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Comments 65801 to 65850:

  1. Katharine Hayhoe's labour of love inspires a torrent of hate
    Climate Crocks has another interview with Dr. Hayhoe. He also links to a town hall meeting at University of Michigan (Yooper country) Cures for Climate Confusion.
  2. Katharine Hayhoe's labour of love inspires a torrent of hate
    “Even as the impacts of climate change intensify, many Americans remain confused by the issue. In an interview Yale Environment 360, climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe discusses what rising temperatures will mean for the U.S., how to talk with climate skeptics, and what she would say to Texas Gov. Rick Perry to prod him into action on global warming.” Source: “How to Find Common Ground in the Bitter Climate Debate”, Yale Environment 360, Aug 25, 2011 Click here to access this informative Q&A.
  3. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 1
    Barry @22, "Is it that the trend in CO2 accumulation for the specific period Michaels examined is NOT exponential, where it IS exponential in longer time periods and/or in more recent times?" In short yes, the "faster than exponential" applies when one look sat the entire Mauna Loa time series-- at least as far as I can tell. But to the issue at hand. The graph below that Tamino generated represents the "linear regression slope for 10-year intervals with start times spaced 1 year apart". So the rate in 1998 is the rate over the preceding ten years. Note what happens between 1988 and 1998-- there is marked dip with the decadal rate started to decrease in 1983-1993 with the minimum decadal rate observed for 1988-1998. [Source] What happened between 1988 and 1998 was not BAU as Michaels claimed-- Michaels was flat out wrong.
  4. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 1
    Reading that CO2 increase has not been exponential in the Michaels rebuttals here over the past week or so, I had this nagging memory that Tamino had come up with a different conclusion, so today I checked back.
    "Over time, the growth of CO2 has NOT been linear, but it also has NOT been exponential. It’s been faster than exponential (as the logarithm has grown faster-than-linear, i.e., it has accelerated). And yes, the acceleration of log(CO2) (the faster-than-exponential growth of CO2) is statistically significant... ... Note that the rate is increasing overall, it’s even increasing recently; the last 10-year interval has a higher growth rate than the 1-year-preceding interval."
    http://tamino.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/monckey-business/ He says the same in a follow-up post. http://tamino.wordpress.com/2010/08/09/mo-better-monckey-business/ Tamino doesn't examine the exact period under discussion here. Is it that the trend in CO2 accumulation for the specific period Michaels examined is NOT exponential, where it IS exponential in longer time periods and/or in more recent times? It would seem so eyeballing the graphs hither and thither, but it would be nice to have that confirmed by someone with skillz.
  5. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    Sphaerica- "and even if it is it won't be bad" Well, the birds, butterflies, lizards and amphibians that have already become extinct from global warming paint a rather different picture. As far as amphibians are concerned, it's hard to see much of a future for many of them. Their current rate of extinction may be 25,039–45,474 times the background extinction rate for amphibians. And that is not a typo.
  6. NASA scientists expect more rapid global warming in the very near future (part 1)
    andylee... If you look at the top of the page, 570px still breaks the formatting of the page.
  7. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    48, Stephen, But that's not the problem. Pirate's problem is that it hasn't happened yet, ever, anywhere, and therefore the NCSE bullet point on the subject of exinctions is wrong, and therefore all of their bullet points are suspect, and therefore Pirate doesn't want to teach what they say, and therefore Pirate will tell his students and everyone he knows what he has been telling them all along, which is that climate change isn't happening, isn't anthropogenic, and even if it is it won't be bad, or if it is, it isn't bad yet, and we should all sort of wait and see and keep doing what we're doing in homage to the name of the Great God the Economy.
  8. Stephen Baines at 08:54 AM on 26 January 2012
    The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    As far as I know, apirate is accurately reflecting the current trend of thinking with regard to the effect of climate on chytrid related extinctions -- in the Andes at least. There are a couple caveats, though. For one, the hypothesis for climate effects on chytrid infestation being tested in those papers is a very specific one -- namely that warming led to expansion of the chytrid range into that of the frogs, and that then led to the potential for infection and the extinctions. There are other possible mechanisms which are harder to test, though, especially on extinct species. One is that climate changes led to compromised immunity, which facilitated the movement of the disease through the population. Such immunocompromise is fairly frequent at the edges of species ranges, where environmental conditions are at the limit of a species tolerances. The thinking is that organisms at their physiological limits either expend all available energy compensating for stress, or experience some breakdown in a critical process that leads to poor performance. Because of their narrow environmental tolerances, endemic environmental specialists of the sort most commonly made extinct by chytrid are particularly prone to this effect. In this way of thinking, the chytrid is just the coup de grace that puts the species already suffering from changing climate away. It should be noted that there are clear examples of climate mediated extinction of species declines outside of the Andes - for example in central America and the SE US. Which is the right mechanism by which changing climate acts on species and what constitutes a direct and which an indirect effect? Frankly, in conservation biology it matters not a jot. What matters is what would happen if a particular factor under our control was altered in some way; would the prospects for a species persistence improve or worsen? More generally, when thinking of biodiversity loss, it's very hard to make a credible argument that changing climate will not, on average, have a net negative influence on the persistence of species, especially those with poor dispersal and high habitat fidelity. If there is such an argument, I'd love to hear it.
  9. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    46 - thanks, yes I did check it out in wiki and saw similar. (http://www.earth.columbia.edu/articles/view/2646). As pointed out above, ecologists are complex interconnected systems; a week link here, a pathogen there - and also links disceplens... I'd trust the biologist to know that such extinction events are enhanced by increase in climate variability: but not the origin of that variability.
  10. NASA scientists expect more rapid global warming in the very near future (part 1)
    The figures for arctic warming are even more scary. Arctic Temperatures Continue Rapid Rise as 2011 Breaks Record Set in 2010 [John, new layout? Your html guidelines need updating from 450px to 570px width!]
    Response:

    [DB] Resized image width down to 500 pixels due to page layout breaking.

  11. apiratelooksat50 at 07:39 AM on 26 January 2012
    The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    Les at 43 There are other scientists with peer reviewed papers who think otherwise. From amphibiaweb.org. "However, Lips et al. (2008) reanalyzed the data of Pounds et al. (2006), and argued that the climate-linked epidemic hypothesis was not supported, as did Rohr et al. (2008). Anchukaitis and Evans (2010) reconstructed a century of climatic data for Monteverde, Costa Rica, and suggested that cloud forest ecology changes have been driven by natural variability in the local climate (in particular, extreme dry periods associated with El Niño weather patterns) rather than by anthropogenic climate forcing."
  12. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    42, Pirate, From Thomas, 2006:
    Pounds et al. conclude that climate has been triggering fungal epidemics: approxi- mately 80% of the Atelopus species that have disappeared were last seen following a hot year. Cold nights inhibit fungal growth at high elevations, whereas hot days con- strain it at low elevations. In recent decades, night-time temperatures have increased and peak day-time tempera- tures have decreased (because of increased cloudiness), both of which favour the fungus. The optimal climate range for the fungus has moved up into the geographical ranges of susceptible frogs. As a result, over 90% of the harlequin frog species that used to be restricted to mid-elevations (1000–2400 m) are thought to have become extinct [8].
  13. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    42, Pirate, Hmm, interesting that you can put that much time into researching an issue that you presume justifies your complete disdain for the concept of climate change, and yet you can't find time to research actual climate science -- the thing that you love to be so vocal about refusing to accept. But good for you, you're on the right track. You took the time to research a problem past the surface, and to learn more about it. Now if only you can apply that approach more properly and consistently to everything, instead of just the stuff that bugs you.
  14. The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    FWIW Mark Lynas (Six Degrees: our future on a hotter planet) explicitly touches on the above Golden Toad as the first documented climate change related extinction. He also notes the issues around chytrid etc. so: - this is now a pretty old story. - this is in chapter 1 (1° hotter) out of 6. - maybe folks teaching climate change could do worse than following David Archers' ( U of Chicago, Climate 101) advice in making the above a course book....
  15. NASA scientists expect more rapid global warming in the very near future (part 1)
    owl905 - "The title does a disservice to the science" Maybe you just can't read? Here's how the NASA scientists end their analysis: "We conclude that the slowdown of warming is likely to prove illusory, with more rapid warming appearing over the next few years" Don't hand the pro-pollutionists short-term ice-cubes to keep delaying a response Dude, no one is handing fake-skeptics anything. It's very likely to get warmer over the next few years - that's what actual experts on the topic have found. I don't see that this is that difficult to grasp, the solar cycle is on it's upward (warmer) phase, and La Nina is eventually going to be replaced by the warm phase El Nino. Well, warm phase as far as humans are concerned - as the blog post makes clear the oceans cool as heat is lost to the atmosphere during El Nino. Now if you think this isn't going to happen I'd like to hear your reasoning, and citations supporting this. Otherwise you're just waving your arms.
  16. A Comprehensive Review of the Causes of Global Warming
    Dana’s OP has been summarized by RP Siegel in “What Are the Real Causes of Global Warming?” posted (Jan 25, 2012) on Triple Pundit. Sigel’s insightful opening paragraph: “The folks at Skeptical Science have put together a review of various scientific investigations into the causes of global warming, in hopes of coming up with a definitive answer. This seems like a good time to do this, in the midst of Republican primary season, as the various candidates try to one-up each other on bashing the science in lieu of what their supporters would prefer to hear.”
  17. NASA scientists expect more rapid global warming in the very near future (part 1)
    The title does a disservice to the science. At the time of the Keenlyside modelling news (predicting at extended lull in AGW), statements were issued by sane scientists that there's nothing in AGW that precludes even a decade of pause - other influences have very strong short and medium signals. But ever since Lintzen gave his notorious interview to the NY Times in 2004, claiming that global warming stopped in 1998, there has been this absurd 'stare at the tea-kettle' pattern. Maunder-minimums, solar lulls, cosmic rays, and 'you-just-wait' from all sides ... it just don't work that away! The key certainties are the properties of the pollution, the energy imbalance, and the pH alteration. If the current drivers get locked in, double-dip La Nina's could pour deep-stored cool back into the atmosphere for decades. It's a zero-sum game so eventually it loses force. The only guess from the palaeoclimate record is that it could be a major force for up to 800 years (the deep-current cycle). Don't hand the pro-pollutionists short-term ice-cubes to keep delaying a response. Waiting for 'our new numbers' to fight 'their old numbers' is a fuels paradise. What counts is the observations - growing widespread extreme events and disruptions. We've been in the paradigm for decades, and the real issue is where it hits next ... and next ... and next ...
  18. apiratelooksat50 at 04:55 AM on 26 January 2012
    The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    Sphaerica at 40 Your facts are off and the analogy you presented fails miserably. The chytrid fungus is believed to be originally from Africa where it resides in local amphibian populations who have resistance to it. It was inadvertantly spread around the world originally through the actions of humans: live food trade, aquarium trade, scientific research, and boats and other equipment. Once established in other locations it can be spread by wildlife. One frog in particular, the African Clawed Frog (Xenophus laevis), has widely been transported for the above reasons. I can remember using them for experiments in high school labs, and it was even used as a human pregnancy test subject. This frog was released, or escaped, into the wild and we have various locales in North America where they are breeding. They carried the fungus with them and thus chytrid became established in our waters and our native amphibians who mostly had no resistance became infected. With no resistance, populations of different frog species throughout North and Central America were wiped out. An adequate analogy would be the introduction of the smallpox virus to the Native American population. (One of our native frogs, the Bullfrog (Rana catesbiana), does have resistance to the fungus and is also transported around the world for the same reasons and appears to be a secondary disease vector.) So, it is not your simplistic view of the fungus sitting here quietly and having no effect and then being activated by temperature changes, but instead what I referenced in the above paragraph. The optimum temperature for the chytrid fungus is 63 - 77 degrees F. Interestingly, organisms exposed the fungus have greater survivability at the higher end of the temperature range. The St. Louis Zoo even used elevated temperatures (90 degree F) to eradicate a chytrid outbreak in their hellbender recovery project. Even with that in mind, climate change does not get off the hook. From www.amphibiaweb.org "Amphibians are extremely sensitive to small changes in temperature and moisture. Changes in global weather patterns (e.g. El Niño events or global warming) can alter breeding behavior, affect reproductive success, decrease immune functions and increase amphibian sensitivity to chemical contaminants." And, finally, even the experts consider the chytrid mortality - climate change link to be "indirect" as referenced here.
  19. NASA scientists expect more rapid global warming in the very near future (part 1)
    I've long been telling climate "skeptics" that the "lull" in warming isn't an indicator of coming cooling, it's an indicator of a coming phase of rapid warming. To quote Stephen Schneider in the video posted on SkS a few weeks ago, "You can't add 4W/m-2 to the planet and expect that it's not going to get warmer." That's just physics. I'm expecting a whopper of an El Nino sometime in the next few years.
  20. apiratelooksat50 at 03:58 AM on 26 January 2012
    The National Center for Science Education defends climate science in high schools
    pbjamm at 39, There may be a causal effect between climate change and the spread of epidemic disease as described in the Pounds paper. In that case the variable of the climate causes a change in the variable of the disease. That should be considered an indirect effect. (FWIW - I do tend to support that hypothesis due to the clumping behavior of certain organsims during periods of drought.) The drought itself would be the direct effect. Other changes in weather patterns, such as frost, would also be direct effects. Other more recent research has also shown that climate change may not be linked to the chytrid outbreak as referenced in this abstract from the peer reviewed paper by Lips, et al (2008) which can be found here. "We review the evidence for the role of climate change in triggering disease outbreaks of chytridiomycosis, an emerging infectious disease of amphibians. Both climatic anomalies and disease-related extirpations are recent phenomena, and effects of both are especially noticeable at high elevations in tropical areas, making it difficult to determine whether they are operating separately or synergistically. We compiled reports of amphibian declines from Lower Central America and Andean South America to create maps and statistical models to test our hypothesis of spatiotemporal spread of the pathogen Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Bd), and to update the elevational patterns of decline in frogs belonging to the genus Atelopus. We evaluated claims of climate change influencing the spread of Bd by including error into estimates of the relationship between air temperature and last year observed. Available data support the hypothesis of multiple introductions of this invasive pathogen into South America and subsequent spread along the primary Andean cordilleras. Additional analyses found no evidence to support the hypothesis that climate change has been driving outbreaks of amphibian chytridiomycosis, as has been posited in the climate-linked epidemic hypothesis. Future studies should increase retrospective surveys of museum specimens from throughout the Andes and should study the landscape genetics of Bd to map fine-scale patterns of geographic spread to identify transmission routes and processes."
  21. New research from last week 3/2012
    Ahh, sorry. Perfectly good joke wasted just because of my limited English skills. Well, actually I think the mainstream cosmology is already considering parallel universes existing, so if that's true, then there already are several copies of you reading the abstracts right now. I don't know if my copies selected the same abstracts, though.
  22. New research from last week 3/2012
    OPatrick: Although Sks does not currently have the resources needed to create a parallel universe, it is actively pursuing the purchase of a state-of-the-art cloning device. The residents of Deniersville will go bonkers once we successfully replicate Dana.
  23. New research from last week 3/2012
    Sorry Ari, just a flippant comment. I cut into my sleep enough as it is trying to maintain a busy work and family life whilst keeping up to date enough with the lastest issues to be able to argue on the side of sanity. What I really need is a spare 24 hours a day to read and digest the huge volume of material you've pointed us to here, which as you say is still just the tip of the iceberg - i.e. I need a parallel lifetime.
  24. Debunking Handbook: update and feedback
    Tom I think your benchmark for whether or not you advocate nuclear power is probably too high. We shouldn't simply be comparing nuclear power's socio-economic costs to that of renewable power in some sort of absolute sense. We should be comparing the impact of pushing for the adoption of both nuclear and renewable energy sources vs pushing for renewable sources without nuclear. The resources and public, private and gov't attitudes to researching and rolling out renewable and nuclear power sources aren't mutually inclusive. That is to say, we will be able to improve our socio-eco-enviro situation faster (by removing fossil fuels from the energy grid) if we engage in the promotion of both alternative power sources.
  25. Debunking Handbook: update and feedback
    I'd add one more criterion to Tom's list. I'd like a future reactor design to be able to maintain containment and a stable temperature without external services from within minutes of a shutdown. In an increasingly unstable geopolitical environment, an event leading to loss of external services with minimal warning seems to be an increasingly plausible scenario. As far as I am aware, no Gen3+ design meets this criteria. I think some Gen4 designs may do so. The Hyperion and Toshiba 4S reactors are both small scale fast reactors with liquid metal coolant, which thus appear to draw on the IFR research. (Probably the FUJI MSR does as well). See the article List of small nuclear reactor designs for more.
  26. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Dana quoted:
    "Temperature change from climate models, including that reported in 1988 (12), usually refers to temperature of surface air over both land and ocean. Surface air temperature change in a warming climate is slightly larger than the SST change (4), especially in regions of sea ice. Therefore, the best temperature observation for comparison with climate models probably falls between the meteorological station surface air analysis and the land–ocean temperature index."
    Ah - a penny drops. That's why when no other data is available, GISTEMP extrapolates land temperatures over ocean but not the other way round. In recent decades this only occurs over sea ice, since the weather station and SST coverage are good enough to cover the rest of the planet. The asymmetry had been bugging me.
  27. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    In reply to various comments above, I admit that the two examples I quoted were not fully equivalent. Michaels deliberately excised part of a graph (he has argued that it was valid); Mann may have just have been sloppy. Behind these specific examples there are I think two points: 1. Both presentations were to a lay audience; congress in the one case, the audience at a wide ranging event with a diversity of speakers in the other. Since it would be easy to ‘pull the wool over the eyes’ of such people, an ethical approach to climate science would require a high standard of transparency even at some risk of diluting the message. 2. In the long run it is important to demand the same rigour of those you agree with as of those you disagree with, a point which many of the comments above accept.
  28. New research from last week 3/2012
    Thank you all for compliments. I have to note that these posts are not a good reflection of the number of studies each week. I only include those that I have found especially interesting. Hundreds of climate related papers are published each week. I only point out a few of them. Most of them would deserve to be included here. Sorry OPatrick, I don't understand what parallel lifetime means in this context (I do understand the words separately).
  29. New research from last week 3/2012
    Another big thumbs up here. Also I like the teaser questions at the start - maybe the answers could be given seprately, or we could be left to puzzle them out. A parallel lifetime would help to give a chance of reading and digesting it all though - any chance of arranging that?
  30. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Owl905 @19, the context of the usage of this particular graph is: 1) Mann identifies scenario B as the scenario we have followed most closely ("... it turns out we have more or less followed that medium scenario ..." 2:18); 2) He claims Hansen's prediction was accurate ("... the warming predicted by the model is pretty much spot on ..." 2:26 ); and 3) He claims the prediction is a two decade prediction (so that's a very successful two decade in advance prediction." 2:32) But, rather than showing two decades of data (1988-2008) he only shows 17 years (1988-2005). He does not mention the absent data, and given that the talk occurred in 2011, there is no good reason for the absent data. Further, as discussed above, he did not show the most relevant temperature series, and he does not mention that he is not using the most appropriate temperature data. He does indicate that the observed data is "Observed weather station data" on the graph, but that would be by no means clear to the audience, and he certainly does not explain to the audience the difference between the land station only data, which he shows, and the land/ocean data which he should have shown. In other words, he does not in anyway provide the necessary context which would justify the choices made in presenting that graph. Readers are certainly welcome to review the talk (which is otherwise very good). I should note that: a) Mann does terminate other graphs early, but so far as I know that is of no consequence as the other early terminations do not distort the data. It is, however, an indication of sloppiness in presentation. b) Dana has shown that properly presented, Hansen's 2008 projections are remarkably accurate, suffering only from the fact that the climate sensitivity of his model is too high. That means the model does show that anthropogenic forcings are the dominant influence on global temperature change (excluding over very short term periods); and that with a corrected climate sensitivity, it means we are in very serious trouble if we do not curtail emissions. But none of these points mean that Mann did not make a mistake in the graph he used in the presentation. He should acknowledge the mistake, and correct it before using that slide again in future.
  31. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Curtis @17 Taking the time to actually go back and view the context would be more valuable than continued judgmental statements with an assumption of "error". In fact, in other graphs the end-point is even earlier - 2000 or 2002. And that's because of the context of the usage: http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/Mann/lectures/index.php There's no error in those graphs, as is, within the context of his usage. Mann even references model holding up to a decades test. It isn't deceptive or erroneous, and Ron Manley's chum-statement that the data was truncated is in the same league as "hide the decline".
  32. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Sorry, I guess I didn't talk about land vs. land-ocean data in the Hansen 1988 rebuttal. I thought I had. Anyway, here's Hansen et al. (2006) on the subject:
    "Temperature change from climate models, including that reported in 1988 (12), usually refers to temperature of surface air over both land and ocean. Surface air temperature change in a warming climate is slightly larger than the SST change (4), especially in regions of sea ice. Therefore, the best temperature observation for comparison with climate models probably falls between the meteorological station surface air analysis and the land–ocean temperature index."
    In the paper, they do plot both land-only and land-ocean data through 2005.
  33. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 1
    Hank Roberts at Eli's place nicely summarizes what Pat and Chip are doing: "Hank Roberts said... You have to remember he does _advocacy_. "the natural conclusion to be drawn from the omission of a fact is that the fact did not occur." Modern trial advocacy: analysis and practice -- By Steven Lubet"
  34. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    dana @16, interesting that the average might be most appropriate. That being the case, however, post 2006 then both should be shown. Indeed, if Michael Mann has copied his graph from Hansen's 2006 paper, but deleted the land-ocean temperature then his offense is as least as great as Michaels' and Knappenberger's in deleting information from the Gillett et al graph, or the Schmittner et al graph. Please note the hypothetical. I do not have any evidence that that is what he has done. His error may just be negligence, but it is certainly something he should correct in any future presentations of the graph. In this case it is particularly unfortunate that somebody who is subject to so much illegitimate criticism by fake skeptics should give them a genuine reason to criticize him.
  35. Debunking Handbook: update and feedback
    David, while obviously off topic here, I cannot find a more appropriate topic for this discussion, so will answer you here. I have a benchmark for nuclear power. The use of nuclear power will inevitably involve the disposal of high grade nuclear waste. I understand that third or fourth generation reactors will limit the amount that is required for disposal, but some will still require disposal. The benchmark I have is that the nuclear waste be disposed of in such a way that that: 1) Its average radioactivity be equal to or less than that of Uranium ore; 2) It be just as economically costly to collect into a more concentrated form as it is to process uranium ore to reactor fuel; and 3) The disposal be in an area which is not prone to faulting or leaching. The reason for the benchmark is very simple: nuclear waste is a long term problem, and we cannot guarantee political stability in the long term. Therefore we should dispose of nuclear waste in a way which makes the waste no more accessible than the original uranium was. By so doing, we have at least not made the risks to our descendants worse than if we had just left the uranium in the ground. The universal reaction to this benchmark by people who propose the use of nuclear power to date has been that it is a ridiculously high, and uneconomic standard. Well, IMO it is a minimum standard (and also a standard environmental organizations will have great difficulty objecting to). If nuclear power is uneconomic when this standard is applied relative to renewable power, than nuclear power is uneconomic simpliciter, and should not be part of a future energy mix. If nuclear power is economic with this standard applied, then by all means we should develop it provided we have adequate safe guards against operation accidents, accidental losses, and security risks (which are issues for our generation, and hence can be dealt with democratically). I interpret the reflex rejection of this standard by nuclear advocates as equivalent to the reflex downplaying of the Fukushima reactor crisis. In the few days immediately after the disaster, almost every pro-nuclear blogger I know downplayed the accident, predicting that there would be zero deaths, and making jokes about the radioactivity of bananas. My response to that at the time is that they just could not know at the time, and obviously so. That they would respond in that way, however, shows that they are not to be trusted when they say nuclear power is safe. They just don't get the issues involved. I am on record on this site (immediately after the disaster, and I stand by the opinion in hindsight) of saying that Fukushima is not a reason to give up on nuclear power, and I am disappointed that Germany has decided to wind back its nuclear program so fast in response (which does not show a proper recognition of relative risks). But the fact that so many pro-nuclear advocates (and very intelligent, scientist pro-nuclear advocates) just don't get the safety concerns is, IMO, reason to not proceed with nuclear power. If the people who propose (and design) nuclear plants don't get the safety concerns, you can have no confidence that their designs will actually satisfy those concerns, regardless of their reassurances.
  36. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Tom @13 - I totally agree, my previous comment simply wasn't clear. I was agreeing with MarkR's point that it's understandable to make the mistake of focusing on CO2 when evaluating Hansen's scenarios. That said, as we've both noted, even focusing on CO2 it's clear that Scenario C was closest in 1998, and I totally agree that making a false presentation to Congress without checking the data behind it is gross negligence. Tom @14 - I agree with one exception. There's some question as to whether land-only or land-ocean data is more appropriate for comparison with Hansen's 1988 projections. In a 2006 paper, I believe Hansen argued that the average of the two might be the most appropriate. See my Hansen 1988 myth rebuttal linked at the end of the OP for additional details.
  37. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Tom @14, Good points Tom.
  38. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    RonManley @10, first, the blog you link to makes a silly connection. It discusses Skeptical Science's criticisms of Michaels, then says, "However, if the pot is calling the kettle black it had better make sure that it is burnished and spotlessly shining." It then goes on to discuss Mann's graph. That is a complete non sequitur. Michael Mann is not a member of the Skeptical Science team, and is not a spokesperson for Skeptical Science. Neither are we spokes people for Michael Mann. The websites suggestion that somebody should not be criticized by another because some random third person is not perfect in every way smacks of desperation to distract from the real issues relating to Michaels testimony. Further, the standard (quoted above) is not applicable to science. In science, it is understood that nobody has perfect knowledge. That does not preclude anybody from criticizing errors, nor absolve anybody from listening to those criticisms. The suggestion that no criticism be made in science except by perfect sources is just a demand that science cease. I am sure that is not the authors intentions, but it is certainly the consequence of applying that standard in science. Turning to Mann's graph, it shows two defects. First, it shows the land station only data from GISS; and second, it truncates that data in 2005. Neither are acceptable practise. The Hansen predictions where for global temperatures, so global, ie, land/ocean temperatures should have been shown. What is more, old graphs in current use for presentations should be updated on an annual basis at minimum. Therefore, the criticisms of Michael Mann in that post are entirely justified. What is not justified is the suggestion that the misrepresentation by Mann (whether accidental or not) is as bad as that by Michaels. It is not. In this case, a decidedly black pot is being used as an excuse for not noting that the kettle is full of three week old porridge, and has become a rat's nest.
  39. Assessing global surface temperature reconstructions
    Philippe, my words (not singling anyone out) were
    "Everyone, please refrain from anything that patonomics may construe as baiting."
    with the operative word being "construe". Given the circumstances, patonomics is protecting his "secret inner worldview" by selectively ignoring, misinterpreting, taking out of context and by even deliberately taking faux outrage at perceived slights from among the best-intended contributions of others. Given such an individual, "blind" by his own volition, perhaps the best response is no response at all. It is not my wont to tell stories, but in this case I shall make exception:
    There once was a US politician from the southern part of the country. This gentleman had won elections so often his victories could not easily be counted. At a political rally, a shy boy came up to the great man and asked "Sir, what is the secret to your being able to win so many elections?" The politician smiled, knelt and whispered into the boy's ear (so no one else could hear), "Son, the secret to winning an election is to keep the third of the people who hate your guts from swaying the third of the people who have yet to make up their minds..."
    The obvious takeaway being that there exist those whom you trust, those in the middle and those that you cannot trust. Some lost sheep are unrepentant and unrecoverable. For those last, shake the dust off of your feet and move on. Let us go and do likewise.
  40. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    dana1981 @5, it was not a somewhat understandable mistake in 1988. The only scientifically justifiable basis on which to exclude two of three projections is if it is known that the forcings follow that projection and diverge from the other two. In science, you get to claim that you know something only after you check the data. There is no ifs and no buts about that. Michaels was testifying before Congress as an expert witness on the basis that he was a scientist, and therefore the standards of science should have applied to his testimony. It follows that the only legitimate basis for his excluding scenarios B and C is if he had actually checked the forcing data and found it to match scenario A significantly closer than either scenario B or C. In 1997 (the last full year of data at the time of Michael's testimony), Hansen's projected CO2 concentrations where 365.34 ppmv for scenario A, 365.13 ppmv for scenario B, and 363.31 for scenario C. For the same year, Mauna Loa shows 363.76 ppmv. So by the simplest, and easily available test, reality was running closer to Scenario C in 1997 than to Scenario B, let alone Scenario A. As you have shown, when all forcings are taken into account, 1997 was actually running below Scenario C: It follows that his testimony represents either gross negligence (at best) or deliberate falsehood (far more probably). These standards are not obscure points, and the relevant facts have not been hidden from Michaels. So certainly his continued defense of the presentation represents deliberate falsehood, and makes the possibility of simple negligence as an explanation in 1998 extremely remote.
  41. Philippe Chantreau at 12:13 PM on 25 January 2012
    Assessing global surface temperature reconstructions
    DB, I must say that it was not my intention to bait on an off-topic subject. The impossible expectation of pure deterministic knowledge is in fact not widespread among people, this was the first example that came to my mind as an illustration, but there are plenty of others (geology comes to mind).
  42. Debunking Handbook: update and feedback
    Err, no thanks on the nuclear power here in NZ. Too damn expensive. Our wind farms require no subsidies. I think that indicates how lucky we are.
  43. A Comprehensive Review of the Causes of Global Warming
    Zeboo - no need for an apology. Your friend Patonomics is engaging in a form of denial. That's not a condition we can cure. Be nice if he didn't write in riddles too, it impresses no one here. State things plainly - if you can't maybe you don't know what you're on about?
  44. Debunking Handbook: update and feedback
    I've studied nuclear power as a potential solution to the problem of replacing fossil fuel use for some years now, ever since Jim Hansen circulated his views calling for a massive deployment of breeder reactors of a specific US design called the IFR. It came to my mind when I saw the "Debunking Handbook", that the negative statements about nuclear power expressed in another of John Cook's books, i.e. "Climate Change Denial" starting on page 143 could stand debunking themselves. It happens that a new book "Plentiful Energy" is out written by two of the people who ran Argonne National Lab when it was the foremost design lab for nuclear reactors that existed in the world. These are the two men most responsible for the design of the reactor Hansen is touting. This reactor design was the culmination of the reactor design work Argonne produced. The design was intended to directly address all supposed failings of nuclear power generation technology. The reactor produces more fuel than it uses. The fuel is a different type than used in existing reactors and can be reprocessed on site so potential bomb making material is sent back into the reactor to be burnt. The reprocessing setup can't be manipulated to produce highly refined bomb grade material in any case. The waste stream that leaves the reactor site decays back to the level of radioactivity of natural ore in a few hundred years. Nothing would have to be mined for hundreds of years as the design can burn the waste generated by the existing reactor types as well as the massive stocks of depleted uranium. It is a solution for the existing nuclear waste problem as well as the solution for how to replace fossil fuels. The authors make the case that the program to build the design at full scale as the last step prior to commercialization was terminated in 1994 by anti nuclear people led by John Kerry in the US Senate backed by the newly inaugurated President Clinton using as their rationale arguments that don't stand up to examination. "We don't need it", is what Kerry said on the Senate floor. Well that was before it became apparent to people that we do need massive amounts of low carbon energy that can be produced for the foreseeable future because of climate change. I hope John and his co-author Dr Haydn Washington read "Plentiful Energy" and see if they would stand by what is in "Climate Change Denial" about nuclear power afterward. When Hansen was touring New Zealand recently he was asked about nuclear power. He said: "it's really a case of you should be examining that, along with all the other alternatives, because we have an emergency situation".
  45. Climate Change Denial and the Media - Banishment of Science Reality
    Skeptikal It would appear the article struck a raw nerve with you. That’s good because its intention was to do exactly that - by exposing the difference between skepticism and denial. Your comments break most of the rules that true skeptics apply like “Experts do know more” and “Trust the scientific method”. And you were even kind enough to include the denialist’s myth about the scientific consensus in the 1970s being that the world was heading for another ice age. It certainly was the consensus in the media and your acceptance of it still is testament to massive power wheeled by the mass media - as pointed out in the article. You look to me to be one of the many hiding behind the facade of skepticism.
  46. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Ron, It appears to me that Mann has simply not updated his slides recently. Perhaps he rarely gives this talk. As your reference points out this makes the data look "slightly different". Who cares? Hardly comparable to Michaels claiming the opposite of what the data show.
  47. A Comprehensive Review of the Causes of Global Warming
    I have to make an apology: I am the friend who pointed Patonomics to SkS and the possibility to discuss AGW here, after I had exhausted my efforts to make him understand the concept. I also had already provided him with copies of or links to a lot of up to date literature and discussions, on climate models, trends, the BEST study, Arctic ice melt, etc etc, whatever i could find including Principles of Planetary Climate. Only having a PhD in medicine, some odd 30 years in science and having read climate science literature for the last 20 yrs I thought that maybe I lacked clarity in my arguments.... Thanks anyway to all of you who took time to engage in the debate.
  48. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Ron @10, "that is to give a favoural impression of the projection. " That is conjecture...and a red herring. We are discussing the removal of the scenarios B and C and then making the claim that Scenario A was Hansen et al's prediction. I agree though that the observations should have been included though 2010 (too early for 2011). But this excuse that "Well they allegedly did it!", is quite juvenile and is getting tiresome. So Ron, please state for everyone here whether or not you support Michaels doctoring a graphic generated by scientists to misrepresent their position and thereby misleading Congress and the people of the US.
  49. Assessing global surface temperature reconstructions
    Micheal Sweet - Patonomics is playing the "impossible expectations" card. With his impossible expectations unable to be met by any scientific discipline, he can convince himself of whatever he chooses. Hard to say whether this just a more polite, sophisticated form of trolling, or if he really does believe what he writes. But regardless, I fear any advice to him will fall upon deaf ears.
  50. Patrick Michaels Continues to Distort Hansen 1988, Part 2
    Recently I noticed another case in which the Hansen 1988 projection graph had been used in a TEDx presentation with data truncated and one of the data series that Hansen had included in his later 2006 paper excluded. In this case the aim of the omissions was the opposite of Michaels', that is to give a favoural impression of the projection. You can see the charts at: Climate Opinions .

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