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Comments 63751 to 63800:

  1. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam @12, if you think Abraham has not adequately responded to Monckton's criticisms, may I suggest you to Abraham's response, so that there is no question that it is on topic, and go through the criticisms one at a time, and one slide at a time. If you just drop a gish gallop on us, I will take that as clear evidence that you do not want to discuss the merits of the case, but only to create a false impression that Monckton has valid points. So, again I specify, one supposed misrepresentation or factual error by Abraham at a time. It will be very entertaining exposing Monckton's squidding* maneuvers when they are exposed step by step so that there is nowhere to hide. *squidding = disappearing in a cloud of ink, ie, spouting so much empty verbiage that your debate opponents do not have time to discuss and rebut all your comments. Monckton's original lecture was a Gish Gallop. His various responses to Abraham have been squidding in that he is trying to cover his tracks.
  2. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    "Monckton's replies and Gish Gallop of questions shifted the goalposts (in almost every question), presented yet more myths, misrepresentations, and other 'm's, many along the "when did you stop beating your wife" lines.....And that is for every single Monckton response and question I looked at." Please give direct examples of this. And might I once again point out that it has been nearly two years, and Abraham has still not replied to any of the points Monckton raised in his letter. "Monckton's verbiage is littered with them (as in "he looks like an overcooked prawn")" Monckton apologised for that statement in his letter.
  3. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Heartland is paid to do the dirty work that these companies and individuals do not want to do themselves. Secrecy means that their contributions go for actions that they might not want to be seen doing. Now they are caught and named in funding anti-science curricula and distractionist science. It is just business... and this means they have to spend lots more on PR to recover in the future. Or find another organization with information thugs.
  4. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    If Monckton's claims held any water he'd be published and win the Nobel.
  5. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam - Monckton is making some extraordinary claims, namely that all of the data and conclusions of climate science are incorrect. Extraordinary claims require, if not extraordinary evidence, at least some evidence. The burden of proof therefore rests with Monckton. So: can you point to a Monckton claim that you feel is actually supported? If so, I for one would be more than willing to discuss it - although I haven't seen a Monckton claim of that nature so far. But I'm certainly not going to waste my time chasing 400+ throw-away questions lacking evidential support.
  6. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam @12, SkS has a strict comments policy in order to keep discussions on topic. As part of policy, moderation complaints are deleted so that discussion does not become bogged down debating the merits of moderators decisions. Consequently, your last paragraph is of topic and is likely to be snipped (and the post is likely to be deleted on the same grounds). However, when you make a post and then include of topic discussion, you place it entirely within the moderators discretion as to whether the take the trouble to snip the offending section, or the much easier path (as it involves just one mouse click) of deleting the whole post. The do not owe it to you to take the more onerous route. Therefore, a word to the wise, do not give them reason to make that decision. Keep the snarky remarks and out, and keep the comment on moderation policy of any sort out unless you are happy to have your post deleted. Alternatively put, if you include such comments, it is reasonable to assume you want your post deleted and you should not complain about it.
  7. Dikran Marsupial at 04:42 AM on 19 February 2012
    A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam, I didn't say that Monckton is wrong, I just pointed out that he was using rhetorical devices. Now if you want to discuss his questions, then as I said, pick a thread and I will happily discuss them with you.
  8. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam - I've looked through both Abraham's and Monckton's presentations. I'll admit I did not go line-by-line, as I have a Real Life (TM) outside the blogs, but I looked over a representative sampling of each. From my reading and research: Abraham clearly found multiple misquotes, misinterpretations, and misrepresentations in Monckton's work, as supported by asking the scientists who Monckton quoted. Monckton's replies and Gish Gallop of questions shifted the goalposts (in almost every question), presented yet more myths, misrepresentations, and other 'm's, many along the "when did you stop beating your wife" lines. In addition, while claiming Abraham had engaged in ad hominen's (which he did not), Monckton's verbiage is littered with them (as in "he looks like an overcooked prawn"). And that is for every single Monckton response and question I looked at. --- Abraham supported his arguments and criticisms - Monckton did not. Abraham is a scientist, and approached the matter in that fashion, Monckton is a rhetoritician depending on verbal tricks. It's as plain as that.
  9. DenialGate Highlights Heartland's Selective NIPCC Science
    Yeah, I'm not counting on a Kitzmiller-style outcome for this. ID got its day in court because of the violation of the Establishment Clause. I don't see how the HI's curriculum could be challenged in court on constitutional grounds. Pretty much the only hope we have is that the bad publicity and attention that's been drawn to the plan on account of the leak will cause most decision-makers to shun it. Given the blatant politicization of policy in cases like the Texas Board of Education recently, that's nowhere near as secure a hope.
  10. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Mark R, Bernard J, Dikran, Alexandre, Enginerd, Stephen Baines, pbjam Have any of you actually read Monckton's reply to Abraham? He clearly went through point by point every single one of Abraham's claims and showed they were wrong. If Abraham's presentation was entirely correct, then he should have engaged with Monckton on the points he raised. Dikran "Adam, a "84-page letter and 466 questions", sounds very much like a Gish Gallop to me, which is a well known rhetorical device that is intended to evade topics that one does not want to discuss by presenting a profusion of other topics in the hopes that said opponent will either be distracted by one of them or not have the energy to address them all and as a result not bother to reply." I'm sorry Dikran, but that's a strawman argument. You can't simply 'assume' that Monckton is wrong, simply because of that statement. If you genuinely believe that Abraham was correct and that Monckton was wrong, please give specific examples of where Monckton is wrong in his reply. "Note also that if Abraham has retracted statements that he couldn't substantiate, then that doesn't necessarily present him in a bad light. One of Monckton's greatest problems is an inability to concede when he is in error, again this is something associated with rhetoric rather than science. " First of all, there is no "if". Abraham cut his whole presenation by 10 minutes this is basically acknowledging that Monckton was right about those issues. And you can't just claim that Abraham is 'good' simply because he acknowledged the errors. Many times in his talk Abraham knew full well he was wrong, yet stated it in anyway. He didn't really have any choice, but to admit he was wrong after Monckton's reply. Alexandre, how about actually confronting the arguments, rather than just saying demeaning insults. Tom Curtis Abraham's reply was not in response to the link I gave above, but to this article here http://cfact.eu/2010/06/04/climate-the-extremists-join-the-debate-at-last/ The link I gave above was a much more detailed and extremely thorough critique of Abraham's presentation. Abraham has not responded (or even acknowledged) Monckton's 84 page letter. It's not good enough that he simply acknowledged those particular errors. Abraham has never explicitly acknowledged the numerous major errors pointed out to him in Monckton's reply. "The expectation that Dr. Abraham should respond to 466 questions is comical." Enginerd, Abraham has had nearly two years to respond to Monckton, yet he has not done so. When Abraham did his presentation, he had the responsibility to reply to any critique. He stated himself at the beginning of the video that if anybody had any questions regarding his presentation they should contact him. But moderators thanks for letting my comment stay, as this hasn't always been the case for SkS http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/skepticalscience-rewriting-history/
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] Please do not try to provoke the moderators into deleting your post, as you did in the last paragraph. Comments directed towards the moderators are off-topic and as such are deleted (after being read). Please acquaint yourself with the comments policy.
  11. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    I noticed that too. My guess is that the contributions were in kind services of some sort, like the microsoft ones. But I have a hard time imagining what those services would be.
  12. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    @ RyanStarr #9: The funding provided to arch-conservative think tanks such as the Heartland Institute is not the only money spent by "Big Oil" to influence public policy and public opinion in the US and Canada. "Big Oil" spends big bucks on: 1. lobbying the federal governments of both the US and Canada, 2. donations to candidates for offices, PACs, and super-PACs, and, 3. "sublimibal messaging" about the benefits of maintaining "business as usual" thorough purchased advertising on the mainstream media. Of course, "Big Oil" is only one copmponent of the fossil fuel industry making these expenditures.
  13. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    skept.fr - My apologies, there is a terminology issue involved. When you said "dissipation", I interpreted that as heat energy leaving the climate system. The D'Araso paper you reference is speaking of dissipation in terms of energy shifts between various scales, from mass movements of the ocean currents to centimeter level turbulence (~9 orders of magnitude). Note from the D'Araso paper that wind is the primary energy input for mixing, upwelling and downwelling: "Although the basic characteristics of ocean circulation have been well known for many decades, a detailed understanding of its energetics has emerged only recently. The energy sources are well understood: Wind stress acting on surface currents (or “wind-work”), particularly in the Southern Ocean, is the dominant energy source, with little net input from heating/cooling or precipitation/evaporation. " D'Araso is primarily discussing how that energy of circulation moves from large-scale (10-100km) ocean movement into small-scale turbulence, the fluid dynamics of turbulence generation. One reason it's an interesting question is that a first-pass naive look at the dynamics seems to indicate that large scale kinetic movements are self-stabilizing, whereas as observed large scale movements cascade down into small scale turbulence - and that's the process D'Araso is exploring. This has implications in mixing ratios and heat distribution, which should be helpful for improving ocean circulation and energy distribution models.
  14. actually thoughtful at 03:51 AM on 19 February 2012
    DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Credit Union National Association?! Why? I am a member of a couple of credit unions. What is the best way for me to protest the use of MY money to fund the Heartland Institute (I just got a little sick thinking about it).
  15. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    pbjamm - worse yet, this time we did specifically email Monckton asking for clarification about a number of his comments (he's very bad about making his sources clear and seems to expect his audience to simply trust him, even though that trust has obviously not been earned, given his history of misrepresentations); Monckton did not reply to our request. Moreover, it's a sad excuse because his audience isn't going to email him asking for his sources. If somebody has to contact you to ask where you got information from in a presentation, the presentation is incomplete and unsatisfactory. Besides which, when he finally provides the sources for his comments, they still don't say what Monckton claims they do.
  16. Skepticism About Lower Atmosphere Temperature Data
    Dikran Marsupial: I shall do so in the future. I was pressed for time yesterday, and had reviewed the papers I posted not to long ago. They do add to the disucssion. Thank you for explaining the policy.
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] No problem. If in doubt, this format ought to be safe: (i) make an assertion, (ii) provide link, (iii) explain how the link supports assertion.
  17. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    @sky 47 Dutch org called DEOS tracks the Gulf Stream Current tracking http://rads.tudelft.nl/gulfstream/index.shtml Historical charts http://rads.tudelft.nl/gulfstream/gif/ A slowing around 2005 gave up some headlines (it didn't stop), and the fringe dragged it out in 2010 during the Macondo oil spill disaster.
    Moderator Response: links fixed
  18. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    MarkR#11, it is all described in the link. There is no money going to the scientists, they are, in effect "peer reviewing" (at no cost) articles sent in by citizens who have seen the effects of global warming in their area. The nonsense put out by Laframboise and other deniers is just more slander and smearing of climate scientists. Please check the link I gave. To claim that it is a conflict of interest for scientists to be on the Advisory Panel and also to be affiliated with the IPCC is just nonsense plus there is no attempt to hide their associations unlike the way deniers do.
  19. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Tom Curtis@7 This Monkton quote makes me chuckle: "he has even been imprudent enough to add quite a new and serious early in his talk, having failed yet again to check his facts with me." As though he were the ultimate authority rather than the peer reviewed scientific literature.
  20. Skepticism About Lower Atmosphere Temperature Data
    Camburn @37, I have often noticed that you have a modus operandi of providing a small link or undefended disparaging comment on the topic of any given post, thereby imposing a significant argumentative burden on those who wish show that the evidence in your links is irrelevant/off topic/ or just plain wrong. I do not have time to waste on those games of yours. Consequently I will simply point out where those comments or links violate the comment policy. If you actually want to discuss the topic, do so in good faith and take up the burden of explaining your sources, and showing the relevance to the topic. If in your opinion the sources are not worth that effort, I will take you opinion of their worth at face value and treat them as irrelevant to the discussion.
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] The point has been made, please lets go back to the science. I am sure that Camburn is now aware of the comments policy on this issue and will conform to it in future. Any further contravention of the comments policy will result in posts being deleted.
  21. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    I note that Fred Singer has pretty much confirmed receipt of the money and it has been used to "...hire students whose job it is to review current papers in the literature and these are reviewed and get published in the NIPCC reports."
  22. Skepticism About Lower Atmosphere Temperature Data
    Tom@35: Instead of discussing my posting skills, why not discuss the findings of the papers. nuoncounter@36: I will try to do so in the future. I have not noted any papers since the two that I posted that have changed the conclussions of the above papers. Do you know of any that disagree with the findings?
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] The comments policy does indeed forbid link only posts, and a substantive description of the content provided by the link is required. In future, please provide your interpretation of the evidence provided by the referenced material and explain how it is relevant to the discussion. This will encourage others to discuss the findings of the paper.
  23. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    RyanStarr#9: "And where's the 'Big Oil' we keep hearing about?" Right here: Based on this Heartland statement, in 2007 foundations provided approximately $3.69 million, corporations contributed $832,000 and approximately 1,600 individuals. Energy companies -- "coal, oil, natural gas, and nuclear" -- contributed approximately 5% or around $260,000.)
  24. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    "John Mashey, a retired computer scientist and Silicon Valley executive, said he filed a complaint to the IRS this week that said Heartland's public relations and lobbying efforts violated its non-profit status. Mashey said he sent off his audit, the product of three months' research, just a few hours before the unauthorised release of the Heartland documents." "I believe there was a massive abuse of 501c(3)," Mashey said. "My extensive study of these think anks showed numerous specific actions that violated the rules – such as that their work is supposed to be factually based. Such as there was a whole lot of behaviour that sure looked like lobbying and sending money to foreign organisations that are not charities." Source: Heartland Institute faces fresh scrutiny over tax status The U.S. charity laws appear to share our U.K. common law base of charity law. What is held in common is that falsehoods, bias and insufficiently researched studies all count against an organization being able to call itself a charity. Again in common, a charitable organization must be primarily engaged in a permitted activity, or what the tax authorities describe as an exempt purpose. "Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations." "To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), ..." IRS exemption requirements. caveat: I am not a lawyer. More info from John Mashey: Fake science, fakexperts, funny finances, free of tax
  25. DenialGate Highlights Heartland's Selective NIPCC Science
    Bernard J#32: "there would be an immediate and overwhelming testing of the material in court, a la Kitzmiller v. Dover " The grounds for Kitzmiller were based on the argument that ID is creationism in disguise. There is hardly an analogous argument to be made over the low quality of HI's so-called science. The teaching of bad science is still rampant: Interviews with Harvard graduates in the late 1980s illustrate how widespread these misconceptions about the seasons are. When asked what causes the seasons, most of the newly graduated students gave the same wrong answer that many people give: the seasons are caused by earth getting closer (or farther) from the sun. Given the amount of money the other side is willing to throw around, this would not be pretty.
  26. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Good grief. I'd like someone to explain to me how anyone can take Monckton seriously after what Abraham and Hadfield have revealed? It's clear as day he is willing do engage in any misrepresentation or fabrication as long as its suits his purpose. How can anyone trust an iota of what the guy says? BTW John and Dana, that graphic is cool. It's too bad the scientists are faceless however.
    Response: [JC] Stephen, help me track down photos of all the scientists and I'll happily update it. There are only so many hours in the day.
  27. The Year After McLean - A Review of 2011 Global Temperatures
    Suggest you have a look at my comment on Glenn's piece in "Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!" I can only get about 0.37W/sq.m of total OHC increase over the last 7 years. The latest Loeb paper quotes total global imbalance at 0.55+/-0.45W/sq.m: 1.0 or 0.1 confidence interval - pretty wide. Hansen quotes 0.6W/sq.m. I have never claimed that the warming imbalance has 'stopped' or even zeroed. I have claimed that it has reduced - much less on some analyses than the modelled 0.9 - 1.0W/sq.m. - or was never of that magnitude to start with - which poses a problem for the theory of *increasing* imbalance from steadily increasing human releases of CO2. [snip]
    Moderator Response: [Dikran Marsupial] I have stepped out of this discussion due to the need for moderation. Inflamatory content snipped. EVERYBODY involved in this discussion, please stick to the science; leave enforcement of the comments policy to the moderators.

    Also, please conduct any discussion of OHC on the other thread that Ken mentions so that we don't conduct the same discussion in parallel on both threads. I've added a link to Ken's earlier comment to make it easier to locate.
  28. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Thanks for this post. It was very interesting to see scientists explaining how their work has been misrepresented. I especially enjoyed the quote from Tad Pfeffer. Adam: I followed the first link provided in your comment. The expectation that Dr. Abraham should respond to 466 questions is comical. And, for what it's worth, the assertion that Abraham is somehow "surrendering" to Monckton immediately reminded me of Charlie Sheen insisting that he is "winning."
  29. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    Glenn The 0-2000m OHC chart shows a rise in OHC from roughly 12E22 Joules to 15E22 Joules over a period of 2005-2011 - 7 years. This is a rate of 3E22 Joules over 7 years or 0.43E22 Joules/year = 43E20 Joules/year. 145E20 Joules/year equates to a TOA imbalance of 0.9W/sq.m. So the 0-2000m OHC increase equates to 0.27W/sq.m at TOA. 2000m to the bottom is very uncertain. The last number I recall was around 0.1W/sq.m (Willis?) This makes a total OHC increase around 0.37W/sq.m TOA equivalent which is far short of the modelled 0.9-1.0W/sq.m - 10 year hiatus notwithstanding. What are you claiming is the OHC increase measured from 2000m to the bottom?
  30. DenialGate Highlights Heartland's Selective NIPCC Science
    The very public dissection of the Intelligent Design movement at the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area Board of Education trial was an enormous blow to the good PR that IDists had enjoyed until people got a close look at them.
    Stephen Baines at #29 pre-empted my response, but it merits a repetition of the basic notion. A part of me actually hopes that Heartland does try to put its K-12 material into schools, for exactly the outcome that would occur - there would be an immediate and overwhelming testing of the material in court, a la Kitzmiller v. Dover Area Board of Education. The queue of climate experts willing to testify would probably wrap around the block, and the likes of the Heartland rogues' gallery (and others such as Monckton and Watts) would either turn up to be scientifically emasculated in a legal test of their claims, or they would avoid the courtroom altogether and be conspicuously seen to be the flim-flam artists that they are. Frankly, I can't see that Heartland can in any way move on its schools plan now - not if they don't want to suffer an ignominious legal challenge. Further, I can't see that they or any of the other lobby groups could even attempt in their turn a legal challenge if, say, the AAAS helped to structure a K-12 program to enable in schools a greater scientific understanding of global warming: in any impartial courtroom testing of science, there would be only one possible outcome (yes, probably even in the States...). A corollary of this is that it's irrelevant whether of not that document is genuine - it's already done its job and the real scientific community will be carefully scrutinising the US school system for any sign of Heartland's plan, and the day that something appears on the radar there'll likely a complainant case ready to roll. I'd be surprised if such a case is not already being prepared somewhere, in anticipation. Heck, Skeptical Science represents the basic structure of such an effort, so if there isn't already a legal attack project running, a nacent one could do worse than to start here (...or at RealScience, of course!).
  31. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam @1, John Abraham has explicitly responded to Monckton's critique of his presentation here at Skeptical Science. In it he acknowledges just three errors in his original presentation: 1) He admits that Monckton says he was "bored" at one time in his speach, where as Abrahams originally quoted him as saying he was "boring". 2) He admits that some of Monckton's slides noted as containing information without reference are marked as being from the SPPI (of which Monckton is the Policy Director). However, he correctly notes that the SPPI was not the original source of the data so that that does not constitute a proper scientific reference (nor a reasonable aid in checking the veracity of the information). 3) He admits that just one slide of Monckton's containing information without reference was marked as data from the University of Alabama Hunstville. However he correctly maintains that that is not a proper scientific reference, which would include the papers name, journal and date of publication. At a minimum it should specify the channel, and version number of the UAH satellite temperature series, and the date on which the data was accessed. As we are now on (at least) version 5.2 of the UAH record, that is not a trivial issue: Abraham also notes an additional error in Monckton's speach. I quote from the second of your sources:
    "Abraham and the university are half-heartedly attempting to characterize the issue as a mere “academic dispute”, as if telling lies is what academics do. However Abraham has put up a new version and taken out the worst of the outrageously libelous errors, which amounts to a full ten minutes of lies removed! Abrahams original version. Newer, tamer, but still incorrect version. As Monckton points out on Watts Up, this is an admission on their part that the first version was libellous, but with many errors still remaining:"
    (My emphasis) I note that the underlined sentence is a direct lie. The University of St Thomas' lawyers had written to Monckton expressly stating that:
    "It is the University's position that Professor Abraham has done nothing improper or illegal in expressing his ideas and opinions on this matter and that Professor Abraham has not engaged in any academic or professional misconduct."
    Inferring an opinion in direct contradiction of a stated opinion that has not been retracted is not justifiable, and Monckton is certainly intelligent enough to know so. What is more, John Abraham continues to maintain both both his original and his revised presentations on his faculty website. As he continues to publish the original presentation, the implication that he has resiled from that is obviously ungrounded. Again, Monckton is in a position and intelligent enough to know this. Unfortunately he is also intelligent enough to know that his accolytes will not care for such matters of consistency, and unscrupulous enough to exploit that gullibility in his followers. Again quoting from your second link:
    "Plenty of libels indeed remain in the new version of Abraham’s talk: he has even been imprudent enough to add quite a new and serious early in his talk, having failed yet again to check his facts with me. In the new version of Abraham’s talk, every remaining libel will be regarded by the courts as malice, because he was told exactly what libels he had perpetrated, and was given a fair chance to retract and apologize, but he has wilfully chosen to persist in and repeat many of the libels. And when the courts find that his talk was and remains malicious, then he will have thrown away the one defense that might otherwise have worked for him – that in US law a public figure who sues for libel must be able to prove malice. I can prove it, in spades."
    The claim that Abraham has "willfully chosen to persist in and repeat many of the libels [sic]" directly contradicts the claim that Abraham and/or the University of St Thomas which continues to host both of his presentations, has surrendered. Therefore that claim is also deceptive. As the claim is made by Jonovva rather than by Monckton, I cannot attest sufficiently to he intelligence to know that it was deliberate deception (aka, a lie), or whether she was simply first deceived by Monckton. Finally, I have a friend who tells me to never attribute to dishonesty what you can attribute to stupidity. Therefore I cannot comment on the ethical basis of your regurgitation of Monckton's deceits.
  32. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    To the 'skeptics', any response counts as worthy. The important thing is to keep a safe distance from actually understanding the science, so that they can say "he responded and won!" Even if the 'skeptic' in question has in front of himself the juxtaposition of Monckton's crocks and the very scientists he cites contradicting him. I sometimes question the ability of human kind as a species to tackle this problem.
  33. Dikran Marsupial at 00:32 AM on 19 February 2012
    A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam, I should add that if you want to discuss any of Moncktons questions here at SkS, just pick an appropriate article (use the search facility) and I am sure there will be someone willing to discuss it with you (if it has to do with the carbon cycle, statistics or GCMs, I would probably be one of them). However, I would suggest you discuss one question at a time in depth.
  34. Dikran Marsupial at 00:29 AM on 19 February 2012
    A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Adam, a "84-page letter and 466 questions", sounds very much like a Gish Gallop to me, which is a well known rhetorical device that is intended to evade topics that one does not want to discuss by presenting a profusion of other topics in the hopes that said opponent will either be distracted by one of them or not have the energy to address them all and as a result not bother to reply. In science, we have found over the years that depth of discussion is generally preferable to breadth of discussion, as it is more likely to result in the truth. The depth of the discussion is often a good indicator of whether it is scientific or rehtorical; if someone obstructs in depth discussion of a particular topic, there is often a very good reason why. It is good that you mention Moncktons' reply, but it doesn't necessarily present him an a good light. Note also that if Abraham has retracted statements that he couldn't substantiate, then that doesn't necessarily present him in a bad light. One of Monckton's greatest problems is an inability to concede when he is in error, again this is something associated with rhetoric rather than science.
  35. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    Oh, please, for the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, both of those links are so riddled with errors that it would take a brave individual hours to catalog and rebut them all. Having said that though, Codling's last gasp:
    It's a bore listening to the endless triumphant claims that Monckton is not a Lord (as if it makes much difference to the climate), but for the record, here's his full explanation (from the Watts Up page) of how he does qualify, as he has always explained, as a non-voting hereditary member of the Upper House. [snip]
    is worth some scrutiny, if only because it's been completely stripped bare by those who should know:
    I must repeat my predecessor's statement that you are not and have never been a Member of the House of Lords. Your assertion that you are a Member, but without the right to sit or vote, is a contradiction in terms.
  36. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    #1 Adam, Monckton's Gish Gallops are absolutely enormous, and it takes time to analyse all of his claims. This is an introductory post, and as you can see, there are clear misrepresentations in what he's presented before. The Monckton reply you link to, for example, fabricates IPCC projections in order to make them look bad. Sure, he's excellent rhetorically, and can lead an audience on a merry dance with his debating skills, he seems completely unphased by repeatedly misrepresenting scientists. But SkS is about the evidence, and that's why we're comparing Monckton's claims with scientific evidence here. And you can see clearly, Monckton misrepresents. It's that simple.
  37. A mishmash of Monckton misrepresentation
    John Cook, why do you not reference Monckton's extremely detailed reply to Abraham. Abraham has not been able to answer any of the points that Monckton brought up, and he himself has actually surrendered to Monckton, as he has been forced to significantly edit his original video. 'Response to John Abraham' by Christopher Monckton Abraham surrenders to Monckton. Uni of St Thomas endorses untruths.
  38. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    #3 it would be good to see more information. Potential conflicts of interest should be out in the open, whereever the money comes from.
  39. Newcomers, Start Here
    Thanks guys.. and thanks CBDunkerson for the links.. they definitely answer some of what i was looking for..
  40. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    34 (Rob), 35 (KR) : for example, I don't understand very clearly what energy is concerned in this D'Araso et al 2011 paper. By "dissipation" rather than "storage", that is the kind of phenomena I've in mind (not just this one in particular, but the nature of energy in the ocean system). For example, once LW from CO2 (or SW from the Sun) warm the upper layers by radiative transfer, what will happen exactly in the ocean? How this oceanic heat surplus is transferred (where, when, which rate, which quantity, etc.)? Can heat fuels work, like in a Carnot cycle, or can a thermal energy produces be transformed in a kinetic energy? My questions are very basic and naïve, and that's why I search an educational introduction to ocean as an energy system.
  41. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    I’m pleased to see such knowledgeable people posting. Thanks. The comments help me so much to increase my knowledge and understanding. Might I add, has anyone observed any published results on the measurement of the strength and northern boundaries of the Atlantic Current or the Gulf stream? I understand that it is known by several names. The last I can find was in 2005. Sky
  42. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    RyanStarr - most oil companies have moved on from climate denial to acceptance, which makes it all the more confusing why so many continue to cling to their own climate denial.
  43. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Altria appears twice in the donors. Looking at combined 10/11 actual the order is: Nucor ($502,000), William Dunn ($480,000), Renaissance ReService ($407,000), Bartley Madden ($398,933), State Farm ($344,200). Three of them don't appear at all, and yet General Motors' piddly $45K gets in? And where's the 'Big Oil' we keep hearing about?
  44. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    The proposed payment to Loehle is small enough that he may simply not have felt it worth being associated with Heartland. I'm willing to take his word on it.
  45. Climate Insights: a series of bite sized videos on climate science
    You know, these really are well worth publicising, but, unsurprisingly, 'Denialgate' has rather overshadowed this post. Might I suggest a retry after the dust settles?
  46. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Tom @6, That may be, but why then is Loehle's salary still included in the budget at this point. Loehle or HI need to provide a timeline. When did they offer the payment to Loehle and did Loehle decline before or after these documents were created? These are valid questions IMHO. Call me cynical, but I do not trust these folks at all and it would be folly to take their claims at face value.
  47. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Albatross @2 if the HI's word that they proposed to pay Loehle is good enough to accept that fact, then Loehle's claim that he declined the offer is also goode enough to accept his claim. That is because there is no contradiction between the two claims. If, on the other hand a document turns up showing a payment in the budget (ie, a payment to have occurred) then that would raise a conflict between the two claims and require further explanation.
  48. Breaking News…The Earth Is Warming…Still!
    That would be bad. This would do virtually nothing to the change the energy imbalance - at best it would buy time.
  49. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    This graphic is not one of your best. A better graphic might be a scaled pipeline showing trickles in, and trickles out, explicitly by donor and ear-marked program. You could use the Heartland budget documents to itemize the various project-elements including climate, health-care or operations. That would more clearly indicate which funders are interested in funding which. You could even animate it using the available annual data. This would have the effect of highlighting the substantial changes in funding per program over the last few years.
  50. DenialGate - Infographic Illustrating the Heartland Denial Funding Machine
    Have we seen this - the open letter from climate scientists to Heartland in the Guardian?
    We know what it feels like to have private information stolen and posted online via illegal hacking. It happened to climate researchers in 2009 and again in 2011. Personal emails were culled through and taken out of context before they were posted online. In 2009, the Heartland Institute was among the groups that spread false allegations about what these stolen emails said. Despite multiple independent investigations, which demonstrated that allegations against scientists were false, the Heartland Institute continued to attack scientists based on the stolen emails. When more stolen emails were posted online in 2011, the Heartland Institute again pointed to their release and spread false claims about scientists.
    Bradley, Karoly, Santer, Schmidt, Mann, Overpeck, Trenberth.

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