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Comments 14751 to 14800:

14751. nigelj at 07:33 AM on 27 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Recent research on anti vaccers is relevant and depicts a certain sort of world view: They embrace multiple conspiracy theories about the world, dont like needles, and more likely to feel offended by perceived attempts to limit their freedom, ( an attitude known as reactance).

       I see the same conspiracy thinking and reactance with climate denialists.

       Of course vested interests is a huge factor as well. Perhaps the fossil fuel companies are modern day 'luddites'. 

14752. nigelj at 07:24 AM on 27 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       OPOF @30, I think theres much to admire about Singapore. I think western countries could have tougher fines for smoking in the wrong places, littering etc. In fact sometimes the fines are there in western countries, but they just aren't enforced, and thats half the problem. People play the system  and think its soft.

       While I'm not a believer in locking every criminal up for life - that sort of mentality- you do need some consistency of enforcement of rules and maximums do need to be handed out regularly, for the law to be respected.

       However I think Singapores drug policy is excessive. 

       It's the tough challenge of having sufficient strong laws and enforcing them, without becoming an over regulated, authoritarian police state that starts to intrude on peoples social lives etc. Its a balancing act. However it's quite possible to get laws right if they are based on science and evidence of real and significant harm, as opposed to emotion and more arbitrary judgements like apartheid laws, anti homosexuality, or trivial laws.

14753. One Planet Only Forever at 05:23 AM on 27 April 2018
       The missing maths: the human cost of fossil fuels
       

       The real inappropriate math is thinking it is OK to balance costs in the future with lost opportunity for benefit today.

       Any delay of action today to reduce the magnitude of accumulated impact adds to the harm and costs that will be faced by Others in the future. That type of thinking is undeniably disgusting, yet it is 'the way many want to think'. It certainly allows undeserving Winners today to prolong their undeserved perceptions of prosperity and superiority. But it is an undeniably unacceptable and unethical and immoral way for people to think about things.

       Rapidly reducing the burning of fossil fuels today should be required of every already more fortunate person, with the strictest requirement for rapid reduction applied to all of the wealthiest on the planet (no exceptions allowed for those who would prefer not to have to care to lead humanity to better behaviour).

       Also, at the time that Kyoto was being proposed I remember reading and understanding that an associated benefit of CO2 emissions reduction was the linked reduction in other pollution (like particulates, NOx and SOx). And that understanding was the basis for considering CO2 capture and storage to be a less desirable action than reduced burning of fossil fuels. There is also a reduction of environmental impact and risk of harm to people in the extraction, processing, transportation and burning of the fossil fuels.

       There are many Good Reasons to rapidly terminate the burning of fossil fuels. There are only Poor Excuses to delay that required correction of what has so incorrectly developed so far.

14754. Tadaaa at 22:39 PM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       I agree wholeaheartedly with the article pretty much all the comments, here is a great clip of Matt Ridley in the House of Lords - not speaking on AGW, but on Brexit (here in the UK, Brexit and Climate denial where twinned at birth)

       https://twitter.com/Jim_Cornelius/status/986742292085133312

       the fascinating thing is Ridley was making a point about Tariffs and the EU's dasterdly application of them to Africa

       when another Lord simply points out that the EU exempts Africa from tariffs - does this new fact dissuade Lord Ridley, not a bit of it, he simply carries on restating what has been faltly contradicted only a moment before, they have no shame. It is the verbal equivelant of spaying crap on a wall, they know some of it will stick.

14755. nigelj at 17:43 PM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Dpeipgrass @15

       "@nijelj and @Leslie, on the question of "what to do about climate change" my opinion is that lifestyle change is not the answer politically - because yes, it's good to live a less wasteful lifestyle, but people don't like being told what to do and it's not a complete solution. Rather what we need is to build out clean energy, fast. Mainly solar, wind, and nuclear reactors."

       I agree lifestyle changes are not the complete solution. It's got to be a combination of lifestyle changes together with renewable energy.

       However you miss my point so I will rephrase it. It's not simply lifestyle changes in terms of less materialism or waste, its lower carbon footprints and use of electric cars etc.

       And as I suggested,  Government are clearly not taking climate change seriously enough, and I submit governments are unlikely to do much to promote renewable energy and carbon taxes and so on until they see people making lifestyle changes, and showing they take climate change seriously. So if people are concerned about climate change, they need to walk the walk - at least to some extent. I do realise its partly a question of what comes first the chicken or the egg!

       The Democrats also need to take a stronger line on climate change and this will force the hand of the Republicans.

       People probably do need to be told what to do, or at least they need advice. Its probably a case of throwing ideas around rather than being bossy.

       Renewable energy has only gained traction with government support schemes such as subsidies, and theres the question of effective carbon taxes and / or ets schemes.

       I'm a bit agnostic on nuclear energy. You have a good point Liberals are somewhat excessively paranoid about the risks. I grew up with the three mile island scare and chernobyl, and this imprinted on my mind and made me sceptical of nuclear power for a while in my youth, and I suspect I'm not alone. However I have walked myself back from this, because in terms of deaths per capita per year nuclear is actually one of the safer options. But that is not the public perception, and the industry has to turn that around somehow if they want support.

       Nuclear is also slow to build and more expensive than on shore wind power. I feel its in the hands of the nuclear industry to provide cost effective power built within stated time frames. I have no objection to governments subsidising research into nuclear power, or perhaps construction, but not to a greater extent than wind or solar power receive.

14756. scaddenp at 17:15 PM on 26 April 2018
       There is no consensus
       

       "Facts are not arrived at by consensus"

       This is a very tiresome strawman argument. We agree. However, the important facts are: a/ the consensus does exist and b/ scientific consensus (especially when strong), is the best guide to policy.  A true scientific consensus is very seldom wrong and you would be an idiot to bet the planet on it being wrong.

       Citing pre-scientific examples of societial consensus (a very different thing) is pointless. 

       "One of Micheal E. Manns (the hockey stick guy) claims in the defamation lawsuit against Mark Styen,et al., was that it is (or should be) a crime to defame a Nobel Prize winner." Citation please. What were his actual words?

14757. DPiepgrass at 15:50 PM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Leslie @4, my guess is that you're lucky in talking to someone who transparently told you the root cause of their beliefs. None of the ones I talked to mentioned God, and of course many people who believe in God also believe in evolution and climate change. But arguably, distrusting mainstream scientists (and anyone who believes them) is a more durable way to maintain your faith.

       @nijelj and @Leslie, on the question of "what to do about climate change" my opinion is that lifestyle change is not the answer politically - because yes, it's good to live a less wasteful lifestyle, but people don't like being told what to do and it's not a complete solution. Rather what we need is to build out clean energy, fast. Mainly solar, wind, and nuclear reactors.

       Solar and wind will take care of themselves because there is so much public  support for them and prices keep dropping. In southern climates, I'm fairly convinced solar will demolish coal. In the U.S., Trump will be voted out.

       The key challenge is baseload and/or energy storage. Fundamentally, wind power production is temporally mismatched with demand, so you need either lots of energy storage and a continental-scale grid - expensive - or you need nuclear plants. So although denial is driven by conservatives, IMO a big barrier to solving climate change is liberals who wildly overestimate the risks of nuclear plants and think 1970s plants like Fukushima are the same kinds of plant we would build today. Even the well-known fact that nuclear plants are expensive and take a long time to build is, apparently, caused as much by the politics of nuclear fear as it is caused by limitations of traditional reactor technology.

       I'm hoping that the answer is Molten Salt Reactors (including thorium) which are superior to traditional reactors in just about every way. But whether we get MSRs will depend a lot on public support.

       We should also agressively support diverse research into non-traditional fusion energy such as Dense Plasma Focus, the Polywell, and whatever that thing is that Tri-Alpha Energy is doing. Governments have really dropped the ball in both fusion and fission research - they fund expensive long-term fusion research at ITER, but won't fund comparatively very cheap projects like DPF, so instead we see scientists (who would have preferred to do open research at universities) forming companies like this one to pursue private investors. Granted, it's not guaranteed DPF and Polywell will actually work at scale - that's why we need the basic science research - but if it does work, it could make coal, oil and traditional nuclear plants obsolete very quickly.

14758. Eclectic at 15:00 PM on 26 April 2018
       There is no consensus
       

       Windrunner @770 , welcome (back) to SkepticalScience !

       If you have come to defend Dr Judith Curry's reputation as a scientist, then alas you come too late.  That ship has sailed.

       If you have come to argue that the climate scientist consensus on AGW is anything less than 99%, then alas you come 30 years too late.  The consensus has been steadily rising for many years now, and has reached 100% (or more precisely:  100% minus a few crackpots, who are entirely unable to provide any valid contrarian scientific reasoning or supportive facts).

       In addition, your "Churchillian" quote is wrongly ascribed.  There have been many versions of it -— the Twenty-First Century version is:  "If you are not a liberal in your twenties you have no heart, and if you are not a conservative in your forties you have no brain, and if you are not an environmentalist by your sixties then you have no conscience."

14759. windrunner at 13:42 PM on 26 April 2018
       There is no consensus
       

       As this is your first post, Skeptical Science respectfully reminds you to please follow our comments policy. Thank You!

       Found this forum on a link posted on a POW(Protect our Winters) EM article I recieved. I consider myself an open minded person and willing to listen to many points of view and draw my own conclusions from the facts presented, regardless of my personal opinions.  My views have changed on several things over the years.  Winston Churchhill, hardly a scientist but certianly one of the biggest influencers on the course of 20th century history, once said that "if you are not a liberal in your twenties you have no heart, and if you are not a conservetive in your forties you have no brain."

       The heart creates passion, and passion emotionalizes arguements, obscuring the validity of points of contention.  One of the obscured points is the method that one of the cited studies was conducted, the Doran study, conducted by Margeret R.K. Zimmerman, as a grad student under Doran's direction.  Points that make you go huh?... 10,257 surveys were sent out. 3,146 bothered to respond.  Does that mean 7,111 questionaires were not delivered? Or that the intended recipients had no opinions, yea or nay? Only 30%, give or take, bothered to respond. Only 79 respondents answers were eventually used to come up with the 97%- the other responses supposedly did not come from "climate scientists" so they were not used.  Why were they even sent?  There are other questions that arise from the conclusions that were drawn from this study but I think the point is made.  When any survey requires closed answers the results must be considered with a skeptical eye.

       Facts are not arrived at by consensus.  If this were true, the earth would still be flat, and Giordano Bruno's burning by the Vatican Inquisition in defense of geocentrism would be justifiable. Aristotle's expansion on spontaneous generation were accepted as fact for over 2,000 years! Neaderthals are not ancestral to modern man! Micheal Bradley's assertation of Neanderthalic genitics in "The Iceman Inheritance" was laughed at and later decried as racist. Indeed, the scientific community's persecution of any one who questions the dogma of the alarmists who have made substantial financial gains espousing the global warming/end of the world would be entirely defensible.  One of Micheal E. Manns (the hockey stick guy) claims in the defamation lawsuit against Mark Styen,et al., was that it is (or should be) a crime to defame a Nobel Prize winner.  Of course he is not, and it is not.  This claim was dismissed from the suit. The financial gains to be garnered by silencing any thought contrary to the prevailing AGW theocratic dogma is too great to be allowed a voice.  This site has poo-poo'ed Judith Curry and some of her claims, but I have found more open minded and even handed writings on her site, on both sides of the issue. Humankind thinks that they are of gret consequence but the truth is we are like all other afflictions this globe has suffered, and when she tires of us she will shake us off like raindrops and without a second thought.

14760. nigelj at 11:37 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       Related research : "Does Engagement in Advocacy Hurt the Credibility of Scientists? Results from a Randomized National Survey Experiment. "

       www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17524032.2016.1275736

       The short answer is it doesn't, unless they start promoting specific types of renewable energy (as opposed to the idea in principle).

14761. John Hartz at 11:34 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       Recommended supplemental reading:

       Here's How Scientists Can Become More Politically Engaged, Opinion by William T Adler, Observations, Scientific American, Apr 25, 2018

14762. Wol at 10:48 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       >>They’ll say you’re in a “cult” or “religion” for believing humans cause warming<<

       I think we're almost all guilty of using the words "believe" and "believing" when attempting to argue the point - as in my quote from the piece.

       Deniers will pounce on anything one says - look at the email "fraud" - and using such words does play into their hands: they throw them back at you as if you have a religious or belief system driving you. (Because mostly they themselves are driven by that sort of thinking, perhaps.)

       I prefer to conciously use the word "accept", as in "They’ll say you’re in a “cult” or “religion” for accepting humans cause warming."

14763. Nick Palmer at 09:33 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       "So your key audience is not the guy you’re responding to, but fence-sitters who may be listening in. There are more silent doubters than vocal deniers; always remember that"

       I've always though this in my online denialism rebuttals. I tend not to bother much with the dumbest remarks, which tend to be just a couple of short sentences but I've come to find that the most dangerous, and trickiest to counter, tend to be those who are in the least denial of climate science - the lukewarmers, who believe that climate sensitivity is much less than the vast majority of climate scientists say. To them, the global temperatures won't reach the heights expected by the IPCC position and we may still stay in the Goldilocks zone, where we may still get more benefits from a low rise than disbenefits.

       It is my opinion, although I can't prove it, that many of the 'dumb' arguments one sees endlessly used by apparently intelligent educated people in public positions, such as Senators addressing Congress, are, to them, justified political deception. I suspect that their core beliefs are in the 'lukewarmer' views of Lindzen, Spencer etc yet they realise that if they tried to used those arguments to sway the minds of the public, it would backfire. Admitting that greenhouse gases warm the climate, that the planet is warming, that we are having an effect but that a small minority of scientists say it won't come to much, while the majority say it's very risky, is a very weak argument - the ordinary person is well able to make a personal risk assessment. That is why those movers and shakers, who are personally convinced by the lukewarmers, use the couple of hundred simplistic memes as listed and debunked on Skepticalscience.com, to influence the voting public. Ever wonder why Senators and the institutes keep using these memes, that they know for sure have been debunked a thousand times? Remember, these people are really not stupid! it's because the memes work very well at shaking the confidence of the public in mainstream climate science. These short pieces of disinformation are very convincing to the general public, not that they definitvely 'prove' anything but they certainly succeed at creating doubt and uncertainty and those who want to avoid those political moves that mainstream climate science mandates benefit by using the memes to try to prevent those moves happening.

14764. One Planet Only Forever at 09:20 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       I have seen posters and tee-shirts saying "Science not Silence".

       Speaking out is essential.

       Albert Einstein's Memorial in front of the National Academy of Science in Washington, DC includes the following "The right to search for truth implies also a duty; one must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true."

       And one of the statements on the walls of the Thomas Jefferson Memorial is “I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times.”

       Americans (and other humans), particularly the supposed Winners, really need to be reminded of the thoughtful helpful thoughts of those who have come before us, encouraging us to be open to increased awareness and better understanding and the required corrections that may be contrary to developed Private Interests.

       Freedom has to have responsible limits. Those who will not responsibly self-limit their behaviour need to be repeatedly disappointed, until they learn to change their minds.

14765. scaddenp at 09:19 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       leslie, if someones position is not based on data, then arguing with data is pointless. It's very like arguing with a young-earth creationist - their viewpoint is not derived from science, so no amount of science will change their mind. It's really about the biblical authority and exegesis on Genesis and that is where the argument should take place.

       sailingfree makes some good points. Others are that bible promotes living within limits (eg Genesis 2:15-17,Exodus 23:10-11), and note the implied threat in Leviticus 26 :3-5. Plenty of examples of enviromental disaster following disobedience. So how is modern western society doing in keeping the 10th commandent? The prophets and gospel are mostly about justice. Is it justice that those most vunerable to climate change are mostly those that contribute least to it?

       Once you can establish a theological framework, then someone might be more open to looking at the science. Pretty easy to expose downright lies being told by climate deniers. How does that person take to to liars? Christian right is hung up on morality in the bedroom - the bible has more to say about morality in the boardroom.

14766. nigelj at 08:13 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       I always enjoy listening to scientists explain issues in the media. I think the public need to connect with scientists in this way and get a lot out of it. Stick to the science if you are not comfortable advocating solutions.

       The people who say don't do this are probably often climate denialists posing as concerned citizens.

14767. leslie dean brown at 08:08 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       LINK

       I don't have time to argue with this one. I'm travelling.

        

        

        

        

       Moderator Response:

       [DB] Shortened link

14768. nigelj at 06:54 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Article related to social dominance , group theory and race:

       LINK

        

       Also National Geographic Special Edition April 2018 is entirely devoted to these issues.

       Moderator Response:

       [DB] Shortened link

14769. nigelj at 06:47 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       Agreed. It's important to respect people with different views, but state the truth plainly.

       However theres another important issue going on behind this, and the key to the whole thing. This is relevant from Vox.

       "Similarly, popular conceptions of the GOP — that it is driven primarily by conservative economic principles like small government, low taxes, and deregulation — are also wrong. It turns out those things were the preoccupations of a thin and unrepresentative conservative elite, primarily in DC. The Tea Party uprising and its culmination in Trump were driven by white resentment and white backlash. (Here’s another new study supporting that thesis.) The ethnonationalist populism Trump represents is the dominant strain of conservatism in America today."

       LINK

       The point here is America is being divided on race and cultural issues, and the anti climate science rhetoric , and the anti science and deregulation agenda is being deliberately sneaked in the back door while people are all worked up about exaggerated problems about immigrants an so on.

       Moderator Response:

       [DB] Shortened link

14770. ubrew12 at 05:13 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       "Those who... [focus on] social dominance... see the world as an ongoing competition between social groups"  Fear drives us into our respective 'safe spaces'.  The media thrives on fear so as we become more media-driven we are more fearful.  Witness what a 'harvest' Vladimir Putin has made of this fear, and expect more.  In a fear-driven environment, it may be more helpful to 'lead by example'.  Europe and now Asia are beginning to lead on this issue, which will hopefully propel America into the 21st century in the long run.

14771. John Hartz at 02:35 AM on 26 April 2018
       America's best scientists stood up to the Trump administration
       

       Recommended supplemental reading:

       Should Scientists Advocate on the Issue of Climate Change? by Ingfei Chen, UnDark, Apr 24, 2018

14772. sailingfree at 02:03 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Leslie @4,
       You might make some theological arguments to your religious friend.
       One would be that God gave man the power to affect the climate, and is simply watching what we do with it.
       “… let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth,….” (Genesis 1.26)

       
       Another is that that God will not necessarily keep the Earth always comfortable for mankind. After all, as he banished Adam and Eve from the paradise of Eden He said:
       “… cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shall thy eat out of it … in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,…” (Genesis 3.17,19)

       
       Another time God was not happy with man, and so flooded the earth, originally with the intent of eliminating all of mankind:
       “And God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6.5) “… and so the Lord said 
I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; …” (Genesis 6.7)

       He also caused some heating of Sodom and Gomorrah.

       And so perhaps now He has seen what man did in the twentieth century, WWI, WWII, and the holocaust, and in mid-century became angry. Perhaps now He is allowing the Globe to heat up enough for more drought, famine, and war (but no world-wide flood, of course, just rainbows).

       This warming would be consistent with Relevation, where in 8.7 says ‘… fire, which fell on the earth; and a third of the earth was burnt up, and a third of the trees were burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

       
       Your friend should be asked to give Biblical arguments for his religious belief that God will keep the Planet comfortable for mankind.

14773. One Planet Only Forever at 01:57 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       nigelj,

       A major incorrect development of the developed socioeconomic-political systems is the way people in the systems/environments are tempted to develop to be less caring and behave less ethically regarding the development of a sustainable better future for all of humanity (Tribalism or any sub-set Us-Firstism; as presented in the NY Times item I referred to). The systems tempt people to care more about their Private Interest in obtaining personal benefit in their lifetime (even the socialist and communist ones can do that).

       The most significant development related to that incorrect development of attitudes and actions is misleading marketing.

       Susan Cain's “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking” highlights cultural historian Warren Susman's identification of the shift from a Culture of Character to a Culture of Personality that began in the 1800s. The terms that were impressive for Character were: Citizenship, Duty, Work, Golden deeds, Honour, Reputation, Morals, Manners, Integrity. The terms that were impressive for Personality are: Magnetic,Fascinating,Stunning, Attractive, Glowing, Dominant, Forceful, Energetic.

       The advancement of emotion/desire related advertising results in a decline of effectiveness of reason based advertising. Well prepared misleading claims will be more successful than efforts to more fully inform and educate the population in a socioeconomic-political environment where people are encouraged to consider their self-interest to be more important that helping to advance all of humanity to a sustainable better future.

       That combination of:

       • encouraging people to desire to compete to appear to be superior relative to others, rather than competing to substantively be more helpful than others
       • with more freedom of the winners of competition to behave less ethically
       • and the ability to get away with efforts against raising awareness and better understanding of the corrections required to develop sustainable advancements for all of humanity

       is a serious threat to the future of humanity, and not just regarding climate science.

       The development of socioeconomic-political environments/systems like that, with their self-perpetuating promotion/advertising leading to increasing incorrect development and resistance to correction, must be called what it is, not be defended because of created appearances of progress or prosperity that are not truly sustainable.

       The solutions/corrections can be understood to require the understanding of the importance of limits on freedoms of belief and actions to get Substantive Ethical Character to be what is admired, to return to the track of Enlightenment that Personality driven socioeconomic-political systems have departed so drastically from.

       Singapore's success included some rather authoritarian rule by a rather benevolent dictator restricting freedoms forcefully. I recall how smoking in theatres was ended. The fine imposed was huge, and the smoking stopped immediately. A similar solution was imposed to end the mess of chewing gum on sidewalks, no chewing gum allowed.

14774. Eclectic at 00:32 AM on 26 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Leslie @4 , your report of the communication from the "blatant denialist" is interesting yet not so very uncommon.

       Quite apart from his being [to quote his own phrasing] "arrogant and foolish" in his unscientific nonsense . . . he is also being arrogant and foolish enough to believe he himself knows the mind of God.  He seems unaware of the irony of his stated position.

       We see this overweening self-confidence likewise, in Dr Spencer and Dr Lindzen — though Lindzen's self-confidence derives from his ideas of Yahweh rather than Spencer's more modern Christian God.   The fundamentalist concept of a rapidly approaching End of Days, does make it a little strange that someone [such as Leslie's correspondent] would bother to spend time communicating with the [probably] inevitably-damned Leslie.  (And it doesn't sound like he is seriously attempting to "convert" Leslie.)   Also, why bother disputing with Leslie, when (allegedly) nothing much is going on (other than a few relatively minor hurricanes etc) and nothing much could go on, until the obvious-to-all and utterly calamitous events of the Final Days ?

       Maybe the guy is suffering from an anxiety that he might not be right after all?   Maybe he is worried that he will be left with egg on his face, when the world continues to go gradually pear-shaped (exactly as the real scientists are indicating) and he will finally have to say: "Why hast Thou forsaken me?"

       Yes, an interesting case there, Leslie.   Wash your hands of him.

14775. nigelj at 16:57 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Leslie Dean Brown @4, I've also noticed a lot of internet climate denialists are engineers working in transport or fossil fuels etc, for example we had dan the engineering man on this website, and my google search discovered he has an interest in performance cars. Another is Brian Leyland from NZ. As I mentioned polls show denialism is strong in these industries.

       But I dont think all denialists are in this engineer category. These engineer guys are smart enough to be articulate denialists, so are more visible on the net. Some may be fronting lobby groups, so professional deniers. 

       Never undersestimate the power of vested interests in climate denial. However I have always maintained denialism is a mixture of attributes and personalities related to vested interests, politics, and psychology in the main, and the later two aspects closely relate anyway. Politics derives from peoples psychology ultimately.

       Someone wondered about scepticism about vaccines. Read the comments  anti vaccers make and its mostly women so maternal concerns, and very poorly educated people who just dont understand the issues.You can probably throw in conspiracy theory ideation against big pharma amplifying the scepticism. I think conspiracy theory thinking would be more dominant among poorly educated people.

14776. Doug_C at 15:30 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       I've been encountering them online for over a decade and have had many pointless debates over the issue. Deniers are incredibly slippery when it comes to any discussion, always able to find some hole out of any intellectual corner they have placed themselves in.

       In the end the conviction I've come up is that many of the deniers I've encountered online have displayed psychopathic tendencies. They lie as second nature, they are willing to take incredible risks with all our lives and they show no remorse at all for their actions. They are often very arrogant and are masters at manipulating people and discussions in their favour and can come across as being charismatic although it usually ends up being a very superficial charm.

       5 Traits of Actual Psychopaths

       "4. They take big risks.

       Psychopaths have little regard for safety, especially other people's. They often lie, cheat, and steal to get ahead. This behavior can be especially toxic. While not all psychopaths engage in illegal activity, those who do plan their crimes well in advance. Their misconduct is usually well-organized, and they leave few clues behind. Psychopaths tend to be very intelligent, which makes them great con artists."

       Given at what's at stake and what has already been lost - like 50% of coral reef systems globally already - I've come to look at climate change denial in the interests of the coal, oil and gas sector as the greatest crime ever carried out.

       Which make deniers some of the worst criminals ever.

14777. leslie dean brown at 14:51 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       Oh I signed up just so I could provide comments here.

       I've noticed that pretty much without exception, the denialists I have come across fall into one of several work categories. They are usually either civil or mechanical engineers; work in the mining or fossil fuel industries; in transportation; manufacturing; or else the military. You can see it on LinkedIn. It's very easy to check people's background over there. There is a distinct pattern emerging.

       IN OTHER WORDS, the very same industries that produce a shite-load of CO2. Steel, cement and concrete are some of the biggest culprits out there! Not to mention other materials.

       Very few denialists have any formal science training. But even they crop up from time to time. I was very disappointed when I came across a fellow materials scientist who was also a blatant denialist. And this is what he had to say:

       _________________________________________________________________________

       "Hi Leslie, You seem to be very intelligent, but you seem to also be very misinformed (or maybe limitedly informed is more accurate). You need to look beyond the last 20 years of rhetoric and the last 100 years of recorded surface temperatures (which have only become increasingly more accurate and extensive in the last 50 years). Vostok Ice Core Data clearly show that the temperature of the earth is cyclical going back more than 450,000. The earth will go into an Ice Age again with or without the assistance of humans.

       My beliefs about the Farce of Global Warming are not based on Scientific Data, they are based upon my belief in the omnipotence of GOD. I am a Christian, but GOD's omnipotence is not just a Christian belief, it is embraced by virtually every non-pagan religion since the beginning of recorded history. The earth is GOD's creation! HE controls ALL of HIS creations! It is arrogant and foolish to believe otherwise.

       The "Natural Disasters" that we experience are not "Natural" at all, they are "Super Natural".

       I firmly believe that this winter and springs' extremely cold temperatures as well as the rash of recent earthly disasters (hurricanes, tornadoes, fires and earth quakes) are GOD's display of HIS control of HIS creations and HIS disgust and disappointment that most of mankind believes that they somehow control HIS creation.

       Whether you believe in GOD (or not), many clearheaded scientists that are not influenced by politics, finance or popular media entertainment believe that Global Warming (as influenced by mankind) is a farce."

       _________________________________________________________________________

       I mean how does one respond to that? Obviously, this person is not truly scientific, whereupon their logic has flown out the window. They're not open-minded. They're closed-minded. They just admitted "My beliefs about the Farce of Global Warming are not based on Scientific Data, they are based upon my belief in the omnipotence of GOD."

       I used to be super logical and think that data alone could inform and pursuade peoples' opinions. Wrong! Completely wrong! That was a big assumption on my part.

       I personally think it's time scientists got a bit more emotional in their approach. No one listens to you when you sound like Spock. But when you get passionate about something, people take your more seriously.

       The other thing I'd like to add is that if fashion and design have the power to pursuade people to do things on very short timescales, perhaps scientists should be looking to designers for some more clout? As I'm one of the few who speak the dual languages of science and design, I'd like to help scientists with that. Feel free to get in touch with me...

       I'd also like to share readers with my blog, where I try to fuse my passion for writing and design with environmentalism among other things (like my mental anguish).

       http://www.vidaenigmatica.org/

       There was one other thing I wanted to say here. A few months ago I had an argument with a security guard of all people about climate change. He was clearly out of his depth and I let him have it. Anyway, he was in a classic denial the whole time, and then eventually he finally said: “what do you want me to do about it?” (with an attitude)

       Is this the real underlying problem? That they literally don't know what else they can do to mitigate climate change?

       Maybe that's an idea for a post? WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO ABOUT IT?
       For example: plant more trees, buy second hand, reuse, repair, recycle, buy services not products, slow down and enjoy life, etc, etc.

14778. Digby Scorgie at 14:46 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       I've always felt that some deniers are suckers — they've been caught for suckers by the propaganda campaign waged by the psychopaths who prefer wealth and power now to a habitable planet later.  These deniers are probably open to persuasion.

       But the remaining deniers are fanatics, and one is never supposed to debate with fanatics.  It's an utterly pointless exercise.  I've also seen estimates that put the percentage of such deniers at about 10%.

       So I wonder if there's any point in expending energy on the fanatical deniers.  My experience of human affairs leads me to think that we would still be arguing about climate action even if there were no deniers at all.

       I simply can't bring myself to believe that humanity will take the necessary steps to avert dangerous climate change.  The implication, from all the assessments I've seen, is that in about two decades much of the world will be reeling from the effects.  That's when humanity will realize that serious action should have been taken — but it'll be too late.

14779. nigelj at 14:30 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       This article from Vox  is good on Trumps supporters and whats happening with the Republican Party.  

14780. nigelj at 14:21 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       OPOF @27, Singapore is a successful economy, and I'm interested to hear they have good business ethics. They are a very strict rule bound society, maybe a little too authoritarian in leadership  for me. I think it's probably a need to unify diverse cultures on a tiny island with limited resources.

       Scandinavia is a successful market economy, or mixed model economy that achieves reasonably fair outcomes and has decent business ethics on the whole within a more democratic framework. They are not perfect societies, but are a good socio economic  model to emulate, and outcomes tend to be good in those societies.

       I read the New York Times article just the other day. It's very compelling, but Trumps blue collar supporters won't get any help from Trumps policies. They have been used as pawns in his self glorifying plans.

14781. One Planet Only Forever at 12:37 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       The link to the NY Times article I referred to in the 4th last para of my comment @26.

14782. One Planet Only Forever at 12:28 PM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       nigelj@24,

       “Economic theory encourages people acting in their "enlightened self interest" on the basis that profitability "will benefit all" in a happy kind of effect and this appears to create wealth over history, at least in the provision of certain types of goods such as consumer goods.”

       is not as accurate a presentation as:

       “Economic theories of the beneficial developments that will be achieved through things like a free-market and free-society rely on, or require, all participants (or at least the vast majority of the significant participants), to honestly and diligently pursue maximum awareness and understanding of what is really going on and act to sustainably improve things for the future of all humanity. It also requires any member of humanity who has developed Private Interests contrary to that type of sustainable collective improvement to be quickly identified and corrected, something that is more important to apply to those who have become wealthier or more influential.”

       As an engineer with an MBA I try to focus on the actual results that are being achieved, which can be very different from the perceptions developed by participants in the system. And I am very aware that addressing harmful undesirable results requires a good understanding of why the results occurred before attempting to correct things.

       This is an ethical or moral matter requiring the best explanation for what is observed (abductive reasoning).

       For any system to be sustainably successful all actions need to be guided by a good ethical or moral objective.

       The vast majority of the developed socioeconomic-political systems can be seen to have failed to encourage ethical and moral development that would sustainably improve the future for all of humanity (developing, encouraging and defending things that prompt ethical people to be concerned about what has developed); failing to discourage unsustainable or harmful activity (even communist systems can be seen to have failed that way).

       I have been paying attention that way through many decades based in a region of the planet that 'developed a powerful collective desire to benefit from the global burning of fossil fuels' (Alberta, Canada). And I have tried to be as aware as I can be of what happened around the world regarding the burning of fossil fuels. I have been particularly interested in the people/system responses to the emergent truth of the unacceptable consequences of that activity. Thanks to SkS, I understand that began at the time of Arrhenius in the 1800's. By the 1980's the unacceptability of already fortunate people trying to become even more fortunate as a result of expanded or extended global burning of fossil fuels was undeniable (since then the further strengthening of understanding was delayed by the developed popularity and profitability of that activity and by the deliberate efforts of wealthy powerful people who did not want that understanding to be better understood).

       The required system corrections to get ethical/moral system responses to the developed climate science understanding includes admitting the importance of restricting freedoms. Changing the socioeconomic-political systems to effectively correct incorrect beliefs (not allowing people to believe whatever they wish), and restrict freedoms of actions (not allowing people to pursue whatever their developed Personal Interests are regardless of regional popularity or profitability) are essential system corrections (for more issues than climate science).

       So my current developed understanding (always a work in progress) is that “an ethical/moral development of a sustainable better future for all of humanity” requires rigorous monitoring and aggressive correction applied to all of the wealthiest and most influential, all of the Biggest Winners. There needs to be higher expectations of Good Behaviour from the richer and more powerful, best achieved by peer pressures. At the other end of the spectrum, the poorest can be excused for understandably unethical behaviour because they have more pressing survival motivations and should not be expected to know better, but should be helped to live better and learn to be ethical.

       A system that does not include that correction of the Winners and assistance for the less fortunate will struggle to achieve the desired outcome, no matter what level of understanding is developed among the general population. The clear difference between the leadership actions in places like the USA and the understanding among the general population is proof of the failure of the system to have the Winners actually leading in the proper ethical/moral direction, including failing to meaningfully sustainably assist the less fortunate to better living. And a significantly lower and significantly delayed public acceptance of the developed scientific emergent truth can easily be seen to be the result of the undeserving among the Winners not being effectively 'corrected' in the related socioeconomic political system.

       People driven by concerns about 'their perceptions of privilege as fossil fuel burners or being able to profit from that activity' are a significant part of the climate science awareness and understanding challenge. There is a similar finding regarding Trump supporters recently reported in the NY Times. The awareness of the unacceptability of what has developed and the required corrections that are being exposed by climate science mean that a loss of stature relative to others is a serious consideration. And the resistance of people to 'being corrected' is a major factor in the reluctance of the general population to accept the constantly improving awareness and understanding of climate science, a lot of people can sense that they have a lot to lose. They can understand that they deserve to lose, but they did not develop thinking that way.

       Sean Carroll's “The Big Picture” apolitically presents the currently developed robust understanding of what is going on. And it reinforces that my current developed understanding is aligned with the collective best explanations of reality. People start with hereditary or genetic characteristics and develop their character based on the environment and experiences they grow up in. People can change their minds, but they can be powerfully motivated by the environment or 'socioeconomic-political system' they are in.

       Beliefs about how people should behave (considerately helpful to the future of humanity) in a free-market or free-society are not the reality of what develops if people are freer to believe whatever they want and do as they please. The reality is that people do not develop those ways of thinking and acting in the current developed systems (almost all of them - Singapore and The Cook Islands appear to be rare examples of outliers in that regard). It can be seen that the systems of competition generally encourage the opposite attitudes and actions to develop. They develop zero-sum game attitudes in pursuit of perceptions of being superior to others that actually produce negative-sum results, rather than developing the Positive-sum potential of collaborative healthy competition to most effectively develop sustainable improvements for all of humanity.

       Any perceptions of wealth developed those zero-sum (actually negative-sum) ways are usually unethically obtained, and are not actually sustainable.

14783. nigelj at 08:34 AM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       One other thing, regarding social dominance orientation and associated lack of empathy. This sounds like the sociopathic or psychopathic  personality that is unusually egocentric, also lacks a strong conscience and integrity, and dislikes rules, restrictions and laws. Cheating is seen as ok with this form of personality.

       Some level of sociopathy / psychopathy is recognised as often a feature of chief executives of corporations,  who are ruthless and rewarded for this,  and probably feel they should be allowed to go on aquiring personal  power and wealth regardless of environmental problems or environmental rules. Such people are obviously influential in the climate debates.

       1 in 5 CEOs are psychopaths, study finds.

14784. nigelj at 07:24 AM on 25 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: The Denial Personality
       

       A thorough and compelling review of the denialist personality. I see this exact personality all the time all over the place, sadly to say.

       Climate denialists do routinely ignore what you say, or change the subject - often going a step further into red herring arguments.

       I can only think of one thing you perhaps missed - deliberate ignorance. I see many intelligent people promoting things they must know are absurd, presumably because of political motives and related factors.

       Although some intelligent educated people struggle with science, remember its a challenging subject.

       Coming back to your observations. We know from polls that conservatives tend to be more sceptical because they don't like the implications of the science and other reasons. But I also recall reading a study of oil company employees which showed about 90% scepticism about the science, not surprisingly. It didn't state reasons but would most likely be fear of losing jobs, and perhaps people following the lead taken by management. Peer pressure is probably a big factor in denialism.

       What does it all mean? We have a lot of different reasons for climate scepticism so its shades of grey. Scepticism clearly exists on a spectrum from normal questioning to hardline irrational denialism.

       But if people are mainly just afraid of losing jobs, rather than driven by ideology, they can be shown new jobs are being created in renewable energy. Some are probably going to respond to this.

       The denialist personality is clearly towards the extreme end of the spectrum, and is best defined as someone very entrenched in their views, and unwilling to learn for a whole range of reasons combining in that person. If I had to bet money on it, I would say political ideology is the dominant reason at this extreme end of the denialist spectrum.

       Polls show acceptance of the science has improved in America, although slowly. This shows there are sceptics that can be convinced otherwise. It cannot be random chance, and must reflect better understanding and awareness of the issues.

       You will be left with a group of hard core climate denialists maybe 10%, because we see this with many scientific issues, but in a democracy this doesn't matter so much. It does matter a bit with vaccines, because they undermine the way vaccines work.

       I agree a lot of this is more about convincing people of the merits of renewable energy, not just in terms of the climate, but in other respects. In fact it's really all about a lifestyle change towards taking more care of the environment and less materialism, and unfortunately this gets back to anti environmentalism and raises political ideology again. But 'sustainability' is ultimately about hard environmental facts, and sensible choices and long term policies, and I personally believe this will eventually cut through politics, because reality and facts eventually win out with 90% of people. 

       The more people make real lifestyle changes the more visible it becomes and the more politicians will have to take climate change and other environmental issues seriously. A sort of virtuous circle.

       Or taking the cynical view, will humanity choose to truly take risks and trash the planet into oblivion?

14785. michael sweet at 22:09 PM on 24 April 2018
       Climate's changed before
       

       Tom Curtis,

       It is very good to hear from you. I am sorry to hear about your health issues, my daughter has cronic health issues so I know they are a trial. I lived in Acacia Ridge for three years and I smile whenever I hear of Brisbane.

       Good luck with everything. I try to include a citation in all my posts but cannot detail things like you did. I wonder how you kept your patience with those who refuse to even read the data they are given.

       moderator: I accidently posted a duplicate of this on the wrong OP, sorry.

14786. Tom Dayton at 13:29 PM on 24 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #16
       

       From the author of The Tao of Willie: an explanation of greenhouse gasses

14787. nigelj at 09:59 AM on 24 April 2018
       Pruitt promised polluters EPA will value their profits over American lives
       

       Doug_C @3, yes all true, although taking a devils advocate position, you could argue theres nothing actually wrong with an activist agenda anyway in certain situations. Activism has it's place, especially with something as fundamental to our long term survival as the environment, and given the enormous influence of corporate lobby groups opposing environmental improvements. Activism balances this up nicely.

       There's nothing wrong with the EPA actively protecting the environment, and passionate about their cause, and this means things done.The head of the organisation should have some form of environmental qualification, or at least a science degree, so that he understands the issues and relates to staff. Pruit is a lawyer. No wonder morale is so low in the organisation.

       People need to keep things in perspective. Labelling something activist is an attempt to discredit something, without actually prviding real evidence of a problem. Its a nasty, small minded slur.

       There are plenty of other branches of government to scrutinise EPA decisions, and make sure they don't get carried away and over regulate. Obama managed this, and managed a good balance of environmentalism and economics, proven by the fact the economy and company profitability all did very well on the whole once things recovered from the financial crash. There was therefore  just no problem there with the EPA and specific environmental rules that needed fixing, although more should be done about climate change. If anything, the EPA need more regulatory powers, not less.

14788. Eclectic at 09:42 AM on 24 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #16
       

       Tom, I'm pleased to hear your Mark Twain-like reply.   Your posting history is gold-medal impressive.   And I dips me lid to you.

14789. Doug_C at 07:38 AM on 24 April 2018
       Pruitt promised polluters EPA will value their profits over American lives
       

       nigelj @2

       "leading advocate against the EPA's activist agenda"

       This seems like more very dishonest branding on the part of some working for polluters and not for public safety.

       The EPA was created by Republican President Richard Nixon and had nothing to do with any sort of political activism. It was a response to some very serious pollution issues at the time.

       Why the EPA was created

       Now it has been agreed on a global scale not just by almost all the researchers involved in valid study of the climate but by almost every government in the world that climate change is a very serious issue that must be addresses as soon as possible to pervent very serious impacts.

       The US Supreme Court agreed with this as well in 2007 which means that all this time the EPA should have been strictly regulating carbon dioxide emissions in a way that is consistent with the evidence.

       Massachusetts v. Environmental Protection Agency

       Not only has the EPA not had an "activist agenda" as Pruitt claims as a justification for damaging it as much as he can in the interests of polluters, for the last decade the EPA has been in violation of US law in regards to not regulating CO2 emissions.

14790. nigelj at 07:20 AM on 24 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #16
       

       Other studies of MWP hockey sticks here.

14791. nigelj at 07:15 AM on 24 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #16
       

       Climate denialists still go on about the alleged " broken hockey stick" despite 1) The fact that Manns study wasn't shown to be incorrect 2) Numerous other studies have found essentially the same hockey stick and 3) Manns study is old now from 1998, and global temperatures are now significantly higher, so an even bigger hockey stick.

       But denialists don't get this for god knows what perverted reasoning.

       The media doesn't help, because it always highlights controversies without full context, and doesn't do follow up articles on what more recent research shows. 

14792. nigelj at 07:04 AM on 24 April 2018
       Pruitt promised polluters EPA will value their profits over American lives
       

       Scott Pruitt is the wrong man for the job. One quick read of his qualifications, history, decisons, and the numerous scandals he has been involved in show this.

14793. Doug_C at 06:30 AM on 24 April 2018
       Pruitt promised polluters EPA will value their profits over American lives
       

       Citi did a study of the externalized financial costs of business as usual with coal, oil and gas which is the policy of the Trump administration and in part why he brought someone like Pruitt in to kneecap the EPA.

       Energy Darwinism II

       The estimated externalized costs from a 1.5 C increase in global temperature is $20 Trillion by mid century.

       A 2.5 C increase is $44 Trillion.

       A 4.5 C increase is $72 Trillion.

       Looking at the work of James Hansen who feels that many projections of temperature increase are much too conservative, it's entirely possible that we could be seeing a 4.5 C increase in the timeframe covered by the Citi report.

       Even in financial terms fossil fuel business as usual as is being imposed under Trump is unsustainable.

       Pruitt's gutting of the EPA won't just be costing more people their lives, it will be hitting millions of people very hard in their investment portfolios.

       It's bad business as well as very bad governance.

       Trump has a long history of very poor business practices resulting in multiple bankruptcies, claims of fraud with his "University" and repeated lawsuits against him for non-payment to contractors and vendors.

       This appears to be a vast expansion of that kind of behavior.

14794. Tom Curtis at 01:59 AM on 24 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #16
       

       Michael Sweet @1 and Eclectic @2, thankyou for your kind enquiries.  I was not dead when last I noticed, although I am having problems with my health.  I have responded slightly more fully to Eclectic's other post.

14795. Tom Curtis at 01:57 AM on 24 April 2018
       Climate's changed before
       

       Eclectic @601, thankyou for your kind words, and enquiry after my health.  I was advised of the enquiry after my health by Michael Sweet by Glenn Tamblyn in an email, and thought it appropriate to respond (with this being the best place).  As I have advised several of the SkS crew, my health problems have indeed worsened of late.  They are not life threatening, but have made the sustained pace of commentary I had shown in the past unsustainable for me.  As I find it difficult not to rebut silly arguments, or respond to requests for instruction, I doubt I could remain active on SkS in any capacity without being drawn into that high rate of activity, and so thought it best to absent myself completely.  On my last communication with an SkS team member, I mentioned that my health had improved and that I might be able to return to SkS in the medium turn.  Unfortunately it has now taken a turn for the worse, and that now looks less likely, although should my situation stabilize, I would certainly return.  In the meantime, I wish you all well, and succes to SkS and its mission.  

14796. Doug_C at 16:27 PM on 23 April 2018
       Sea Level Rise: Some Reason for Hope?
       

       We also really have to ask what having a largely ice free Arctic ocean in the summer is going to mean for the Greenland ice sheet. Instead of having a very large reflective surface to the north of it, there will likely be a large body of open sea water in the summer at some point almost certainly by mid century.

       Instead of 90% of incoming solar radiation being reflected back into space, the upper levels of the Arctic ocean will be absorbing 90% of that radiation experiencing significant heating in summer.

       This will likely mean much more evaporation of sea water, the ability of the air column to hold water vapour and far different weather patterns. Which could result in higher amounts of rainfall on the surface of the Greenland ice sheet accelerating melting even further. As well as possibly increasing flow of ice into the ocean.

       There are so many dynamics at work here it is going to be difficult to model the responses as once stable systems are thrown into a state of chaos as they transition to a much warmer Arctic and Earth.

14797. Eclectic at 10:05 AM on 23 April 2018
       2018 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming Digest #16
       

       Michael Sweet, for quite some time, I have been wondering the same thing, and have been keeping my fingers crossed.

       I though it would be fitting, if I referred to Tom Curtis's many good works — but on another thread (one that would not be eventually buried in obscurity, as is destined for all Global Warming Digests ! ).   Surely there could be no more appropriate thread than Climate Myth Number One !

       ( Michael, I was on the point of referring to Tom Curtis this week, but I was temporarily held back by your interesting contretemps with a certain gentleman of lengthy but disingenuous posting history. )

14798. Eclectic at 09:48 AM on 23 April 2018
       Climate's changed before
       

       Salute and thanks to Tom Curtis.

       To my knowledge, it has been just over 6 months since the last comment posted by Tom Curtis.   And I believe, about the same length of time since he posted at his blog "By Brisbane Waters"  [bybrisbanewaters.blogspot.com.au].

       Tom Curtis has been a frequent and energetic poster here at SkS, for 6 years or more.   He has researched / cited / quoted from a great deal of scientific literature, and he has analysed and discussed a great many issues.

       In short, he has been a powerhouse of objective scientific thinking.

       He has fought the good fight, against the lies lunacies & disinformation spread by anti-science propagandists & trolls.

       But over the years, Tom has occasionally referred to long-term unspecified health problems which hampered him.   His recent silence is unprecedented, and presumably indicates that he is too ill to post — or that Father Time has gathered him in.

       And I am sure that I speak for all science-oriented participants at SkS, when I express great thanks to Tom.

        

       (The moderators will, I hope, agree that this salute to Tom Curtis belongs here in the comments column of Climate Myth Number One , rather than in some difficult-to-find sub-listing.)

14799. nigelj at 08:04 AM on 23 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       Doug_C @22

       Yes it's important to always try to improve things. Individual scientists sometimes make mistakes or have bias etc, however  the scientific method by its very nature discourages bias and promotes quality and accuracy because it forces people to look at data, causation, experiment even if the results hurt certain beliefs or gut instincts. Peer review and competition between scientists help expose bad science and bias. Its a good system, but can always be fine tuned to be better.

       Another issue with climate denial is the use of dirty tricks, logical fallacies, misleading and deceitful rhetoric and worse. In comparison, climate scientists stress accuracy, scientific argument, nuanced argument, honesty, admission of areass of uncertainty, replicability, data etc. This is all fundamental to the scientific method, so cannot be compromised and they would be flayed alive by the public if caught cheating anyway. It's therefore not a level playing field, because the same standards are not applied to the denial side of the debate.

       It's analogous to drug cheating in sports. One side plays dirty. Unfortunately with scientific debates theres no referee to ensure both sides play fair.  One hopes the public see this,  and make allowances in their thinking, and  this is why I support more being done to highlight the trickery in denialists arguments, as John Cook is doing. It won't convince the hard core denialists, but it will convince middle ground open minded people.  

14800. nigelj at 07:40 AM on 23 April 2018
       Climate Science Denial Explained: Tactics of Denial
       

       OPOF @21

       "What is obvious is that the developed socioeconomic-political systems tempt people to be more selfish rather than being altruistic. "

       Yes I agree, but its important for people to realise its not because the current economic system is fundamentally wrong in principle, its because of the way people interpret it. Economic theory encourages people acting in their "enlightened self interest" on the basis that profitability "will benefit all" in a happy kind of effect and this appears to create wealth over history, at least in the provision of certain types of goods such as consumer goods. We all know that heavily centralised control and ownership can create stagnant economic systems.

       Unfortunately this is not true of the provision of all goods, because some are better provided by the state.

       And the profit motive and self interest is interpreted by some people to mean that anything is permissible, when it clearly isn't. The point of self interest is to encourage innovation and decentralised decision making, not to permit harmful behaviours or legitimise greed or reckless decision making.

       It is also sometimes interpreted to mean service to others, charity and altruism are worthless, or second rate, when they aren't.

       And its interpreted to mean that the community and / or government should have no control over the behaviour of business or individuals or the provision of important public goods. Such things evolved for good reasons, and are not mutually exclusive with making a dollar or enlightened self interest.

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