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Rob Honeycutt at 02:32 AM on 1 March 2023Which state is winning at renewable energy production?
Peppers @2... You're making an assertion that systems "have crushed the common citizen" but you're not providing any analysis that supports that claim. I'm a "common citizen" in CA and I'm not feeling particularly crushed by energy rates. My own sense of your assertion is that it's a conclusion you're seeking and are merely looking for reasons to justify it.
In fact, as far as I can see, CA is doing a very good job at managing energy usage.
Note that CA's population grew during this entire period, save the past couple of years when the population has slightly declined.
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Bob Loblaw at 01:52 AM on 1 March 2023Which state is winning at renewable energy production?
Peppers:
Deregulation of California's electricity market was previously discussed on this thread.
Nowhere in that thread does anyone claim that "all the electric cost issues in Ca. were from public utility deregulation and not mismanagement.", as you are claiming here.
In your last comment on that thread, you stated "Ill have to study up on the deregulation someone, maybe you, mentioned that before. Apparently it is a factor Im not familiar with."
You are doing your credibility a serious blow by creating strawman arguments that others claim that deregulation is the only factor involved. You have not responded to any of the comments on that other thread that discuss the deregulation problem.
Based on your current comment, you are still "not familiar with" the deregulation issue.
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peppers at 20:01 PM on 28 February 2023Which state is winning at renewable energy production?
IN California, one problem is the badly managed arrangement for solar generation on rooftops. The planners were so rushed to get solar accepted with incentives and subsidies, they have crushed the common citizen.
Below is from Ca.gov. NEM is net energy meter, or power obtained from (primarily) rooftop systems and sold back to the grid. Ca did succeed in getting many systems built, and they incentivized rebates and high 'sell' to the grid rates so buyers were reinbursed within 3-5.5 years. Now all the wealthy ( able to afford ) homeowners who did that are set up, have the systems and the common citizen is paying through the nose subsidizing the whole mess.
Of course the solution to this has to be, more regulations. Now they are going to remove incentives, engineer a 10 year recovery period for the incentives and the buying of solar will change ( plummet?) as they try and make it more fair.
I am mostly entering these comments because I cannot find the gentleman here I discussed this with several weeks ago, who said all the electric cost issues in Ca. were from public utility deregulation and not mismanagement.
No, its mismanagement, and the common citizen is paying for wealthier households to have gotten the NEM free passes. Now, as they reduce the benefits after all these systems have been put in, they will succeed in angering everybody.
This will diminish the goal. Alternative sources are good, but running with scissors in hand and eyes closed at the words solar and wind is disserving the most vunerable of citizens, and saying they need to suck it up for the cause doesnt cut it.
"All ratepayers pay as much as 10 times more for exported NEM energy than for other sources of renewable energy.[3] Californians today spend more than $3 billion a year to support NEM programs.
An independent third-party evaluation of NEM 2.0 found that its costs substantially exceed its benefits as residential NEM 2.0 participants only pay 9 to 18 percent of what it costs their utilities to serve them, even considering the value of the energy produced by their NEM systems.
Under NEM 2.0, the typical solar customer pays for the solar energy system through energy bill savings in 3-5.5 years depending on utility[4], and then receives substantial bill savings for the remainder of the current 20-year tariff.
Ratepayers without NEM systems, who are disproportionately low-income, pay significantly higher electricity rates due to NEM."Moderator Response:[BL] Link activated.
The web software here does not automatically create links. You can do this when posting a comment by selecting the "insert" tab, selecting the text you want to use for the link, and clicking on the icon that looks like a chain link. Add the URL in the dialog box. -
scaddenp at 18:33 PM on 28 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Well Skepsci- this site - puts its mission statement at the top "Explaining climate change science & rebutting global warming misinformation".
But in terms of discussion, I dont think we would have changed the mind of a single hardened denier. It more about provide protection from misinformation and informing those who haven't taken a ideological position. I think bystanders quickly see who has the facts in discussions here.
In relationships, when someone comes up with a statement about something that you are pretty sure is wrong, then the appropriate response is "That's interesting, why do you believe that?". Ie what has informed your prior. And a zillion non-confrontational followup questions to understand it. If it is a value-based belief, then directly going to countering facts is probably going to antagonize. You have to think first about what line of retreat they might have that doesnt run counter to their values. And that needs a lot of active listening from you to understand where they are coming from first. I think you can see why that doesnt really work in blog conversations and why relationship is important.
Of course, all of us have false beliefs I think. When challenged yourself about something, taking a moment to think about your own lines of retreat can help in not falling into Mode-2 thinking.
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PollutionMonster at 17:53 PM on 28 February 2023Tips on countering conspiracy theories and misinformation
I am getting a warning message when I click on the top tips link.
"Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead
Firefox detected an issue and did not continue to www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org. The website is either misconfigured or your computer clock is set to the wrong time."
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PollutionMonster at 14:54 PM on 28 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
scaddenp @78.
First, I want to say I agree with everything you said, except I am not sure what Skepsci is. As for relationships I am highly socially isolated, introverted, or socially akward. I am not sure which, because I desire more close friends and family, but I always seem so overwhelmed all the time I can't seem to make any time for them.
The few friends I have I am afraid to talk to them about these issues because I might chase them away.
I am fairly strong in critical thinking, logic and science, I would say at least above average. Though weak in relationships.
I'll give an example, during the heigth of the pandemic I went online way more and make some sort of online friends. Only to lose them when I accidentally said something mildly racist, despite profusely apologizing. Many of my online friends turned enemy and or blocked me. For someone as socially akward as me this is a nightmare, I don't normally let people in.
This has left me sore and relucentant to form new relationships. The messed up part is I am still unsure who was correct. Afterall many liberals are against poltical correctness and are tolerant of the occasional accidentally mildly racist comment. Furthermore, I see obvertly racist comments on other websites all the time, much worse than anything I said. I mean if I was 100% sure I did something wrong, I could learn from my mistakes, but what I am supposed to learn from that experience?
There is an Atlanic Article The Atlantic Babel that talks about the fragmation of America and the Internet. Seems every website has its own hidden rules and taboos that a person doesn't know about until they break one. On one website it is normal to debate religion, on another it is taboo.
So, the entire part about a long term relationship seems really difficult for me. Yet, I also agree entirely that is easier to get through to people you have a long term relationship. Finding common ground seems more and more difficult. To give another example, I was part of the new atheist movement and most of us viewed ourselves as liberal. Now my friends are Christian, Wiccan, Buddist. Despite, all being raised as Christians.
I heard person A were blocking person B because person B was a libertarian. Everything seems so fragmented into various micro-tribes and cultures. Much more than just simply polarization.
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David-acct at 12:53 PM on 28 February 2023Which state is winning at renewable energy production?
While it is impressive that several states are generating large % of electric generation from renewables, we need to maintain a realistic appreciation of the limitations and realistic appreciation of real world data.
North Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota among other states are part of Midcontinent Independent System Operator, Inc (MISO grid).
The US Energy Information association provides a wealth of real time information. Below is a link to the Electric generation by source EIA.gov. The real time data shows the following when electric generation from renewables dropped below 30% of average electric generation (approx 10% of name plate capacity). Note the frequency of 72+ hours of significantly reduced electric generation.
december 6 2022 , 1am through 12/11/2022, 5pm approx 5 days less than 30%
Dec 18, 2022 11am though Dec 21 8pm - approx 3 days less than 30%
Jan 5, 2023 9pm through Jan 8th 2023 9pm - approx 3 days less than 30%
jan 20, 2023 10Am though jan 23 2am approx 3 days less than 10%
Nov 12, 2022 through Nov 15, 2022 approx 3 days, less than 30%
9 day span in June 2022 with less than 40%
14 day span in august 2022 with less than 30%
40 day span in July August 2021 with less than 30%
Moderator Response:[PS]Replaced bad link with proper one.
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scaddenp at 07:35 AM on 28 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster, I think that people looking at an unknown reality have two modes of thought:
1/ Think like a scientist - "I wonder what the answer is".
2/ Think like a lawyer - "Defend my preferred position and convince the jury".
I rather think that our evolution as social animals has made mode-2 our normal default. Furthermore, even when in mode-1, we slide into mode-2 as soon as we latch onto a promising hypothesis. The process of scientific discovery with its protocols and peer-review are an imperfect way to try and counteract this. All of us are running on flawed hardware.
You are arguing with people in mode-2 and they perceive your responses as mode-2 type arguments even when they are not. I doubt you will make any impression at all. When someone is vested in a position, particularly one that is motivated by their values, then they will not give ground easily. At best, you might convince unvested bystanders and unless there are in fact bystanders then arguing is pointless. Pretty much what Skepsci does.
If you are arguing with someone with whom you have a long term relationship, then you have hope, and it depends on shifting thinking modes. You need to begin with discussing how you come by your beliefs and how you use evidence to change them. Warning - most people are not in the habit of changing their beliefs.
So beliefs - these are our mental map of what reality is like. I think you can convince most people the Litany of Tarsky is desirable.ie If X is true, then I desire to believe that X is true. If X is not true, then I desire to believe that X is not true
In reality many will find that a challenge too when it comes close to the bone.
The tricky bit is how to form accurate beliefs. Ideally we do this with Bayesian reasoning but a necessary first step is to start thinking about beliefs in terms of probability. Eg I am 99% sure that the globe is warming. Can never be 1 or 0. Then it comes down to doing thinking about rules of evidence – what observations are predicted by one hypothesis but are not consistent with alternative hypotheses. This kind of thinking takes practise and someone interested in improving their mapping of reality needs to start on things they are not vested in (eg prediction markets) before tackling it on difficult beliefs that strongly attached to values. Hence the need for a long term relationship. Good luck.
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Evan at 06:37 AM on 28 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Bob@15, I've been found out. :-)
You are correct that I am simply trying to get people to appreciate the unbelievably delicate balance that defines many of our natural systems.
That planets 100's of millions of miles away can cause sea-level change (by whatever mechanism) on the order of 120m (400') is astounding!
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Bob Loblaw at 05:27 AM on 28 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
ubrew12 @12:
I don't think Evan was trying to fool anyone, but he was trying to make people think. Seeing his original comment @3, and the responses @4 and 5, the path my brain went into was:
- 100,000 years sounds an awful lot like glacial cycles.
- 120m sounds an awful lot like sea level changes between glacials and interglacials.
- Effects of Saturn and Jupiter sound an awful lot like the kinds of gravitational forces that cause wobbles and slight shifts in earth's orbital patterns...
- ...which leads to Milankovitch theory.
Rather than jumping into a mode of "this seems absurd..", I went into a mode of "maybe Evan is thinking about something other than the obvious..."
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nigelj at 17:12 PM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Jon Hartz @2.
Agreed.
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Eclectic at 16:58 PM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster , much of what you wish to learn can be found here on the SkS website ~ you can educate yourself by reading various of the Climate Myths (see top of page). In addition, you can use the Search box (top of page).
In addition, you can use your knowledge of basic geography, and your common sense will tell you what happens as sea-level rises (including salination of low-lying land by storm surges). And as the tropics get hotter (even 1 degreeC average rise does produce bursts of even hotter weather, to the severe detriment of crops / animals / humans).
The lands in Northern Canada & Siberia will (eventually) benefit from warming. But much of that area has poor quality soil . . . and there is the whole cost of establishing new infrastructure, and a host of other problems. Much cheaper to halt the rises in CO2.
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PollutionMonster at 16:10 PM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
"The main point is that the land loss will include a great amount of fertile farming land, including the particularly productive river delta regions."
"And gradual worsening & lengthening of heat waves in India and the Middle East and Central Africa." Eclectic
Do you have a source for that? I wish to improve my arguments and I don't think linking to say BBC is the best choice. The part about losing fertile soil worries me because people still die of starvation in the world.
Mostly the deniers use the myth of climate change is overblown and climate change solutions are super expensive. Which to be fair, I was reading that some solutions are infeasible Weekly Roundup.
The denizens are mostly atheists, so that is some common ground we have that lets me tailor the message. I could also use some advice for keeping it all organized. I hate it when I loose track of a really good source or argument.
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Eclectic at 15:15 PM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Good luck with that, PollutionMonster, if you wish to be a David fighting a Goliath of website denizens there. The Daily Mail , eh [insert supercilious emoji here] . Endless hours of free entertainment for you, in battling a bunch of bigots. Though I hope you won't cross swords with them more than a few times per week (you do not wish to justify any label of troll . . . even where they deserve being trolled). And after all, you have a life to live in less toxic circumstances ~ and you may be able to do more good elsewhere.
"CO2 limits will hurt the poor" is just one of the grossly hypocritical excuses put forward by climate deniers. What is behind all these Denier arguments? Near as I can tell, the underlying personality flaws boil down to Selfishness 75% plus Anger 25% . . . or maybe closer to 50 / 50 .
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Evan at 14:20 PM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
ubrew12@12, glad we cleared that up. I simply like to remind people how delicately balanced Earth's systems are. The current effect of the Milankovitch cycles on our planetary systems fascinate me.
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PollutionMonster at 14:09 PM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Eclectic @73
Thanks that helps a lot. I sometimes have doubts when a lot of deniers yell at me at the same time. I think its best for me to pick my battles and choose a different community to talk to.
I am finding very very little common ground. They refuse to use sources, which makes it difficult to understand where they are coming from. Of course there is endless accusations of me being a idelogue.
Other uninvited deniers join in and call me a troll for using sources and accuse me of gish gallop when I link to skepticalscience. Of the group their two favorite sources tend to be Daily Telegraph and dailymail. Though the group consensus is generally sources are bad.
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ubrew12 at 14:02 PM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Evan@7 said "I am simply framing the effects of the Milankovitch cycles in a way that people may not normally think of them." Yes, you certainly fooled me. It makes sense that they would be a 'forcer' for those cycles, but I thought you were refering to some kind of direct gravitational effect.
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One Planet Only Forever at 13:03 PM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Evan,
Humans certainly would have difficulty being reasonably certain of the results of the collective accumulating impacts of their actions. A January 13, 2016 Carbon Brief article "Human emissions will delay next ice age by 50,000 years, study says" covered a study published in Nature. It explains how climate impacts have significantly delayed the onset of the next ice age. A key point is not 'the positive' of delaying the ice age. The key point is that the climate impacts will last 10s of thousands of years unless some generations of humans 'unprofitably' drawdown CO2.
Even if CO2 is drawndown there will be many harmful results of the short term excessive CO2 levels that are irreversible. And many of those permanent harms will be surprises because humans don't really understand the complexity of life on this amazing planet.
Humans have proven they can have massive impacts. And have proven to resist learning about how harmful their developed beliefs and actions actually are.
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Evan at 11:14 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
scaddenp@9, good points. Isn't it remarkable that the Earth ever so slowly changed over millions of years until we arrived at this delicate position where ice-age cycles took us up and down, cycling between 180m and 60m equivalent sea level rise worth of ice on land. The incredible sensitivity of Earth to the tugs and pulls of Jupiter and Saturn are a true indication of the delicate balance that Earth has functioned in for so long.
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scaddenp at 10:58 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
The milkankovich cycles are only able to force ice ages (and sea level) when GHGs levels are so low that summer insolation at high latitudes doesnt not melt snow. (The milankovich cycles operated long before the Pleistocene ice ages). The simple geoengineering to prevent an ice age is to increase GHG to such a level (around 400ppm) that they dont have an effect. Whoops! we have just done that.
We definitely agree with Wally Broecker that climate is an angry beast and that we shouldnt be poking it with a stick.
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Bob Loblaw at 10:36 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Indeed, Evan. That's what I figured. A subtlety in mentioning, without naming, the gravitational effects that might see minor - and are, in a direct sense, based on ubrew12's numbers.
But those minor direct effects lead to indirect effects, with a well-known and plausible physical mechanism, that make for major shifts in climate.
A delicate balance for sure. People argue that we don't know enough about climate to be confident that CO2 is having a warming effect - all those pesky unknown unknowns - but we know enough to be confident that geoengineering will be entirely predictable and problem free? Surely a place to be skeptical.
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Evan at 06:35 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Bob@6, correct. These are not tidal forces due to Jupiter and Saturn, but rather complex feedback processes triggered by varying orbital cycles due to the tug and pull of Jupiter and Saturn on the Earth, ala the Milankovitch cycles.
I did not give a reference because I am simply framing the effects of the Milankovitch cycles in a way that people may not normally think of them.
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Eclectic at 06:22 AM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster @72 ,
Regarding Kulp & Strauss (2019) the figure "per satellite measurement" indicated that 230 million people would need to move, i.e. would lose their land, as the sea level rose 1 meter. Yes, that might well take around 100 years (and the figure might well have grown to more than 230 million by then). The main point is that the land loss will include a great amount of fertile farming land, including the particularly productive river delta regions. But I am sure your Denier friend has no concern about loss of food production in a world of increasing population. Nor will he admit to concern about impoverished refugees coming to a location near him ~ or concern about their wellbeing.
Yes, in the big picture, it all happens slowly. I must admit to a certain liking for your Denier friend. He seems a man without compassion. The world needs more of that sort of person !
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Bob Loblaw at 05:35 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
ubrew12, Phillippe:
At a guess, I expect that Evan may be claiming that the variations in the Milankovitch cycles are due to the gravitational effects of Saturn and Jupiter, such that we have glacial/intergalcial periods at 100,000-year intervals. And that causes sea level changes of 120m.
Just a hunch. Evan can confirm.
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PollutionMonster at 05:07 AM on 27 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Eclectic @70
I read your entire post, thank you for the response. :) I feel like I can have a conversation with you on how to best prebunk and debunk climate change deniers. One problem I have is that some websites are so full of snark and dog piling that I am afraid to have a conversation with other climate change activists. That people are trying to look cool and who can get the best insult off, rather than attempt to become better prebunkers.
According to Greta Thunberg politics have become very very toxic.
One dilemma I have with such a strategy is the person practicing denial lures me into the <i>"snake pit."</i> For example if I say the ocean is acidifying, they insist the statement is vague and therefore useless, demanding I say exactly how fast, how much, and what damage. Ditto, with iceberg shrinking, sea level rise, and refugees.
Next, if I commit to exact numbers, we enter the snake pit. The cranky uncle comes up with different numbers and shows the flaws of my numbers they call me a compulsive liar and are usually able to swing the audience. I'm suprised how often the onlookers side with denial.
I am not the most scientifically literate, nor the most intelligent. I often have to admit humility that the denier is simply smarter and more knowledgeable. That they can pull the conversation to the battleground they are most effective at.
For example when I linked to the Kulp Strauss 2019 article they just dismissed as irrelevant that the sea levels will rise slowly and people will migrate as they always do. Thank you again for the informative civil conversation. :)
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Philippe Chantreau at 04:43 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Evan at 3: Do you have a source, link, published paper for this very bold assertion?
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ubrew12 at 04:34 AM on 27 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Re Evans@3. The gravitational pull of all solar system objects, on Earths surface, relative to the moon is: Moon 1, Sun 0.4, Venus 6E-5, Jupiter 3E-6, Mercury 4E-7, Saturn 2E-7, Mars 5E-8, Uranus 3E-9, and Neptune 8E-10.
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Evan at 23:38 PM on 26 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Saturn and Jupiter do a dance with the Earth which, over the course of 100,000 years, causes sea level to rise and fall by 120m (400 ft). This demonstrates how delicately balanced our planetary systems are.
Do humans have any chance of artificially controlling such a delicately-balanced system (i.e., through geo-engineering), short of ceasing to poke a prod the system the way we do?
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Eclectic at 22:45 PM on 26 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster @70 ,
Please do not go down into the "snake pit". There is no point arguing in areas where you are not clearly the victor. Whether it is 5 million per year dying of heatwaves versus 2 million dying of cold ~ or vice versa . . . really does not matter, because Deniers will dispute you with all sorts of rubbery figures (faux or real) and their own rubbery definitions of what's what. You cannot clearly win, in the eyes of onlookers (and they will see you as argumentative & unconvincing . . . and losing credibility).
The people who spout "freedom / totalitarian control" and suchlike ~ they are a lost cause. They cannot (and do not wish to) think logically. They are into Conspiracies ~ the Mr Soros; the Rothschilds (and their space lasers) ; other Billionaire Communists; the Deep State; the "Q" ; the Lizard people ; etcetera.
Keep it simple. Point to AGW leading to ice-melting and sea-level rise with consequent migrations of millions of refugees. And gradual worsening & lengthening of heat waves in India and the Middle East and Central Africa. More refugees, more poverty, and still more refugees.
Then the real question for discussion becomes : what should we actually do to reduce & prevent those future problems? Sit on our hands for the next 20 years? Or advance gradually (or quickly) toward nett zero carbon emissions (maybe by 2050 or 2060 or 2070?). Argue for the big picture, not the small stuff.
It is the same with friends who are "un-engaged" ~ just make an occasional brief reference to what we actually need to do. (You don't want them to think of you as That Guy who is a boring one-trick pony.)
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John Hartz at 14:12 PM on 26 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
nigelj: At this moment in time, the human race seems to be caught between a rock and a hard place with respect to mitigating man-made climate change. Sooner or later, something has to give. As someone who turns 80 years old this coming summer, I don't know if I'll live long enought to see which path is chosen. For my childrens' and grandchildrens' sake, I sure hope its the right one.
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nigelj at 06:20 AM on 26 February 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #8
Regarding the engineered solutions to humanities various problems. I acknowledge the downsides of this and I oppose geoengineering the climate, but I get tired of listening to academics (and the general public) potificate on the dangers of engineered solutions, while they fly around the world and live in their homes packed full of technology and drive their sophisticated cars. If its really a huge problem, wouldn't they set an example and live simply?
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PollutionMonster at 05:51 AM on 26 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
BaerbelW @68
I am checking out the link you posted. Specifically the one page Flyer.
I find the part about the part about ask for the sources of their information to lead my friends to either avoid the subject or clam up. I've found my friends to either talk way too much and not give me a chance to talk or avoid the subject entirely. Feast or famine neither feels like a real conversation.
Right now I am more concerned about stopping myself from spreading misinformation. For example I recently got called out online for spreading misinformation and labeled a liar and a science denier when I said there was five million people dying a year from climate change. I get confused by the scientific jaragon that the lancet used the word association.
This sometimes spills over into other areas like how many people die from covid-19, or smoking and comorbidities. Seems the theme is to say yes, climate change exists, smoking causes cancer, covid-19 kills, but the damage is minimal and we should sit on our hands and do nothing.
Followed by a verbose speech about freedom and analogies to totalitarian regimes. Anyways, seems the fastest way to lose your audience and interlocutor is to accidentally spread climate change misinformation.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:56 AM on 25 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster and Others,
The post that BaerbelW @68 linked to is an excellent and comprehensive reference guide.
I would add that it is important to understand that many difficult interactions are essentially “Conflicts of Interest”. And they can only be resolved if there is an agreement regarding the objective.
As an engineer I learned that there are a diversity of acceptable ways to achieve an objective. The key is alignment regarding the objective. And the most essential objective is ‘minimizing harm done and minimizing risk of harm’ while developing improvements for the benefit of Others. If you are unable to establish alignment that the objective is the evidence-based pursuit of that objective there will be no ‘alignment on the acceptability of desired actions’.
For engineered structures there are a diversity of materials and types of structures that will be acceptably safe. The problematic conflict of interest is not the choice between comparably safe solutions. The problem is a desire for an alternative that would not be as harmless or safe. Cheaper, quicker, easier, and more profitable alternatives are often more harmful or less safe. So pursuit of any of those ‘objectives’ can create a harmful conflict of interest.
A final point. When the person you are dealing with tries to change the topic, because their original desired thoughts are not consistent with an evidence-based understanding of how to limit harm done and help others, try to remain focused on the original issue rather than be distracted by ‘the new alternative thoughts’.
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BaerbelW at 16:22 PM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster @67
One on one discussions with friends and family members can make sense but are obviously not easy. If you want to tackle them, please check this blog post about a neat communications flyer with tips on countering conspiracy theories and misinformation.
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PollutionMonster at 13:08 PM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Rob Honeycutt @64
Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Even real life friends it seems that the one versus one conversation seems pointless. The chances of changing their mind is maybe 1%.
As for others being interested in the science. I do know depends upon the forums. Some places it just seems like who can do the best job of a gish gallop of ad hominems, strawmans, and false accusations win. Do I defend myself or just stick to the science?
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One Planet Only Forever at 05:37 AM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
Re my comment @65,
I should have included the following reference:
RateHub "What is the total cost of ownership for a car?"
The RateHub evaluation includes costs excluded from CPA Canada link I provided @65 (which is largely based on, and refers to, the CAA's Driving Cost Calculator).
The RateHub evaluation includes consideration of things like parking costs and seasonal tire change-over.
And there are other costs to consider like new tires every 5 or 6 years. And a big cost that is not in the evaluations is unexpected repair costs (not part of the planned regular maintenance).
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:01 AM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
As Rob says @64,
In many cases a person may not admit to changing their opinion n an on-line back and forth, or a personal discussion. However, they may ultimately alter their thinking based on the interaction. But, in some cases, they will just alter onto a different inexcusable unjustified attempt to excuse or justify their developed liking for benefit from fossil fuel use.
It may help to share something like the following article from CPA Canada (Chartered Professional Accountants Canada). It lays out the cost facts about car ownership:
First-time car buyer? Here’s what you should be budgeting for.
That indicates that owning a small basic car costs about $1000 per month in Canada. And the type of vehicle (electric vs fossil fuel) would not make much of a differnce. Higher up front cost of an electric is offset by lower maintenance and lower fuel costs.
Bottom line - Car Ownership will always be a crippling expense for middle income and poorer people.
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Rob Honeycutt at 01:49 AM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
To add to OPOF @63... The first task for yourself is accepting you will never change that person's mind. Once someone has taken a firm position, as they seem to have done, it is virtually impossible to alter their base conclusions. In fact, they will become more intransigent over time.
If you're engaging with them one-on-one, the exchange will be a rather pointless task, other than what you may learn, yourself, through debunking myths. If you're engaging in a public forum, try to remember the other people who may be reading. There you might find minds that can be changed and people interested in the science.
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One Planet Only Forever at 00:03 AM on 24 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PollutionMonster @60,
The 'car' issue could be directly addressed.
Start with: AGREE with the person you are dealing with - Needing to own and use a vehicle is a very expensive requirement. It is a very "high cost of living" item faced by the poor.
Then address effective solutions to that problem: Reducing the need for a personal vehicle. Bike lanes can be part of the solution. And improved and lower cost public transit is also helpful. (Note that making harmful fossil fuel cheaper by not requiring the effort and cost of making it 'harmless' to be paid is not a solution - It is the origin of the problem. Fossil fuels always should have been much more expensive)
AGREE that a lack of use of Bike Lanes may indicate other systemic problems that need to be addressed to make it easier for poor people to live 'without a car' and with the freedom they can have by biking when the weather is not horrendous (when public transit would be the better option).
AGREE that helping the poor should not be "Paid for by the poor".
Some of those points or ways of presenting the case may apply to the Solar issue.
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John Mason at 16:39 PM on 23 February 2023At a glance - What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?
Good points there, John. Thanks.
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John Hartz at 15:14 PM on 23 February 2023At a glance - What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?
John M @ #2:
Taking into account what you said, I would bold the titles of the two books and put the date of publication for each in parenthesis immediately after the title. Doing so would let the reader know how old the books are.
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PollutionMonster at 14:06 PM on 23 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
I apologize that the inflammatory labels were too much, sorry you had to edit. Thanks for letting me know to keep the inflammatory labels down a bit. Still new here, I want to respect the rules, but gonna stumble some at first.
Rob Honeycutt @61
Thanks for the quick response. I want to focus on solar panels. That seems to be what the proverbial crankyuncles that I run into seem to be mentioning the most. I will put in fact, myth, fallacy, fact format a debunking. Though right now i don't have the scholarly peer reviewed articles to back up my conclusions.
Fact: Solar panels are a cheaper energy source than fossil fuels.
Myth: CO2 limits in the form of Solar panels will hurt the poor of the first world.
Fallacy: Cherry picking by using old data and omitting fossil fuel subsidies that can be used on clean energy. Hidden costs like healthcare and future generations having to clean up costs of pollution select evidence is used to come to the faulty conclusion.
Fact: Solar energy is cheaper than coal.
Analogy: Pretending that solar panels are still expensive is the same as imagining that all cell phones are still huge bricks.
Sources: NPR, Nature, and popularscience.
Solar cheaper than Coal NPR 2020
Popular science solar panels got cheap, 2021.
Nature 5.9 trillon fossil fuel subsidies.
Let me know if there is anyway to improve this debunking, and of course I would appreciate a fact check. The skeptic looks bad when the person who is denying climate science can prove them incorrect. Hopefully this is the correct thread to post this comment, seems the best to me, but I could be wrong. Thanks in advance. :)
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Rob Honeycutt at 10:32 AM on 23 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
PM @60... Sounds like your climate denier needs to pick a lane (pun intended) and stick to it rather than Gish galloping through all the topics they don't understand.
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PollutionMonster at 09:45 AM on 23 February 2023CO2 limits will hurt the poor
I could use some help I got a sanctimonious belligerent trollish climate change denier [snipped] scolding me for not caring about the poor in first world countries. They won't even tell me what country they are from.
They go on and on about bicycle lanes not being used and how the working class has to pay for them. That lashing rain, what in the world is lashing rain anyways, makes it too difficult to bicycle to work?
Then, they go on and on about the expense of electric cars and solar panels. I've found the electric car and solar panel argument to be very common.
Crank uncle: Electric cars and solar panels are too expensive for the poor!
Thank you in advance. :)
Moderator Response:[BL] Please keep the inflammatory labels down a bit.
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John Mason at 21:39 PM on 22 February 2023At a glance - What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?
I kinda agree with that, John. Italics are typical in most media outlets. However, you'd do well to find second-hand copies of the books mentioned in this case since they were published almost 50 years ago.
In the at-a-glance versions we avoid all things that could distract the reader: a link may break the flow of concentration as someone stops to think about clicking it or not. These are after all aimed at being inclusive and hopefully should be understandable to folk regardless of previous experience (or not) in the sciences. -
John Hartz at 14:45 PM on 22 February 2023At a glance - What were climate scientists predicting in the 1970s?
John Mason & Baerbel:
I suggest a protocol be adopted to bold the title of all books (see second paragraph of OP) and embed a link to a publisher and/or online seller of the book into the title of each book.
I also suggest a protocol to use italics for the title of all published papers (as was done in the third paragraph of the OP) and embed a link to the journal in which the paper appears.
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Rob Honeycutt at 02:38 AM on 22 February 2023It's not bad
PM @414... Oh, you'd hardly believe the number of times I've seen that line used. And, used seemingly in ernest, no less.
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PollutionMonster at 18:07 PM on 21 February 2023It's not bad
Rob Honeycutt @412
That's an awesome example. "I don't deny the Earth has a climate." I love it! Thank you. :)
Eclectic @413
Thanks this helps me a lot.
""Denier" is a handy short label for those who are opposed to taking action for fixing the global warming problem. They themselves dislike it, and whinge greatly about the label" Eclectic
I won't visit or even mention the name of the website you mentioned. I figure it is just giving them more ad revenue. As for the part about Africa, I call what the climate change denier is doing as concern trolling. This argument also relies heavily upon climate myth #3 it is not bad.
Sometimes the denier takes the moral grandstanding route, angry, and insulted when I implied they are a climate change denier. I usually, just apologize to be nice, but sometimes I think I apologize too much. Anti-vaxxers do this too.
Caricature of a climate argument.
me: "climate change can be prevented without pitting the enviorment versus poor people. I recommend the websites skepticalscience.com and crankyuncle."
Sample denier argument: "You are calling me a climate change denier by linking to the two links above. How dare you insult me! Calling me a climate change denier is an ad hominem and dehumanizing language. You should be ashamed of yourself. I will not stand for such harassment, abusive hate speech, I am highly offended!!!"
This moral outrage type of argument can be quite difficult to stomach. More so if they catch you off guard. Let's check my message, wait what? Let alone if I show any emotion especially anger.
me: "Wow, this is tin foil hat level of conspiracy thinking gish gallop."
Climate change denier: "Enough with the attitude! I wrote twenty pages and you dismiss my claims with a single sentence. You ignore all of my claims and make no effort. What do I get in response, snark? I find this disrespectful. Nobody listens to me. How dare you! "
Pay attention to the self-pity in the above paragraph. I can practically hear them playing a violin.
With your example of Africa the climate change denier tries to peg the skeptic as a member of the cabal, the denier as a member of the army of light, and everyone else as sheeple. That's why I think #3 its not bad is such an important myth to dispel.
The idea that proponents of climate change action are cast as the villains and deniers the heroes bothers me. Taken a step further the climate change denier sometimes resorts to abusive ad hominems and even threats. Justifying their nasty remarks and threats because in their warped sense of reality they are heroes defeating a horrific villain and saving the sheeple.
I call the tactic attack the skeptic. Sometimes I get a little scared when a denier uses violent rhetoric and graphic threats. At first I thought it was funny because it was so over the top. I though he was just poeing to be funny.
Poe's Law
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law
Pretty scary because this has been going on since about May 2022, I though if I ignored him he would just go away.
But I guess that's pretty normal if you debunk climate myths long enough you are going to attract a tin foil hat Young Earth Creationist Christian zealot who really thinks God is on their side believes in Qanon and views the opposition as a satanic threat. How common is this?
In conclusion, I think #3 myth it is not bad is a pretty good place to focus because climate change deniers love to declare themselves the heroes and vilify anyone who pushes climate change action.
Simplest form:
Climate change action advocate: "We should do something about climate change."
Denier: "You monster! Groups x,y, and z will be harmed by your immoral and reckless actions. We should be completely passive and do nothing because climate change is good."
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Eclectic at 13:43 PM on 21 February 2023It's not bad
"It's Not Bad" is quite a general topic, and covers many Denialist areas.
"Denier" is a handy short label for those who are opposed to taking action for fixing the global warming problem. They themselves dislike it, and whinge greatly about the label : but after all, a label usually doesn't matter much ~ since every reasonable person can recognize an alligator / crocodile / caiman by sight, regardless of its exact label.
No point in joining the bunfight at the famous blogsite WattsUpWithThat. WUWT is 98% echochamber, and shows the interesting range of deniers ~ extending from the studious intelligent ones who are crippled by their own motivated reasoning . . . to the crackpots who deny CO2-physics and/or deny there is any true warming occurring. And through to the paranoid political wingnuts who deny any AGW (or alternatively, claim that AGW is good for us and we should have more of it).
At WUWT there is a kaleidoscopic churning of all sorts of "reasons" why we should stay on fossil fuels and avoid renewables. #Now, during the past decade (as car lithium batteries have soared in number) WUWT has ranted about the need to increase coal usage to: "lift those poor Africans out of poverty" . . . and even more particularly: "EV batteries are causing small Congolese children to work in slave-like conditions in the cobalt mines".
The "poor Africans" argument I find remarkable, as it typically comes from American wingnuts who oppose any decent governmental help to their own American poor ~ and who themselves for the past half-century have have not lifted a finger personally to aid the African poor. And even now they still do nothing to help these children ~ and they completely fail to see that it is sheer poverty which forces African parents to send young children to the mines. Fixing the Root Cause is unthinkable.
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Rob Honeycutt at 11:33 AM on 21 February 2023It's not bad
PM @411... Many who claim not to be a climate denier are merely stretching the definition to make that claim. As in, "I don't deny the earth has a climate." And then if you point out the absurdity of that definition and clarify they're a climate change denier, they respond with, "But I don't deny that the earth's climate changes; in fact it's always changing."
Now, I generally try to skip all the inanities and go straight to the full scientifically accepted definition that... human activities, primarily through the burning of fossil fuels, are responsible for most or all of the warming of the past 50 years and best estimates show the earth will warm ~3°C per doubling of CO2 concentrations.
If they deny that, they're a climate denier. Plain and simple.
