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nigelj at 10:58 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
Scaddenp @48, yes. I have written detailed letters to Labour imploring them to be practical and remember centre voters. If you don't win enough votes you can't to a thing. Helen Clark understood it. However there is the risk you end up with weak policies, so its not an easy balance.
Lian Dann is right. The underlying plan is probably just a cgt on investment property, probably a sellable proposition. Clobbering small business is not.
I agree I think it was a mistake to put socio-economic values in it the GND. I think what has happened in America is growing tribalism, and The Democrats are hurting form Clintons loss, and have reacted by swinging left. Some media commentary is saying this. As a result they have sort of exploded, and dumped everything possible in the Green New Deal possibly without thinking of the strategic implications.
However The Democrats did need a "branding exercise" of some sort because its become unclear what they really stand for. But better to keep it separate from environmental stuff.
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scaddenp at 10:19 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
nigelj, I think things are better here because the political fights have always looked to the center and swinging voters. The policies of the extremes on either end cant be sold to the electorate and politicians know it. If for instance Labour goes ahead with a CGT, they will be committing politcal suicide if they dont make it a lot more palatable to the right (or at least centre-right). You already see the processes at work for that. I doubt even the Greens (at least ones with any political experience) would try and sell something like Green New Deal to the electorate.
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scaddenp at 10:13 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
OPOF - literature doesn't usually conflate moral foundation with values but I guess idea is pretty similar. The idea that one can "govern" others is fundamentally at odds with concept. Foundations/values are what govern the pre-conscious reaction to something. Since it is pre-conscious, it is what it is, and you cant change it. What happens in the conscious mind after that is largely rationalization of the pre-conscious judgement.
Helpfulness will be used to justify that conclusion (eg a right-wing denier is going claim that peoples job, hard-earned income, and freedoms are at jeopardy thanks to leftist plot. Spot the rationalization?)
You arent going to change that with discourse. I ask again, can you think of any argument that would change your values to that of a red-state denier?
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John Hartz at 09:57 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
scaddenp: recommended supplemental reading:
Our kids need us to act fast on climate change by Heather McGhee, Grist, Feb 27, 2019
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nigelj at 09:47 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
Scaddenp @44
"The drivers which switch behaviour though depend on working with human psychology rather convincing people to do things because it is "morally right".
True in the main. One example in NZ is conservatives, despite being tribal, and historically a bit sceptical of immigration and multiculturalism have become more accepting of immigration and multi culturalism, and why? Not so much moral lecturing I admit. It's the potential to make money! And to be seen to be open minded?
But I think over time this all alters the psche as well, and deeper lingering xenophobic attitudes possibly disappear as well.
I say "in the main" because it seems to escape you that moral judgements are inescapable. Eg most of us agree stealing is wrong. This is appealing to morality and both sides have reached agreement on it. I think the issue here is it takes considerable time to solidify society wide agreement on basic morals and elements of criminal law.
"What is hard to do (impossible), is change the voter of a tribal elector. (Betrayal, Disrespect). And unfortunately a host of other things including attitudes to race where it is tied into tribal identity (apparently so in much of US)."
Yeah true, tribalism can become like a vicious self reinforcing cycle and then we have a war. Terrible thing. America are falling into this cycle.
How far can people bend? Take the UN development goals (and forget the UN label). I could believe the majority of conservatives could embrace these. There's nothing to suggest they are alien to underlying values of fairness, purity, authority etc. The main sticking point is how much should one country help another? And also how they are achieved? Is itindividual initiative or state action, and here conservatives are suspicious of "big government".
Now here is where we have a big sticking point because some things require some level of "big government", eg universal healthcare. No matter how much we try to find a psychological or economic mechanism to justify universal healthcare that appeals to conservatives (eg it gives us a strong productive population) it still comes up with a, ideological fight about big v small government ideology. How the hell does one resolve that?
Personally I think we have to make a rational case for things like universal healthcare and hope most people accept it. Fortunately in NZ both sides do seem to accept "moderately sized government" and the fight is around the edges of issues, and is not as tribal and ideologically driven as America. We are a pretty pragmatic lot in NZ.
OPOF,
Helping others is a fine basic value to encourage. I think it sits at the top of the values pyramid. The issue is conservative resentment of things like tax payer funded welfare programmes. It seems to conflcit with their deeply seated disllike of so called big government, however fortunately a rational economic case case can be made for many government programmes thus avoiding too much moralising on it.
Not that moralising and rational / economic cases are mutually exclusive. I think we can do both.
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One Planet Only Forever at 09:25 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
scaddenp,
All I am saying is that all Values can be governed by improved awareness and understanding of the essential importance of helping Others including helping to develop sustainable improvements, and make required corrections of unsustainable harmful developments, for the benefit of the future of humanity.
There are indeed competing values. A set of six have been pretty well identified by studies and been presented comprehensively by Jonathan Haidt in "The Righteous Mind". What was not presented in the book is the importance of Helpfulness governing how all the other Values are Valued.
All of those Values can be, and need to be, Governed by the Value of 'Helpfulness - Do no harm', which is One of the Six.
The other values related to Fairness, Loyalty, Purity/Cleanliness, Acceptance of Hierarchy, and Liberty can all be understood to be able to be limited/governed in their acceptability by Helpfulness. Making any of the other Values more important than Helpfulness is not helpful, and can actually be very harmful. That can be understood by everyone.
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Ger at 08:46 AM on 1 March 2019Prices are not Enough
Some research done in Asia of the potential of CO2eq avoidance gives between 18.7 to 22 tons/ha/year CO2 equivalent, which can be reduced with water management (60%), removal of straw from field (30%) and slow release fertilizers. Mainly CH4 is the source.
source: Vietnam average rice cultivation emissions (https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/959124), thO2 is from own calculation for a particular area in the Mekong from the Biomass resource map ESMAP 2018.
If RedBaron is mentioning 5 - 20 ton, it will be CH4 and N2O avoidance, not so much CO2. As for avoiding CH4 etc., a mineral book keeping method does work, regulating how much minerals are optimal instead of dumping tons of manure and loads of artifical fertilizers onto pastures.
Pushing a Emissions Trading System ETS where (developing) countries can trade their (simple) avoided GHG gasses with developed countries to fund better equipment (power plants, tractors) and infrastructure (dykes, roads, efficient transport, irrigation).
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scaddenp at 07:07 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
Well as per my comment elsewhere, I am not a fan. While stated green goals are laudable, it has a social agenda likely to simply alienate the centre and further polarize the politics. It makes me angry to see politicians (of all colours) choose to further cultural wars on an issue as important climate change.
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scaddenp at 06:57 AM on 1 March 2019The Big Picture (2010 version)
I cant see anything either. Doesnt matter whether I login to wordpress or google, I see nothing. You arent going to get any traction unless you put it on public site. It is likely you can see it because you are are owner and it believes you to be logged in. Trying opening it with a different browser from the one you log into it with. I suspect you also need to change the visibility settings for your blog.
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scaddenp at 06:48 AM on 1 March 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
MA Rodgers - I grabbed the "Sustainable Energy without all the hot air" graph primarly because I knew it existed and was in a hurry. Unfortunately, the graph is developed over several pages to explain all its subtlety. This page has similar data (to 2011) but lacks the population-perspective.
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scaddenp at 06:41 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
Biological determination is relatively new hypothesis, but immutability of values has been long observed. Whatever the underlying mechanisms, they seem set at an early age.
OPOF - what I am claiming is about values. Behaviours are mutable - provide there isnt a perceived conflict with internal values. Which is just as well because behaviours are primarily what we want to change. Changing attitudes to plastic are a good example of where things want to go. So.. these are achievable:
Recycling - if it has become the accepted thing, (people look down their noses if you dont), then a social instincts easily rule. Heavy handed forcing though might provoke backlash based on perceived loss of freedom.
Switching to electric vehicles. Same as above but if EV also has status then so much the easier.
Buying renewable power - carbon tax is your friend since buying renewable is avoidance of tax. You might even get better uptake if carbon tax revenue was spent on something reprehensible ( but a lot harder to get the tax into law).The drivers which switch behaviour though depend on working with human psychology rather convincing people to do things because it is "morally right".
What is hard to do (impossible), is change the voter of a tribal elector. (Betrayal, Disrespect). And unfortunately a host of other things including attitudes to race where it is tied into tribal identity (apparently so in much of US).
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nigelj at 05:52 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
"It targets fossil fuel use as the main problem, but animal agriculture is the main problem...fossil fuel is the lesser problem...by a fair margin."
Looks like you are wrong.
"On top of those two problems is the largest problem of all...overpopulation. The greenhouse gas footprint of humans, 7.3 billion or so (last count), is the only problem that can't be solved by fiat, policy or acceptable pain."
In fact population is already below replacement levels in countries like S Korea and Germany and we know what policies have driven this. Could be expanded globally if we wanted. The population problem is not unsolvable
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Sunspot at 05:36 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
Current world population is estimated to be 7.7 billion. (Google)
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william5331 at 05:24 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
Excellent program, much needed and likely to be very effective if followed. Unfortunately a complete waste of time and effort. https://mtkass.blogspot.com/2018/01/wasted-effort.html
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AEBanner at 05:01 AM on 1 March 2019The Big Picture (2010 version)
New thoughts about the cause of global warming
To the Moderator
I'm sorry you have had difficulty accessing my post on wordpress. I have again tried the following link, via Google, and it loaded without any trouble at all.
https://wordpress.com/post/hotgas.club/50
I agree that is somewhat pretentious to call my idea a theory, so I have re-phrased it simply to be "new thoughts". Clearly, I cannot cite previous work because, as far as I know, this is original. However, the figures on which the work is entirely based come directly from the BP Statistical database, as qouted in my post.
I really should be grateful for a critical review of what I have written.
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swampfoxh at 04:02 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
I'm confounded. I've been tracking the literature on this site for six years. Where is it that the Green New Deal is something special? There is not a single new idea in any of it, unless we consider its ourageousness, "new". It targets fossil fuel use as the main problem, but animal agriculture is the main problem...fossil fuel is the lesser problem... by a fair margin. On top of those two problems is the largest problem of all...overpopulation. The greenhouse gas footprint of humans, 7.3 billion or so (last count), is the only problem that can't be solved by fiat, policy or acceptable pain. So, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall not see the future.
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One Planet Only Forever at 03:34 AM on 1 March 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
scaddenp and nigelj,
As I have mentioned, my guiding objective is improving awareness and understanding to help develop sustainable improvements for the future of humanity.
A large diversity of sub-values can be gathered under that Universal Rule.
And no matter what pre-disposition a person is born with, they can learn to develop within that governing principle.
The human behaviour problems that develop are almost certainly due to the envirnment the individuals experienced and developed in. 'Breaking Cycles of Harm' is a well established understanding. And groups like AA rely on the ability of people to, with personal effort and support, behave different.
As more people become aware of that, the systems will change, and so will the types of people that develop in the socioeconomic-political systems.
Admittedly a few 'highly-resistant to correction' people will need to be kept from being able to significantly affect or influence Others (be kept from participating in public competitions for development of impressions relative to Others). But the majority should be expected to want to be more helpful, less harmful, by improving their awareness and understanding.
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AEBanner at 01:44 AM on 1 March 2019The Big Picture (2010 version)
Energy Theory for Global Warming
I should like to offer an alternative theory to explain global warming.Please visit my post at https://wordpress.com/post/hotgas.club/50
I should like to receive your comments here.
AEBanner
Moderator Response:[DB] Even after a mandatory login with Google, your site would not load. Unless you have observational evidence to support it, your conjecture does not rise to the level of a theory.
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John Hartz at 01:16 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
Suggested supplemental reading:
The Hard Lessons of Dianne Feinstein’s Encounter with the Young Green New Deal Activists, Opinion by Bill McKibben, New Yorker Magazine, Feb 23, 2019
The Climate Science Behind The Green New Deal - A Layperson's Explanation by Marshall Shepherd, Science, Forbes, Feb 24, 2019
This is an emergency, damn it by David Roberts, Energy & Environment, Vox, Feb 23, 2019
A Green New Deal Is Technologically Possible. Its Political Prospects Are Another Question. by Lisa Friedman & Trip Gabriel, Politics. New York Times, Feb 21, 2019
Don't trust the adults in the room on climate change, Opinion by Kate Aronoff, Comment is Free, Guardian, Feb 25, 2019
A Green New Deal is fiscally responsible. Climate inaction is not, Opinion by Justin Talbot Zorn, Ben Beachy & Rhiana Gunn-Wright, Comment is Free, Guardian, Feb 25, 2019
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Evan at 00:43 AM on 1 March 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
I think the following sentences from this article spell it out well and deserve to be repeated.
"How much more global warming can occur before its net physical impacts become unacceptably negative?
The science community’s answer is that we’ve already passed that point; that it’s time to act now."
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michael sweet at 23:18 PM on 28 February 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
I think Dana's commentaries are always good.
In the USA I think most people feel bad for other countries but in the end will not do anything to help out those countries. Suggesting that "curbing climate change could also prevent trillions of dollars in damages globally", while true, does not appeal to many voters
With the cost of sea level rise on the US East coast alone you could justify saying curbing climate change would save the USA alone trillions. Add in the wildfires, floods and increased hurricanes affecting the USA already and people will listen.
The cost of the GND will be lower than the cost of currently occuring damage. In addition the cost of the GND is less than current subsidies for the fossil fuel industry. Emphasing that installing renewable energy saves money rather than discussing how much it costs appeals to more people. Renewable energy will be cheaper to install until at least 50% of the electrical system is renewable.
Emphasize that most of the electrical generating system (especially coal plants) is old and will have to be replaced in any case. The choice is buiilding new fossil plants or new cheaper renewable plants.
Emphasize the benifits of the GND, do not focus on hypothetical problems from the fossiil fuel industry.
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Postkey at 20:54 PM on 28 February 2019There’s one key takeaway from last week’s IPCC report
Does anyone know if this is the case?
" . . . the IPCC report is faulty, based on ten year old CO² emissions data . . . yet the IPCC report neglected to include the last ten years of emissions in it's calculations."
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MA Rodger at 18:25 PM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
Correction to #18.
Of course a 1750-2008 integration would be 'above 1t(C) not 10t(C). That does allow the possibility for it being, say, an integration over a shorter period, perhaps since 1900, and showing tons(CO2) not tons(C).
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MA Rodger at 18:19 PM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
scaddenp @17,
Certainly, if it were Cumulative Emissions it would have a very different shape from the Current Emissions graph. It doesn't help itself by labelling its y-axis "Average pollution rate (tons CO2/y per person)" and no title.
But even with that I struggle. I note from the source (where it's Figure 12) that it dates back to 2008. (I haven't found a web-page using the graph that may better put it in context.) Cumulative Per-Capita CO2 are in excess of 300 tons(carbon) by 2010 for UK US & Germany. (A graphic based on CDIAC data is here - usually 2 clicks to 'download your attachment') Integrating over, say since 1750, 260 years would put all three over 10t(C)/year/capita. And the UK would be ahead of US. Mind, China would be a tenth the level, about 1t(C)/year/capita which is about what is shown.
So it remains all rather odd to me.
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nigelj at 16:52 PM on 28 February 2019What's in the Green New Deal? Four key issues to understand
Nice concise analysis of the main issues. I think agonising and debating over a cost benefit analysis is not the right way to look at this climate problem, because the debating and agonising will never stop. Instead look at total costs and their feasibility and impacts on the economy. Studies like the Stern Report estimate changing to renewable energy would cost 2% of gdp per year, over 30 years. Do it in a compressed 15 year time frame and it would be 4% a year.
This is almost identical to what America spends on the military each year. That is not going to bankrupt the economy, because the rest of the economy could be trimmed and it would barely be noticed provided everyone got behind the issue. It's well short of war spending during WW2.
It's more a question of how the GND is all best funded. The GND proposes a big government spend, which in turn has options of deficit spending, tax increases, or federal reserve credit creation. Alternatively the process could be driven largely by carbon fee and dividend or cap and trade.
I come down on the side of carbon fee and dividend, because it looks politically feasible, and less of a problem than governments taking on more debt, but time is running out. If people cant get it sorted out, the only realstic option of meeting Paris time frames could well be a massive government funded infrastructure programme!
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nigelj at 16:02 PM on 28 February 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
OPOF and Scaddenp. Academic research suggests people are born either liberal or conservative as below:
academicearth.org/electives/born-republican-born-democrat/
So perhaps core values might be pretty fixed and with a biological origin. But I know conservatives sometimes accept liberal positions and vice versa, on specific issues. People often get a little bit more conservative as they age and circumstances change. So some level of significant change is also clearly possible at least on some specific issues. The mechanism is obviously complicated.
But I'm all for finding common ground etc as well.
None of these things are mutually exclusive.
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scaddenp at 11:49 AM on 28 February 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
Depends on what you mean by "changing their minds". Core values, (Schwatz framework or similar) nope. Not in the ordinary course of things, or more to point by methods that only involve discourse. Happy to be presented with empirical evidence to the contrary for someone over age of around 7.
Consider what it would take to change your values to that of a right-wing Red-state voter. A bit of a struggle?
Far better to recognize that and work to create change within the context of other peoples values, working with them not against them.
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scaddenp at 10:42 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
MA rodgers - different quantity - it is not CO2 per capita but historical contribition to CO2 emissions (ie integrated from pre-industrial). Which countries have contributed most to our currently elevated CO2. UK got an early start in the industrial revolution.
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MA Rodger at 10:17 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
scaddenp @12,
I'm not sure that graphic is up-to-date or even accurate. The US emitting close to the UK per capita figures? Germany per capita lower than the UK? China's total emissions less than the US?
This one seems a better representaion.
Moderator Response:[DB] The image is not displaying for some reasons. Link to it added.
Image display issues fixed.
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scaddenp at 09:57 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
Well nuclear war could be beneficial for climate - removes a lot of FF users and the associated fire and dust have option for massive (if short term) aerosol load in the atmosphere (aka nuclear winter) while contributing comparatively very little heat.
Personally I would have rather thought the point of climate solutions was to improve the lot for humanity so I dont think this one stacks up.
The increase in CO2 since pre-industrial works results in the equivalent of 4 hiroshimo bombs per second. I suspect nowherethis was expecting a different number.
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One Planet Only Forever at 09:50 AM on 28 February 2019A Swedish Teenager's Compelling Plea on Climate
There is a misconception that people cannot change their minds.
Some of the more recent writings on the topic are trending towards the understanding that each person is born with a pre-disposition, but the environment they grow up in can make significant changes to that pre-disposed starting point and foundation (no one is born to be harmful).
Sally Kohn's "The Opposite of Hate" is only one of many books exposing that the 'systems' are creating problems.
The developed socioeconomic political systems will only stop resisting correction 'after they are corrected'.
And I agree that the correction requires public support, which means changing the minds of people to develop heartfelt pursuit of helping develop sustainable improvements for the future of humanity.
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Daniel Bailey at 09:07 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
Sigh. From 1945-2009 there were 2,402 surface and underground nuclear weapon tests. Of those, 527 were conducted above-ground. Of those, some 458 were conducted in the first 20 years of nuclear weapons testing.
Looking at those peak years of testing, the forcing from those 20 years of peak tests of the nuclear weapons on the Earth came to about one eight-millionth of a Watt per square meter (8 x 10-6 W m-2) of power.
For comparison, the 1.8 Watts per square meter (1.8 W m-2) of CO2 radiative forcing as of 2011 generates approximately twenty nine billion, trillion Joules of energy (29 x 1021 J) over the Earth's surface in a single year, or more than ten thousand times as much energy in a year than the entire combined nuclear weapons program of the world had generated in those 20 years.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuctestsum.html
Annex B Report from 2008
http://www.laradioactivite.com/site/pages/RadioPDF/unscear_artificielle.pdf
https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/aggi/
https://skepticalscience.com/nuclear.html -
scaddenp at 08:55 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
"Nowhere have I seen any peer-reviewed, difinitive science to demonstrate these Draconian measures (mostly to reduce CO2) actually makes a measurable difference."
Draconian is rhetoric. What makes ending FF subsidies, transition to renewables "draconian". We havent seen any CO2 reductions to make a difference but the IPCC reports WG1 and WG3 are full of peer-reviewed papers on why increased CO2 is causing warming; why changes of GHG have changed climate in past; and what effectiveness of mitigation strategies IPCC wG3. I am guessing that you didnt look very hard. Since you have come to this site, then hopefully you are not just looking for some shallow excuse for inaction.
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scaddenp at 08:47 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
If you look at who is creating the problem however, the population problem is about the too many rich westerners rather than too many africans. It is the affluent west which are largely responsible for all the extra CO2 in the atmosphere.
It could become too many rich Chinese, but the important part of the equation is the extent to which increasing affluence leads to increased FF use.
You can prove things in mathematics but not science. Do you demand the such nonsensical certainty before you take a doctors advice? Demanding absolute certainty before any action is taken is an impossible criteria and is frankly a rhetorical excuse for inaction.
There is some fundimental physics at work here. We directly measure the increase in irradiation of the globes surface from increased GHG. If you decrease GHG, that radiation goes down. Now in summer your hemisphere gets more radiation at surface than at winter. Do you need proof that decreasing radiation in winter will make it cooler? Ditto for decreasing GHG. Supporting evidence without resorting to physics, would be to note that in other times when GHG levels have been lower, then the climate got colder and warmed again when they rose.
I am guessing "promoting taxpayer funded projects" is an idealogical beef. By all means suggest an effective alternative way to reduce FF consumption which is compatiable with your ideology. This thread is a good place to do it.
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nowhearthis at 07:08 AM on 28 February 2019New research, February 4-10, 2019
Special thanks to Red Barron for an extensive discussion on the issue. I'm still studying it and your links.
While this page may not specifically state "solutions", much of the debate revolves around things purported as "solutions". Before making major changes to society, perhaps we should validate they are worthwhile. I beleve those affected will demand that. Nowhere have I seen any peer-reviewed, difinitive science to demonstrate these Draconian measures (mostly to reduce CO2) actually makes a measurable difference. All I hear are promises and avoidance - THAT IS A PROBLEM.
We see policies proffered by "progressive" politicians, promoting taxpayer funded projects (rail, transit, bike paths, fuel source shifts) with no proof they are effective. The issue has become a religion and an us vs them sinkhole. Until skeptics and supporters alike can be shown proof these sacrifices work without question, the debate will continue.
Red Barron brings up a powerful point: The remediation equation is more complex than what politicians promote and much of the answer exists outside the developed societies. Further, those who believe the problem is anthropogenic, must acknowledge our massive planetary population increases, offset those 1st world sacrifices sold as "solutions". Planetary population is 7.5b and has doubled in my lifetime, the U.S. represents a little over 4% of that. Big players like China, India, Pacific Rim, Middle East, etc. aren't making the sacrifices sold to us as "solutions". We can't do it alone and the Paris framework wasn't a realistic answer IMO.
Once again, I ask: Is there a paper, study, analysis, etc. that PROVES (not promises or predicts) we can reverse climate change? -or- If sound mitigation methods exist (as Red Barron posits); is it realistic to think we can get the entire planet to make the sacrifices that will drastically degrade their current quality of life for future promises? DOUBTFUL!
This needs to be figured out; wars have started over much less. Raising the question: What is the effect of a few hundred nuclear detonations in the atmosphere and do we have a solution for that?
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scaddenp at 06:31 AM on 28 February 2019Prices are not Enough
Michael, I dont think RB has pushed farming as silver bullet, but as a potentially important "wedge" to help. When you have food production that depends on growing grain to feed to animals/birds, then there is definitely carbon advantage to convert land use from grain production to direct managed grazing.
Of more concern to me here in NZ, is whether it is possible to reproduce carbon capture observed in prairie soils outside of that environment and how much does it depend on grass types with limited climate range? The only places where grazing has recorded a soil carbon gain instead of loss here is where grazing was introduced onto badly degraded soils formerly used for grain. As RB has pointed out, there is no shortage of badly degraded soils to work with however.
I am persuaded by literature that he has provided, that a lot more work should go into research of low-input managed grazing techniques with different pasture types, rather than the high-input irrigated grazing that typifies most of our dairy systems. Our meat production occurs almost exclusively on low input, hill country, ex-forest soils and so far I cant any find any examples of enhanced soil carbon in these systems.
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scaddenp at 06:16 AM on 28 February 2019Prices are not Enough
jcfanclub - the predominant carbon prices mechanisms discussed are:
1/ fee and dividend. You tax the carbon and return 100% of what is collected to tax payers on per capita basis. If your FF consumption is "average" then what you get back in dividend should cover the increased cost of FF. However, it creates powerful incentives to reduce FF use and thus benefit from the dividend. I cannot see how anyone could "perpetuate the problem" so as to gain from it.
2/ ETS. Emitters have to buy carbon credits from carbon sequesterers. That certainly creates a convenient revenue scheme for those able to sequester carbon, but how is it possible from them game the system to encourage emissions?
I find it hard to imagine a carbon tax scheme where the revenue beneficiaries could work to perpetuate emissions. Can you provide an example?
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william5331 at 05:29 AM on 28 February 2019Prices are not Enough
I think the author is way off the mark. The only system likely to actually achieve the aim of reducing our carbon output is Tax and Dividend a la James Hansen
There are a couple of vital aspects of this policy.
1/ The tax can be small to the point of insignificance at first but built into it is an increase each year. This can be arithmetic (1,2,3,4...) or geometric (1,2,4,8...) but the inevidability is the important part. People will be divesting from fossil fuel long before it is an economic necessity to avoid taking a 'hair cut'. Where will they shift their money to. Predominately to renewable energy.
2/ Insteas of stifling the economy and making the government the bad guys (look at Macron in France with his fuel tax. Jeeesh!!) money is put into the hands of the poorest who will spend it all just to keep their heads above water. The government becomes the hero of the people. Mony is not put into the hands of the rich which they squrrel away as happens with, for instance, Cap and Trade. What the economists call velocity (the rate money circulates in the economy) increases instead of decreasing as with C&T.
https://mtkass.blogspot.com/2009/12/jim-hansens-climate-change-solution.html
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nigelj at 05:27 AM on 28 February 2019Prices are not Enough
MS Sweet, thank's. I took the 5 - 20 tonnes number in good faith. I hadn't seen that page of discussion on soil carbon issues. Perhaps someone can clarify exactly how the 5 - 20 tonnes figure is derived?
Red Baron mentions it in relation to the research :"Global Cooling by Grassland Soils of the Geological Past and Near Future" on the page you linked to. I had a quick scan and the only thing I could find was that there was evidence in Australia that better grasslands management could sequester 15% of their emissions. Not a silver bullet, but not insignificant either. Of course this number only applies to Australia.
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jcfanclub at 04:05 AM on 28 February 2019Prices are not Enough
When you are talking about economic incentives you should also consider the incentives of those who collect the carbon taxes or whatever. What's to prevent them from perpetuating the problem the tax is designed to solve? If the problem goes away, so does their revenue stream.
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BeezelyBillyBub at 23:47 PM on 27 February 2019Prices are not Enough
*U.S. = #1 Exporter of Coal Gas Oil*
In 2017 U.S. coal exports to Asia went up 61%.
Our oil will soon run out and we need Venezuela's oil. Many will die for it.
All the world's energy growth is in Asia India Africa, and not here.They want to live like us more than they care about the climate.
*Why North America and Europe Do Not Matter Anymore*
Electricity = 25% of total world primary energy.
Energy Use By Nation:
Canada = 360 Giga Joules / person
___ U.S. = 300 Giga Joules / person
__ China = 120 Giga Joules / person
___ India = 90 Giga Joules / person
___ Brazil = 60 Giga Joules / person
___ Africa = 20 Giga Joules / person ur
Euro-America demand is slow compared to Africa India and Asia.
Solar + Wind = 6% of electricity production worldwide.
Electricity production = 25% of world primary energy.
Solar + Wind 1990 - 2018 grew to 1% of world primary energy.
Solar/Wind 2019 = 1% of energy after 30 years of hype.
Emissions went up 60% in 30 years.
Food + Meat = 24% of emissions.
World concrete = 4 billion tons / yr
World steel = 2 billion tons / yr
World sand = 11 - 15 billion tons / yr
Open sand piracy is the norm over there. They just take your sand and go.
It doesn't matter what North America and Europe does for emissions.
World energy demand growth is in Africa and Asia. They are all young and eager.
India's energy demand grows as much as all the energy used in Canada every 32 months.
Indian coal is going to go up to drive the economy, even if they convert it to gas.
China's coal has grown from 1 billion to 4 billion tons / yr in 30 yrs.
China coal is now down to 3.5 billion tons.
China is building 700 coal plants worldwide, not in China.
Many of these plants convert coal to gas.
Solar panels in Germany provide 90% of their rated power 11% of the time.
Wind turbines in Germany provide 90% of their rated power 20% of the time.
It doesn't matter that Denmark has the most wind turbines, they are only a few million people.
What matters is what's happening in India and Africa not here.
Coal and gas will still be 70% of their energy by 2040.
There are 30 million EVs and 1.2 billion gas vehicles on earth.
It will take 40 years to convert all the cars on earth.
The amount of batteries Tokyo will need during future Typhoons is staggering.
Batteries cannot be scaled up in time to make a difference to climate.
The Paris Agreement = Emissions go up from 35 billion tons to 50 billion tons by 2040.
The Paris Agreement will not be kept and you know it.
Emissions must go down 50% in 10 yrs + 100% in 20 yrs for 2 C.
Five of 13 major hothouse tipping points start below 2 C.
Runaway mass extinction cannot be stopped or reversed.
Krill cannot survive in many parts of the ocean without oxygen.
All ocean life depend on Krill.
The world wants the American lifestyle and we can't stop them.
China is buying up U.S. chip and bio tech right now.
The U.S. is now the number one exporter of gas, oil and coal.
In 2017 U.S. coal exports to Asia went up 61%.
All the U.S. will have left is its guns and fracking gear.
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BeezelyBillyBub at 23:47 PM on 27 February 2019Prices are not Enough
Corporations, NGOs and governments have been fixing climate for 30 yrs.
Emissions went up 60%.
That is why carbon dividends must be 100% private = 0% for corporations, NGOs and governments.
The tax must be on the rich and paid directly to the poor.
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michael sweet at 23:28 PM on 27 February 2019Prices are not Enough
Nigelj,.
In Red Baron's post a few days ago here, the first paper he cited to support his claim of 5-20 ton/ha/yr was:
Conservation practices to mitigate and adapt to climate change
Jorge A. Delgado, Peter M. Groffman, Mark A. Nearing, Tom Goddard, Don Reicosky, Rattan Lal, Newell R. Kitchen, Charles W. Rice, Dan Towery, and Paul Salon doi:10.2489/jswc.66.4.118A
It can be located here. (I had to look up the location).
Table 1 lists many methods of enhancing cabon uptake in soils. It has three categories: 0-2 t/ha/yr, 2-4 t/ha/yr and >4 t/ha/yr. Only 5 of 20 methods rise to the highest amount of sequestration. Of those 5, 4 involve removing land from cultivation and returning it to pasture or forest. The fifth is adding biochar to the soil which would involve enormous manufacture of biochar to implement on a widespread basis. Improved grazing pasture management, often cited by Red Baron as 5-20 t/ha/yr, is given as 0-2 t/ha/yr.
I do not have time to reread all of Red Baron's citations. They do not support his wild claim of 5-20 t/ha/yr of sequestration. I recommend you do not hang your hopes on farming being a silver bullet to solve AGW.
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AEBanner at 22:05 PM on 27 February 20192nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Thank you, Eclectic, for your helpful comments.
AEBanner
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AEBanner at 22:02 PM on 27 February 2019Global Surface Temperature: Going Down the Up Escalator, Part 1
This is eddieb.
Thank you, Bob Loblaw, for your very interesting and helpful contribution.
AEBanner
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MA Rodger at 20:37 PM on 27 February 20192019 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #8
stevestory @3,
Over a decade ago I was tasked with presenting an opinion for a green group on nuclear power. A bit of a poisoned chalice, I knew it would make some unhappy which ever side of the argument I came down on. Safety, weaponisation, cost, the absence of new-build plants (or plans for them), inflexibility of output - all could be argued both ways.
Happily, there was one area where there was no ambiguity - nuclear failed. The present technology on offer hardily had enough uranium to fuel itself at present-day levels (2% of world power) for a century. If nuclear use was scaled up to levels useful within global AGW mitigation policies, it would very quickly run out of fuel to power itself.
This fuel difficulty facing nuclear power is not widely cited as being a problem. Sources of uranium that would overcome the problem are all problems themselves (like fuel reprocessing or sourcing uranium from sea water, etc). We are thus left with conventional known uranium reserves that would last several decades at present useage.
It was a few years ago that I did this analysis. I note today that more uranium reserves have been identified since then. See here. Still producing 2% or less of global primary energy consumption, nuclear has a little over 100 years-worth of uranium reserves if uranium prices double. (Fuel cost is not a massive issue in the nuclear industry.)
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nigelj at 16:00 PM on 27 February 2019Prices are not Enough
Regarding Red Barons information. Soil carbon sequestration from enhanced farming systems equals 5 - 20 tonnes CO2 / hect / yr. I assume this is additional sequestration over the normal sequestration of carbon from standard farming systems.
This number doesn't mean a lot to me, so I have tried to see what it means in terms of how much of global emissions such farming systems might sequester per year (tried a google search but nothing). Quick and very rough back of envelope calculation : Lets assume additional CO2 sequestered is 10 tonnes CO2 / hect / yr.
Total global arable land plus open range grasslands equals approx. 3 billion hectares. Lets assume 1 billion is suitable for enhanced soil carbon sequestration so this equals 10 billion tonnes / CO2 / yr sequestered.
Total CO2 emissions 2017 was approx. 36 billion tonnes / CO2 / yr. So 10 billions sequestered seems like significant potential.
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Bob Loblaw at 12:55 PM on 27 February 2019Fritz Vahrenholt - Duped on Climate Change
jcfanclub:
I, too, would be interested in seeing you describe what you think is the data set that backs the "skeptic" side. Please pick one (to start), and explain what you find convincing about it.
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RedBaron at 12:52 PM on 27 February 2019Prices are not Enough
50 dollars a (metric?) ton at the rate of 5-20 tonnes CO2e/ha/yr for a farmer means something significant. Even a small farmer of 200 acres can earn additional ~ 25-100 thousand dollars a year sequestering carbon.
Do that and the price of beef and organic produce will drop and end up offsetting the extra costs in fossil fuels directly, while also directly removing the Carbon from the atmosphere and sequestering it deep in the soil.
It will also offset a great injustice that has been perpetrated on small family farmers and rural comminities since the 1970's, namely the forced instability of the small family farm forcing millions off their land and out of their homes.
Even now only 46.1% of farmers have net positive income from farming. This would rejuvenate rural economies as well as rejuvenate degraded soils.
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Bob Loblaw at 12:50 PM on 27 February 2019Global Surface Temperature: Going Down the Up Escalator, Part 1
eddieb:
Let me try to give another explanation. First, emission of radaition is given by Planck's Law, which tells you how much radiation is emitted at any wavelength, as a function of temperature and emissivity. Emissivity is correctly applied at a specific wavelength, not across all wavelengths as it is typcially used in the Stefan-Boltzman law. However, for solids and liquids, emissivity is usually fairly constant over a wide range of wavelengths, so it is not a bad approximation to treat it as a constant in some cases.
The Stefan-Boltsman law is the sum total of all radaition emitted at all wavelengths - essentially, the area under the curve described by Planck's law.
Now, to get back to your comment at #138. The earth's surface temperature is about 288K, as you describe. The surface emissivity in the infrared is not as low as you have suggested though - in fact, most natural surfaces are close to 1:
https://www.thermoworks.com/emissivity_table
So, a surface at 288K would emit something like 390 W/m2 - much more than the 240W/m2 that balances absorbed solar radiation. The issue is that the surface can't emit this all directly to space - the atmosphere blocks this.
THere are two ways to resolve this in the Stefan-Boltmann model:
- The atmosphere must be having a blocking action that makes the earth-atmosphere system behave as if the surface has an emissivity of 0.612, The reduction in apparent emissivity is a measure of the greenhouse effect.
- It isn't the surface that is emitting IR radiation to space. In essence, the blocking action of the atmosphere means that the amount emitted to space comes from somewhere up higher in the atmosphere. Because the upper troposphere is colder, we can say that it looks like it is the upper troposphere that is emitting to space, not the surface. That's where we will find the 255K temperature suggested by the Stefan-Boltzmann law with an emissivity of 1.
Both of these are pretty simplistic descriptions of what is happening, because the atmosphere does a lot of things other than radiation, but the basic ideas are sound: the atmosphere prevents the earth surface from emitting IR to space like a black body, and what does reach space is usually emitted at high altitude.
I hope this helps.
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