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Doug Bostrom at 08:21 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Fully evolved anti-science litigation in New Zealand; custom dummy trust created to serve as a firewall against taxpayers recovering costs of failed litigation against an NZ governmental research unit. Covered at HotTopic: When Asses Go To Court The legal action is being brought by the NZ Climate Science Education Trust, described by the NZ Herald as “a branch of the NZ Climate Science Coalition”. The trust was formed at the same time as the case was announced1, and appears to have been created solely to protect its trustees from bearing the costs of a failed legal action. In the nearly two years since it was formed, the NZ CSET does not appear to have been granted charitable status, and has made no discernible efforts to act as an “educational trust”. All it has done is pursue this legal action against NIWA and its climate scientists. The Heartland-funded NZ Climate “Science” Coalition is chaired by Barry Brill, a retired lawyer and former National party politician. Since he assumed the chairman’s role, the Coalition has discovered an enthusiasm for legal action. It’s an approach to climate affairs that Brill hopes to export to the rest of the world. Describing the genesis of the NIWA case at the Heartland Institute’s sixth climate sceptic networking event, held in Washington last year, Brill said “We are going to need to do this all round the world.” Who needs to hallucinate a conspiracy theory when Heartland's on the scene? -
JohnMashey at 07:55 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
1) People might want to read about Jim Tozzi and the Data Quality Act in Chris Mooney's "The Republican War on Science." It is a well-established tactic to try to consume scientists' time to lessen the amo8unt of inconvenient research done. As usual, the tobacco guys led the way. 2) If people want to talk about defamation and typical steps in starting defamation proceedings, I'd observe that Canada (where McIntyre is) and Australia (where Karoly is located) are not identical, but are certainly more similar than they are to US or differently to UK. See CCC p.184 or as a start the Wikipedia reference. Even better would be to read "the book": Canadian Libel and Slander Actions, by Roger D. McConchie and David A. Potts, 1000 pages. Chapter 6 is especially relevant. If you don't have a copy handy, here's McConchie's useful website. 3) People might Google: "concerns notice" defamation OR defamation "notice of intended action" In general, that is the usual first step towards a possible defamation lawsuit, because {CA, or AU} have time limits. One has to send a notice to the potential defendant claiming defamation, explaining why ,etc ... but need not have an explicit threat to sue. In fact, such may likely be better omitted from that notice. 4) McIntyre writes at CA: "In addition, in order for a law suit to have any purpose, the plaintiff should have suffered actual financial damages – an element that does not appear to be present, for example, in the Michael Mann libel suit against Tim Ball, which, in my opinion, involves nothing more than personal vanity." McIntyre is of course free to express his opinion, which is in direct contradiction to the advice in McConchie and Potts (p.21 of my well-marked copy) and to well-established Canadian law: financial damage is simply not required I wonder if McIntyre knows AU defamation law better than CA's. Likewise, I wonder if others lining up behind him on this have bothered to read any of the law or consult relevant lawyers before offering opinions. 5) McConchie, of course, is the lawyer representing Mann versus Tim Ball, and Andrew Weaver versus Ball (read item 11 on p.15), and separately the National Post. Read items 64-66 on pp.43-44. In general, defamation proceedings start with a request to retract and/or apologize, and if a lawsuit is brought, such is cited to show the court that a reasonable effort was made short of a lawsuit. -
EliRabett at 07:48 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Let Eli see, if one study gets a global warming rate of say .18 C/decade +/- 0.08 and a later one .17 C/decade +/- 0.02 has the second falsified the first? Popper has done a lot of damage, or more precisely Popper as interpreted by your average junior high school teacher and the squads of Galileo's roaming the INTERNET. Einsteins special theory of relativity did not falsify Newtonian mechanics, it just set limits on its range of use. -
ligne at 07:47 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
JBowers: "How many researcher salaries could be covered in 1985 or 1990 by the cost of a GB of storage? How many field trips, even?" and note that that's just for space on a single disk. you'll also need at least one backup. and then you need to park the disks in a carefully controlled environment. or in a server (in a carefully controlled environment). several carefully controlled environments, in fact, because data doesn't exist unless it's in at least two places, preferably far apart. and, because rust can't keep spinning forever, you need to copy all of that data to new disks every couple of years. more frequently if the drives spend a lot of time sitting unplugged. all the while making sure that none of it gets corrupted along the way -- fill up a modern hard-drive, and there's approximately a 1% chance you won't get it all back in one piece. you'll need to pay someone to do all this, natch. and sysadmins aren't cheap (i should know, i play one in real life). it's been a while since i last read them, but i seem to recall that those Ars Technica articles WheelsOC linked to up-thread gave a really good overview of all the things that always seem to get missed when this topic comes up. the actual hardware is only a tiny fraction of the total cost. -
Riccardo at 07:36 AM on 17 July 2012It's the sun
This is what I found on the solar irradiance monitor instruments: ERBE 0.2 - 50 micron ACRIM 200-2000 nm SORCE 1-2000 nm (95% of the total) Where did maximo get that information from? -
Composer99 at 07:32 AM on 17 July 2012It's the sun
maximo: From what I can see your claim It might surprise people to know the term only includes visible light and does not even include the ultraviolet spectrum. is unequivocally false. One of the sources cited in this article defines TSI in the introduction as: Variations in solar total (i.e. integrated over all wavelengths) and spectral irradiance [...] [Emphasis mine.] This webpage (material taken from what appears to be some form of textbook) defines TSI as: Total solar irradiance is defined as the amount of radiant energy emitted by the Sun over all wavelengths that fall each second on 11 ft2 (1 m2) outside Earth's atmosphere. [Emphasis mine.] Similarly, other discussions of TSI do not discriminate between spectra of radiation emitted by the Sun (e.g. visible light, UV, shortwave IR, &c), such as the IPCC AR4 WG1 Glossary or this University of Colorado solar radiation project site. Do you have sources for your claim about the spectra covered under TSI?Moderator Response: [DB] Fixed html tag. -
maximo at 07:07 AM on 17 July 2012It's the sun
My main issue with it is the term: "Total irradience" from which the conclusions are based. It might supprise people to know that the term only includes visible light and does not even include the ultraviolet spectrum. If conclusions are based on less than 10% of the measured EMR emitted from the Sun how realistic are the results ?Moderator Response: [DB] A prudent person would ensure that they had read both the Intermediate and Advanced versions of this post before making such a strong demurral. -
grypo at 05:56 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
I see there has yet to be any pushback on my thesis that any remarks using a derivative of the phrase "to defame" are premature without a specific behavior attributed to a specific person, or a defense of all behaviors named. Nor has anyone said anything to combat the notion that "promulgated misinformation" is a subjective phrase marking an opinion and not under any purview of defamation, legal or otherwise. Karoly is allowed to have opinions, whether or not he chooses to defend them, take them down, or take his time on a decision to escape real or alledged legal ramifications is up to him. These points should mark a turning point in the discussion. Is not using the word defamation wrongly or prematurely a large part of the issue? -
Mike3267 at 04:53 AM on 17 July 2012New research special - methane papers 2010-2011
There have been recent reports that U.S. CO2 emissions have started to decline largely because of increased reliance on natural gas in power plants at the expense of coal (and the Great Recession). Does anyone know if U.S. methane emissions have changed in the past few years? -
JBowers at 03:44 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
134 Carrick "Also, British research it seems is going open source. Hopefully they give them the extra money needed for this." They're not. It's to come out of existing budgets. * Why the UK Should Not Heed the Finch Report -
dubious at 03:40 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Without question, undeniably, replication is the essence of science. But replication is also the process of falsification - trying to prove something wrong, not trying to prove it right. (-Snip-) (-Snip-) KR: "Reanalysis of raw data and "audits" are usually the work of the lazy." The reviewers of the Gergis article (-Snip-) The first notice time anybody suggested publicly that the article did not do what it said (which was before the article was withdrawn) came from people reanalysing what raw data had been made available. People here might not consider that role to be important, but I'm happy that there are people who are willing to actually go to those efforts.Moderator Response:[DB] Please see the moderation reply to the comment immediately prior to this one.
Multiple comments policy violations snipped.
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Dikran Marsupial at 03:12 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
dubious, your approach to science is an extremely bad one, as you are abandoning a system that has shown good ability in deretmining the truth (science) for one that hasn't (rhetoric). It is a bit like saying that you will vote for a politician depending on how much you trust them, rather than on their policies, just think of where you would end up if everybody voted that way! Sorry, bad example... ;o)Moderator Response:[DB] A note to all parties: This recent turn of the discussion has at least one foot over the line of acceptability, and is teetering into the brink of mandatory moderation. No further pushing of the envelope will be permitted.
Please compose all subsequent followup comments to very closely comply with this site's Comments Policy to ensure those comments survive any future moderation efforts.
[DM] just to clarify, I didn't mean that dubious was engaging in rhetoric, just that ones view of the character of someone we don't personally know is very susceptible to rhetoric, and hence isn't a good basis for judgement.
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Doug Bostrom at 03:12 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
dubious: 1) If you don't trust a scientist, it doesn't matter what he says the science is, because you don't know if what he says is reliable. Therefore conduct is the top issue. It is absolutely the #1 issue for me. Not to trivialize, but if a bank robber tells you that Big G is 9.81 m/s2 could you test that number? What does trust have to do with your intellect? Skepticism doesn't hinge on the assumption that one is being told a lie. Doubts over a person's character and doubting the truth of something that person says are not inextricably entangled; an axiom and the person reciting it are separable. In my specific case, I was interested (my comment @11) in seeing whether Dr Karoly could support his comment that "I have just received a threat of legal action from Steve McIntyre". As I mentioned in my comment (@48), I'm trying to gauge Dr Karoly from his behaviour. You've seen it demonstrated several times in this thread how Karoly's and McIntyre's and a lawyer's (Chris McGrath, upthread) interpretation of the letter sent Karoly may all be simultaneously valid even though their conclusions are different. As you say, conduct is an important issue. Your conduct is to stubbornly imply that Karoly may have deceived himself and is in any case deceiving us, ignoring parsimony. -
JBowers at 03:02 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
"1) If you don't trust a scientist, it doesn't matter what he says the science is, because you don't know if what he says is reliable." You do know if you can replicate their results. They may well put Attila the Hun or Bernie Madoff to shame, but that has nothing to do with the veracity of their science. Briefly on the use of "denial": Least-Cost Climatic Stabilisation. Lovins & Lovins (1990) -
Rob Honeycutt at 03:02 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
dubious... You're completely missing the point of what the scientific process is about. The whole point of the process is to not trust any scientist. The scientific process is there because we are all humans and ultimately our human perceptions and biases are fallible. You don't have to trust any scientist. It would be completely extraordinary if all the scientists were corrupt in exactly the same way. So extraordinary as to be functionally impossible. I always use Mike Mann's work as example. Say that everything McIntyre says of Mann's work is correct. Say Mike has completely mucked up his research. Say his statistics are crap, his proxies flipped, say he's using individual trees rather than wide samplings. Say he's gone out of his way to deliberately select proxies that show the conclusions he wants to find. Just imagine the worst of everything McIntyre says and more. Mann's results are what they are. But then, how does the scientific process work? Automatically the system is skeptical. Other scientists attempt to do similar work and see if they get similar results. If several researchers get completely different results then we know that Mann really did do an awful job like McIntyre said. Do you throw him in jail? No, scientists are allowed to be wrong because that is part of the process. Mann's reputation as a scientist would probably be irreparably harmed and he'd be unlikely to receive much more in the way of grants. He'd be marginalized as a researcher. But the exact opposite has happened. There have been nearly a dozen more multiproxy reconstructions done, all of them supporting Mann's original conclusions. My contention is that McIntyre knows all this. He knows that he can't do a reconstruction that shows anything substantively different than Mann's work and thus only spends his time attempting to undermine people's perceptions of the research. McIntyre has found that he has a very effective weapon in the creation of doubt. His work has had zero impact on the actual body of scientific research. But his work has had a great deal of impact on the broad public perception of the scientific research on global warming. -
Bernard J. at 02:59 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Heh, it seems that KR and Professor Rabbet think similarly... -
Bernard J. at 02:55 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
If you don't trust a scientist, it doesn't matter what he says the science is, because you don't know if what he says is reliable... People are generally quite well equipped [really?!] to judge for themselves whether an excuse is plausible or not, or whether behaviour is acceptable... I'm trying to gauge Dr Karoly from his behaviour.
It's interesting that even before I finished typing, an example of several of my points was provided. I find it extraordinary that in none of these points provided by 'dubious' was there any mention of testing the veracity of the work itself. It's this irrational and essentially ad hominem knee-jerking to the implications of human-caused global warming that underpins the necessity for a Climate Science Legal Defense Fund. I'm surprised that 'dubious' so easily admitted to his motivations, especially after it's already been explained to him that Karoly's comment about legal sabre-rattling is validly-based. Frankly, I would have thought that anyone who genuinely wanted to understand the veracity of the science would first investigate whether the science was reliable, by testing it rather than the people who conduct it. -
EliRabett at 02:48 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
What is revealing is that the language of McIntyre's letter was obviously interpretable as a threat and that McIntyre should have taken responsibility for that. Mr. McIntyre incessently holds others to a very strict standard of being guilty even when shown to be innocent, and never accepts that others have been shown to be innocent. OTOH, what we see is careful parsing from the usual characters. The same thing that we saw with the infinitely fine parsing about whether climate scientists had received threatening Emails. The normal human response to such is to simply walk away from the nonsense being uttered about how, if in a particular light, using this dictionary, and some interpretation etc. What it really does is establish who is playing with 53 cards. This whole thing is much more revealing about McIntyre than Karoly. From Karoly's POV the logical thought is who need the agro from this clown. -
KR at 02:48 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
dubious - "If you don't trust a scientist, it doesn't matter what he says the science is, because you don't know if what he says is reliable. Therefore conduct is the top issue. It is absolutely the #1 issue for me." That is absolutely not the case for me, and I would venture to say for most people in the sciences. Science is the top issue, the #1 issue for me. That means results supported by the data, replicable by others using other data and other methods, results that advance our knowledge. While I may have expectations of various scientists (Church, for example, consistently produces interesting results regarding sea levels), "trust" is not what supports science. Strong, replicable results are. That doesn't mean (for me) pushing everyone to put out all of their raw data - that's the equivalent of asking every scientist to also post the contents of their lab notebooks with every paper. It means evaluating the results of their work, and whether it holds up under examination. The current kerfluffle over raw data is, in my opinion, simply the results of folks who (like ATI) produce little or no primary science, but who take it upon themselves to criticize the works of others, resorting to what are essentially ad hominem attacks and lawsuits rather than producing any results - politics and policy, not science. We've managed (oddly enough) to accomplish a great deal without poking through scientists sock drawers in the past - doing so now is simply not part of the scientific process. Judge the results. Not the scientists. The conclusions in light of other data, not the raw data. Reanalysis of raw data and "audits" are usually the work of the lazy. -
Bernard J. at 02:41 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Kevin C at #138. Yes, it is indeed a peculiar phenomenon. I suspect that this tendency to often focus on the people rather than on the facts has its roots in several separate psychological ætiologies. With a hat-tip to the subject of this thread, doing so distracts scientists from their serious work, which is desirable for anyone opposed to hearing what the results are of such work, or who might want to avoid the permeation through to public policy of the consequences of such results. There is also the propaganda value of an ad hominem approach - a tried and true strategy for stirring the lizard brains of the scientific laity in our societies. Another visceral appeal is that which engages the common propensity of many for giving credence to conspiracy, that bastard child of gossip. And I suspect that for many people predisposed to deny the validity of the consensus science, actually constructing a defensible, scientific counter-argument is simply too difficult (heck, even maverick scientists have failed to date), so they go for something that they are capable of doing. I'd be intersted to see more additions to this list. -
dubious at 02:28 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Kevin C: "...the conduct of scientists generates a prolific and heated discussion, with many contributors who would not normally post here. Why?" I'd like to suggest a few possibilities - as someone who hasn't posted here before. 1) If you don't trust a scientist, it doesn't matter what he says the science is, because you don't know if what he says is reliable. Therefore conduct is the top issue. It is absolutely the #1 issue for me. 2) Conduct is something people deal have been dealing with every day since childhood. People know what office politics is. People are generally quite well equipped to judge for themselves whether an excuse is plausible or not, or whether behaviour is acceptable. 3) In my specific case, I was interested (my comment @11) in seeing whether Dr Karoly could support his comment that "I have just received a threat of legal action from Steve McIntyre". As I mentioned in my comment (@48), I'm trying to gauge Dr Karoly from his behaviour. -
Rob Honeycutt at 02:20 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Kevin C... That's a really great observation and cuts straight to the heart of much of the debate in my opinion. For myself, I really don't worry too much about the conduct of individual scientists. Ultimately that doesn't matter. If some scientist mucks up his work and it gets through sloppy peer review, so what? What matters is the consistent message that is coming out of the overall research, not the precision of any given paper. That's where the overall picture of any field of science is judged. And what if all the scientists were mucking up their work and all the peer review were sloppy? Then the results would be all over the board and no one would be able to make heads or tails on anything. This is my big problem with Steve McIntyre. If he really wanted to contribute to the understanding of climate change, and he felt like there were researchers out there getting it wrong, the correct way to go about it is to produce research. If that research shows that previous conclusions were wrong then we have to figure out why and who is correct. As it is all McIntyre is doing is turning up what he considers to be niggling points that ultimately make no difference in the overall research. BUT what he knows his work does do is, it creates doubts in the minds of a segment of the public perception. And I think that is what his ultimate goal is. It's not to improve the understanding of climate change, it's to influence public perceptions of climate change. -
Kevin C at 01:56 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
There is something interesting going on here. SkS posts on science do not generate this sort of discussion. However the conduct of scientists generates a prolific and heated discussion, with many contributors who would not normally post here. Why? -
chris at 01:51 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Carrick, "open source" (by which I think you mean open access) is another matter altogether, and refers to research outcomes in the form of scientific papers. In fact a fair amount of UK and US medical research is already open access; i.e. that funded by the NIH in the US and by some research charities (especially the Wellcome Trust) in the UK. And you'll notice that everything that NASA Giss publish is immediately deposited on their website (i.e. completely open access already). This diverts a significant amount of money (around £1500 per published paper), from research funds. However this doesn't refer to the primary data which is the subject of the harrassment FOI requests discussed on this thread, although as already discussed, this is increasingly being deposited for wider access anyway as computer storage capacity evolves. In addition most published papers are now accompanied by sometimes voluminous electronic "Supplementary Information" files which are already in many cases freely downloadable. Scientific publishing is in a state of flux as the traditional paper-based practices evolve towards various electronic models. The open access model favoured by the current UK government isn't completely satisfactory since it will divert a large chunk of unreplaced funds from research to publishing costs without reducing the costs of scientific journal subscriptions (since direct UK-funded open access papers constitute a small proportion of the total scientific output, and so everyone will still have to pay journal subscription costs to access the vast majority of scientific papers). It's only when a critical mass of countries adopt the UK approach (of funding open access models) that there will be something approaching a cost-neutral switch from scientific dissemination funded by journal subscription to that funded by the author and their sponser. It does mean that those who do research on a shoestring with little or no funding are going to find it hard to publish.. -
Daniel Bailey at 01:30 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Further comments about the usage of terms such as denier should be placed on the thread delineated by Tom above. As such, they are off-topic here. Please return the discussion to the OP of this thread, What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund? -
Carrick at 00:45 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Eli & John, there are even crazier reasons I've seen for sequestering data: The fear that NGOs who live to harass legitimate military-based research will use the fact that the data are being collected to prevent the research from going forward. (See Devine Strake, which by the way, there would have been no mushroom cloud, that was a misreporting by the press.) Also, British research it seems is going open source. Hopefully they give them the extra money needed for this. -
Gingellenator at 00:40 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Sorry - thanks for the link - wrong page to post. Not trolling!Moderator Response: [d_b] And we'll draw a line under the skid right here. -
Albatross at 00:37 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
All, While I understand the impulse to address the strawman argument made by Gingellator@119, can we please try and stay on topic. Specifically, the post @119 is off topic, the term "denier" was not used once in the main post, and what is more this "argument" has been addressed many times before. To me @119 has the appearance of concern trolling. -
Tom Curtis at 00:36 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Gingellenator @128, further discussion of this issue is unquestionably off topic on this thread. May I suggest you go to this thread, read the linked Drum article and then, if you have any questions, ask them there. -
Gingellenator at 00:33 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Fair enoughs, perhaps its just me - thanks for your input. -
Dikran Marsupial at 00:31 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Gingellenator I live in the U.K. and as far as I am concerned "denier" is not very strongly connected to holocaust denial. It is just one of the ways that the term gets used. The most normal sense of the word that applies is "someone in a state of denial", i.e. someone who is unable to accept an unpleasant truth for one reason or another. It doesn't relate to any particular piece of climate science, it is to do with the inability to accept what the science actually says. As for extremists, the term is usually "alarmist", and as I have already pointed out is dealt with in the comments policy, which anyone new to SkS should read before their next post. -
Gingellenator at 00:27 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Tom, Lotharsson, KR. Intersting. Perhap cultural meaning is different in other countries, here (in the UK) I would say that the link is quite clear. Separate question - is this a useful term? Given that (rightly or wrongly) it generates controversy. If it is going to be used, I would suggest robust definition is necissary so that the terms Sceptic and Denier are not conflated. For my information, how exactly would you generally differentiate a Sceptic and a Denier? Does the former, accept that: (1)Man has increased Co2 concentration. (2)Co2 causes warming. but questions the level of warming and its impact. Whilst a denier, rejects either or, or both (1) and (2)?? Or is this too simplistic? Lastly, could the term be applied to climate extemists who have been shown to misrepresent the risk and impact of climate change? -
Alexandre at 00:27 AM on 17 July 2012AGU Fall Meeting sessions on social media, misinformation and uncertainty
Wow, it's quite a team of speakers! Any chance of having it recorded & posted? Even if it's only audio? (although video wouldn't hurt...)Response: AGU video record and post select sessions but which they select is up to them. They posted my talk on misinformation at last year's AGU Fall Meeting (thanks to Peter Sinclair for YouTubing it) -
Dikran Marsupial at 00:16 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
The comments policy notes that: No ad hominem attacks. Personally attacking other users gets us no closer to understanding the science. For example, comments containing the words 'religion' and 'conspiracy' tend to get moderated. Comments using labels like 'alarmist' and 'denier' as derogatory terms are usually skating on thin ice." emphasis mine so while denier has nothing to do with holocaust denial, and is a valid term to describe certain behaviours, it is a term that should perhaps be avoided in a scientific discussion, unless it is a discussion of the science of denial. The comments policy also includes: "No accusations of deception. Any accusations of deception, fraud, dishonesty or corruption will be deleted. This applies to both sides. You may critique a person's methods but not their motives." -
KR at 00:02 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Gingellenator - I would have to agree with Tom Curtis above. If, when faced with the data, the physics, the last several hundred years of data (climate change having been predicted from the physics in fairly close detail in the late 19th century), folks insist that it's all wrong, that whackadoodle cycle, cosmic ray, or unsupported feedbacks override the physics we do observe, or (in many instances) claim conspiracy of all of these scientists over decades for nefarious purposes, they are then in denial. That is the correct term for the behavior. The association with Holocaust denial (note the additional adjective) has to my understanding has primarily been drawn by those who are indeed in denial of the science, not the people using the term "denialists", and in that regard (in my opinion): "Methinks thou dost protest too much" This is in fact those in denial playing the victim card. I remain unimpressed. -
EliRabett at 00:01 AM on 17 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
John B, you are perhaps aware that the navies, armies and air forces collect and analyze serious amounts of climate data? and that much of it is classified at least in the US? that sea surface temperature records are basically from the navies of the world, who have been collecting it for a couple of hundred years? that what we know of ice thickness in the Arctic before recently comes from submarine cruise? So yes, climate data and data from military records are often the same. Getting access to these records has been pretty hard. Perhaps you and Steve should send them some FOI requests?Moderator Response: [DB] Having worked with much of that data in the past, I can share with you that some of it is classified simply because of its existence (in a nutshell). -
Tom Curtis at 23:58 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
EliRabett @120, and excellent suggestion. May I suggest instead, however, that any climate scientist with any data should offer to sell the data to McIntyre at a reasonable cost; with the condition that the researcher may continue to use the data for research only, and pass it on to any person wanting to use it for research only. Should McIntyre choose to purchase the data, he would then be free to make it publicly available to anyone he desires. Further, any self appointed auditors can simply be referred to McIntyre, whose data it is and who has the responsibility for passing the data on, if he chooses. Should McIntyre accept the offer, he will finally have managed to actually contribute towards scientific research. If he declines the offer, any future requests for data by him can have a simple response: You know the price. Why should McIntyre have free what has cost others much labour to obtain? -
Lotharsson at 23:58 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
This is a hugely insulting term,...
Only if it is inaccurate...or if one takes offence by asserting connotations not asserted by the user. Speaking of which:...with conotations of holocaust denial.
Well, no. Firstly, the use of an adjectiveless noun generally does not connote a specific adjective out of the pantheon of possible adjectives. Secondly, if you suspect an adjective is intended to be connoted and are looking for the most appropriate connotation, "denier" in this context clearly means climate science denier. Similarly in a forum discussing Creationist attacks on evolutionary science, the most likely connotation of "denier" (by far) would be "evolution denier". In a forum discussing anti-vaccinationism, the most likely connotation of "denier" (by far) would be "medical science denier". And in a forum discussing fake moon landing conspiracy theories, the most likely connotation of "denier" (by far) would be "moon landing denier". See the pattern yet? There are very few forums discussing any form of denialism - perhaps even none - except those discussing Holocaust Denialism where the most likely connotation is "Holocaust denier"!Essentially what its use suggest is that I am 100% right, this is self evident and any individual in disagreement is as ignorant as a holocaust denier.
When I use it (typically at other forums) its use denotes that I am claiming the individual in question advocates claims that cannot be substantiated as (one of) the most likely inference(s) from the weight of all the scientific evidence, and always after suitable evidence has been brought to their attention and they have been given plenty of time to substantiate their position. You'll note that ignorance - or the lack of it - has no part in that definition, as denialism (in any evidence-based domain) can clearly be (and often is) engaged in by informed individuals. -
EliRabett at 23:56 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Ging, as Eli has said climate science denial is an ACCURATE description, as is vaccine denial, AIDS denial, tobacco causes cancer denial and many more. The fake fee fees of those who engage in same for fun (and in a few cases profit) is not the Rabett's concern. If you want to read about a Holocaust survivor's opinion on this issue take a look at Micha Tomkiewicz's blog. -
Tom Curtis at 23:52 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Gingellanotor @119, you are incorrect. The term "denier" no more has the connotation of "holocaust denier" than the term "rubber" has the connotation "rubber duck". "Denier" is an adjective naturally formed in the English language from the term "deny", and has existed in that language since at least 1642 (the date is is first recorded in the Shorter Oxford English dictionary). Through out most of that history, if it has any particular connotation it was that of "Peter the denier", referring to the Apostle Peter, but it has been used to refer to people who deny something through out. At no stage in history has "Holocaust Denier" constituted even 10% of uses of the term. The suggestion that we should not use a perfectly good, and accurate English word because some people take fake umbrage due to an association they insist upon, but which is not justified by linguistic usage is absurd. -
EliRabett at 23:51 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Doug, Eli has the solution, let us send Steve McIntyre all the disks, tapes, piles of paper and more that we have. We can rent a couple of eighteen wheelers and dump the stuff on his lawn, with a note that we hear you wanted some data. . . -
Gingellenator at 23:34 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Hi all I am new to the debate surrounding global warming and have found this site very interesting and the discussion informative. One point surrounding the word 'denier' that is used frequently in the debate above (and in other places on this site). This is a hugely insulting term, with conotations of holocaust denial. Essentially what its use suggest is that I am 100% right, this is self evident and any individual in disagreement is as ignorant as a holocaust denier. John, you do a great job editing comments, could I ask that you try to limit the use of this word in others posts.Debate is good, lets try to encourage it and assume the best intentions of those we disagree with. It acually scares me to see terms like this used more and more frequently in society as it shuts down debate. We demean any cause through the use of this language. regards AlexModerator Response: [d_b] Rather than explode an interesting discussion of climate scientists in collision with the legal world and related matters of data preservation, etc., would folks interested in the subject of descriptive terminology for actors in the matters of climate science and climate policy please express their thoughts here? Thank you! -
Kevin C at 23:26 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
dubious: Interesting. It seems Phil Jones was already suspicious of the motives of the requester in that correspondence. I wonder why? -
EliRabett at 23:17 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
The best data storage story that Eli knows actually involves one of the climate denialists, Dennis Wingo, going well beyond the call of duty and rescuing key data from the pre-Apollo missions to the moon. This shows that data sometimes can rise from the data morgues, but also the expense, time and money that has to be spent to rescue the dead. Frankly, most of the stuff is not worth it, but now and then. . . -
dubious at 23:08 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Kevin C: "A polite note saying what you are trying to do is probably much quicker and more effective than a FOI request - it certainly wastes less taxpayers money. Maybe this is where McIntyre is going wrong?" Phil Jones's 2005 email (not to McIntyre) is notorious on this topic: "I should warn you that some data we have we are not supposed to pass on to others. We can pass on the gridded data – which we do. Even if WMO agrees, I will still not pass on the data. We have 25 or so years invested in the work. Why should I make the data available to you, when your aim is to try and find something wrong with it. There is IPR to consider." Alternatively, google McIntyre Crowley and take the first result. You'll see McIntyre spending about a year and a half of his time trying to get data, starting with very polite emails which were generally ignored and maintaining a much greater level of civility throughout - and persistence - than many people would have managed. Crowley then (2005) wrote an article making a number of allegations about McIntyre, which McIntyre said were untrue. In 2011, Crowley wrote to McIntyre, saying that he had found original correspondence and realised that what he had said about McIntyre had been untrue: "I was shocked when the mails did not reveal what I had totally come to believe Steve had written... "...Whatever, for the record I now apologize to Stephen for that matter and request him to post it on his climateaudit site. I know some people will not believe my (proposed) explanation, but that’s life – I for one know I did not lie (intentionally tell a falsehood) because I try quite hard to say what I think is the truth, by all means to not lie, and teach my children likewise." -
Lotharsson at 22:55 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
Do Australian scientists feel there is a need for something like the CSLDF in Australia? If so, is there a suitable vehicle already? -
Dikran Marsupial at 22:15 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
FWIW I sent Prof. Murry Salby an email on 08 June 2012 asking for details of how a slide in his talk was generated so I could try and replicate it for an article I was writing for SkS. I haven't recieved a reply from him to that email, or indeed any other email I have sent (other than the standard "I'm swamped and can't respond to all the emails" reply I recieved from Jemme Wu in response to my first email). -
Kevin C at 22:08 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
One other comment which might be relevant: I have so far requested data from 3 climate scientists (all high profile figures). In each case I had what I wanted within 24 hours. (A polite note saying what you are trying to do is probably much quicker and more effective than a FOI request - it certainly wastes less taxpayers money. Maybe this is where McIntyre is going wrong?) -
JBowers at 21:19 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
BBC News, May 2010 - Climate sceptics rally to expose 'myth'Professor Roy Spencer, for instance, is a climate sceptic scientist from the University of Alabama in Huntsville. But when I asked him about the future of Professor Phil Jones, the man of the heart of the UEA e-mail affair, he said he had some sympathy. "He says he's not very organised. I'm not very organised myself," said Professor Spencer. "If you asked me to find original data from 20 years ago I'd have great difficulty too. "We just didn't realise in those days how important and controversial this would all become - now it would just all be stored on computer. Phil Jones has been looking at climate records for a very long time. Frankly our data set agrees with his, so unless we are all making the same mistake we're not likely to find out anything new from the data anyway."
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Kevin C at 20:25 PM on 16 July 2012What is the Climate Science Legal Defense Fund?
JohnB: You've got some interesting questions there. I don't think the issues are quite as simple however. These comments are from my own field, which is not climate.- For much of my career, we couldn't store the raw data long term, only the results. The raw data were to big. This changed in the late 90's, but is now changing back due to the introduction of new high speed detectors. There have been a few cases of wrong results which might have been fixable with the raw data, but in the vast majority of cases the raw data is never needed again. So there is a cost-balance argument to make - is it more cost effective to store the raw data, or to redo the experiment in the rare cases where it is needed?
- We now often deposit data and/or methods with papers. I've been trying to do that with my posts here (or at least have enough ready to pull it together in an hour or two). But it is time consuming. Software even more so - I've been developing scientific software for 20 years, and to produce releasable code rather than something you run once (even with careful testing) to get a specific result usually increases the amount of work several times. So again there is a trade off.
- We lost a lot of our data from the 80's in the switch from reel-to-reel tapes to cassettes, and we did a lot better than many labs, because we were big enough to have a full time system manager. Data management was hugely manpower intensive. To some extent it still is - if we didn't have someone who could manage network appliances for us, then buying in storage either commercially or from the university would significantly inflate the cost of our grants.
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