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Stephen Baines at 15:01 PM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
No, it's not an easy question. CO2 is one of those variables that has very wide ranging effects that can cascade through aquatic ecosystems in unpredictable ways. First there is the effect on acidity, which influences a myriad of chemical equilibria including carbonate chemistry and metal ion speciation. Then there are the effects on photosynthesis, which can be limited by supply of CO2. The composition of plant matter, the balance between photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, the growth of organisms that feed upon plants and the formation of sinking particles can all vary in response to CO2. Roger Revelle notwithstanding, oceanographers (and limnologists) have spent the better part of a century thinking about CO2 as a constant, not a variable. That has left us ill prepared for this event! I think the task will force a better integration across wide ranging fields, including chemistry, climate science, physical oceanography, ecology and evolutionary biology. I should note that despite the complexities, there are some things that are abundantly clear. For example, the formation of carbonaceous, and particularly aragonite, skeletons is almost always negatively affected by decreasing pH. It's not clear evolution can keep up with the rate of change in pH -- maybe because the options available to organisms are constrained by chemistry. Also, the depth at which net carbonate accumulation within sediments occurs will get shallower as the ocean acidifies. Both factors affect the LONG TERM ability of the ocean to sequester CO2. -
scaddenp at 14:58 PM on 8 June 2010Robust warming of the global upper ocean
But this paper hasnt actually been published yet has it? It looks rather like it needs some reviewing (unless of course it is for E&E). -
Doug Bostrom at 14:33 PM on 8 June 2010Robust warming of the global upper ocean
Delving into Scafetta's latest paper, we immediately find a dubious assertion: The existence of a 60-year natural cycle in the climate system, which is clearly proven in multiple studies and herein in Figures 2, 6, 10 and 12, indicates that the AGWT promoted by the IPCC [2007], which claims that 100% of the global warming observed since 1970 is anthropogenic, is erroneous. Does the IPCC claim that 100% of warming observed since 1970 is anthropogenic? Here's what the IPCC 2007 report actually says: Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic GHG concentrations. 7 It is likely that there has been significant anthropogenic warming over the past 50 years averaged over each continent (except Antarctica) (Figure SPM.4). {2.4} Not even close to a flat 100%, not by the most liberal interpretation. So either Scafetta can't read, has not read the IPCC material he references, or is resorting to rhetorical hyperbole, something unwelcome in a scientific paper. No matter as long as we don't care what's true or false, Scafetta has a hypothesis. Or does he? The planets, in particular Jupiter and Saturn, with their movement around the Sun give origin to large gravitational and magnetic oscillations that cause the solar system to vibrate. These vibrations have the same frequencies of the planetary orbits. The vibrations of the solar system can be directly or indirectly felt by the climate system and can cause it to oscillate with those same frequencies. More specific physical mechanisms involved in the process include gravitational tidal forces, spin orbit transfer phenomena and magnetic perturbations (the jovian planets have large magnetic fields that interact with the solar plasma and with the magnetic field of the Earth). These gravitational and magnetic forces act as external forcings of the solar dynamo, of the solar wind and of the Earth-Moon system and may modulate both solar dynamics and, directly or indirectly, through the Sun, the climate of the Earth. So what's the mechanism? Later: In conclusion, data analysis indicates that current general circulation climate models are missing fundamental mechanisms that have their physical origin and ultimate justification in astronomical phenomena, and in interplanetary and solar-planetary interaction physics. In sum, we're asked to accept as certainty an indication of a previously unknown cyclical mechanism influencing climate, this cyclic process being derived from a fairly scanty physical record and an elaborate compound astronomical process. More, despite there being no known actual physical process describing how this mechanism may function, this mystery is "fundamental" and should be included in GCM's or they're incomplete. All this coming from somebody who for whatever reason was unable to accurately describe what the IPCC actually has said regarding the behavior of the climate. What would happen if the IPCC included work of this sort in WG1? Would anybody complain? Nah, surely not.Moderator Response: Better topic thread for discussion of this is Models are unreliable -
Doug Bostrom at 13:48 PM on 8 June 2010Robust warming of the global upper ocean
PhilC, to my untrained eye Scafetta appears to be throwing things against the wall, hoping something will stick. Previously Scafetta has said We estimate that the sun contributed as much as 45–50% of the 1900–2000 global warming, and 25–35% of the 1980–2000 global warming. These results, while confirming that anthropogenic-added climate forcing might have progressively played a dominant role in climate change during the last century, also suggest that the solar impact on climate change during the same period is significantly stronger than what some theoretical models have predicted. Problems with this assertion were discussed at Real Climate. In another paper, Scafetta says We find good correspondence between global temperature and solar induced temperature curves during the pre-industrial period such as the cooling periods occurring during the Maunder Minimum (1645–1715) and the Dalton Minimum (1795–1825). The sun might have contributed approximately 50% of the observed global warming since 1900 This paper was also critiqued at Real Climate At least those two papers had something in common. Now Scafetta is trying something else entirely? But what about the previous research? Is it inoperative now? Is there something new under the Sun? -
Joe Blog at 13:11 PM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
Stephen Baines Thank you, an interesting read. Exactly what i was looking for. And raises the questions i was thinking myself. Ocean acidification/effects, is not an easy question. Something i will have follow more closely. -
Stephen Baines at 12:51 PM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
@Joe Blog "... has anyone done an experiment. Just run two big tanks in controlled atmospheres running sedimentary bio filters" People have and are doing a large number of studies involving mesocosms that range in "naturalness" if you will. Below is a references to a Norwegian/German team has been doing a series of such experiments, for example. It's tricky technically to pull off at a large scale. It helps if you're in a protected site like a fjord. Pelagic Ecosystem CO2 Enrichment Overview -
philc at 12:31 PM on 8 June 2010Robust warming of the global upper ocean
Regarding modelling temperatures in the atmosphere, re: "#54 kdkd at 16:59 PM on 26 May, 2010 HumanityRules #52 ......Given that we can't model the observed 20th and 21st century warming without using CO2 as a parameter, it seems extremely likely that large scale observations of warming are also due to the same CO2 parameter........" Apparently not all the available data has been incorporated into the paradigm. This paper by Dr. Nicholas Scafetta (at http://arxiv.org/abs/1005.4639) takes a further look at variabilities in the climate caused by various resonances between the orbits of the planets, the sun, and the moon. Abstract: We investigate whether or not the decadal and multi-decadal climate oscillations have an astronomical origin. Several global surface temperature records since 1850 and records deduced from the orbits of the planets present very similar power spectra. Eleven frequencies with period between 5 and 100 years closely correspond in the two records. Among them, large climate oscillations with peak-to-trough amplitude of about 0.1 degC and 0.25 deg$, and periods of about 20 and 60 years, respectively, are synchronized to the orbital periods of Jupiter and Saturn. Schwabe and Hale solar cycles are also visible in the temperature records. A 9.1-year cycle is synchronized to the Moon’s orbital cycles. A phenomenological model based on these astronomical cycles can be used to well reconstruct the temperature oscillations since 1850 and to make partial forecasts for the 21st century. It is found that at least 60% of the global warming observed since 1970 has been induced by the combined effect of the above natural climate oscillations. The artial forecast indicates that climate may stabilize or cool until 2030-2040. Possible physical mechanisms are qualitatively discussed with an emphasis on the phenomenon of collective synchronization of coupled oscillators." All of these astronomical resonances have effects akin to the tides caused by the sun and the moon and can cause changes in the transfer of radiation from the sun. Given that the temperature reconstruction gives a pretty remarkable fit to the measured variations in the temperature record, something no GHG climate model does, the results show me that at the very least all of the mainstream forecasts of temperature and CO2 are missing a major portion of the climate equation -
Ned at 10:45 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
One of the reasons it's important to keep ocean acidification in mind is that it wouldn't be ameliorated by many of the "geoengineering" solutions that have been proposed to counteract global warming. (That is, geoengineering approaches that actually sequester carbon would help with OA, but approaches that merely reduce solar irradiance wouldn't affect this ... and could in fact make OA much worse if people felt they could now burn lots of coal without any warming.) -
Joe Blog at 10:42 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
By raised ph... i mean raised acidity... lowered Ph! -
Ned at 10:33 AM on 8 June 2010Irregular Climate: a new climate podcast
Berényi Péter writes: On the other hand a judge becomes a non-judge as soon as summoned as a witness to a trial. His role is different. Actually, I disagree. He doesn't become a non-judge. That's his occupation. He may temporarily be playing a different role than he does in the courtroom, or in the office, or when giving a talk about the legal system to primary-school students. Scientists too have many different roles to play, which may include doing research, writing manuscripts and proposals, reviewing others' manuscripts or proposals, supervising students and postdocs, managing a lab or field station, teaching both formally and informally, and communicating the important parts of their expertise to the general public and/or other audiences outside the field. If a scientist I knew were called upon by a Congressional committee to answer questions in her area of expertise, I would encourage her to do so as clearly, objectively, and straightforwardly as possible. With all due respect, it seems to me that you're straining to find something to criticize Dr Ramanathan for. Surely there are more significant things we can disagree about? Or perhaps I'm mistaken and you've come around on everything else? :-) -
Doug Bostrom at 10:30 AM on 8 June 2010Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
DrTom you should prioritize friendship. Ned mentions laughter and as an MD your friend ought to know laughter is indeed sometimes the best medicine. Try steering him to DenialDepot which may actually succeed in provoking some thought on the whole matter. -
Joe Blog at 10:18 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
I do have to ask, ive done a bit o work in the aqua culture area, and certainly have noticed a few interesting phenomenon with different gas saturation levels... But out o curiosity, has anyone done an experiment. Just run two big tanks in controlled atmospheres running sedimentary bio filters... i would think you would get fairly conclusive evidence one way or the other that way, with atmospheric effects on coastal waters anyway. I suppose it depends on the species... but certainly in my observations, slightly super saturated water results in faster growth rates in the species ive observed... obviously although this results in raised Ph it also has higher O2 saturation, so doesn't necessarily have any bearing on ocean acidification. But is contrary to what theoretically should happen(i should mention though, at 120% or so.... fish get the benz) -
Ned at 10:15 AM on 8 June 2010Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
DrTom, I like Carl Sagan's response to crackpots (of whatever viewpoint) who think that because the rest of the scientific world doesn't agree with them, they must be another Galileo: They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. I don't intend this as an ad-hominem attack on your friend (whom I've presumably never met), just a general observation. The odds are that anyone who thinks they're a second Galileo is probably suffering from an extreme case of Dunning-Kruger. -
DrTom at 10:06 AM on 8 June 2010Over 31,000 scientists signed the OISM Petition Project
There are people to whom no amount of reason will change their minds. My MD friend just replied to this with the following argument which he considers rational: Scientific concensus of the day on sun around earth: 99% Galileo: . 00001% earth around sun truth matters Censorship and manipulation of data and careers does too. But here it's way more than 1, it's 10's of thousands of rational educated professionals in opposition as the (correct) minority. -
Ned at 10:06 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
Doug Bostrom, thank you for pre-emptively trying to head off a distracting argument over the term "ocean acidification". Also, MattJ asks for materials about ocean acidification that are less technical than the scientific journal articles listed above. Elizabeth Kolbert's 2006 article The Darkening Sea is a real classic, and a very good starting place for the lay reader. Ms Kolbert is one of the best contemporary science writers in the US. -
Doug Bostrom at 10:05 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
That's a sweetly succinct but comprehensive explanation, ProfMandia, w/lovely visualizations. Nice job. -
ProfMandia at 09:47 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
I just posted a more user-friendly article about ocean acidification titled: The 800 lb. Gorilla in the Ocean. Enjoy. Scott A. Mandia, Professor of Physical Sciences Selden, NY Global Warming: Man or Myth? My Global Warming Blog Twitter @AGW_Prof Global Warming Fact of the Day Facebook Group -
Tony O at 09:46 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
I admit I do not understand more than a fraction of what I have read of the linked articles, but they are still scary. Add natural variation to expected changes and we have a major problem within twenty to thirty years. -
deconvoluter at 09:41 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Bern at #2 What was the outcome of his three months searching? This, or something similar, is what he should have found : http://www.docstoc.com/docs/21859176/Schwarzschild-Equation-for-the-transmission-of-radiation-through-an-absorbing-medium Instead he came up with a spread-sheet calculation based on the Stefan Boltzmann equation which is far too simple to model the behaviour of a gas with a highly non-uniform temperature, and a spikey absorption spectrum. There was also no way that it could include the time delay caused by the huge thermal capacity of the oceans. This over-simplified model was triumphantly published by the Sunday Telegraph as a disproof of the scientific consensus. The reason is that it had derived a very low climate sensitivity. -
Doug Bostrom at 08:42 AM on 8 June 2010Irregular Climate: a new climate podcast
Berenyi, is it purely a value judgment that anthropogenic warming is a serious threat or is not? Most scientists practicing in fields connected with matters influenced by climate behavior conclude that costs of a warming climate outweigh benefits by a long measure. A relatively few persons conclude otherwise, many of those quite unqualified to render a useful opinion. It is legitimate for a congressman trying to establish the broad parameters of a threat to ask a researcher whether that threat is significant and equally it is reasonable for that researcher to give an informed response to the question. Your suggestion that scientific testimony is inherently a political act and presumably thus illegitimate is silly. -
Berényi Péter at 08:34 AM on 8 June 2010Irregular Climate: a new climate podcast
#72 Ned at 11:53 AM on 7 June, 2010 A bus driver doesn't suddenly become not-a-bus-driver just because she's been asked to provide testimony to a Congressional committee about mass transit On the other hand a judge becomes a non-judge as soon as summoned as a witness to a trial. His role is different. #73 doug_bostrom at 12:40 PM on 7 June, 2010 Would you suggest he write back to the committee saying that providing requested scientific advice is an "overtly political act" so he must politely decline? No. He could try his best to testify as a scientist by refusing to mix value judgments into his testimony, strictly sticking to the facts, acknowledging uncertainties and revealing inconsistencies. For example he could mention that his findings about black carbon are all but inconsistent with even the low end of "assumed climate sensitivity of 2 to 4 K due to doubling of CO2". It is up to the Committee what they make of a honest testimony. After all they are supposed to be grown up men. If so, what's the point of his work from the funding perspective? Nothing. There is no point of basic research from this perspective whatsoever. The only reason it is done to advance knowledge and understanding. It is an entirely different question that should society decide not to support science, that society is doomed. But it is not the concern of scientists, it is the concern of politicians (and the public). Or as Faraday told Lord Gladstone when asked about the point of his research on electricity "Why, sir, there is every probability that you will soon be able to tax it!" Darn, it happened. Of course we all know the real significance of his work was that it made possible for Maxwell to write down his equations, later discovered by Lorentz to be invariant under a weird transformation which led to the mass-energy equivalence of Einstein. As the constant c2 in that relation is so huge (8.99×1016 m2 s-2), it was only a matter of time to turn it into bombs to end the Japanese war for good, saving one and a half million American lives and seven million japs as an afterthought. You never know the final outcome of research in advance. In fact it is not even your business as a scientist. -
Doug Bostrom at 08:31 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Further to Stephen's remarks about Monckton's influence, an example. Here in the U.S. the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) is preparing to regulate some types of C02 emissions as a form of pollution, which depending on the source and effect it clearly is under the wording of the agency's mandate. Hearings on EPA's budget were used as an opportunity to delve into legislation proposed by Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski, Murkowski's intent being to selectively slice out C02 as a pollutant that EPA may address. Here's Monckton's "expertise" appearing in that discussion: [U.S. Senator] Inhofe, whose leading campaign funder is the oil and gas industry, has been trying for years to back up his claim that climate science is a "hoax". His colleague, Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.), joined his criticism, drawing from British business and policy consultant Christopher Monckton's science skeptic group, the Science and Public Policy Institute, for his arguments. US Plans for Greenhouse Gas Regulations in 2011, Hopes for CCS Presuming Monckton's input more or less influences the outcome of this matter, Monckton's activities may be said to influence future committed warming. Given a susceptible policy environment pure rhetoric may translate into physical effects. In this situation we see senators from states directly benefiting from fossil fuel extraction leveraging Monckton's claims to change the course of public policy. -
Stephen Baines at 08:09 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
MattJ, you could try the Royal Society's statement. A little dated at 5 years old, but it explains the basics in a straightforward manner. It's probably linked elsewhere on the site. Royal Society report on acidification -
Stephen Baines at 08:01 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Let me be more specific, I would "prefer" to ignore his specific claims about climate. I simply don't have the time to waste on them if he is going to be so cavalier with the literature. However, I won't pretend he doesn't have influence. While his rhetorical audacity often makes me chuckle, its not funny when he's playing so loose with science on such important issues in front of people of power. I wonder how many of the scientists that he contacted were even aware that Monckton was using their research to support his own ideas. Scientists often have little to gain professionally from engaging the public. Episodes like this make it clear that they are engaging the public in ways they were not even aware of. Will it make them more receptive to engaging the public and dispelling the myths and oversimplifications when they arise? I sure hope so. -
Climate's changed before
Roger, With all due respect, you demonstrate some profound misunderstandings about the nature of climate science, the IPCC report, and the scientific method in general. It is ill advised to be commenting on the nature of something you clearly haven't read or understood. If you want to argue in good faith, I strongly suggest you spend some time learning what climate scientists actually have to say rather than relying on the strawman depicted by climate denial blogs. A good source would be the IPCC WG1 as linked above, or one of it's summary reports. Another interesting read is the epa response to comments on their findings on greenhouse gasses. This site's own list of skeptic arguments is also a great overview of common skeptic points. The Discovery of Global Warming is great for getting some perspective on the history of climate science, and understanding that AGW did not leap spontaneously from the minds of scientists and some in the blog-o-sphere would have you think. Finally you can find a host of great links here. In any case, if you have any specific questions or points, please place them in the appropriate post, as this post is focused on the significance of past climate change specifically and this discussion has veered off-topic. -
mdenison at 07:06 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
Matt J: You could start with the IPCC IPCC. They provide hundreds of pages material based on the technical papers relating to climate change. It is produced with the express intention of making such material accessible to a wider audience? The AR4 Synthesis Report is a good place to start. -
bpl1960 at 07:03 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
J -- thanks, I'll keep that in mind! I'm going to try to email Monckton directly today. Mark Swanson kindly let me know his email address posted at the Heartland Institute. -
ClimateNow at 06:47 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
MattJ: IMO, that is precisely what Mr. Abraham is doing (and very effectively, I might add) - debunking Monckton in layman's terms but including his sources (so that he can't be accused of simply expressing his own opinion as well as maintaining his scientific credibility for the more literate). The denial camp simply can't win in this case as they simply have no evidence to support their claims. This has always been the case - this has been going on for years. The difference is that Mr. Abraham chose to fight back. We've needed someone like Mr. Abraham to tackle this for ages. Hopefully others will follow and the MSM will take note as well. I'm cheering from the sidelines! -
Doug Bostrom at 06:35 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
Probably a good idea to establish right away that the term "acidification" is not hyperbole, is not intended as an emotional appeal, rather is and has long been commonly used to refer to any solution having its pH measurement value lowered. On other threads we've seen dozens of comments expended on this terminology distraction. Let's please try not to do it again? -
scaddenp at 06:32 AM on 8 June 2010Climate's changed before
Roger -you persist with this idea that science "assumes AGW". Either you havent read IPCC WG1 or you didnt understand it. WG2 and WG3 DO assume AGW because they ask the questions about what will happen. I state again - here is how the process you work. You say IF, IF, the hypothesis is true, then what would I expect to observe. If you the observation match prediction, that is support (but not proof) of the theory. ALL SCIENCE IS DONE THIS WAY. This is not somehow "assuming AGW is true". I dont see how anyone could read IPCC WG1 and come away with idea. Roger, read more carefully what I have written. I and the whole of science is well aware of logrithmic relationship. What I am asking is WHY you believe that the science doesnt take it into account. It does - demonstrably - but somehow you believe it doesnt? AGW support is mostly based in physics not paleoclimate. Paleoclimate is an area dogged with uncertainties so its happy hunting ground for deniers. Since you started this discussion on this blog, it would be imappropriate to move it yours. I will not respond there.However, if you prefer to correspond on this by email, feel free. -
MattJ at 06:29 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part III – Acid Reflux?
I think you can count on many people reading this blog post, but far, FAR fewer reading the articles you include in your generous list of links. They are simply too technical. The world needs the material made in a format more accessible to the layman, at least to one with a BA from a reasonably good institution. These articles are clearly not written with such a reader in mind: citing them is "preaching to the choir". Who is working on producing such material, accessible to a wider audience? -
Doug Bostrom at 06:08 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Stephen Baines, thinking of Monckton as a social phenomenon I doubt this episode will cut into his popularity as an attraction for folks having beliefs similar to his. In our minds we may know magicians are masters of distraction and illusion but in our hearts we still find them entertaining. Personally I find Monckton's writing to be amusing if I detach myself from its consequences and forget that he's aiming at real people. Monckton fires words like a gunner having an automatic weapon and an inexhaustible supply of ammunition, spraying verbiage wildly with abandon. That's entertaining, even if what he's writing is ultimately useless. On the other hand, Monckton's work is undoubtedly having an effect on the amount of C02 being emitted into the air, helping to increase the committed amount of warming we're facing unnecessarily and thus he's having an impact on the physical world quite beyond his value as a road show. Next time he's up for consideration to be used as an expert source of testimony, drawn upon as a resource to help shape public policy, I hope the memory of the scientific community is sufficiently long as to recall this matter and make sure those listening to his opinions are keenly aware of his liabilities, his unreliability as a well of useful knowledge and interpretation. John Abraham has helped to establish a means of gauging Monckton's utility for assisting with public policy formulation and thus has probably reduced to some extent Monckton's future contribution to C02 emissions and committed warming. Let's hope the painstaking effort Abraham has invested in creating this metric will not be forgotten when it's most needed. -
Philippe Chantreau at 06:02 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part II – Here Comes the Sun?
Arkadiusz, I'd like to see how it can be demonstrated that GW is a pefect fit to a Bond event. The Scafetta paper you cite is not referenced. Even if it is peer-reviewed, how much merit it has remains to be seen. It is in disagreement with Solanki or even Svalgaard's take on the role of the Sun. -
Dennis at 05:57 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
I do not think Monckton should be ignored. Monckton has an important audience. His recent testimony to the US Congress should be the next target of the same sort of detailed scientific analysis Abraham conducted, and I would like to see him defend that document in front of cameras and questions with sworn affidavits by the scientists whose papers he cites. I hope this event is just a dry run for that. -
Stephen Baines at 05:28 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
@Ned #48 Although there has been some moderation of this thread, I think its on topic as it stands, though worn out. The situation so far... We've in front of us a strong case from Abraham that Monckton is wrong or misguided on virtually ever major point he made about the state of climate research in his presentation at Bethel. Moreover, it appears Monckton systematically misinterpreted prior research to fit a preexisting narrative that directly contradicts the conclusions of much of the research he cites. At this point, we are waiting for a substantive response from Monckton since Abraham's points largely concern his use of the existing research. So far we mostly have invective and (possible) threats to Abraham and others seen to be promulgating his analysis. As I see it, the discussion has centered around whether that approach is justified, or justifiable. Reasonable given the context. Frankly, I'm inclined to ignore Monckton completely after this debacle. Unfortunately, he seems to be actively engaged in trying to censor rational debate. As, this site is dedicated to the proposition that such debate can and should occur, it concerns us all. That kind of behevior must be called out. As for what Monckton will eventually do, I'm not sure. He's got a huge hole to climb out of. Based on past behavior, I'm not expecting a mea culpa , nor am I expecting a sharp right turn toward a full rational engagement with the literature and climate researchers. Instead I bet he'll sidetep the whole issue and make the claim that he is free to interpret the prior research unfettered by the actual opinions of the researchers themselves. That will appeal to those who identify with him and have come to see the "debate" as a ball game in which they are the underdogs. But I think it is the wrong way forward, for everyone concerned. -
J Bowers at 05:28 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Re: 47 lord_sidcup Is UKIP's Deputy Leader, Christopher Monckton, having a hand in censorship of the British press? Interesting. In stark contrast: UKIP MEP stands by attack on “biased, censoring” BBC -
DrTom at 04:18 AM on 8 June 2010Radio interview with Skeptically Speaking
I am sorry to post off-topic but I cannot find the discussion about this which my doc friend just sent me as proof positive that what we observe is not happening. Would someone please direct me to the rebuttal, please?: Oregon petition projectModerator Response: The Oregon petition project is covered here. -
Stephen Baines at 04:03 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
#47 Lord Sidcup and DB I agree...it seems likely that is Monckton. The note picks up memes (Bible college) from his rebuttal, such as it is, and actually tones them down a bit, albeit with a little added menace in suggesting her will "be in contact." He (or his emissaries) have repeatedly shown up to say similar things in other blogs, so it is consistent. On the other hand, it does also seem really ham handed and ill-advised. Can he really be that tone deaf? -
BillWalker at 04:01 AM on 8 June 2010Monckton Chronicles Part II – Here Comes the Sun?
@DrTom #22, And your denier friend even has a science background, unlike mine! If people who actually understand science can be that much in denial, what hope do we have? -
John Russell at 03:43 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
The Ville: You'll find Tom Chiver's blog post linked to in Lord Sidcup's comment @ #47 -
Paul D at 03:41 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Re my last post... Found a copy on a blog. Read it quick before the Telegraph track it down! http://climatechangepsychology.blogspot.com/2010/06/telegraph-steps-outside-its-alternate.html -
Paul D at 03:23 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
I thought I would do a search in the news filter of Google for anything about Monckton. It came up with this headline: "Viscount Monckton is an embarrassment to global warming sceptics ..." Which was apparently a blog entry by Tom Chivers: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100008371/viscount-monckton-is-an-embarrassment-to-global-warming-sceptics-everywhere/ But it appears the Telegraph have deleted the page! But Google still has it indexed as being posted 3 days ago. Does anyone know how to retrieve an archived/cached page? -
John Russell at 03:20 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Monckton's reply was posted on the 4th June. If Monckton was not the perpetrator and someone is impersonating him, Monckton -- being as litigious as he is -- would have wasted no time in putting the record straight. I think we can be pretty sure it is him, though it would probably be quite a good idea for JC to make contact to confirm. -
Doug Bostrom at 02:40 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
CB, I'd say if Monckton's reply here is dubious it's because it's so relatively restrained. For one thing, there are not enough adjectives. Language from Monckton's reply to Abraham: propaganda artifices hilariously mendacious he looks like an overcooked prawn artful puerilities fourteenth-rate zoologist man on the Clapham omnibus climate-extremist Comrades cobble together his ramblings deliberately dishonest personal attack an ingenious fiction hide the truth make this nonsense look plausible wriggled and waffled flagrant and deliberate misrepresentation mere Bible-College lecturer spectacular exaggerations mawkish sci-fi comedy horror movie artfully distorts or carefully omits shoddy little piece of lavishly-funded venom serious, serial, material errors, exaggerations, or downright lies gross professional misconduct academic dishonesty and deliberate lying -
Ned at 02:24 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Clearly, a lot of people don't care for Mr Monckton. That's very understandable. But please, let's keep our attention focused on the validity (or lack thereof) of his scientific claims and those of Dr Abraham. If you have an important point to make, please try to make it without adding a lot of emotionally loaded language. If the language itself IS the point, and you just want to express your opinion of Mr Monckton's character or honesty, there are lots of other sites around the blogosphere where that kind of discussion is appropriate. This isn't specifically addressed to anyone in particular, more a reflection on the comments in the various Monckton related threads. -
lord_sidcup at 02:07 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
#47 Whilst that is always possible the comment is from an impostor and not Monckton, I have to disagree with you that the comment is "too over the top" to be Monckton. Monckton is quite prepared to use intimidation to silence his critics. Tom Chivers of the UK Telegraph did a blog posting reporting Abraham’s criticisms of Monckton. The posting was subsequently and mysteriously taken down, but not before Chivers posted this update: "Update: Lord Monckton has phoned up and, in a rather charming fashion, expressed disappointment at the contents of this post. He was very polite about it and made me feel a bit small about the "popinjay" and "jester" comments, and he pointed out that that I hadn’t phoned him for comment. He says he is going to get in touch with me after he has prepared a response to Prof Abraham, and I have said that I am happy to revisit this topic when he does so. I have, however, refused at least for now to take the blog down, until I have spoken to my editor." I can only assume the editor had the post removed, although a copy can be found here: http://climatechangepsychology.blogspot.com/2010/06/telegraph-steps-outside-its-alternate.html A blog posting by James Delingpole that repeats a lot of Mockton’s name-calling and ad hominem attacks on Prof Abraham has been allowed to remain online at the Telegraph. -
John Russell at 01:58 AM on 8 June 2010Radio interview with Skeptically Speaking
To add to what Doug says; you know your stuff, and you keep it simple, John, which means that you make a good interviewee. The only point where I thought you sounded a little defensive was on the question about extreme weather events. While your answer was, of course, perfectly correct, it might have been worth pointing out that a lack of convincing evidence of the increasing frequency and severity of hurricanes does not in any way detract from all the other accumulated evidence that AGW is real. Overall though, a very good show -- with every new interview you'll get even better. -
CBDunkerson at 01:17 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
BTW, are we sure that the 'Monckton' commenter above really is Christopher Monckton? When I read it I thought it seemed a bit 'over the top'... even for him. -
barry1487 at 00:36 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
Monckton at 02:39 AM on 7 June, 2010 Lord Monckton,Mr. Abraham here admits that he spent several months working on his presentation attacking me personally in the most venomous terms
Having seen the entire video, I cannot remember even one occasion where Abraham used any terms against you that were 'venomous'. Nor can I recall any phrases that fit this description. As I recall, criticism was direct, but couched in mild and usually suppositional language. For the record, would you kindly quote/give directions to the terms you found so egregious?The usual practice in academe is that anyone wishing to rebut another's work notifies that other of his intention and of the rebuttal, before it is published, to give that other the opportunity to prevent needless errors.
This is the case with formal papers destined for peer-review. Abraham's video, obviously, is not one of these. However, if you feel that this standard does apply, and that it applies equally, I am curious to know the steps you have taken to contact those scientists whose work you have rebutted, and what their replies were. Thanks in advance. -
J Bowers at 00:14 AM on 8 June 2010Abraham reply to Monckton
@ 39 BPL Set up a kitty and I'll chip in on expenses and even travel, if they wouldn't stump up for any of those.
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