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scaddenp at 10:21 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Yogi - you do it like this -
Rosco at 10:21 AM on 23 February 2012Postma disproved the greenhouse effect
I need to add:- 1. The maximum temperature is determined by the power of the radiation. 2. The Moon heats so quickly from ~ minus 210 degrees to about 90 degrees C that graphs of the increase are almost vertical. 3. If the solar radiation hitting the Earth's surface is ~170 W/sq m how do experiments such as the one performed by Wood and others achieve such high temperatures inside a glass covered box where no IR backradiation can enter ? 4. How do solar panels produce electricity at ~170 W/sq m - 100% efficiency ?? 5. "Turning our attention to the example of Langley's greenhouse experiment on Pike's Peak in Colorado (mentioned by Arrhenius, 1906b), we may be tempted to ask how it is that a greenhouse can reach such high temperatures. Qualitatively, we may attribute the difference between the 15ºC mean surface temperature and the 113ºC observed in Langley's greenhouse to the fact that noon-time radiation at the surface is three to four times as intense as the mean radiation over the whole of the earth's surface." Given that a glass greenhouse prevents IR radiation from leaving it also prevents it entering - show how did that temperature arise in the few hours it did ? It certainly did not accumulate fro a mere 170 W/sq m input. -
Doug Hutcheson at 10:12 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
DSL @ 45"In other words, no matter what you believe about climate science, supporting the social construction of knowledge through the scientific method is inconsistent with supporting Heartland."
Beautifully put. The scientific method is inconsistent with the populist politcal method, whether Heartland, Tea Party, Chris Monckton, Andrew Bolt, Tony Abbott (Australian), or any other protagonist seeking victory through rhetoric. -
Eric (skeptic) at 10:02 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
KR, does the consideration of dust and albedo require a model? Although ice sheets should have pretty good proxy measurements, I'm not sure how they would input the dust data. The model would have be calibrated with relatively imprecise temperature proxy data. Albatross, I believe I answered that in #35 and raised my specific concerns with the critique of Meyer. -
Rosco at 10:02 AM on 23 February 2012Postma disproved the greenhouse effect
IanC We’ll agree on how the 255 K “effective temperature and the IR output to space of ~240 W/sq m is calculated – and it is supported by observation. But this does not justify reducing the solar radiation by four for any calculation OTHER than this. This balance calculation is erroneously offered as proof that the “effective temperature” relates to the Earth’s surface temperature caused by the solar radiation - which it does not. Wikipedia says - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect - “If an ideal thermally conductive blackbody was the same distance from the Sun as the Earth is, it would have a temperature of about 5.3 °C.” This is again based on reducing the solar radiation by the factor of four. My whole point about the Moon is to plainly demonstrate this is absurd logic. The Moon, not a perfect blackbody, reaches much higher temperatures that this method says is possible. The reality is there are such things as day and night and during the day the Earth is NOT subject to 170 W/sq m but most likely 4 times that on average over the illuminated disk – this flux would result in much higher temperatures than are observed and this in turn demonstrates the Earth’s atmosphere does NOT add heat during the day – rather it shields us from the solar radiation. This reality demonstrates a problem for the radiation trap “greenhouse effect” – if the Sun has the capability heat the Earth’s surface above observations then something is reducing the effect NOT increasing it. The only differences are the oceans and the atmosphere on Earth. I do not believe the “greenhouse effect” as postulated exists – I do not believe Fourier postulated it at all – if fact his words state it is impossible :- "In short, if all the strata of air of which the atmosphere is formed, preserved their density with their transparency, and lost only the mobility which is peculiar to them, this mass of air, thus become solid, on being exposed to the rays of the sun, would produce an effect the same in kind with that we have just described. The heat, coming in the state of light to the solid earth, would lose all at once, and almost entirely, its power of passing through transparent solids: it would accumulate in the lower strata of the atmosphere, which would thus acquire very high temperatures. We should observe at the same time a diminution of the degree of acquired heat, as we go from the surface of the earth." I see no support for a radiation trap greenhouse effect in this language – rather an acknowledgement that greenhouses work by preventing convection.Moderator Response: [Sph] Readers should note that Rosco's initial statement statement concerning observations is either incorrect or at best so vague as to imply an untruth.
The surface of the earth is clearly not 255K, as supported by observation, but the observed temperature of the earth as viewed from space is 255K.
More correctly, as well, the IR output of the surface of the earth is about 396 W/m2 (as supported by observations), and the output of the earth to space is in fact ~240 W/m2 as supported by observation.
All of these numbers are well established, supported by observation, and also supported by theoretical models and calculations. They all match.
It falls to the Galileos among us not only to disprove the theory, but also to provide an alternative theory that so well fits the actual observations.
Claims that the observations don't exist, or even worse misrepresentations of the actual observations, should be a warming sign to any reader as to the intent and veracity of further claims by the commenter. -
Pete Dunkelberg at 10:01 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Meanwhile getting back to Warren Meyer, he's a standard issue denier. Review: http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/deck.php Denialism is how businesses and their supporters put off, or delay, making changes for the benefit of the community. Delay is the bottom line. Often some environmental harm is being done, and basic denial takes the form: A It isn't happening B It isn't our fault C It's harmless or may even be good for people anyway. D The proposed remedy is either impossible or much too costly Meyer starts off with this gambit:Likely you have heard the sound bite that “97% of climate scientists” accept the global warming “consensus”. Which is what gives global warming advocates the confidence to call climate skeptics “deniers,” hoping to evoke a parallel with “Holocaust Deniers,” a case where most of us would agree that a small group are denying a well-accepted reality.
As the denialism blog shows, denialism is mostly about business avoiding doing something. In a more recent article, Meyer saysWhat really matters are issues like quantifying the climate feedback effect. Who the hell cares who funds the breakthrough work?
In other words, we must wait for some breakthrough that finally convinces him to stop betting the planet on his hope that science is wrong. That's major delay, which is the bottom line of denial. Since there is only one planet we can use, the rest of humanity is held hostage until the blind rich relent. Don't bet the planet
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Albatross at 10:00 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric, Could you please answer my question posed to you at #24 about your position on Meyer's claims (the subject of this thread) before moving on. Thanks. And I concur with KR's comments at #30 and #40. -
Andrew Xnn at 09:59 AM on 23 February 2012New research from last week 7/2012
I see there are recent papers on heat waves and heat stress, but they are not free to read. Very curious about that subject as I recently read "An adaptability limit to climate change due to heat stress" by Steven C. Sherwooda, and Matthew Huber: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/21/9552.full.pdf+html If I understand it correctly, globally more land will be lost to heat waves than to rising sea levels. This will happen in south eastern US. With business as usual, not sure when this is expected to happen. -
JMurphy at 09:54 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
CraigR, I believe you have read that wrong. As far as I can see, dana1981 and jg (the joint authors of this Post) state that "[m]ost of the programs and individuals in the lower half are potentially climate-related", i.e. potentially $1.75million will be spent on their attempt to create confusion in this matter. So, that is just on Climate Change in America. The figures for Greenpeace and WWF are spread throughout the world, so it is very possible that Heartland's money is comparable in scale within America - and they are just one group. -
YOGI at 09:19 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
600-750 cm-1 does overlap with a water vapour band too. how does one decide the relative effects of each within that band ? -
CraigR at 09:18 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
Thanks JMurphy... I would think the same would apply to HI ....eg they do other things. I think the reaction to what monies come into to an organization, in this case to HI, it is very much disproportionate to many others that are pro-AGW and therefore is an overreach by many. Even Mr Cook wrote above "half are potentially climate-related" -
Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric (skeptic) - Please note that CO2 solubility feedback is still present even under CO2 forcing conditions, as temperature rises will cause the oceans to absorb less CO2 than they would otherwise. The CO2/temperature/solubility feedback calculation is therefore entirely applicable. And you are still ignoring modern measurements of climate sensitivity - your statement that "The evidence for high sensitivity must therefore come from models" is incorrect. As best I can read your point, you are claiming that "due to differences in conditions paleo evidence is not applicable"? Can you point to any references that support that claim regarding paleo conditions? Note that dust and albedo are considered when calculating paleo estimates of climate sensitivity to CO2 (see Kohler et al 2010, which has considerable discussion on the topic) - you simply cannot claim that they are ignored or overlooked. -
jimb at 09:14 AM on 23 February 2012Global Extinction: Gradual Doom as Bad as Abrupt
@ 26-27 Also, although nitrogen based fertilizers help to grow crops, they do not seem to be good for the ocean biosphere when the run off gets to the coastal areas.There is also seems to be some evidence that weeds are developing resistance to the chemical herbicides that GMO crops were designed to tolerate. Technological fixes seem to come with associated problems. -
Eric (skeptic) at 09:02 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
scaddenp, the decrease in dust from glacial to interglacial and the decrease in albedo from glacial to interglacial are both inapplicable to the current climate. They are part of the reason temperature rose so much with relatively small forcing changes in CO2 and solar. -
scaddenp at 08:54 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
CIMP5 has range of 2 to 4.6 Regarding feedbacks - I dont get the "applicable/not applicable bit". Feedback is response to temperature change not "co2 change" or "solar change" surely? -
DSL at 08:50 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Ugh. The 2nd Law thread does things to people. -
DSL at 08:49 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
YOGI: Wavenumber Wavelength Note the top and bottom X-axes. -
actually thoughtful at 08:47 AM on 23 February 2012Denialgate - Internal Heartland Documents Expose Climate Denial Funding Network
The take-away is that scientists, truth seekers at their core, are simply not good at deceiving - this yet again underscores the vast body of scientific knowledge that tells us the world is warming, and man is to blame. -
YOGI at 08:47 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
@IanC, no I`ll dtract that, you are correct, the scales run in the opposite directions -
dana1981 at 08:41 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric, we just discussed the climate sensitivity consensus in Monckton Misrepresents (Part 1). -
YOGI at 08:40 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
@IanC, 1000 cm-1 is 10μm. http://www.highpressurescience.com/onlinetools/conversion.html You can also confirm that by looking at the ozone spike at 1000 cm-1 ~ 10μm. http://ber.parawag.net/images/Atmospheric_Absorption_Bands.jpg -
YOGI at 08:30 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Yes and there is also a nitrous oxide band at 4.5μm which has 298 times the greenhouse effect of CO2. This does not detract from the point that 6.0-7.5μm absorption displayed: http://www.skepticalscience.com/images/infrared_spectrum.jpg cannot be due to CO2 as it does not absorb that band, period. -
Eric (skeptic) at 08:29 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Hello jg, I didn't see you post before my last. The value of 97% is pretty much a straw man at this point, but perhaps you could indicate what the breadth of consensus is for high sensitivity. -
IanC at 08:28 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Yogi, No where in the article do the numbers 6-7.5 μm comes up. The closest will be "Carbon dioxide is the major contributor for emission seen between between about 600 and 750 cm-1". If this is what you are referring to, notice that 600 and 750 cm-1 is in fact the wavenumber, and it corresponds to ~13-16 μm in wavelength (see fig 1a). The absorption spectrum you've linked to indicates that CO2 indeed absorbs around these wavelegnths! -
Eric (skeptic) at 08:26 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
KR, the paleo chart shown at the bottom does not support the critique of Meyer. Meyer's part 2 can be rewritten as "CO2 warming will be substantially amplified by feedback effects" where "substantially" would be roughly 3C or more sensitivity. The feedbacks in the paleo record can be separated into applicable and nonapplicable. The applicable one is primarily the CO2 to warming amplification. However we have short circuited the amplifier and are applying CO2 directly so there is no feedback calculation to apply. Regarding nonapplicable, there is not much albedo or dust change compared to the glacial to interglacial transition, so those will not raise our target temperature. Other potential feedbacks are based on modern climate not the glacial to interglacial transition. The evidence for high sensitivity must therefore come from models. The last diagram in the op can be quantified without a climate model which will not have 97% consensus. I agree with the final question of the OP, which is that a better understanding is needed. -
Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Hi Eric: Thanks for your criticism. I accept your point about my last illustration. It implies a response to elevated CO2 levels that is proportional to that seen in the previous interglacial. Such illustrations should be accompanied by the projected forcing which is not as steep as the CO2 level. My error. I meant to show that the rate of change and expected levels of CO2 have no convenient precedent and therefore the expected changes should awaken our risk-averse qualities. My changes will acknowledge your contribution. jg -
2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
YOGI - Note the log scale on the X axis in that graph. There is a CO2 absorption band around 4.5μm.
[Source]
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YOGI at 07:42 AM on 23 February 20122nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
This is nonsense. There are no CO2 absorption bands at 6-7.5μm : http://ber.parawag.net/images/Atmospheric_Absorption_Bands.jpg -
scaddenp at 07:34 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
"Do you know why Knutti and Hegerl 08 do not have that in their analysis (only LGM and Royer, Berner and Park 07 which is 420 million years of data). " Well watch this space, but one of the issues is simply getting good data. It is much easier to determine maximum extent of ice, say, from geomorphology than it is to determine what the minimum extent was. Building global data sets is a long, slow effort and uncertainties will always be greater than for LGM. -
scaddenp at 07:28 AM on 23 February 2012Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
Re: winter regain. The relevant question really is what does climate theory predict for ice cover and what is the observations? Do we expect rapid decline in sea ice are in winter with rising GHG gases? No. Do we expect summer ice decline? yes. -
Michael of Brisbane at 07:18 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
Thanks Phillippe. I agree with you. (although I do think my point is valid) -
skept.fr at 07:13 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Post scriptum (31) : I must add that the CMIP5 (future AR5) simulations give nearly the same range for equilibrium climate sensitivity, as it can be checked for example on slide 8 of this MetOffice Andrews et al 2011 conference (2,0-4,6 K for results of 9 AOGCMs). -
skept.fr at 07:05 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
On Meyers "Part 2) CO2-based warming will be amplified by feedback effects" Well, we can simply say that there is a consensus on that among the 23 independent models running for IPCC, as it can be seen on this page of AR4 2007 , with a 2,1-4,4 K range for equilibrium at 2xCO2. Scientists are free to formulate hypothesis about no-feedback ou negative-feedback response to GHG forcing, as Lindzen did with the Iris Effect. But they have to corroborate their hypothesis with observations and models. For the moment, there's nothing like that. I'm more skeptic about the robustness of "central estimate" for CS (3 K), it depends on the realism of models (for example, few in the AR4 had been coupled with carbon cycle models) and the details of these estimates will certainly change with time, for example with the new generation of Earth System Models. -
owl905 at 06:07 AM on 23 February 2012Monckton Misrepresents Specific Situations (Part 2)
Moncton is more than a good debater; he's the classic definition of a demagogue. The 'argumentum ad populum' is a good example. Consensus in the AGW world means a consensus of evidence (AR4) that is strong enough for common sense to initiate a response. It isn't precautionary (just-in-case) - it's real. Climate Science & Opinion Moncton re-arranges the message to misrepresent that as opinion polls about AGW. He slides it into an argumentum fallacy presentation. Because there's so much attention to public opinion, no one notices his fallacy. Now he can launch the grenade that says its a product of their false groupthink opinion ... -
Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric (skeptic) - You appear to be (1) arguing for a low climate sensitivity by dismissing the applicability of paleo data (whether it comes from a warmer or colder climate). You are in addition (2) continuing to fail to acknowledge the modern observational data establishing climate sensitivity, or for that matter the models. You have (IMO) failed to support either aspect of your statements, or to present evidence that climate sensitivity is in fact lower than the ~3C/doubling estimated. I'm in agreement with Albatross. Could you please state clearly what portion of the OP critiquing Meyers assertions you feel is incorrect, and why? Because otherwise I fail to see your point. -
padruig at 06:00 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
I fear the discussion about this opinion piece may be misdirected. We are seeing a disturbing trend were someone without any background in any of the disciplines of climate science is given a wide public forum to express opinions about a topic that affects everyone on our planet. The authors objective isn't to argue the data or the science but to dull the general public's response to the results and conclusions of the scientific community at large. To quote "Climate of Fear" (Nature doi:10.1038/464141a) - "Scientists must not be so naive as to assume that the data speak for themselves." -
Philippe Chantreau at 05:57 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
Michael, whether or not it is valid, your point is of no interest whatsoever. You just like to be able to use the word so you can fabricate ominous sounding sentences with it. Whatever. I'm not going to waste any more time on this. -
Eric (skeptic) at 05:51 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Dikran, true. My arguments about sensitivity above are a separate issue since it doesn't matter how the CO2 gets there, it will have a particular, well-understood forcing whether coming quickly from modern emissions or from slow paleo temperature rises. -
NewYorkJ at 05:34 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
"IPCC assumed that strong positive feedbacks dominated" Thanks for highlighting that, as that also jumped out at me when reading the piece. On the contrary, Meyer assumed that whoever told him that was correct, or falsely assumed that positive feedbacks are assumed. Reading the comments section of that article and then the follow-up article that references his previous one, it appears Meyer does not care to engage with critics or learn from mistakes. -
Dikran Marsupial at 05:17 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric (skeptic) You are missing the point, which is that the amount of radiative forcing due to CO2 depends purely on the amount of CO2 that is actually in the atmosphere. We control the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, not the oceans, our fossil fuel emissions are large enough to overpower the natural envrionments ability to restore equilibrium. Even if the oceans continue to be a net carbon sink, atmospheric CO2 levels won't start to go down until we cut anthropogenic emissions rather drastically. Sadly it is highly likely that the oceans will saturate at some point (possibly quite soon), which will make the required cuts in emissions needed to reduce atmospheric CO2 even sharper. This is one of the very good reasons for doing something meaningful now; it will mean we have more room for manoever later. -
Eric (skeptic) at 05:01 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
KR, yes, prior interglacials are much better comparisons than glacial to interglacial transitions because of the similarities of climate base state. Do you know why Knutti and Hegerl 08 do not have that in their analysis (only LGM and Royer, Berner and Park 07 which is 420 million years of data). Dikran, thanks for the reply. The paleo depiction above shows how a temperature rise is amplified by CO2, outgassing on short timescales and other sources on longer timescales. The red dashed line ("what will this give us?") is what we would nominally get by heating the oceans by 16K according to ref 5 here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry%27s_law Except we are only going to heat the oceans by 3C over the next few centuries so during that time the oceans will always be absorbing our extra CO2. Albatross, IMO the labels on the last figure above are not meaningful ("if this gave us this, what will this give us?"). My answer is it won't give us nearly what is implied by that figure because the oceans will absorb lots of our CO2. I either am wrong or right about that, but I am not trying to obfuscate. -
paulhtremblay at 04:44 AM on 23 February 2012A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
Adam, It is time to step up your game instead of all the superficial one line responses. You have been asked to go to specific threads to discuss your arguments rather than discussing them here. I noticed that since you first started posting, two very specific criticisms of Mockton have appeared on SkS. You have not posted there, and I guess that is because you know vague arguments are easier to defend than specific ones. You bring up Douglas as an example of a peer reviewed article that supports Mockton. In fact, it does not. See: Real Climate For one discussion. Or, better still, post to this specific thread: Skeptical Science You also write that it is only my "opinion" that the MWP was not global. No. That is the scientific consensus. That latest Mockton thread discusses just that: Skeptical Science If you really think our understanding of the MWP is wrong, if you are a true skeptic, you should post there with specifics. Simply dismissing my criticism as "opinion" isn't very skeptical at all. -
Alex C at 03:44 AM on 23 February 2012Monckton Misrepresents Specific Situations (Part 2)
Yes Dana, we can see the page because we're authors. I'll make the change, thanks for the catch pbjamm. -
pbjamm at 03:28 AM on 23 February 2012Republican Presidential Candidates vs. Climate Science
Not that any more evidence of Rick Santorum's denial of Climate Science is needed but here is a new quote: “I refer to global warming as not climate science, but political science..." -
JMurphy at 03:23 AM on 23 February 2012Ben Santer rewrote the 1995 IPCC report
It is also worth looking at the original backing for Santer from his colleagues and others, in response to the original attack using this fallacy which came from Frederick Seitz all the way back in June 1996 - he could obviously see that Global Warming obfuscation was the next step after the tobacco one he'd previously been involved with. Amazing when you think how long these people have been attacking and misinforming, and yet they still haven't been able to come up with anything substantial - they just resurrect the same old zombies time and time again. -
pbjamm at 03:21 AM on 23 February 2012Monckton Misrepresents Specific Situations (Part 2)
dana1981@11 not quite fixed the link (2nd in OP) points to : http://www.skepticalscience.com/monckton-myth-17-denniss-debate.html should be : http://www.skepticalscience.com/monckton-myth-17-denniss-debate-part1.html -
JMurphy at 03:02 AM on 23 February 2012DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
CraigR, the WWF and Greenpeace are world-wide organisations involved in a lot of other issues apart from Global Warming. You could find out the actual details by going to their websites : Best known as the world’s leading independent conservation body...[involved in] Conservation Tackling Climate Change Sustainability WWF UK - What we do We care about how all life on Earth shares our unique planet. WWF UK - About us OUR MISSION WWF’s mission is to stop the degradation of the planet’s natural environment, and to build a future in which humans live in harmony with nature by: • conserving the world’s biological diversity; • ensuring that the use of renewable natural resources is sustainable; • reducing pollution and wasteful consumption. Tackling Climate Change [they spent just over] £7.5million worldwide WWF UK - Financial Report 2011 Since our founding, we’ve invested nearly US$10 billion in more than 13,000 conservation projects in over 150 countries. And while our mission has developed over the years, it remains as clear as ever: “to stop the degradation of the planet’s natural environment and to build a future in which humans live in harmony with nature.” WWF International (It doesn't itemise Global Warming in this 2010 Report but you can see that most of their work is to do with Conservation) The underlying goal of all our work is a green and peaceful world - an earth that is ecologically healthy and able to nurture life in all its diversity. Greenpeace - Our vision We investigate, expose and confront environmental abuse by governments and corporations around the world. We champion environmentally responsible and socially just solutions, including scientific and technical innovation. Greenpeace - How we make change happen We do not accept funding from any political parties, governments or corporations. As ever, the great majority (95%) of our income came from individual supporters, who donated an average of €77 a year to Greenpeace. The remainder came from foundation funding. Climate & Energy €25,027,000 Greenpeace International - Annual Report 2010 Now, how does all that compare to a secretive Conservative group, working just in America, with an agenda to undermine science ? -
dana1981 at 03:02 AM on 23 February 2012Monckton Misrepresents Specific Situations (Part 2)
Monckton illustrates very well why the 'skeptics' are always calling for public debates, and why climate realists rarely participate. Public debates are 'won' by whoever can make the most convincing-sounding argument. It has little do to with who is actually right, or there would be no purpose for debate teams. Monckton clearly does not understand climate science, but he is an excellent debater. Thus he "wins" debates by convincing the audience he's right when all he's really doing is misinforming them by misrepresenting his sources. Apologies for any broken links in the article - they've now been fixed. -
Albatross at 03:00 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric, This is classic obfuscation by you. This post is about Meyer's very misguided understanding of the science. What is your position on his claims? Could you please let us know specifically which of his claims you agree with or support and which ones that you do not agree with or support. And one can take it from there. Open-minded and informed climate scientists know very well that model reconstructions constrained by paleo data data from periods that were both warmer and cooler than today's current climate, including independent estimates based on data from the last 130 years or so also support a value near +3 C for a doubling of CO2. This is why people like Pielke and Lindzen avoid the paleo data like the plague because it completely undermines their claims of homeostasis and strong negative feedbacks. You continue to argue against a massive amount of very solid and robust science, multiple independent lines of evidence and last but not least basic physics. -
Dikran Marsupial at 02:14 AM on 23 February 2012Uncertainty Is Not the Basis for Investment
Eric (sceptic) Thank you for clarification, I think I can now see the misunderstanding. The exchange of carbon between the oceans and atmosphere is principally governed by two factors, ocean temperature and the difference in partial pressure between the surface waters and the atmosphere. Thus the warming of the oceans that we are seeing is increasing the flux from the ocean to the atmosphere now just as it did in the paleoclimate record. However, due to anthropogenic emissions there is now an increasingly large difference in partial pressures between the atmosphere and surface waters, which pushes the fluxes in the other direction. The only difference between now and then is anthropogenic emissions, the oceans are acting according to the laws of physics in the same way now as they did then. Essentially the temperature driven outgassing is happening, it is just that it is being masked by the pressure differential driven uptake*. Unless you have an argument that climate sensitivity is different now than it was then, the effect of CO2 on global temperatures depends only on the atmospheric concentration, the details of how that came to be is irrelevant. * it isn't really correct to think of it as an uptake, it is more difficult for CO2 to move into the atmosphere the more CO2 it contains, and easier for CO2 to move into the surface waters the less CO2 it contains relative to the atmosphere. Thus it isn't purely uptake, but a change in the net flux.
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