the 'other' side.
Moderator Response:[PS] There is no problem whatsoever posting links "from the other side" - especially if what you are posting is links to published science. If you are being misled by misinformation sites, then many here will be happy to explain why you are reading is misleading.
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Dikran Marsupial at 08:15 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut, read the article, don't ignore the caveats, don't over interpret the observations as implying that OA may be OK when the article explicitly says not to. If you need to go through lots of bad news stories (or scientific studies to give them a more accurate name) to find a good news story, that is an indication that things are not looking too good. This doesn't mean the world will end, or the sky will fall in, that is hyperbole, but it does mean that there is likely to be a substantial problem, and there is no point in ignoring that fact.
One thing that is required is that you don't downplay the objections to your arguments in the way you did at post 60.
Wading through all the papers is part of a scientists job, and there is nothing they would like more than to prove that OA is OK, it would make them famous as well as being good news.
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Vonnegut at 07:50 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
@61 what does it take? Imagine how many scientists are looking to find a story which disproves OA? and how hard it is to wade thru all the papers which claim it may happen?
In other words its hard to find a good news story because you have to go thru all the bad news stories first.
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chriskoz at 07:43 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
joeygoze@15,
It needs to be clarified, that "forecasts made in 2007, 2008 and 2009 predicting an ice free arctic in 2013" were not any forcasts but simple & primitive distortion of scientific literature by deniers.
Wieslaw Maslowski predicted back in 2007 (before we saw the Sept 2007 minimum) "nearly ice free arctic" in 2016+/-3years, if the trend (as pointed by ubrew12@14) continues.
Deniers took Maslowski sentence, removed the "if the trend continues" clause, removed uncertainty, instead picking up the lower bound of uncertainty value (2013) and estaqblished it as the abosolutely certain, central value, thus creating the bogus, moronic slogan you're refering to.
So this "argument" by deniers is so silly that no scientist (inc maslowski) bothers to even listen, but we must debunk such arguments over and over because simple slogans "stick hard" to many minds. And unfortunately, many of those affected minds are supposed to take responsibility to reverse AGW (e.g. US Congress) but stick their heads in the sand.
There is an important need to debunk such slogans with basic science, and this article does good job with several of them related to IR.
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Dikran Marsupial at 07:37 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
vonnegut wrote "I posted reports to support my view but was told it was just one reef"
That is a misrepresentation of the discussion. You were told that the reef in question was deeply unrepresentative of reefs in general, and the article that you referenced explained that quite clearly, and therefore didn't support your point. The article itself contained that caveat explicitly.
You will excuse me if my patience wears somewhat thin. -
Vonnegut at 07:31 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
I posted reports to support my view but was told it was just one reef , its by far one of the best outdoor labs on the planet. I cant prove all ocean creatures will adapt just the same as no one can prove they wont, time will tell.
www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-02/palau-scientists-hope-theyve-found-coral-reef-save-all-coral-reefs
www.whoi.edu/news-release/palau-corals
news.stanford.edu/news/2013/april/urchins-ocean-acidity-040813.html
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michael sweet at 07:21 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut,
Your statements contain so many incorrect "facts" that it is difficult to know where to start.
Most fish that are kept 5C below or above the normal temperatures where they are from will stop reproducing and their immune systems will shut down. They will die in a year or two. They can survive tempory drops or increases in temperature much greater than that, but not long term.
You are simply not looking if you have not noticed any changes in flora and fauna in your area. It is difficult to find something you do not look for. Simply compare the changes in the USDA hardiness zones to see dramatic differences in temperature in just the last decade. Stone fruits do not produce fruit in many locations where they were traditionally grown. In my back yard I have over a dozen trees (includingfour jackfruit trees) that would have been killed by cold 30 years ago. Many of my neighbors have the same. The bark beatles that are killing forrests all over the country are caused by AGW. Open your eyes. Some animals and plants will survive. A few will thrive (I'm betting on the cockroaches). Most will be killed. Your trite comments about coelecanths when there are severe coral bleaching events year after year demonstrates your position. You need to provide evidence that an ecosystem will survive, not a single animal. There are myriad examples of coral reefs that are currently dying from the effects of heat and pH. While the Palau example was surprising, the overwhelming trend is down for coral worldwide. Look at the drought in the American West. Tell me where you live and I will give you examples of plants and animals that are dying off because of AGW.
You need to stop making statements like "small drop in pH" when you obviously have little knowledge of how pH works. You rarely provide evidence to support your wild claims. You claim you could post studies of creatures that would thrive, but you do not provide such evidence. When you go to look for it you will find the overwhelming majority of evidence is that things are doing worse. Read the background information so that you can understand what others are trying to tell you. Your basic science knowledge is sorely lacking.
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Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
ubrew12 @13 and Jim. I sometimes counter the "but it's such a tiny amount" argument by suggesting the person posting it to try the same when a cop is giving them a roadside breathalyzer test. "But officer, that tiny fraction of alchohol by volume just CAN'T have affected my driving."
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Vonnegut at 06:39 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
@57 What can I say ive seen a small change in the mean global temp and noticed no difference, Ive seen a drop of 0.3 ph in my aquarium and seen no dramatic changes.
I dare say something somewhere may be affected, I just dont think the sky is falling, if you get my meaning?
Moderator Response:[PS] Enough of this please. The original article points to science on this subject; if you wish to dispute this, then please cite other science that supports your viewpoint (for which your fishbowl doesnt count). Unsupported assertions will be taken as sloganeering. You might also like to look "Its not bad" but please be prepared to back your position with data.
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Composer99 at 06:34 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut, if you are unable or unwilling to accept that small changes in global mean values of X (where X can be surface temperature, ocean pH, concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, what have you) can and do have very drastic consequences, then as far as I am concerned you are wasting your time, and ours.
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Jim Eager at 06:30 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
It's almost certainly far less than 1.6 ppm, ubrew, since the dye itself is almost certainly itself a solution.
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Vonnegut at 06:29 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
The evidence is all around us, the world didnt end, I could post studies of creatures that have been tested and survived but is that what you want?
While searching ive found it very odd that no test ive seen shows the ph of the water the fish was taken from. Almost like it wasnt significant.
Moderator Response:[PS] Statement like "the world didnt end" constitute straw man arguements unless you can point to predictions made by climate scientists that it would. Enough of this kind of rhetoric please.
And yes, pointers to studies that support your viewpoint are precisely what is useful to a constructive discussion.
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joeygoze9259 at 06:20 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
I am referring to forecasts made in 2007, 2008 and 2009 predicting an ice free arctic in 2013. Clearly over the top and did not come true.
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Dikran Marsupial at 06:10 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
vonnegut wrote: "Well Dikran youre entitled to your opinion. Yes a permanent drop of 15 degrees would affect many creatures, I just dont think a small drop in ph will, thats all."
For which you provide no evidence whatsoever, and describe scientific studies that suggest otherwise as pointless. This is odd behaviour for someone who had previously stated today that they were "trying to learn thats all".
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ubrew12 at 05:57 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
joeygoze @12 said: "[Disbelieving the greenhouse effect] Goes in the same bucket as fringe arguments such as forecasts of the arctic being ice free in 2013" You can't seriously believe these are in the same bucket! The former is a refutation of basic Physics now two hundred years old. The latter is a forecast consistent with the last 30 year trend. There's a one minute stretch of this video that starts at 0:50, which shows the month by month trend in Arctic ice since the 1980s. Tell me you can look at that trend and NOT expect an ice free Arctic summer in the next decade or so!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYaubXBfVqo
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mgardner at 05:56 AM on 5 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
MA rodger and grindup baker @16,17:
I'm looking for better images to clarify these concepts because words can be ambiguous, and used to the advantage of those trying to confuse and obfuscate.
1) "deep" But there is circulation in the 700m to say 1500m range, and there is much deeper, polar thermohaline, as well as some polar thermohaline in the upper range, if I understand correctly. The mechanisms are different, as well as the magnitudes (like temp differences) and consequently time scales.2) "fallacious argument that a mass cannot warm a warmer mass" Well, that's actually not a fallacy, if you are using conventional language. Which is what the mythologizers count on. You correctly point out the result of juxtaposing such masses, but it is a matter of the cooler mass cooling the warmer mass less than a cooler cooler mass would.
So, with that bit of confusing verbiage, I renew my request: Does anyone know of or could you create some kind of illustrations/animation that show masses (water) being displaced vertically when there is e.g. Eckman pumping, and something that shows net conventional heat transfer, but applied to this particular subject?
The idea being to preclude the obfuscation about both the qualitative aspects and the magnitudes.
Moderator Response:[PW] Unnecessary white space removed.
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Vonnegut at 05:54 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
It raises the question at ph7 will it still be sea water? Will the salt fall out and freeze more readily?
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ubrew12 at 05:47 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
Something else is when Skeptics claim that 300 parts per MILLION is just too low a concentration to have any affect on 'darkening' the atmosphere to infrared light. Why, that's "next to NOTHING"! To that, I point out this ad:
http://www.poolcenter.com/p/party-pool-swimming-pool-color-dye
Yes, a mere 8oz of this dye will turn your crystal clear 20,000 gallon swimming pool black to visible radiation, twice over!
That's (half a cup/20,000 gallons)*(1gallon/16 cups) = 1.6 ppm. Oops, "Nothing" has magically become "Something"!
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Vonnegut at 05:33 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Yes small drop, have you looked at how much ph changes in the sea?
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joeygoze9259 at 05:33 AM on 5 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
This article mischaracterizes this out of the many skeptic arguments as..."One of the most ‘out there’ is that the greenhouse effect doesn’t exist..." That is a fringe argument which goes against basic physics. It is not "one of the most out there" as characterized. As you note, not even Anthony Watts accepts this argument. Goes in the same bucket as fringe arguments such as forecasts of the arctic being ice free in 2013.
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Composer99 at 05:17 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
"Small drop"?
Vonnegut, pH is a logarithmic scale.
A 0.1 decrease in pH represents an enormous change in the acidity of ocean waters.
From Wikipedia:
Between 1751 and 1994 surface ocean pH is estimated to have decreased from approximately 8.25 to 8.14,[5] representing an increase of almost 30% in H+ ion concentration in the world's oceans.[6][7] [Emphasis mine.]
Wikipedia's sources are noted in the excerpt are:
(5) Jacobson, M. Z. (2005). "Studying ocean acidification with conservative, stable numerical schemes for nonequilibrium air-ocean exchange and ocean equilibrium chemistry". Journal of Geophysical Research – Atmospheres 110: D07302. Bibcode:2005JGRD..11007302J. doi:10.1029/2004JD005220.
(6) Hall-Spencer, J. M.; Rodolfo-Metalpa, R.; Martin, S.; et al. (July 2008). "Volcanic carbon dioxide vents show ecosystem effects of ocean acidification". Nature 454 (7200): 96–9. Bibcode:2008Natur.454...96H. doi:10.1038/nature07051. PMID 18536730.
(7) Report of the Ocean Acidification and Oxygen Working Group, International Council for Science's Scientific Committee on Ocean Research (SCOR) Biological Observatories Workshop [This is a PDF document that Wikpedia links directly to.]
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DSL at 05:09 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
And the Honisch et al. bibliography is also a great place to go next.
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DSL at 05:08 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Vonnegut, you seem to be searching for something that allows you to say, "gotcha!" and then walk away. If you were actually trying to understand how it all works, you'd lose the "you're so dumb" attitude and read over both the entire OA is not OK series and some of the more comprehensive studies, starting with Honisch et al. 2012. You'd then say, "ok, this is how I understand it . . . am I right?"
Instead, you're saying, "Ok, this is how I understand it, and I don't really care for your amateurish opinion on my understanding. It's clear that this is not happening or is not a problem. No, I don't need evidence. Or, rather, I need only need evidence to the extent that the evidence supports my pre-existing opinion."
I'll also point out that it's fine to play devil's advocate (e.g. "but what about X?"), but it's not ok to attach subtext that argues that scientists don't know what they're talking about and/or are engaged in fraud. You can draw those conclusions once you've read the existing research and have evidence that fraud is taking place. Until then, lose the accusatory rhetoric.
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Vonnegut at 04:54 AM on 5 February 2014Ocean Acidification Is Fatal To Fish
Well Dikran youre entitled to your opinion. Yes a permanent drop of 15 degrees would affect many creatures, I just dont think a small drop in ph will, thats all.
I thank you for your input so far.
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