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Comments 77051 to 77100:

77051. RyanStarr at 12:46 PM on 19 August 2011
       Arctic icemelt is a natural cycle
       OK lets correct the statement "any current trend is also natural". They state internal variability is sufficient to counteract anthropogenic forcing in the 2-20 year time frame (hence a positive trend can be observed). With that in mind I don't see how we can categorically state what is responsible for any short term trend, it will be a combination of anthropogenic and interal forcings. Those "ice loss is accelerating" claims based on short time frames need to take this into consideration.
       Response:

       [DB] "Those "ice loss is accelerating" claims based on short time frames need to take this into consideration."

       Short time frames...you mean like that covering the entire satellite record, perchance?:

       

       Or this, hiliting that climastrological seasonal cycle?:

       

       [Source]

       So, when we've endured 316 317 consecutive months of global temperatures above the 20th-Century average (the last cooler-than-average month was Feb 1985), and the Arctic Sea Ice trends are linearly to greater-than-linearly down (that Arctic Amplification thingy), where's the recovery for crying out loud?

       Regular readers are surely noting the zeal displayed by those that seize upon every last vestige of hope to deny the obvious:  recently the world is warming due to human activities (fossil fuel derived CO2), and the Arctic Sea Ice is in a downward spiral as a result.

       I repeat:  only Maslowski's model comes anywhere close to replicating the metric-ed trend observed in the Arctic.  And his model predicts a summer minimum with mostly-ice free Arctic Ocean by 2016, ± 3 years.

       But by all means, that's only natural...

77052. guinganbresil at 12:34 PM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.) Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals Let's stick to the science... I do not like where this is going.
       Response: [JC] The backbone, the guts of this resource is the same Skeptical Science information - denier myths and the scientific responses. But I'm finding many people seem to be having trouble finding the information on this site so this feature is an alternative way of organising the information, to make it easier for people to find what they're looking for. I'm looking at adding other ways of accessing the information in the not-too-distant future.
77053. RyanStarr at 12:04 PM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       @DB, actually on the topic of "magical cycles" they've been critically debunked at 'another prominent skeptic site' too. See July 30, 2011 'Riding a Pseudocycle' by WE (and others). Further evidence of the robustness of debate that occurs on that side of the fence.
77054. Dr. Doom at 11:52 AM on 19 August 2011
       Understanding the CO2 lag in past climate change
       Dikran, With due respect, your comments policy states "No ad hominem attacks. Attacking other users or anyone holding a different opinion to you is common in debates but gets us no closer to understanding the science." Your statement "It is quite obvious from your comments that your grasp of what climate sensitivity actually is is fairly weak" sounds like a personal criticism. If you don't think it's a personal criticism, then allow me to reply: "It is quite obvious from your comment that your grasp of what logarithm function actually is is fairly weak." A natural logarithm function y = ln (x) has a limit on y such that as x approaches infinity, y approaches a finite value. In climate sensitivity, y is temp. and x is CO2. As CO2 increases indefinitely, temp. approaches a finite value. What is that finite value? That's what I was asking. Now, if you're saying there is no limit to temp., then it is not a logarithm function. It may be linear, exponential or polynomial. But you claim it's logarithmic so what is it really?
77055. Chemware at 11:42 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       I would suggest a division of these into two groups: (a) Skeptics who are merely doing poor science (eg: Roy Spencer, Murray Salby), but who do publish in journals. (b) Spin doctors who have never published in any scientific journal. You may also like to add in links to funding by coal and oil companies, so called "think tanks", and people like the Koch brothers. ps: want to add Willie Soon as well ?
77056. muoncounter at 11:17 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       What a coincidence, reported today in Texas Climate News: Gov. Rick Perry, just days into his campaign for the presidency, has added a new and harsher element to his rhetoric on climate science – an allegation that many researchers, in order to keep “dollars rolling into their projects,” have “manipulated” the data that underlie concerns about human-caused disruption of the earth’s climate system. Andrew Dessler replies: On the claim that climate science is driven by research funding: This purported incentive – to play games to increase funding – exists in all fields of research. Yet a large-scale conspiracy by an entire scientific field has never occurred in the past – and there’s no evidence that it’s occurring here. A more plausible explanation is that climate scientists are worried because the data are worrying. -- emphasis added I would add that the governor has it exactly backwards. There is [emphasis by Dessler] evidence that climate skeptics are working off a political agenda. See [University of Alabama-Huntsville scientist and climate change skeptic] Roy Spencer’s statement, “I view my job a little like a legislator, supported by the taxpayer, to protect the interests of the taxpayer and to minimize the role of government.” Shoe is on other foot; if it fits, wear it well.
77057. scaddenp at 10:45 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Rickoxo - can you tell me how you are supposed to get rich by falsifying data to support AGW? You would get rich by finding an alternative theory - nobel prize country. What you should know is that you get research money for finding out what is unknown, not what is known. Unless the funder is a fossil fuel company, the funder is unlikely to care whether the outcome of your research supports one theory or another. Climate science is a global enterprise, subject to the most intense scrutiny imaginable. I find the idea that the theory is supported by falsified data quite laughable.
77058. ginckgo at 10:28 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Do we really have to bow to their bullying and call them 'skeptics' instead of 'deniers'? I understand that a very few on the list can be classed as skeptics in the actual scientific definition of the word, but many of them are lunatic fringe deniers, and putting them together with actual skeptics further devalues the term.
77059. alan_marshall at 09:59 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       What I notice is the abundance of grey hair. How sad that these old men, who will be dead when climate change really bites, are obstacles to protecting the world their children and grandchildren will inherit.
77060. muoncounter at 09:44 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Rickoxo#389: What I 'believe' is just as irrelevant as what you believe. What is relevant is the evidence you produce to substantiate your argument. Thus far you've produced nothing, choosing instead to ignore the 170 denier myths factually disputed on this site and focus on some drivel about who said what. You're still in grad school and you're an expert on the ethics of the research community; you admit you have to 'watch yourself' -- and yet I (and presumably others on SkS) am completely untrustworthy. Have fun looking for other places to ask questions; no doubt you will settle on one or two that provide the answers you want to hear. Come back if you want serious discussion without name-calling. Here's something from the Comments Policy to consider: No accusations of deception. Any accusations of deception, fraud, dishonesty or corruption will be deleted. This applies to both sides. Stick to the science. You may criticise a person's methods but not their motives. DB - please leave this exchange up for a while so others can see the sort of nonsense that we're getting these days.
       Moderator Response: (DB) Okeeleedokily
77061. scaddenp at 09:18 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       "But to be honest I’ve never noticed any sceptical publications or ideas being flagged up here" I think CBD means real skepticism, the kind the scientists use, not pseudo-skepticism (ie only skeptic of evidence for AGW, and accepting without any critical evaluation any evidence against the theory). The site seems to exist largely to bunk the pseudo-science with real evidence, because there is so much of junk out there. Did you have some peer-reviewed science paper that you think is missing from discussions?
77062. Rickoxo at 09:13 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       muon, if you don't believe it's possible for GWS scientists to be tainted by money, then there's no discussion. When you tell me it's an insult and a possible violation of site policy to even consider the possibility that scientists whose work you cite as evidence could be influenced by money, what it really tells me is that we can't have a productive discussion. If this is the nature of the responses I get asking questions here, I'll keep looking around for other places to ask questions. There's a bunch of what seems like good information on this site and whether or not you believe it, I am someone who hasn't made up their mind and is trying to find out the best evidence I can. But every time I bump into someone who won't even consider the possibility of bad faith on their side but knows it's happening on the other side, it's the strongest evidence I know of that this isn't a site about finding information, it's about preaching to the choir and having fun bashing the few new comers that show up or fighting with old trolls that stick around. I'm a grad student in education and I work among professors applying for grants every day and I apply for grants to do research. I have to watch myself on every grant application I submit that I'm being honest with my data and providing an accurate description of my work. Same goes true for conference proposals, paper submissions, everything. The second you tell me its an insult to even question the potential integrity of climate scientists is the second I get you know nothing about the research community and how it works and that you're a completely untrustworthy source of information.
       Response:

       [DB] You will find that when you get older, age will give you perspective.  One of the things you will learn, at some point at least, is that in science the work has to stand on its own merits, and also suffer the withering scrutiny of peer review.  This site is devoted to examing climate science on its merits and discusses the literature in the spirit of peer-review.

       You will also find that those who do not have evidence on their side fall back on the tried and true attack-the-messenger model, which today consists of trying to discredit those who do the research itself.  If that is indeed your bent at this time in your life, may I recommend a change of venue for you?

       Then the discussion of the science can continue here unabated, free from aspersions and character assassinations.

77063. skywatcher at 09:11 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       On the topic of these skeptics disagreeing with each other, this post by MediaMatters has emails from Richard Muller and Judith Curry throwing Bastardi under the bus. Muller also explicitly debunks Murry Salby in his email to MediaMatters. Oh yeah, Judith Curry may be worth considering for the roll-call? #10 Les - I agree with you, in that it is a very fine line between calling out skeptics for their BS and a witch-hunt. However, unlike witches, these people have earned their right to be on this dunce's list, and the more these people are shown to be spouting garbage, the better.
77064. Stevo at 09:01 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Good resource to add, John. May I suggest that when you divide it into categories, you include such titles as "Political Idealogues", "Good Scientists Gobe Astray" and of course "Climastrologists"? It would be horrible to piant people into the denialist corner who may not be beyond redemption.
77065. Anthony Mills at 08:29 AM on 19 August 2011
       Climate Skeptic Fool's Gold
       Climate models require a surface energy balance to couple the atmosphere and ocean/land responses--hence a specification of the latent heat transport into the atmosphere due to evaporation is required.This transport is about 80W/m2,as compared to a CO2 radiation flux of about 2 W/m2.Can you present a model for the latent heat transport based on "sound physics", with an associated error bound that is less than 2W/m2? Without such a component model the larger" climate model" cannot claim to be physics based and will be seriously limited in its ability to predict the effect of CO2 on future climate change.
77066. Daniel Bailey at 08:24 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       @ Sphaerica Oh, I agree, that one's "wackier than a 3-dollar bill" (or your euphemism of choice). But this forum is a lesser place if we start bandying about some of the more colorful and pointed descriptive terms that are commonplace in lesser venues than this. We need to model the behavior we expect of others. /point
77067. garethman at 08:16 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       CBDunkerson at 01:41 AM on 19 August, 2011 Ryan, actually we DO exercise scientific skepticism here. Really? I note you address climate change scepticism in an assertive and evidence based fashion, But to be honest I’ve never noticed any sceptical publications or ideas being flagged up here. Apologies if I miss the point.
       Response:

       [DB] "But to be honest I’ve never noticed any sceptical publications or ideas being flagged up here."

       Eh?  You've lost me.

77068. Bob Lacatena at 07:59 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       24, JC, How about "Climate Mythologists?"
       Response: [JC] Had a thought after responding to 24 - or another alternative is "Climate Misinformers". Hmm...
77069. Bob Lacatena at 07:56 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       20, DB, "Too far" In this case, I disagree. Postma is an absolute [-snip-], no better than some of the recent posters on this site with his own version of made up science. Using that as an example of skepticism, as if not buying into every obscenely ridiculous denial argument is a banner to be waved is not, to me, palatable. I thought my choice of words appropriate to the situation (actually, they were an insult to RVIs everywhere).
77070. funglestrumpet at 07:46 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       All well and good, indeed very good. BUT, how do we get this into the mainstream media? I have just Googled 'Climate Change' and gave up after page seven, having found no reference to this site. The good news is that when I Googled 'Climate Change Skeptics' this site was the second item on the first page. All I know is that originally I only found this site by accident. O.K. the 'Climate Change' search had a lot of government sites, which would get top billing I assume, but there were some of this site's standing. I wonder if there are any marketing people among the sks readership who could advise accordingly. Just a suggestion - how about a sydicated weekly newspaper column that deals with, say, one climate myth a week and put photos of any prominent skeptics who believe in it. It could also offer an advice feature entitled 'Ask Uncle John(?) about your climate change worries.' This could have a link to sks when more depth to the answer is required than there is room for? From a personal perspective, I often find that the contributers to this site rely on argot too much. For instance, when perusing the science related to specific myths one finds reference to the PDO (Post Dump Olfaction?) and such like. This site is an excellent reference for anyone concerned about the subject of Climate Change, but I wonder if it would be even better if it put things more in layman's terms.
77071. Composer99 at 07:09 AM on 19 August 2011
       How we know an ice age isn't just around the corner
       From Dr Doom: Despite recent global warming, temp. today is one of the coldest in 600 million yrs. For most of geologic history, earth's temp. was above 17C. I will here echo muoncounter and suggest a citation is in order. Royer et al 2004 suggests that there was a period, centered around 300 Ma in the past, where global temperatures were lower than those of the present. But I will again echo muoncounter and suggest that your comment quoted above has little to do with whether climate science contrarians are correct in suggesting a new glacial period is imminent (or that one has been fortuitously forestalled by AGW).
77072. pbjamm at 06:54 AM on 19 August 2011
       Climate Denial Video #3: Polluters Use Same Tactics As Tobacco Industry
       Kinda mangled that. Here is the 2nd half of that quote: "And second there are issues that confront society that have science as their foundation. If you are scientifically illiterate, in a way, you are disenfranchising yourself from the democratic process, and you don’t even know it."
77073. pbjamm at 06:45 AM on 19 August 2011
       Climate Denial Video #3: Polluters Use Same Tactics As Tobacco Industry
       This video of Neil Degrasse Tyson discussing Scientific Literacy could be posted on just about any thread on this site and be on topic, but this one seemed the most relevant. "If you’re scientifically literate, the world looks very different to you. It’s not just a lot of mysterious things happening, there’s a lot of things we understand out there! And that understanding empowers you to, first not be taken advantage of by others who do understand it"
77074. muoncounter at 06:42 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Rickoxo#387: "why it's a concern on one side and not the other?" When the oil industry geological association tempers their position statement with an overt 'its gonna cost us,' what doubt is there that money talks? But if you are implying that academic scientists are equally swayed by threats to their grants, you're a. unsubstantiated b. ignoring the fact that there is much more money to be had by working in the denial industry c. insulting folks who are engaged in difficult enough work without such harassment d. flirting with Comment Policy violation. But why bring up former VP Gore? He is not a scientist (and comments with gratuitous Gore throw-downs violate the Comments Policy as well). Dead issue. "The issue seems to be about the actual scientific evidence and conclusions being in question or not." No, the issue that deniers continue to raise is usually over the wording of questions in the survey or the response rate to the survey. Side-show: question the science, not the survey. Apply the same skeptical microscope to the junk science being turned out by the denial industry. "a possibility at least somewhat suggested by the East Anglia e-mails" All investigations of the email hack showed no wrong-doing on the part of the scientists in question, so that's a dead issue as well. Find the appropriate thread for continued comments -- if any are necessary. "Commercial publishing companies frequently come up with peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that their curriculum is great." Is that how textbook-buying decisions are made in your schools? In mine, there's a state board that believes humans and dinosaurs lived side by side, just like on the Flintstones. What's your point? Now go read the Comments Policy again and refrain from making unsubstantiated accusations.
77075. Rickoxo at 06:15 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       And side note, the argument about money to me seems to be that you both (CB and muon) see it as a concern for skeptics but don't seem to consider it as a potential issue for GWS folks. I don't get why it's a concern on one side and not the other? I don't want to get lost in this issue, but think about Al Gore for a sec. I'm betting folks here are a bit embarrassed by some of the stuff he's said and how far beyond science he's stepped multiple times. So why did he do it? The issue seems to be about the actual scientific evidence and conclusions being in question or not. If one believes the science is settled, they would conclude that anyone questioning it must be motivated by factors other than science since the science is settled. But if you don't start from the position that the science is settled, it's possible that folks citing "evidence" on either side could be arguing out of self-interest rather than science, a possibility at least somewhat suggested by the East Anglia e-mails. I get follow the money is a powerful strategy to use in interpreting evidence, data, research and it's a huge issue in education. Commercial publishing companies frequently come up with peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that their curriculum is great. But if the argument can't cut both ways, than it's just one more piece of an a priori determination that one side is right and the other is wrong.
77076. Rickoxo at 05:58 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       I just went and read Doran's summary of his own study, and it seems that maybe the key issue for this thread is the specific description of the consensus, not whether or not there is a consensus. The two questions Doran listed as most important and that the bulk of reporting on the survey referenced were, have temps risen since 1800 and is human activity a significant factor. A couple of thoughts. 1. Those two points aren't even close to the IPCC conclusions, so if this is your definition of consensus, it doesn't seem to represent consensus on a strong position in favor of GWS as exemplified by IPCC. Second, why did Doran pick 1800? Given that there seems to be pretty good historical evidence that Europe was pretty cold during the hundred years or so before 1800, it's potentially even less significant that temps have risen since then. Lastly, the second question said that human activity is a significant factor, but it doesn't say to what degree. I do education research, so tests for significance don't mean anywhere nearly as much as effect sizes. Even if we completely accept Doran as 100% truth, it doesn't seem to add a lot of evidence in favor of a strong, IPCC like description of what scientists agree on. I just had this argument with a buddy saying, depending on what the definition is of GWS, my bet is varying ranges of percentages of scientists would say yes or no. Given Doran's two questions, I'd say yes to both of those as well, but to quote a famous Spanish sword fighter, "I do not think that means what you think it means." If you asked me to say yes or know to the APS's restatement of their position that said, "The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring", I sure hope that any good scientist would ask for clarification as to how the term global warming is defined and the time frame in question. Given that the APS does neither in that brief statement, I'd sure hope any good scientist would say I can't say yes to this without knowing more details.
77077. muoncounter at 05:53 AM on 19 August 2011
       How we know an ice age isn't just around the corner
       DrD#60: "today is one of the coldest in 600 million yrs." How is that relevant to today - and how is it relevant to this thread? See the estimating sensitivity from paleoclimate thread More in general, it enhances your credibility when you provide a source for such statements.
77078. Ken E at 05:39 AM on 19 August 2011
       Climate Skeptic Fool's Gold
       This fool's gold comes in so many forms, to the relatively less educated eye that only sees what they want to see, you can just recycle and recycle and the layperson can't tell the difference. It's increasingly not a question of expounding on the science, it's overcoming irrational denial. Though I'm sure this has been discussed before.
77079. Andy Skuce at 05:28 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       It's worth bearing in mind that all these people are listed under the heading "climate skeptics" which may be appropriate for some of them but for most others, being labelled as a skeptic is something of an unwarranted compliment.
77080. r.pauli at 05:22 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Thanks so much for name and shame. Generally, I think it is too late to be nice. You are exceedingly polite and civil toward these people - many of whom have received funding and support from carbon energy industries - both directly and indirectly. To me, it appears their scientific ineptitude is a poor cover for their ethical shortcomings.
77081. muoncounter at 05:15 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Rickoxo#382 "hoping for a bit more in terms of argument by evidence or reason" There are ~170 skeptic arguments addressed by evidence and reason. See 'most used skeptic arguments.' "... follow it up by saying people who dispute global warming science generally do so not based on science but more on finances." Let's say that there is some basis in experience for that generalization. For example, AAPG's position is distinctly lukewarm: Certain climate simulation models predict that the warming trend will continue, as reported through NAS, AGU, AAAS, and AMS. AAPG respects these scientific opinions but wants to add that the current climate warming projections could fall within well-documented natural variations in past climate and observed temperature data. These data do not necessarily support the maximum-case scenarios forecast in some models. ... AAPG supports reducing emissions from fossil fuel use as a worthy goal. (However, emission reduction has an economic cost, which must be compared to the potential environmental gain). I used to be in AAPG, so I can imagine the debate that went into forging this tepid statement. Note that they clearly admit warming is occurring and that reducing fossil fuel will make a difference in the continued trend. But they come right out with the reason for their hedge: reduced emissions due to decreased fossil fuel consumption may negatively impact the oil industry. A clear example of 'not by science, but by finance.' This from an organization whose past president gave a speech detailing the two strongest motivators in the oil industry: Greed and envy.
77082. CBDunkerson at 05:03 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Rickoxo, you're reading in things that aren't there. "it's a bit odd that your first thought is maybe the guy is a petroleum geologist" I didn't say that. I listed petroleum geologists and actively publishing climatologists as the likely 'outer bounds' of the range of response which could be found within different scientific communities since I had no idea who 'Marque' was. You may also note that I ASKED what scientific community was being referred to... making your claim that I assumed one seem somewhat odd. "you follow it up by saying people who dispute global warming science generally do so not based on science but more on finances" Given that the people most familiar with the science are least likely to dispute it and those who work in the fossil fuel industry are the most likely to do so I don't think that's an inaccurate generalization. For the record, citing statistics IS argument by evidence and reason. As to the 'maybe APS members are afraid to speak the truth' idea - I refer you again to the Doran study. It was strictly confidential and included (un-named) prominent 'skeptics'. Ergo, no reason for fear of a 'backlash'... yet still less than 10% of participants believed that humans were not causing significant warming. Alot of the participants in the Doran study were in the physical sciences. The listed percentages in the study are; geochemistry - 15.5% geophysics - 12% oceanography - 10.5% General geology, hydrology/hydrogeology, and paleontology - 5 to 7% each climatology - 5% Ergo, it's results would seem likely to correlate fairly well to the APS membership.
77083. SEAN O at 04:31 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       Here is a little perspective on the APS petition from Greenfyre's: http://greenfyre.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/aps2.jpg
77084. shoyemore at 04:29 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Addendum: The response to Richard Muller's comment on An Inconvenient Truth refers to it as a book rather than a film. Minor nit.
77085. shoyemore at 04:25 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Is it fair to put Richard Muller on there? I know he was been idiotically repeating denialist talking points, but his science has so far been confirmatory of climate change. There is a bit of hope for Muller ... he does not seem to have yet totally sacrificed his scientific integrity like some of the others.
       Response: [JC] I did think about this. Muller is not a skeptic in the sense of being skeptical about manmade global warming. But he has promoted a number of myths like the conflation of "Mike's Nature trick" with "hide the decline" (which are two separate things). A more accurate title for this resource may be "Purveyors of Climate Myths". But well, that just doesn't roll of the tongue, does it?
77086. Rickoxo at 04:10 AM on 19 August 2011
       There is no consensus
       The scientific community reference was tied to the American Physical Society newsletter article, the community is of physics scientists (see posts 76-79 in this thread for the original links). So again, here's a guy not in the Petroleum Geologists society, but head of an APS newsletter saying there's considerable presence of people in the APS who do not agree with the IPCC. And while I appreciate the response, it's a bit odd that your first thought is maybe the guy is a petroleum geologist and you follow it up by saying people who dispute global warming science generally do so not based on science but more on finances. Are you making that critique of Marque? Based on what evidence? I'm hoping for a bit more in terms of argument by evidence or reason rather than hearing people saying everything skeptics says is wrong and they only say it because of money. Here's a similar response to yours from someone else at the APS: http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2008/07/18/202891/american-physical-society-reaffirms-it-is-incontrovertible-human-emissions-are-warming-the-globe-and-must-be-cut-beginning-now/ Given the Marque-must-be-fired theme for suggesting that there are doubters in the midst, doesn't that seem to indicate at least the possibility of an environment under which other APS members might be less than forthcoming in discussing their exact thoughts on GWS if they disagreed with the IPCC conclusions?
77087. CBDunkerson at 03:50 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Heh, Dennis's post made me imagine a potential scene at one of Monckton's lectures; Monckton: 'Now, this is a graph from the IPCC showing their projected temperature rise based on CO2 increases.' Audience member: 'No it's not. That graph isn't in ANY IPCC report. You created it.' Monckton: 'Ok, they didn't make the graph itself, but I developed it entirely based on formulas and values in the IPCC reports.' Another audience member: 'No you didn't. You assumed feedback effects were linear and would all be completed within 20 years... both of which contradict IPCC statements.' Monckton: 'Put down the damned cell phones and just listen!' :]
       Response:

       [dana1981] We've also got a plan to do a page/series on "skeptic" falsified graphs, like the Monckton IPCC figure you reference.  So many ideas, so little time...

77088. Dennis at 03:37 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       John, this is such an excellent resource that it could be a site of its own. In fact, I recommend an extension to the smartphone app for this. Anytime one of these figures appears in a public forum and starts their climastrology talk, a questioner could open this up, find that comment and ask them to resond then and there to the scientific rebuttal you have provided.
       Response: [JC] Dennis, that's an evil suggestion - both way too much work and way too good to ignore!
77089. angliss at 03:16 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Steve Milloy of JunkScience (in)fame(y) could use some more visibility and he certainly belongs in the list.
77090. muoncounter at 03:15 AM on 19 August 2011
       Arctic icemelt is a natural cycle
       CBD: "... it does not." An understatement. Kay et al 2011 say just the opposite of Ryan's claim: On all timescales examined (2–50+ years), the most extreme negative observed late 20th century trends cannot be explained by modeled natural variability alone. ... In a warming world, CCSM4 shows that multi-decadal negative trends increase in frequency and magnitude, and that trend variability on 2–10 year timescales increases. --emphasis added
77091. muoncounter at 02:29 AM on 19 August 2011
       Arctic icemelt is a natural cycle
       Ryan#46: "any current trend is also natural," Prove it. Historic records, consistent with modern measurements, say different. Looks like the 'natural cycle' is flat and the recent melt is anything but natural.
77092. Bob Lacatena at 01:43 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       17, RyanStarr, Oh, and "discussing" Postma isn't being skeptical, it's being just on this side of rational compared to the (-Snip-). Holding up "discussion" of Postma as a demonstration of true skepticism is a complete joke.
       Response:

       [DB] Tsk.  Too far.

77093. CBDunkerson at 01:41 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Ryan, actually we DO exercise scientific skepticism here. However, I am starting to notice a pattern where you say completely false things and then seem to avoid looking at or responding to any evidence to the contrary cited. If you think that is skepticism then you are doing it wrong.
77094. Bob Lacatena at 01:36 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       17, RyanStarr, If you are skeptical of Mann, then you have a lot of reading to do, beginning with all of his actual science publications. You should also have a very firm grasp of what PCA is, how he used (or misused) it, as well as all of the myriad, gross weaknesses in McIntyre's and Wegman's and other's attacks. You should also recognize how silly the attacks on him are. They are all focused on one ten year old graph that has been validated and reinforced repeatedly over the intervening years, while all assaults on it have been utter failures. Science has moved on, and anyone who says "Mann! Mann! Hockey-stick" is lost in denial. If you're so skeptical, actually look and educate yourself. And I know you haven't based on what you said about Mann. That particular case is absolutely cut and dry, and for you to say what you have says you don't know and don't understand, and since all of the information is readily available, that means that you just haven't bothered to look, or to do so with a properly skeptical eye. Please get a clue.
77095. RyanStarr at 01:18 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       CBD are you saying that at "Skeptical Science" we don't exercise scientific skepticism? Or exercise it selectively. I'm skeptical of Mann, Gore, and I'm skeptical of that Postma guy. At the real skeptic sites they've already discussed him, questioned his work, they do that, even though he was skeptical of AGW.
       Response:

       [DB] "At the real skeptic sites they've already discussed him"

       At real skeptical sites, like Skeptical Science, all is viewed through the lense of the science itself, not through ideology nor climastrology (no mythical "cycles").

77096. ClimateWatcher at 01:13 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Roger Pielke?
77097. ClimateWatcher at 01:12 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       Where's Pat Michaels?
       Response:

       [dana1981] On the aforementioned 'unpublished' list, though I got his entry ready for publication last night.  We must have neglected to publish it.  We'll add him to the sks.to/skeptics page shortly.

77098. KR at 01:12 AM on 19 August 2011
       It's waste heat
       mullumhillbilly - The disproportionate amount of energy retained by GHG emissions versus combustion is because the GHG's retain solar energy (fusion), not just release a bit of chemical energy (combustion). By comparison to any amount of coal burnt, the sun is an essentially limitless energy input. A gift that just keeps on giving, unfortunately... I will note that Gedankenexperiments regarding greenhouses, glass plates, etc., have led a number of commenters astray - glass greenhouse analogies really don't capture the details of radiative physics and energy flows.
77099. CBDunkerson at 01:11 AM on 19 August 2011
       Arctic icemelt is a natural cycle
       RyanStarr, most of what you claim this study says or suggests... it does not. Perhaps you should read it before commenting further on 'what it means'.
77100. rustneversleeps at 01:05 AM on 19 August 2011
       A new SkS resource: climate skeptics and their myths
       My! What a diverse group they are! :p

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