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Comments 1 to 50 out of 78:

1. Dikran Marsupial at 01:02 AM on 14 April, 2011
   Daniel Maris has enquired about an interview with Prof. Morner, that appeared in the Telegraph. This is quite a good test of skepticism, as it contains an easily verfied, but clearly false, claim. The article says: 'When asked to act as an "expert reviewer" on the IPCC's last two reports, he was "astonished to find that not one of their 22 contributing authors on sea levels was a sea level specialist: not one".' The relevant chapter is available here, and the second name in the list of contributing authors is Anny Cazenave, who is very obviously a sea level specialist (judging by her CV). She is leading expert in sea level measurements by satellite altimetry, and obviously has a solid background in geophysics. The fact that the Telegraph article is brought up so often just goes to show that some are happy to accept wild claims that suit their position without bothering to check the facts first, even when they are easily verified by a couple of minutes Googling. Morners claims about the IPCC fudging the satelite data are also without foundation, I'll return to them later.
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2. dana1981 at 01:09 AM on 14 April, 2011
   I think this post contains all you need to know about Morner. He is claiming that sea level hasn't risen (in fact that it's dropped) since 1950, which directly contradicts the observational sea level record, and yet Morner and Monckton provide not one shred of evidence that they're right and the observational data is wrong. Unless you count comically rotating the sea level graph, that is!
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3. chrisd3 at 01:15 AM on 14 April, 2011
   Gotta love this comment from page 12:

   Sea level (anomaly in millimetres) is rising at just 1 ft/century: The average rise in sea level over the past 10,000 years was 4 feet/century.

   Of course, "the past 10,000 years" includes a good bit of the post-glacial sea level rise--which was essentially finished by 7,000-odd years ago. So, taking the average over the last 10,000 years very nicely obscures the fact that almost all of that rise occurred in the first ~3,000 years. It's certainly more to Lawd M's liking that this more accurate caption:

   Sea level (anomaly in millimetres) is rising at just 1 ft/century: The average rise in sea level over the past 7,000 years was, well, practically nil.

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4. CompFedUp at 01:16 AM on 14 April, 2011
   I was at EGU2006 and a group of us were "enjoying" Mörner's poster on sea level rise, with his famous tilted graph, much like in this post. We all noticed that all his references were to his own work. As we were all amusing ourselves, the man himself walked up to defend his "work". Basically he ranted that he was the #1 world expert on sea level, and that none of us knew anything. We pretty much just wandered off at that point.
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5. pohjois at 01:21 AM on 14 April, 2011
   @Dikran Few minutes of googling reveals that Jonathan M. Gregory, C. K. Shum are also experts in sea level.
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6. Rob Honeycutt at 01:41 AM on 14 April, 2011
   The sad part is that the popular press gives these people credibility. They are the "controversy" and controversy sells news.
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7. dana1981 at 01:59 AM on 14 April, 2011
   I think we can combine Dikran #1 and pohjois #5 with CompFedUp #4 - apparently Morner thinks he's the only real sea level expert in the world. As I said, even "experts" need data to support their claims. Morner has none.
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8. Dikran Marsupial at 02:56 AM on 14 April, 2011
   @pohjois Yes, I expect many of the others on the list are also sea level specialists, but I stopped looking when I found one that wasn't excluded by Morners apparent objection to modelling rather than observation. Doesn't say much for Christopher Booker as a journalist; the main fault is his for publishing Morner's accusations without checking.
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9. clonmac at 03:04 AM on 14 April, 2011
   Did they seriously rotate the graph to make it look flat? That's just absolutely absurd and how could anyone even remotely think that's OK to do, lol. That's like rotating a company's sales trend graph to make it look like sales are going up, when instead they're going down. haha, wow. All you can do is just laugh.
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10. Dikran Marsupial at 03:05 AM on 14 April, 2011
    @CompFedUp I don't think we should be too hard on Morner, I gather he did make some real contributions early in his career, for instance this paper has 141 citations according to Google Scholar, which suggests it is a pretty good paper. His publication record suggests he was a researcher of international standing in the field a couple of decades ago. His more recent behaviour seems to me an indication of increasing frustration at a subject that has passed him by and he is now out of his depth, in his case probably due to the advent of high performance computing. Us academics should be understanding, it'll happen to us one day as well, and there but for the grace of God go we all! Hopefully when the time comes for me, I'll still have the sense (and self-skepticism) to opt for a quiet retirement. ;o)
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11. John Bruno at 03:07 AM on 14 April, 2011
    You have admit that tilting a graph on its axis to alter the trend line is inventive and gusty, in a bizzaro kind of way. Seriously, where does it say the x-axis has to be horizontal?! :)
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12. Dikran Marsupial at 03:11 AM on 14 April, 2011
    @John Bruno You've been over at Denial Depot haven't you? _{If you haven't, you should! ;o)}
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13. Philippe Chantreau at 03:35 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Oh this is precious! I thought that Beck held the record with his graph that had a break in the x-axis so he could show a cycle where there was none. Compared to this, he could be called timid. Talk about a trick to hide the incline. Where are ths skeptics? Why are they not commenting about this?
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14. dana1981 at 03:41 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Dikran - good point, this "S"PPI report could have come straight out of Denial Depot!
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15. John Bruno at 03:54 AM on 14 April, 2011
    @Dikran Marsupial No I hadn't; I just did. Amazing. I'm am still just beginning to grasp what we are up against. The "blog science" expert beat me to my own joke (although I don't think he was kidding) "Remember to apply your blog science skills and question everything. Question, for example, the conventional "wisdom" that says y-axes must go vertically and x-axes horizonally.Why should time go horizontally and extent go vertically? Remember that actual ice extent is a measure of the horizontal spread of sea ice, so in many respects by making the Y-axis more horizontal I have displayed the data in a more correct manner than so-called "phd scientists" do." and you have got to love this: "QUESTION: does the blue line show that median(?) ice extent has declined by 2 million sq km since 1978? ANSWER: Of course not, and it's quite easy to see if you follow the debate on this matter that only those with a socialist agenda to cap and tax carbon emissions say that it does. For an alternative view, check out Anthony Watts, a non-agenda-driven TV weatherman whose paycheck depends only on the free market. He has written extensively on Arctic ice extent and how the ice extent is increasing year over year and has not changed much at all anyway. Also, George Will of the Washington Post wrote an op-ed earlier this year noting that Arctic ice was not in decline, and if the defensive and shrill attacks he got from the warmist community are any indication, they don't have much to stand on here."
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16. Dikran Marsupial at 04:04 AM on 14 April, 2011
    @John Bruno You really know when you are a denialist when you have used a technique/argument that has been parodied at DenialDepot. Along with SkS (naturally!), real climate and Tamino's blog, DenialDepot ought to be on everybodies Blogroll, it is total genius! BTW, I didn't realise it was a parody when I first saw it as well, which says a lot about some of the genuine skeptic blogs!
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17. Dikran Marsupial at 04:33 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Right, on to the claim about the IPCC fudging the satelite sea level data. Well, the first paper Morner appears to have published on this is this one: Mörner, N.-A., "Estimating future sea level changes from past records", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 40, Issue 1-2, January 2004, Pages 49-54 (www) Figure 2 of that paper gives the "raw" TOPEX/POSEIDON data for 1992-2000 "before any filtering or sliding mean average". Sadly he gives no source for the data giving in this figure in the paper. This was one of the things pointed out by a comment on Morner's paper published by Nerem et al. (Cazenave is one of the "et al."). Nerem, R.S. et al., "Comment on 'Estimating future sea level change from past records' by Nils-Axel Mörner", Global and Planetary Change Volume 55, Issue 4, February 2007, Pages 358-360 (www) Nerem et al say that Morners paper "completely misrepresents the record of sea level change from the TOPEX/Poseidon (T/P) satelite altimetry mission" and explain why that is the case. The first major criticism of Morner's paper is that it doesn't include a single reference to any altimetry study, all of which apparently refute his claim that there is no change in global mean sea level. I checked this, and it is indeed true, there are no references to any paper on TOPEX/Poseidon. Of the 33 references there are, there are however no less than 17 references to his own work. This would have rung warning bells for me had I been a reviewer! Back to Figure 2. Nerem et al. note that Morner gave no source for the data in his figure, but the speculate that it is the original raw release of data, with no corrections made for known problems with the instrument on the satelite. Note this is not about "filtering" or "sliding mean averaging" it is about calibration for known problems. These adjustments are well documented in the journals and Nerem et al give the references. So Morner has used raw data, which are known not to give an accurate indication of actual sea level changes due to calibration issues. Surely if he had researched the issue properly, he would at least have referenced the papers describiing these adjustments, and explained why they were incorrect. But that was obviously not the case. Nerem et al also briefly describe the nature of the adjustments for those who are interested. The story doesn't end there, because Morner wrote a comment on the comment. Mörner, N.-A., "Comment on comment by Nerem et al. (2007) on 'Estimating future sea level changes from past records' by Nils-Axel Mörner (2004)", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 62, Issue 3-4, June 2008, Pages 219-220 (www) He starts of by criticising Nerem et al for not publishing their comment in a timely manner, which is ridiculous there is no "statute of limitations" that means you can get away with being wrong provided nobody notices for a year or two! He also complains that the first he knew of it was when it appeared in print. Surely for consistency, he should have sent his original paper to the TOPEX/Poseidon group for comment before publication - it is a pity that he didn't. Morner does however say where he got the data from, it was from a MEDIAS newsletter, and he obtained his curve was a "redrawing of this graph". This newsletter article is available on-line here, and this is the graph from that article: The caption is as follows "Mean rise in the sea level observed by TOPEX/POSEIDON between October 1992 and April 2000 (about 1 mm/year)" So Morner has redrawn the plot from the newsletter, claiming that it shows no trend, when the caption of the figure in the article clearly states that there is a trend of 1 mm/year and a trendline is clearly depicted on the plot! Does Morner mention that? No, in fact in his comment on the comment, he reiterates that there is no trend in the data. Morner then says the figure reappears later with a greater tilt, and asks why that is. He then answers his own question by saying that the data in his figure include the adjustments described in a paper by Mitchum, but not later adjustments described in several other papers describing later adjustments to the data. He rejects these as being "subjective interpretations", which is about the weakest rebuttal of a criticism I have seen in a journal! So in otherwords, Morner redrew data from a newsletter (rather than actually getting the data and replotting it), ignored the fact that the original caption and diagram explicitly showed a non-zero trend, ignored even the existence of a set of adjustments made to the data due to known issues with the instruments, rejected them as "subjective interpretation" when this was pointed out. Says the "calibrations" (quotes his) are "very strongly debated" without giving a reference to a paper questioning the calibration. Does any of this inspire confidence? I'd say "no". Monckton outght to have checked out his source on this one a bit more carefully.
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    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Links to newsletter updated to used Web Archive as original seems to be no longer available.
18. skywatcher at 04:43 AM on 14 April, 2011
    I'm still busy picking my jaw up off the floor. This wasn't some kind of delayed April Fools joke by the "S"PPI was it? Two of the most entertainingly wrong figures I've seen in a long time, but having seen potholer54's recent series on Monckton's recent efforts, I suppose I should be less surprised. It's terrifying that Monckton, Morner, Booker get away with being able to present such misrepresentations, and good that they are highlighted for what they are as often as possible. Denial Depot is indeed excellent!
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19. dana1981 at 04:51 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Dikran #17 - excellent investigative work. You put in quite a bit of effort there to confirm that Morner and Monckton are full of you-know-what.
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20. Dikran Marsupial at 05:10 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Cheers dana1981, I could remember most of it from my investigation when the Telegraph article first started doing the rounds, the MEDIAS newsletter wasn't available then; now that it is, the story is rather more compelling/damning. The ironic thing is that Morner in his original paper quotes from Gilgamesh "Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression", the context? "Therefore, we have to discard the model output of IPCC (2001) as untenable, not to say impossible (ref to Morner paper and INQUA report)". Page 53, bottom of the second column. But as I said earlier, we shouldn't be too hard on Morner, I think he sincerely believes what he writes, even though it is objectively false.
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21. Dikran Marsupial at 05:20 AM on 14 April, 2011
    BTW, the criticism that the IPCC don't have expertise in sea level, and that they have been making adjustments to get the result they wanted is made not-so subtly in Figure 4 of his original paper (see the rightmost branch of the flow chart. Note particularly the feedback from the output of the "IPCC Global Warming Scenario" box (also contains the text "lacking specialisation in sea level research"!) back to the "present trend input data" box. With that, the number of self-citations and the Gilgamesh quote (pretentious - moi?), I am amazed the paper was published in a journal (other than E&E)
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22. dana1981 at 05:33 AM on 14 April, 2011

    "I think he sincerely believes what he writes, even though it is objectively false."

    I think you could say that about a lot of the "skeptic" scientists, like Christy and Spencer, for example. Although Morner is certainly much more objectively wrong than the former two.
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23. Dikran Marsupial at 05:36 AM on 14 April, 2011
    dana1981 I would certainly agree there, the most important form of skepticism is self-skepticism. Once you lose that as a scientist, you are in real trouble. My motto is "Familiarity breeds contempt - and nobody is more familiar with my own work than I am!" ;o)
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24. adrian smits at 06:08 AM on 14 April, 2011
    First 12 inches per century doesn't seem very threatening.Second 20% of that rise is caused by irrigation from aquifers which won't last that much longer so the actual rise is somewhere between 9 and 10 inches at most.this is from your own ippc graph at the top of the page. Third this rise will probably be much less than that based on the last 9 or ten years especially if it cools for the next 15 or 20 years. So we come to 5 or 6 inches per century and I'm supposed to worry puleeeeeese!
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25. TOP at 06:28 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Interesting discussion of Artic Sea Level rise here. It raises the question as to what sea level means.
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26. dana1981 at 07:15 AM on 14 April, 2011
    adrian #24 - try in the ballpark of 1 meter sea level rise by 2100. Just because the IPCC AR4 didn't include melting land ice doesn't mean it won't melt - in fact it already is.
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27. David Horton at 07:27 AM on 14 April, 2011
    "It boggles the mind that Monckton and the "S"PPI think they can convince people that sea level has dropped since 1950" - it, and similar approaches have worked well for over ten years now.
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28. WheelsOC at 07:56 AM on 14 April, 2011
    I have to second a previous question: did this report come out on April 1st?
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29. adelady at 08:04 AM on 14 April, 2011
    adrian, when you read the IPCC carefully you will notice that they _explicitly_ exclude any contribution from melting ice sheets. Not because they think it's a bad idea, or it's not happening, or it can't be measured. It's excluded because of the IPCC's role. To report on the science as published up to a point in time. At the time of collecting and evaluating available papers, there was too little explicit calculation and attribution of the amount or the rate of rise attributable to melt - let alone projections of expected rise due to melt. That situation won't apply for the next round. Don't say you weren't warned if there are big differences between the next and the previous IPCC reports.
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30. daniel maris at 08:07 AM on 14 April, 2011
    It seems that Prof Morner isn't safe from ad hominem attacks. I suggest people take a look at this site: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/03/19/despite-popular-opinion-and-calls-to-action-the-maldives-is-not-being-overrun-by-sea-level-rise/ You'll see some very interesting photos there which suggest that the alleged sea level rise in the Maldives is really pure fiction. There is also some very relevant criticism of tide guage measurement. Interesting to see the rickety structures - there's only one way they are going and that is down!
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    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Just for clarification, there has been precisely one ad-hominem against Morner posted on this thread, and it has been deleted by a moderator (not me as I am actively involved in the discussion) because it contained an ad-hominem. So it would seem Prof. Morner is quite safe from ad-hominem attacks here, provided you give the moderators time to do their jobs.
31. adelady at 08:09 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Wheels, apparently not. I've now concluded that I should read DenialDepot not just for fun. We all should see it as a sign of what we might expect to see in certain publications. If graph-tilting or axis-fudging is not already out there, it will be one day.
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32. Daniel Bailey at 08:13 AM on 14 April, 2011
    @ daniel maris Citing disinformation blogs does little for your credibility and explains much.
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33. Albatross at 08:14 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel, Be a true skeptic please--do not believe everything you read and see at WUWT, or take it at face value. There is much fiction touted as fact on that pseudo science blog. Are you now too denying that global sea levels have risen?
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34. Dikran Marsupial at 08:33 AM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel Maris@30 Would you accept then that the Telegraph article that you raised on another thread has been refuted by the evidence I have presented in this thread, which show the allegations made by Morner are completely without foundation? I ask because a common trait of deniers is to avoid explicitly acknowledging when one line of argument is refuted (so they can return to it later or elsewhere) and simply pick a new line of evidence? What you have just done looks very much like exactly that, so maybe you would like to dispel that impression. Secondly, have you investigated the WUWT story to find out whether it checks out, or whether like the Telegraph article it is full of bogus claims?
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35. WSteven at 09:34 AM on 14 April, 2011
    I love the tilted graph. I'd expect that kind of nonsense from someone in junior high or _maybe_ senior high school. How can anybody who does this be considered a credible source of information? Good article, Dana.
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36. Bern at 10:41 AM on 14 April, 2011
    WSteven: I know education standards are often considered to be slipping, but I'd hope that anyone who tried that trick even in junior high would be slapped down with a big fat 'F'... It puts me in mind of that famous quote popularised by Adam Savage from Mythbusters: "I reject your reality, and substitute my own."
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    Moderator Response: [DB] Then you'll like this reality.
37. daniel maris at 11:56 AM on 14 April, 2011
    So you're saying the photographic evidence is falsified? Or misrepresented? And you're saying those tidal gauges can measure increases measured in millimetres? C'm on!
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38. Albatross at 12:03 PM on 14 April, 2011
    daniel @37, Who are you addressing? And Watts has a sturdy reputation for misrepresenting facts and the sicence, anyone paying close attention and being truly critical would know that is a fact. For the life of me I cannot believe how anyone having an iota of credibility and scruples (and who has been paying attention to the solid refutations of Monckton) could defend the shenanigans of Monckton and Morner.
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39. Rob Honeycutt at 12:06 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel @ 37... Have you tried reading the relevant science on this topic rather that just reading WUWT? Just a thought.
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40. Bernard J. at 14:04 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Heh, DM found Dr Inferno's ground-breaking technique before I could refer to it. Of course, in spite of such genius he, and the rest of you, are all wrong. Sea level has always been, and always will be, 0 mm/ft above sea level.
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41. Dikran Marsupial at 18:11 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel Maris@37 The fact that you have not commented on the Telegraph article that you introduced to the discussion is noted. As I pointed out, that is the behaviour of a denialist, if that is how you want to portray yourself, that is your choice. You also haven't answered the question about whether you have checked the WUWT story out to find out if it is correct or not. Have you checked the photograph depicts what it is claimed to predict? Have you checked the veracity of the tide guages? You do realise that you can't measure global sea level change using a single location, don't you?
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42. Riccardo at 18:45 PM on 14 April, 2011
    How can even ultra-skeptics still oppose "photographic evidence" to real science after the debacle of the surfacestation project?
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43. bill4344 at 19:42 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Gee, that WUWT 'photographic evidence' is, um, compelling. On the strength of those happy-snaps from the Maldives (and 4 - count them, Warmists, 4! - pics of tide gauges) the entire planet can breathe free! I wonder what Daniel Maris would make of his sort of chart? (Speaking of Watts; should we await the Tidal Stations Project with bated breath?)
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    Moderator Response: [DB] Fixed & hyperlinked chart link.
44. bill4344 at 19:46 PM on 14 April, 2011
    D'oh - make that this sort of chart! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NOAA_sea_level_trend_1993_2010.png
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45. Lars Rosenberg at 20:49 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Nils-Axel Mörner's father, Stellan Mörner, was a wellknow swedish surrrealist painter, about whom he has written: "My dad's relation to his art is identical to my relation to my science." That quote may explain some of his inventiveness.
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46. Dikran Marsupial at 21:50 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel Maris I am going to give you a hand checking up on the WUWT story regarding Morners assertions about sea level rise in the maldives. Please have a look at the following papers (which refute Morners position): John A. Church, Neil J. Whitea and John R. Hunter, "Sea-level rise at tropical Pacific and Indian Ocean islands", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 53, Issue 3, September 2006, Pages 155-168 www, pdf) Philip L. Woodworth, "Have there been large recent sea level changes in the Maldive Islands?", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 49, Issues 1-2, November 2005, Pages 1-18 (www) Colin D. Woodroffe, "Late Quaternary sea-level highstands in the central and eastern Indian Ocean: A review", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 49, Issues 1-2, November 2005, Pages 121-138 (www) but start with Paul S. Kench, Scott L. Nichol and Roger F. McLean, "Comment on 'New perspectives for the future of the Maldives' by Mörner, N.A., et al. [Global Planet. Change 40 (2004), 177–182], Global and Planetary Change, Volume 47, Issue 1, May 2005, Pages 67-69 (www) as this is a peer-reviewed comment on Morners original work on the Maldives (the details of that paper are in the title). Morner's response is here: Nils-Axel Mörner and Michael Tooley, "Reply to the comment of P.S. Kench et al. on 'New perspectives for the future of the Maldives' by N.A. Morner et al. [Global Planet. Change 40 (2004), 177–182]", Global and Planetary Change, Volume 47, Issue 1, May 2005, Pages 70-71 (www). Does the WUWT article mention any of this? If not, why do you think that is? Now I have done enough of your homework for you, it is now up to you to locate those articles (Google Scholar is your friend), read them, and then come back here and either agree that Morner is wrong about the Maldives, or give a cogent scientific defence of his claims. I predict neither of those things will occur - go on, prove me wrong! ;o)
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47. daniel maris at 22:17 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Dikran, I am a little suspicious of your approach - it seems like reverse trolling. Presumably you have read these papers that you recommend I take the time to read, although I have never claimed to be trained in this area. Presumably you could sum things up pretty pithily. Presumably you could say some specific things like "That tree in Morner's photograph is no evidence because..." But you choose not to. Instead you send me off to read hundreds of pages of scientific analysis. My view of the subject is based on (1) Knowing that any effects of sea level rise in the south of the UK (which in any case is sinking) have been manageable (2) As far as I know, no one has been able to point to an island in a stable area (i.e. not an area where the land is sinking or in a delta) that has gone under water in the last 100 years. I'd be interested to hear if anyone claims there is one. (3) Dire consequences in the Maldives and elsewhere are always being predicted but never seem to happen. (4) There are clearly significant numbers of scientists who don't agree with the consensus. (5) The consensus is not the same as the extreme rises forecast by some people here - who are therefore just as guilty as denialists in ignoring scientific evidence. I've never claimed to be able to take part in a peer review of papers in this subject area. But I do think we can see given such statements as the IPCC Chair's claim about glaciers melting that there is a good degree of misinformation floating about. Bill - What do I make of the chart? Well I said I am not competent to make sense of it, but if it's real sea level as opposed to sea level in relation to land level, then I am frankly puzzled by it, since large parts of the ocean appear to be experiencing a reduction in sea level (quite substantial - 4.5 MM Pa). That makes me think there's something wrong with the measurements, or, alternatively, the measurements as a whole are not indicative of the volume of oceanic water. I presume it is the volume (or even better tonnage AND volume) of oceanic water that we are really interested in, rather than anything else.
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    Moderator Response: [DB] Feed a man a fish and he won't be hungry - for a while. Teach a man to fish and he will never be hungry again. So take the coins of your pocket and invest them in your mind so your mind can then line your pockets with gold. Move beyond the mothers milk to real food. Dikran & Bill have given you all you need to answer your questions for yourself.
48. Dikran Marsupial at 22:36 PM on 14 April, 2011
    Daniel Maris Yes I have read these papers, but a long time ago now. I read them when I first ran into Morner's work, it is what is called "skepticism" as opposed to "denial", which means not taking things as face value, but checking up on the facts to find out if the assertions are reasonable. You appear not to bother with that. If you think pointing out relevant papers and pointing out errors is "reverse trolling", then I have to tell you "reverse trolling" is an important part of science. Almost all papers have a sections called "references" which gives pointers to other relevant work, and where a paper argues with some existing theory or result, the errors in the previous work are pointed out in the introductory sections. Sure I could just point out some errors in the Maldives issue for you but what good would that do. I gave a detailed analysis of the false claims in the Telegraph article, but what good did that do? Have you agreed that the claims in the Telegraph artcile are false? No. Have you defended them? No. Why should I expect you to respond any differently in this case? The price of having an informed opinion on these matters is the willingness to go to the sources and sift through the facts for yourself. If you can't do that, then take on board what is said by those that do. The fact you still are unwilling to talk about the Telegraph, howevrer suggests that you are a denialist and not actually interested in the truth. Until you comment on what I have written about the Telegraph article and whether you still accept the claims made by Morner in it, I am going to assume that any further posts are just trolling. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is your actions that have brought it on yourself.
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49. Dennis at 23:04 PM on 14 April, 2011
    "Instead you send me off to read hundreds of pages of scientific analysis." This is how science works, Daniel. Those who choose to present scientific "findings" (such as the WUWT writers) and do not do that have no standing to criticise those who do. Those who do not have the skills or time (and I include myself in this group) to perform such analyses should respect the research of those who have.
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50. poptart at 23:44 PM on 14 April, 2011
    I believe Lord Monckton is a "peer". Therefore, anything he peruses is "peer reviewed".With that in mind, I bet we can get poptech's list up to 1000!
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