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swampfoxh at 23:55 PM on 7 December 2021Solar and crop production research shows ‘multi-solving’ climate benefits
I wasn't sure where to start with the above essay, so much of it is grasping for straws. 0.6% of the land necessary to erect solar power grids, then employed for the reasons listed, is itself a discussion about nothing at all. We would be better off just planting trees on an equivalent area on the other side of town, or converting cattle grazing land to riparian. As far as raising rabbit goes, current nutritional science has proven that eating rabbit is equivalent to eating rats, insofar as nutrient values are concerned. There are no nutrient values in rabbit meat...not for humans. Regarding bee habits, we beekeepers know that bees enjoy sunshine and love the floodplain of rivers as forage areas, although they will harvest the nectar of flowering trees, especially tulipfera species which cannot grow under a solar panel. My apologies, I could go on about several other points made in this post, but my essay is long enough as it is. ...someone else's turn.
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nigelj at 11:33 AM on 7 December 20212021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #49
Don't let radical environmentalists decide what electricity generation gets built, because nothing would get built. Solar power looks relatively benign environmentally. Wind turbines are more problematic because of the big visual footprint on hills that some people dont like, and they kill insects and some birds, lets not pretend otherwise. The solution is really to locate them offshore, something central governmnet should require by law, maybe 50% offshore and gradually increased from there.
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:09 AM on 7 December 2021Book Review: Saving Us by Katharine Hayhoe
UniteHumankind @6,
I understand the intention, but yes, it is very silly. To have any validity, a poll must be taken on a representative sample. Many precautions enter in the rather complex selection process that allows for a representative sample. In your case, not only that is not the case, but you are even down to attempt overcoming a manipulation of the poll with a counter-manipulation maneuver. What validity can the poll have? Close enough to zero to be negligible.
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swampfoxh at 01:10 AM on 7 December 20212021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #49
It would be best if radical environmentalists had the final say on site selection, since they have no monetary or political axe to grind. We are happy with eliminating as much fossil fuel usage as possible, but not happy with collateral damage to the environment from insensitive projects.
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swampfoxh at 01:02 AM on 7 December 20212021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #49
We should not lose sight of appropriateness in site selection...and we are. In the rush to renewables, many proposed sites are moneymakers but are deleterious to the environment. Here in Rockbridge/Bottetot County, a wind turbine site proposal has 100% opposition from area radical environmentalists.
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One Planet Only Forever at 13:02 PM on 6 December 2021Can genetically engineered seeds prevent a climate-driven food crisis?
John Hartz @2,
Thanks for pointing out the article.
It is an interesting perspective on the well established understanding that has been written about in different ways by many different people in recent years. It alings with the understanding shared by Gaya Herrington after she revisited, and performed an update on, the "The Limits to Growth" study published by the Club of Rome in 1972 (one article about this is The Guardian reporting on her study).
An important understanding is that Over-population is not the real problem. And the population problem is undeniably being more effectively addressed than the climate change problem.
The real problem is harmful over-consumptive ways of living that some humans have developed a liking for. And those harmful over-consumers provide harmful unsustainable examples that others can be tempted to aspire to develop to match or exceed.
There are many sources of information to help people improve their understanding that Total Population is being address and that the harmful over-consumption problem fails to be effectively addressed. People who claim to be concerned just need to act on that concern and become better educated. But it is undeniably difficult to get people to learn something that contradicts their developed preferences or that contradicts something they want to claim to excuse not understanding the real problem. Proof of that difficulty is the lack of effective actions to limit harmful over-consumptive ways of living like the ways of living that cause the growing climate change problem and people continuing to claim that "over-population is the problem".
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Eclectic at 11:40 AM on 6 December 2021Sea level rise predictions are exaggerated
Thank you, BaerbelW.
The new Potholer54 video has aready scored 60,000 views in approx 24 hours.
Entertaining and informative - typical for Potholer54.
I particularly benefited from his relating the development of the "Hansen Prediction" myth about New York being submerged by 2018 (or earlier).
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UniteHumankind at 01:05 AM on 6 December 2021Book Review: Saving Us by Katharine Hayhoe
Hello everyone! I could not figure out how to post a general message to the group so I am hoping this will work. I started a poll on LinkedIn regarding climate change and cause where initially the majority had chosen Climate change occuring, human caused however some deniers have statred sharing my post to their network to get more votes. Now I know this is super silly but would appreciate anyone's support. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/garthovermyer_activity-6871992734962520065-p8MG
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michael sweet at 23:37 PM on 5 December 20212021 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #49
The Guardian has an article that says the International Energy Agency, IEA, projects that 95% of new electricity generating capacity worldwide from today to 2026 will be renewable energy.
Renewable energy is being built out because it is now cheaper than fossil fuels almost everywhere. This winter coal, gas and oil have increased greatly in price while renewable energy has only increased a little. Hopefully businesses will increase installation of renewable energy to save money. It will help with the climate issue. Every kilowatt generated by renewables is less generated by fossil fuels.
Another article stated that one of the primary bottlenecks for wind energy was obtaining permits to build. Governments can speed up the permitting process to increase renewable energy.
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BaerbelW at 21:26 PM on 5 December 2021Sea level rise predictions are exaggerated
Peter Hadfield has a new video out on his potholer54 YouTube channel which is now also mentioned in the further viewing section above.
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BaerbelW at 21:24 PM on 5 December 2021Sea level rise is exaggerated
Peter Hadfield has a new video out on his potholer54 YouTube channel which is now also mentioned in the further viewing section above.
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nigelj at 07:41 AM on 5 December 2021Gerrymandering is a climate problem
Swampfox. Your assertions are simply not correct. Numerous polling studies (eg Pew Research) find huge difference on climate issues between republicans and democrats, where republicans are generally more sceptical than democrats about the science, carbon taxes, and wind and solar power (although the gap is smaller for wind and solar power). A simple google search found Democrats far more likely to buy EVs than Republicans. It shouldn't be like this, but it is like this.
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what should we do at 06:57 AM on 5 December 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
Unfortunately, there isn't so much information in this post as there is social reinforcement--it goes back to the old trope of the crazy uncle and serves to encourage thinking the other side is stupid.
I also notice that certain supporting information like that the pentagon takes climeat science seriously neglects to mention that all, that is all, of their predictions about climate were wrong. The Climate Discussion Nexus offers a lot of actual, real information without so much "snide." This one is about the Pentagon predictions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj83l0mcWUY
We should be focused on the actual pace of change and its effects as well as what to do about it, not scoring points on who was right or wrong all along. This video needs to be posted so it's clear this article is not a font of scientific accuracy, but what we need to do is focus on reasonable action.
This article fails in that way and can only serve as candy for true believers.
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One Planet Only Forever at 03:16 AM on 5 December 2021Gerrymandering is a climate problem
Swampfoxh,
It is possible to understand that "What is needed is not support of a political constituency, rather the declarations and positive actions of dictators who, from scientists, know what has to be done." is a misled belief.
Any type of leadership will work. The commonsense requirements is that the leadership (winners) all pursue increased awareness and improved understanding of what is harmful and aggressively act to rapidly end the harmful activity in "the least harmful way", with the political differences being different perspectives that create a diversity of effective ways to rapidly end the harm being done. An important understanding is that "perceptions of harm done by the ending of harmful activity" need to be restricted to concerns to ensure that everybody live at least a basic decent life - No Poverty. It is important to understand that it is not harmful for supposedly superior people to become less superior because harmful activity they benefited from is ended.
The key is to end the nonsense belief that any developed perceptions of prosperity deserve to be maintained as the harmful activity is ended. That legacy argument that excuses incredibly harmful things like oil extraction in California to continue because it "was initially permitted and therefore is grandfathered into being allowed to continue" has to be scrubbed from the system.
Sustainable activity by all of humanity is the only starting point that can be constantly continued or improved on by the development of better "also sustainable harmless" alternatives. Humanity has millions of years to enjoy this planet, so the accumulated impact of actions of each generation have to be essentially harmless.
The challenge of today is "getting to the starting point of all of humanity living sustainably, all people living decently, no harmful poverty". That means everyone learning and pursuing living in ways that are not harmful to others or the environment of the planet that is essential to all future life on this planet (a key point being the understanding that technology can be helpful, but is not essential to life). And the "wealthy and powerful" need to be required to be leaders of the correction of what has developed. The alternatives to that responsible leadership are ultimately disastrous for humanity.
The problem is the small portion of humanity who develop a liking for benefiting from being harmful. That small group have been in control of much of humanity since the earliest days. The evidence is growing that the growth of that type of "controlling people" has always been a harmful growing problem. It has now grown past the point of being able to be ignored or excused. And a growing number of people are realizing that ... including the gerrymandering types using their powers to prolong their ability to be harmful Winners who are just like the harmful dictators and populist pursuers of power.
Something has to be done. Hopefully it will be the Winning by responsible thoughtful people. The alternative is a growing disaster in the making. (btw, the likes of Trump owning a Tesla as one of their personal vehicles obviously does not represent their overall actions and impacts).
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swampfoxh at 00:29 AM on 5 December 2021Gerrymandering is a climate problem
There is clearly no connection between sensible, practical and necessary methods to remedy human behavior in seeking solutions to climate and environmental problems, based on political affiliation or the assumed leverage of a majority constituency. People and groups working proactively on climate are doing so with no regard to their own political party affiliations. If Democrats were really better at this work than Republicans, progress would be significant because the Yale study back in 2012 showed that more people identifying as Democrats were delivering support to reducing fossil fuel consumption, but it's Republicans whom are buying the electric cars. What is needed is not support of a political constituency, rather the declarations and positive actions of dictators who, from scientists, know what has to be done. Consequently, nothing will be done. Humans are an outlaw species on planet Earth and will just have to try and pick up the pieces after the coming extinction event runs its course.
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BaerbelW at 15:27 PM on 3 December 2021FLOATER: A Tool-Kit for evaluating Claims
@Nigel - your comment reminded me to delete my name from the author list. It was only in there because I copied the article over from Melanie's Thinking is Power website and forgot to take it out after it went live on SkS on Wednesday. So, credit for this FLOATER article - and all the other of her reposted articles - needs to go to Melanie.
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nigelj at 12:29 PM on 3 December 2021FLOATER: A Tool-Kit for evaluating Claims
Hang in there BaerbelW. Such things may be difficult to teach, but I think they are extremely important to teach. And I think your approach looks good. When I was about 15 years old or so I stumbled across a simple to read book about logical fallacies / critical thinking and it made an impression on me and has helped me discern fact from fiction. I'm so glad I read it. I still get trapped sometimes, but less so than some people.
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One Planet Only Forever at 07:22 AM on 2 December 2021Climate-conscious conservatives try to make their voices heard
swampfoxh,
I have a different perspective regarding current politics.
The real problem has little to do with political identity. It has a lot to do with the "identities being developed by political groups".
My two categories to put people into are:
1. People willing to increase their awareness and understanding of what is going on and learn what is harmful and how they can be less harmful and more helpful to others, including their impacts on the environment beyond their "socioeconomic political environment of the moment".
2. People who have developed beliefs that they desire to protect against the changes that could come from increased awareness and improved understanding of what is "harmful to the future of humanity" and how to be less harmful and more helpful.
There could be a third category of people who are simply unaware. But every member of that group that gets introduced to new thoughts becomes either Group 1 or Group 2 based on their response at that moment. Do they pursue learning to be less harmful and more helpful or resist it?
People who enjoy perceptions of superiority relative to others, and people who want to be "superior" like them, can be understood to be highly motivated to resist learning in the current socioeconomic political environment that has developed a lot of perceptions of superiority built on harmful unsustainable actions.
The lack of interest in learning that the ways a person obtains benefit and perceptions of superiority are unacceptable, especially if it is learned that their ancestors developed the "life style they were born into" through harmful actions meaning that they owe a debt of "systemic change and other compensation" to many of those Others who they consider to be "deserving to be less superior". That is almost an eternal human problem, the victors making up harmfully unjustified justifications for their developed perceptions of Superiority relative to Other people (or other life).
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nigelj at 06:23 AM on 2 December 2021Can genetically engineered seeds prevent a climate-driven food crisis?
Perhaps this website could do an article on population related to the climate issue and other environmetal issues. However I suggest we know what the viable solutions are: Namely better education, better womens rights, the demographic transition, contraception etc. Most countries are addressing those sorts of things. Some are not doing this so much, often due to religious factors, and short of preaching about it its not clear what more we can do. They are sovereign nations. Its why I think we have to mostly promote renewables and lower consumption etc.
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nigelj at 06:16 AM on 2 December 2021Climate-conscious conservatives try to make their voices heard
Swampfox @1 & 2. You are right about that. Generally the way systems work in western democracies is you get a progessive reforming governmnet doing its thing for a few years and then a conservative governments gets elected, then back to a progressive governmnet in a cycle. And generally the conservative leaning governments have kept in place many of the progressive reforms, maybe cancelled some of the crazier ones. Its kind of worked ok. You had a consensus between conservatives and progessives over plenty of the important things,
Occasionally you get a governmnet with an excellent balance of reform and restriant but that seems to be rare. Its more often a cyclcial progression of left and right leaning governmnets.
IMHO the problem is in recent years newly elected conservative governmnets have been cancelling every policy of progressive governments they possibly can, and often it seems just out of spite and hatred. Theres often very little logic to what they do. Its become extremely tribal in America. I dont know how that gets fixed. Biden is trying but also faltering.
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swampfoxh at 04:42 AM on 2 December 2021Climate-conscious conservatives try to make their voices heard
Democrats, on the other hand, are revisionists. They see improvement is always possible. It is often said that Democrats might maintain a point of view reflected in the lyric in Johnny Cash's "Man in Black","...that things will never be right, I know...". Progressives are a group of generic Democrats that have named themselves "Progressives", and are often willing to make changes in most social, economic and political (even religious) systems with no special regard for the suitability of those changes...or even the need for change at all.
Between the two groups, the Republicans and the Democrats? The trick might be to find a way to satisfy the "longing to change things with the longing to leave things the way they are." But, finding that trick? I've not the slighest idea.
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swampfoxh at 20:33 PM on 1 December 2021Climate-conscious conservatives try to make their voices heard
Republicans shun the climate problem because they resist collectivist action. At bottom, Republicans believe "Man is and end in himself, not a means to the ends of others". Any human action that smacks of collectivism, like socialism, communism or fascism will always be rejected by people who identify as Republicans (generally). Republicans and their "individualism" can participate in fixing the climate problem if they don't feel like they are going to be swept away to a government gulag by Marxist/collectivist style coercion. People who identify as Democrats are always ready to manipulate the social fabric, whether it needs fixing or not. Republicans fear change. That's why there are often called Conservatives.
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Wol at 09:57 AM on 1 December 2021Can genetically engineered seeds prevent a climate-driven food crisis?
swampfox: I couldn't agree more.
Comment on overpopulation brings forth instant abuse on most comments' columns - usually snidely asking whether the writer should be the first to drink the koolaid. ie. punishing the messenger.
But it's hard to fathom why it appears taboo across the board when its OBVIOUSLY the fundamental problem.
Not saying there's a solution apart from war, famine, flood and drought. Most of these are well under way without any deliberate "solutions".
You can feel it.
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Highvoltage at 07:56 AM on 1 December 2021Sea level rise is decelerating
Discussing sea level and global warming to appreciate fg. the trends one should study the whole process in historical time line:
http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaciers-and-climate/sea-level-rise-2/sea-level-rise/
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John Hartz at 07:38 AM on 1 December 2021Can genetically engineered seeds prevent a climate-driven food crisis?
swampfoxh:
Shortly after reqading your comment, I came across the following op-ed about the future of homo sapiens.
Humans Are Doomed to Go Extinct, Opinion by Henry Gee, Nature, Nov 30, 2021
The lede for this article: Habitat degradation, low genetic variation and declining fertility are setting Homo sapiens up for collapse.
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Highvoltage at 07:05 AM on 1 December 2021How much has nuclear testing contributed to global warming?
The contribution of nuclear testing to global warming should be analyzed not by the total energy released by nuclear explosions wich is of course negligible over the earth surface but rather by the impact of radioactive radiation lasting for decades in the strata especially in the ozone layer wich has a very destructive and complex effect. Please see new study here:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211013174023.htm -
swampfoxh at 23:52 PM on 30 November 2021Can genetically engineered seeds prevent a climate-driven food crisis?
According to a recent chat on this site, 80 million more people were added to the planet in the past 365 days. Thus, yesterday, 218,800 more new people are walking the Earth, than on the day before yesterday... and another 218,800 will be added today. Not only are these carbon footprints being added to the GGE problem but each of these are consumption and destruction machines acting against a variety of ecological benefits (clean water, reforestation, carbon sequestration, AMOCs, LUCs, cryosphere change, etc.) Who will come forth to author an expansive essay, similar to the one above, that will remedy the population of humans problem and do so as comprehensively as the above essay has for seeds?
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BaerbelW at 04:49 AM on 27 November 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
Three years ago I published a blog post sharing my thoughts about Discussing climate change on the net which might come in handy.
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robinp1k2 at 01:26 AM on 27 November 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
Nigel - Ha! Yes, believe me, it is very frustrating for me when there's an Uncle Pete around. I did enjoy reading your post! Thank you.
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nigelj at 06:17 AM on 26 November 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
Robin, I agree there is no point ruining a family gathering by debating climate change with Uncle Pete, and its best to change the subject. Although I find it takes me an effort of will to do this. I was silently thinking stick a sock in his mouth and sit him in a corner of the room and shove a bottle of whisky in his hand to keep him amused. I know we cant really do this but it was an interesting, satisfying thought.
However what do we do when uncle Pete appears on websites like this? This is more perplexing because he (or she) can sway impressionable people following the discussion that are mildly sceptical. There seems to be a school of thought that says ignore Uncle Petes when they rear their ugly heads in public forums. Engaging with them draws attention to them so its thought. Pretend they don't exist. In my observation climate scientists have mostly done this (this website excepted) but this strategy has obviously not stopped Uncle Pete causing havoc.
Personally I think its better to rebut their claims but without getting too much into an extended one on one debate. If possible dont even use their name. You are really not trying to convince or inform Uncle Pete, but other people involved in the discussion or reading it.
Some people directly engage Uncle Pete partly just to ridicule them and for entertainment. I confess I've sometimes done this myself. But this is a risky strategy because it can alienate people who dont like such harsh treatment and stong language.
Uncle Petes are very frustrating. I wish they would just STFU.
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robinp1k2 at 00:25 AM on 26 November 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
Typo correction: my local paper is the "Daily Inter Lake"
Editorial reference if you are interested:
https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2021/nov/25/community-making-difference-and-creating-change/
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robinp1k2 at 00:15 AM on 26 November 2021Thanksgiving advice, 2021: How to deal with climate change-denying Uncle Pete
This article has great information but as far as Uncle Pete goes, smile, nod, and quickly change the topic. According to the Yale program on Climate Communicatio, only 8% of Americans are "Uncle Petes". Nothing can change their mind so save yourself the frustration and keep your gathering pleasant.
https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/global-warmings-six-americas-a-review/
Instead be thankful for the 92% of people you can work with to learn about climate change and get going on implementing solutions.Here's a quote from an editorial in my local paper, The Dai Inter Lake, published today (Thanksgiving 2021):
"When we say our blessings at Thanksgiving dinner this year, may our thoughts be for the greater good and our words be carefully parsed for a community and, for that matter, a world that so desperately needs our love, and may the gratitude in our hearts shine toward finding solutions … and being part of them."
Happy Thanksgiving!
Robin
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MA Rodger at 21:21 PM on 25 November 2021Global CO2 emissions have been flat for a decade, new data reveals
pattimer @1,
The Global Carbon Project correction to FF+LUC anthropogenic CO2 emissions over the last decade is actually very minor. I compared the before-&-after numbers when first published and for that period (from memory) OLS showed they changed from +75Mt(C)/yr to +25Mt(C)/yr. (The increase in emissions had been running at about +200Mt/yr through the preceding two decades.) So an already quite-flat emissions rate through the last decade is revised somewhat more flat. Given the wobbles in the draw-down of emissions our into the biosphere, the calculation of Af is a long-term thing. (It averages 44.3% 1959-2020 with a 2sd variation of +/-25.9%.) So the impact of the adjustment on Af is insignificant. For 2019 the single year figure previously 48.7% becomes 49.1%.
Af will get interesting when we get round to reducing our collective CO2 emissions. The draw-down of CO2 is not a single-year-emissions thing as suggested by the Af but the draw-down of our accumulated CO2 emissions over the decades (& eventually centuries). Thus the 2.99Gt(C) ocean draw-down and 2.92Gt(C) biosphere draw-down estimated by GCP for 2020 would hardily have budged if we had halved emissions in 2020. But if emissions had halved from 10.38Gt(C) to to 5.19Gt(C), the atmospheric levels would have dropped and Af would have turned negative.
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Daniel Bailey at 10:24 AM on 25 November 2021Global CO2 emissions have been flat for a decade, new data reveals
Ian, the atmospheric fraction of CO2 remaining after sinks do their thing has held steady at 45% for a very long time. See Friedlingstein et al 2021 for details.
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Ian Forrester at 05:59 AM on 25 November 2021Global CO2 emissions have been flat for a decade, new data reveals
I had been thinking the same thing. Using data from wood for trees the rise in CO2 during the period 2000 to 2010 is 2.04 ppm /year. The rise from 2010 to present is 2.45 ppm /year, an increase of 20%. Why the discrepancy with the data on CO2 released from burning of fossil fuels?
There are a number of possible reasons. Firstly, the countries may be fudging their CO2 figures. Secondly, another source of CO2 is becoming significant e.g. CO2 from forest fires or melting permafrost. Thirdly, sinks are losing their effectiveness in removing CO2 from the atmosphere.
Any comments?
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pattimer at 22:07 PM on 24 November 2021Global CO2 emissions have been flat for a decade, new data reveals
Interesting article. And hello everyone at Skeptical Science. It's been a long time since I have been in touch.
However
I have a question.
If CO2 emissions have been less than previously thought in the past from fossil fuels and land emissions but the atmospheric CO2 is increasing just precisely as we measure it then does this not mean that very worryingly the air borne fraction must be increasing. If so positive carbon feedbacks are coming earlier than we feared? OR Have I missed something?
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John Hartz at 10:02 AM on 24 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
Recommended supplementary reading:
Climate Pledges Still Not Enough to Keep Warming Below 2-Degree Limit
Current national targets to cut emissions could result in nearly 3 degrees C of warming
by Chelsea Harvey, E&E News/Scientific American, Nov 23, 2021
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AussiejB at 15:29 PM on 23 November 2021How will carbon pricing impact inflation?
We are are in a situation where evidence points to having to change our old ways.
We are no longer in the 1880's where advancement of society depending on using Fossil Fuels.
We are beyond that and now yes it would be equitable to help those in society who may be effected.
However as the article points out those in the lower income level actually benifit with lower energy prices useing Renewable Energy.
What is not to like?
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nigelj at 07:06 AM on 19 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
Thank's plincoln24. The En-ROADS simulator is very useful. I have seen it before. Heres the link to it.
But notice it doesn't just allow variables like emissions and types of energy source to be altered. It also allows population and economic growth to be altered. Its in effect a practical application of I = PAT that I posted above.
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plincoln24 at 18:29 PM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
Comment number 5 is the most useful comment. In some population will always be the cause of every environmental problem. You can't get around that. But there exists ways where people can shift to sustainable living given the current population size. You can see this in En-ROADS for example https://en-roads.climateinteractive.org/scenario.html?v=21.11.0 . If you like you can do a search in YouTube for an explanation of how to use En-ROADS (a world economy and climate model developed by MIT). The UN projections in En-ROADS show that the most likely population projection is one that peaks midcentury and begins to fall.
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One Planet Only Forever at 14:22 PM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
WOL,
There are reports indicating that total population levels of 12 Billion could live decently, but admittedly without people living in the ways that the wealthier people do today. But it would undeniably be easier for all humans to live as sustainable parts of the robust diversity of life on this planet if there are fewer humans.
The population challenge has a solution that is being worked on and can be improved. The report in The Lancet indicates a total global population of under 7 Billion by 2100 (lower than the current total population) if the SGDs are achieved. Acknowledging that the SDGs are the solution is essential. By all means provide legitimate improvements of any specific aspect of the SDGs or of the understanding presented in the 2020 Human Development Report. Better is Better.
And aligned with nigelj's comment regarding Impacts=PxAxT is the fact that it is important, and possible, to solve the poverty problem by achieving the SDGs without harmful technological developments that unsustainably produce perceptions of superiority or affluence.
Stating "Population is the problem" is a waste of time.
The problem has less to do with the total population and far more to do with the insatiable desire for "Growth of GDP", or any other harmfully unsustainably obtained perception of advancement or superiority. Without sustainably solving that problem even 1 billion humans (or 500 million) will be unsustainable on this planet.
The people perceived to be the highest status need to be the ones living less harmfully, more sustainably, not the backwards way things have been perceived through human history. The perception that people who are more technologically advanced and more willing to benefit from harmful activity are "Superior" has repeatedly failed to produce sustainable improvements.
The European colonizers ruinously spreading their harmful insatiable desires for "More" around the planet is potentially the most harmful human development, along with the related misleading marketing that makes people believe it was "beneficial for the future of humanity". It is possible to understand, from the evidence, that there was no "Population problem" in Turtle Island (N. America) before the insatiable harmful Europeans over-flowing out of Europe arrived.
The sustainable improvements have developed through the hard work of people who recognised how harmful things had become and succeeded in the battle against misleading marketing that glorified harmful unsustainable developments.
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nigelj at 13:13 PM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
I think discussions of the root cause of environmental problems tend to go around in circles because perhaps there is no single root cause. Its more of a related set of causes. There is a simple formula on wikipedia as follows: "I = (PAT) is the mathematical notation of a formula put forward to describe the impact of human activity on the environment."
I = P × A x T
"The expression equates human impact on the environment to a function of three factors: population (P), affluence (A) and technology (T). It is similar in form to the Kaya identity which applies specifically to emissions of the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide."
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Wol at 12:12 PM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
OPOF >>In spite of it being possible to better understand the issues, the waste-of-time diversionary claim that "Population is the problem" continues to persistently be brought up.<<
Yes, it's a "waste of time" but it is still THE problem whether we like it or not.
I certainly agree that the assumption that capitalism relies on constant growth is doomed to failure. The model has definitely allowed the planet to achieve what it has - standard of living for billions, moon landings, nuclear weapons and the rest - by use of FFs in the main. Obviously exponential growth of GDP as well as population is unsustainable.
It is interesting to look at the widely varying estimates of what population the planet can sustain indefinitely - I've never seen one that is remotely close to the projected 10 - 11Bn even assuming the same percentage are living well below the poverty line.
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Wol at 12:02 PM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
nigelj >>Agree that there is no answer to the population problem, at least in the short to medium term.<<
I agree with you. However that's not a valid reason for not bringing it up - it's THE problem.
Per capita consumption being addressed - and how's THAT going? - is all very well but running up the "down" escalator slower than it's travelling will never get you anywhere.
Individual decisions to cut consumption won't do much: government laws will result in them being voted out - and it's all the result of overpopulation. (Edited - I initially typed "overCopulation" although that's possibly more relevant...)
I really think the next generation is screwed. I wish it wasn't, but there.
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One Planet Only Forever at 03:51 AM on 18 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
This is going to be blunt but not brief, and it goes beyond the "Climate Science" focus of SkS. But in needs to be all of that to appropriately respond to what has been brought up in comments @1 through @4 (and has repeatedly been unjustifiably been brought up in comments, not just on SkS).
Most Bluntly: The growth in GDP per capita is the problem. Or, more correctly, the harmful unsustainable and inequitable ways that GDP is increased are the problem - regarding more matters that matter than the climate change harm being done by increasing GDP.
GDP has increased faster than the global population, and yet extreme poverty persists, and poverty continues to exist in the nations that are believed to be "very advanced - based on GDP or GNP per capita" (research that point any way you wish - it is fairly irrefutable - part of the story is presented by Worldometer regarding GDP which includes a table of GDP and population data since 1961).
A major part of the problem is the persistence of the incorrect belief that GDP is an appropriate way to measure "advancement". And it is the higher-consuming and higher-impacting portion of the population who most insist on believing that nonsense claim. Read the 2020 Human Development Report to better understand that point, and so much more.
In spite of it being possible to better understand the issues, the waste-of-time diversionary claim that "Population is the problem" continues to persistently be brought up.
Robust confidence that "population growth" is "the problem" is necessary in some minds. Otherwise, the way the highest consuming and impacting portion of the population has to be admitted to be "the major problem". And it also has to be admitted that the highest impacting and consuming portion of the population actually have to give up the harmful aspects of their over-developed ways of living "before a cheaper and easier way to enjoy what they harmfully enjoy is developed" - especially since economic developments (profit and popularity motivated) that are initially thought to be improvements often end up being discovered to have harmful consequences, especially technological developments. And when those harmful developments are popular and profitable they are very hard to limit and it is hard to get all the beneficiaries of the harmful unsustainable activity to pay to amend the harm done.
The population problem is being solved, particularly by the pursuit of important objectives like the Sustainable Development Goals. I have referred to the recent report in The Lancet on several occasions. And Evan included it in the "The Keeling Curve - Part III" here on SkS. Read the report in The Lancet and you will learn that achieving the SDGs is expected to dramatically reduce the global population relative to not achieving those objectives.
Anyone concerned about "The Population Problem" should promote the understanding that their leadership needs to be pushed to do even more to help achieve and improve on the Sustainable Development Goals, even if that achievement reduces perceptions of superiority that some people harmfully undeservedly developed. And the achievement of the SDGs is further justified because it also addresses "the problems of human impacts exceeding the safe limits of the Planetary Boundaries".
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nigelj at 12:22 PM on 17 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
Agree that there is no answer to the population problem, at least in the short to medium term. You cannot line people up and shoot them. Which is why I dont waste column inches on the problem. Instead its more useful to promote renewables which does have a future and is viable. Doh!
We just have to hope the low fertility rates in the developed world spread to all countries eventually. I think they probably will. I hope so anyway.
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Wol at 12:03 PM on 17 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
swampfoxh: Beat me to it.
Once again only passing references to population: it appears to be a taboo to even mention it and even then it's a "too hard to solve" problem so is just swept under the carpet.
Meanwhile, while I've been typing that sentence and correcting a typo another 30 lifetime comsumers have entered the food chain.
Population numbers are the fundamental cause of almost all the planet's problems, from migration through water access to climate warmingThe only countries that have attempted even temporary limits have been China (One child policy) and India (a free transistor policy) so far as I know.
There is, frankly, no answer to this.
If you've ever wondered why we've never seen evidence of aliens from the trillions of planets out there it could well be that civilisations evolve to an industrial revolution and it kills them in three or four hundred years.
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swampfoxh at 22:32 PM on 16 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
"...the other three analyses..."
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swampfoxh at 22:23 PM on 16 November 2021Do COP26 promises keep global warming below 2C?
And so that's pretty much that. Last week, I learned that the annual net increase in global population is about 80 million (births v. deaths) and early this week I learned that Bolsonaro of Brazil pledge to stop deforestation after all the trees have been cut down in the Amazon. COP26 sidestepped, entirely, the issues of Animal Agriculture's negative impacts on 10 important ecological problems, phytoplankton continue their march toward extinction, and China and India, with the US not far behind, led the way toward (but not "to") Net Zero by selecting a much longer timeframe for achieving any meaningful reductions in GGEs. This leads me to believe that the IPCC numbers in the graph above are about on target, the other four analyses being best left for comment by Greta.
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One Planet Only Forever at 08:36 AM on 16 November 2021The Keeling Curve: Part III
Evan,
This presentation of the problem is very helpful.
It is undeniable that to avoid imposing unacceptably harmful climate change impacts on future generations NET will be required even if it is not "profitable or popular". The requirement for NET to be implemented without being popular or profitable helps to clarify the understanding of what is required for the future of humanity to be protected from harm done by actions of previous generations. Without systemic leadership change the implemented NET is likely to be inadequate, and potentially harmful rather than helpful. Also, developing a sustainable improving future can be understood to require systemic changes that reduce BAR. Reducing BAR will reduce the potential risks of implementing larger amounts of technological NET, or the even riskier implementation of other artificial technological methods that are claimed to solve the ghg global warming impact problem.
This presentation also helps clarify how challenging it is to get global leadership to collectively act to responsibly and fairly limit global warming impacts and make amends for harm done. It is likely that the wealthy and powerful portion of the population in the developing world, there almost always are some very wealthy people in the developing nations or benefiting from actions in developing nations, will aspire to be more like the wealthy and powerful in the USA, Canada, and Australia (high per-capita impacting hide-outs for the climate impact opportunists) rather than aspiring to be more like the better examples set by the wealthy and powerful in some, but not all, parts of Europe.
It is also important to be aware that a review of the historical evidence of human “advancement” leads to understanding that harmful pursuits of wealth and power have a history of Winning and Powerfully resisting being corrected. And the harmful winners can temporarily regionally win-back the power to undo justified helpful corrections that reduced their undeserved wealth and power. Those people have been winning the ability to harmfully compromise leadership in many nations, primarily with misleading marketing, especially through misleading marketing attacks on people who would help the general population better understand how harmful some of the wealthy and powerful actually are. As a result the historical trend line may even be an optimistic presentation of future impacts. Significant sustainable systemic leadership changes can be understood to need to occur that the evidence of history indicates have not yet been sustainably achieved in any wealthy powerful region.
It is accurate to say that the developed attitudes in the current global set of governing systems are accurately described by the statement that "There is nothing in our experience to suggest that the world, as a whole, will accept stagnating standards of living. Developed countries want to consume more, developing countries want to raise their populations out of poverty." An extension of that understanding is that harm being done in pursuit of perceptions of improved living will be dismissed, discounted, or excused. A more insidious point is that many Developed countries have a history of not meaningfully sustainably reducing poverty within their population and do even less to help sustainably reduce poverty elsewhere. As your World Bank sourced chart indicates, global GDP has increased faster than global population. But, in spite of the increasing wealth, extreme poverty and tragic failures to avert horrific suffering by the poor continues to happen (the statistical measure of extreme poverty is being reduced, but tragic extreme poverty still occurs). And there are plenty of presentations of history showing the persistence of tragic poverty is a “constant throughout Greek - Roman - European conquest and colonization history” in spite of GDP rising faster than population population (read the 2020 Human Development Report to appreciate the flaw of using GDP as a measure of advancement).
A good explanation for the “persistence of poverty in spite of increasing affluence” is that solving the poverty problem is “not profitable, or necessary, for the wealthy and powerful”. A similar explanation applies to the lack of action on climate change impacts. And action to sustainably solve the poverty and climate impact problem can easily be made unpopular among the less wealthy and less powerful through the appeals of misleading marketing tempting people to want more for themselves and see Others as the problem instead of understanding that the problem is the harmful members of the wealthy and powerful (and history is full of examples of the more helpful among the wealthy and powerful being unjustly, but very successfully, targeted for attack).
Leadership action needs to systemically sustainably shift away from the history of harmfully compromised leadership actions that appease undeserving wealthy and powerful interests. Without the systemic change of leadership behaviour to penalize the harmful among the wealthy and powerful the indicated required actions are optimistic (i.e. less likely to happen). What is more likely to happen is a continued disregard for the harm done to the future generations, or the implementation of technological actions that are claimed to be solutions but are likely to be more harmful and less helpful than they are claimed to be (like many economic developments are discovered to be, especially new technological developments, especially if they get to be implemented “at scale” before an in-depth understanding of the consequences is developed).
Achieving a sustainable improving future for humanity will require systemic change, especially the wealthier and more powerful portion of the global population reducing their level of consumption, reducing how harmful the consumption associated with their ways of living are, and giving up some level of perception of superiority relative to the less fortunate by acting to sustainably improve the lives of the less fortunate (i.e. the more fortunate helping the less fortunate and foregoing opportunities to obtain more personal benefits). That systemic change will reduce BAR. It will also reduce other harmful results, not just reduce the climate change impacts.
A critical review of history indicates that institutions and related beliefs like the UN, the free market, and democracy were developed in the hopes of limiting the harm done by wealthy powerful people (and the IPCC and SDGs are even newer attempts to limit the harm done by unethical competitors for perceptions of superiority relative to others). Those developments are the most recent steps of the many steps of advancement of civilization. Each step was implemented as a result of it becoming undeniable that wealthy and powerful people competing for impressions of superiority relative to others produce harmful results. Without diligent Ethical Governing the less ethical people harmfully win unsustainable impressions of progress and prosperity for their misguiding leaders and misled followers. And those winning groups powerfully resist learning about the need to have their harmfully developed impressions of superiority and “Opportunity for More – the vicious pursuit of Growth (including GDP growth)” limited.
Based on the evidence of what happened at COP26 this can be understood to have played out at COP26. The rational justified perspectives of the less fortunate who have not significantly contributed to the problem but suffer significant consequences from the problem, and would only contribute if they “choose to improve their lives in the ways the wealthier and more powerful did”, the nations with leadership that is less “captured” by wealthy and powerful people, were essentially dismissed. And the last minute power-play by India can be seen to be the wealthy and powerful in that nation abusing the perception that a “developing nation” like India should obtain financial aid and economic competitive advantage at the expense of the perceived to be more developed nations (but not pushing for benefits for the less powerful nations who are more harmed by what is going on). And the more developed nations that have leadership more captured by harmful wealthy and powerful people can be expected to have their general population, rather than their wealthy and powerful, pay whatever price is required. And it is likely that the poorest in those "helping" nations will suffer most by having the amount of assistance they obtain reduced rather than having the wealthy of the nation lose status (like the way the wealthy and powerful in France attempted to put a price on carbon without providing improved assistance to the less fortunate).
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