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Stevo at 12:27 PM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
Agreed, Dana. The world's politicians and lobbyists are using Germany as an example of how switching to renewable energy works and how effective it is (or is not). The better an example they set, the sooner places like Australia, Canada and U.S.A. might take real action. -
actually thoughtful at 12:19 PM on 4 July 2011Google It - Clean Energy is Good for the Economy
Camburn in your post #32 you claim sensitivity is 1.0C - this is not within the currently accepted range and demonstrates you don't understand the physics. Will you kindly get of this thread (about the advantages of switching to clean energy NOW via a carbon tax) and get your confusion dealt with on the correct thread? It makes no sense for people to clog up EVERY single thread with the same tired, oft debunked claims. Frankly, Lindzen's claim that "what we've seen so far" suggests sensitivity is no higher than 1°C for doubled CO2 could not be further from the truth. Why don't you go to that thread, post all your credible facts and published papers that justify 1C - and if your ideas survive there, THEN bring them into general discussion, otherwise, you are just polluting the threads with debunked claims. You state some malarky about the status quo - YOU are the defender of BAU - which tanks the economy, and life as we know it. You are projecting to claim that that is somehow my position. It is a false claim. You would do better to not assume you understand (or question) my motives. Camburn if you only HAD an alternative view! All you do, on thread after thread, is post the same debunked claims about sea level, about 1C sensitivity - things we KNOW are false. PLEASE start presenting an alternative to BAU. As for your Chamber of Commerce level rah rah for North Dakota - Here is an article pointing out that EACH fracking well uses over one million gallons of water North Dakota Fracking Here we see North Dakota is not even in the top 10 for renewable energy production. Camburn do you have anything credible to add to the discussion? -
Stevo at 12:19 PM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Pardon my ham fisted typing - that should have read AIMS. -
Stevo at 12:16 PM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Rob - Spot on there! The AMS hardly starts from a pristine base. -
Camburn at 11:42 AM on 4 July 2011Google It - Clean Energy is Good for the Economy
Actually thoughtful: I will point you to the differences in the IPCC WG1 report. My position is well within that range. The 3.0 is an AVERAGE of the ranges, and is no more credible than any number used within the report. I am not here to try and convince you that that magic 3.0C is the right number, as it is within the range of presented numbers. Each and every number "could" be correct. I have my reasons to understand a lower number, you have yours to understand a higher number. If you want to present a number that is not presented there, then we have the need for a mutual discussion. But, as I have observed from your comments on this forum, I feel there is no need. I understand the physics veryyyyy well as I have been studying this issue for over 30 years. Even a lemming cleans something in that period of time. You seem to be here to present the status quo as you understand it. I am here to present solutions that I know are viable and very doable, and without any uncertainty. I live in a state that has abundant, to say the least, fossil fuel energy. Yet, we are a leader in renewables as well. Doesn't that strike you, from your view, as being in a leadership position? We are a conservative state that watches the dollars, live the land, breath the air. The nature of placement provides us with extreme weather on an annual basis. It also provides us with weather cycles. Example is Devils Lake. If you don't think we understand this issue, I can only say you are sadly mistaken. We are also a state that is very well educated and at the forfront of practical research. Energy & Environment Research Our coal gasification plant has, and is, investing more in carbon capture. IF the rest of the world took as much interest, care, and preservation of the environment as ND does, there would not even be a need for this discussion. I do think you attitude towards someone who presents an alternative view needs a bit of refinement. -
Rob Painting at 11:38 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Stevo/Chemware - I must admit I'm very biased against these sorts of survey results - they are contrary to what I've observed here in New Zealand too. Although we don't have coral reefs, I've witnessed a degradation in the local marine environment. Yet fisheries scientists assure the public that things are hunky dory and fish stocks are sustainably managed. It's preposterous - who do I believe them, or my lying eyes? It may be that fish stocks have been hammered down to a certain threshold and haven't plummeted any further -yet. That's a lot different to sustainably managed. I can dive in areas in there once existed vast schools of fish 20-25 years ago; now they're gone. Up and down the local coast we have proxy indicators for overfishing - kina (sea urchin) barrens. Crayfish and snapper feed on sea urchins, but in many areas vast armies are marching toward the shoreline stripping seaweed, which is a vital nursery for juvenile fish. It's a pretty good clue snapper and crayfish populations have been thrashed. I don't expect it helps at all to have such backward-thinking elements in ocean ecology research. Shouldn't we be making comparison to a healthy ocean state, rather than a grossly degraded one? -
scaddenp at 11:08 AM on 4 July 2011It's the sun
Perhaps you better have a look at this paper - note the authors = for latest on solar forcing before leaping to conclusion that solar is underrated. It also appears that you do not understand IPCC figure that KR posted. Noone expects (it would be utterly improbable) that temperatures follow the multimodel mean. You might want to look at this posting at RC for further explanation. Finally, a close study of Hansen et al 2011 might be useful. Especially note the comments on model handling of aerosol forcings in light of Argo data. -
dana1981 at 10:10 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
btw I just updated the post. Germany has recently passed laws to increase its share of renewable energy production from 17% to 35% of total production by 2020. That's not quite enough to replace all nuclear power (about 23%), however. I suspect they'll be replacing come aging coal plants with natural gas over that period as well. -
Camburn at 10:06 AM on 4 July 2011Google It - Clean Energy is Good for the Economy
scaddenp: I can think of one area close that has no dams on it right now. Yellowstone River. In my travels, I know the Missouri could have more dams. The wet cycle has been present for 20 years, and is projected to last another 60-100 years. Might as well take advantage of that. The dams would not have to be huge. A 100 MegWatt dam here, another there, and pretty soon we are talking major energy production. No one up here puts a fuel oil furnace in anymore. Most have gone to high eff LP or natural gas if available. Depending on location, (high ground water), a lot of geothermal have also been installed. North Dakota has been promoting this for a number of years. North Dakota Eduction -
Tom Curtis at 10:04 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Norman @225, please follow the logical steps: 1) Increased temperature implies increased specific humidity; 2) Increased specific humidity implies more water condenses as a result of cooling due to updrafts or frontal systems; 3) More water condensing implies more latent heat released; 4) More latent heat released implies a stronger updraft generated which: 4a) Results in greater cooling, with more water released; and 4b) Results in more air being drawn into the updraft, carrying more water with it. Please note that there is no contradiction between 4 and 4a. Although more heat is released, the updraft cools the air rapidly as it rises. The consequence is that where updrafts form, the moister the air, the stronger the thunderstorms that result, as in stronger winds as more air is drawn into the updraft, more intense rainfall as more water is precipitated out in a single column, more hail as precipitated water is carried to a greater height by the strong updraft before falling, and larger drops (and hence hail) as condensation is more rapid so fewer seeds are used, and more drops coalesce by collision. That is an observable pattern in weather systems quite independently of any considerations of global warming. It also makes the prediction of more, and more intense thunderstorms a straightforward consequence of global warming. There are complications relating to changes in weather patterns making some areas drier. There are also complications relating to the spawning of the most damaging convective storms, ie, tornadoes and hurricanes/typhoons/cyclones. The increased strength of convection is why the increased rainfall for the most intense 5% or 1% of rainfall events is expected to be much larger than 4% for a 4% increase in specific humidity. Turning to your height analogy, which I like, but which should be used cautiously; if the average height increases but variability remains unchanged, then the occurrence of more extremely tall people by the old definition of extremely tall will increase. Indeed, this effect will occur for any definition of "extremely tall" which is greater than the increase in average height. Consequently it does not matter whether you use a definition of 2 SD deviations above the original mean height, or 4 SD. Both are expected to increase. The only significant difference is that the 2 SD definition gives you a larger sample of "extreme tallness" to test for any increase. That is a crucial point. The effect of insisting on the more extreme definition is only to reduce your sample size, and hence make the data noisier. As it is, weather bureaus have definitions of "extreme weather" based on a simple metric - is the weather such that people should be warned about a risk of loss of life or property. If it is, its extreme. If it isn't, it isn't. That is a low bar in terms of return periods, but it is very practical for people receiving forecasts. Somebody receiving an "extreme weather warning" does not care how many standard deviations from the mean, or what the return interval is. They care about whether they should get their car under cover, or whether they are at risk from flash flooding. Well, global warming predicts that "at risk" episodes due to weather will increase. That is the hypothesis. For statistical convenience for some types of events (precipitation, thunderstorms) it is convenient to look at changes in return intervals to test that theory. For others (tornadoes and hurricanes), you just count the tornadoes and hurricanes and their relative intensity. Given that global warming predicts an increase of "at risk" episodes, defining "extreme" to mean "at risk of major catastrophe" episodes only reduces your statistical sample. It is a ploy to hide from the evidence. Nothing more. And on a side note, I (and I suspect Bérenyi Péter) are not experts in statistics (although Bérenyi is certainly much more competent than I am in that area). In contrast, Dikran is a genuine expert on statistics. To the extent that I am expert on anything (which I do not claim for anything) it would be logic and the use of words to convey meaning (philosophy of language). -
dana1981 at 09:59 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
It will be interesting to see how the Germans do. I really wish they would prioritize phasing-out coal first. If they can accomplish a phasing-out of both coal and nuclear at the same time, more power to them (no pun intended), but I'm skeptical (as is Chancellor Merkel). -
Chemware at 09:48 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Back in 1967 my dad and I went for a drive from Cairns up to Port Douglas (which was then a run-down fishing village) along the coast. I remember seeing corals that came right up to the shore. However, when I repeated that trip in the mid 2000s there were no corals along the coast. -
Stevo at 09:43 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Looking forward to the second part of this series. Agricultural runoff and overfishing have both done great damage - prawn trawling methods used on the central Queensland coast can be likened to clearfelling of the sea bed and harm biodiversity due to large amounts of bycatch. Add warming and acidification into the mix and I can't see a rosy future. -
kiwipoet at 09:41 AM on 4 July 2011Climate's changed before
Thanks Stephen Baines for your encouraging reply. I replied on this threat because that’s where E Sat’s post appeared. I will take the advice of the moderator, make some changes to the post, and place it on the infographic thread. Thanks moderator! A final thought, however, on the ‘climate’s changed before’ argument. By using the term ‘natural climate forcings’ for what we can observe in the past as opposed to ‘man-made’ global warming now, we reinforce the division between man and nature that has helped precipitate the crisis. (Anthropocentric is better word technically but doesn’t avoid the problem.) It seems important to stress that man’s activities are as much a natural force as any other. We are the volcanoes of the age. It is because we are an intrinsic part of nature that we can have such a profound impact on the planet. By accepting language that separates man from nature we are, conceptually, partly buying into the denier illusory worldview. -
BBD at 09:38 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
JMurphy #5 A very broad statement. Which I very cautiously agree with. But we are a long way from talking about renewables displacing nuclear. And it's not something that will wait. -
BBD at 09:12 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
Moderator #122 Apologies for overstepping the mark. I took my measure of what is acceptable from this:I get enough irrationalism on this site from the deniers. I don't need another source as well.
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JMurphy at 09:11 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
Nothing IS off the table, which is why nuclear must take its place as we move away from oil and coal. But nuclear is NOT the future, either : renewables are and will be. The sooner we can move to 100% renewables, the better. How we do that is an ongoing struggle. -
BBD at 08:52 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
JMurphy We both want the same thing: rapid global decarbonisation. Let's debate the fundamentals reasonably. Nothing off the table. -
BBD at 08:26 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
JMurphy Quoting Savacool #2Any rational investor, regulator, and citizen would choose instead to invest in the deployment of technologies that require little to no energy inputs so as to harness free and clean fuels widely throughout the world. Policy makers should peek beyond the smoke-and-mirrors Kabuki dance used to obscure the obvious advantages of renewable technologies and the obvious costs of nuclear systems. Any effective response to electricity demand in a world facing climate change involves enormous expansion in our use of renewable technologies and a steady abandonment of nuclear power.
This would be true if there was a convincing argument that renewables provide a more efficient path to rapid decarbonisation than does nuclear. -
JMurphy at 08:09 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
Another, more up-to-date, article from B.K. Savacool makes interesting reading too : This article judges modern nuclear power and renewable electricity technologies according to six criteria: cost; fuel availability; land degradation; water use; climate change; and safety/security. It concludes that when these criteria are taken into consideration, renewable electricity technologies present policy makers with a superior alternative for minimising the risk of fuel interruptions and shortages, helping improve the fragile transmission network and reducing environmental harm. As does this article, from him too - The ªSelf-Limitingº Future of Nuclear Power" : Any rational investor, regulator, and citizen would choose instead to invest in the deployment of technologies that require little to no energy inputs so as to harness free and clean fuels widely throughout the world. Policy makers should peek beyond the smoke-and-mirrors Kabuki dance used to obscure the obvious advantages of renewable technologies and the obvious costs of nuclear systems. Any effective response to electricity demand in a world facing climate change involves enormous expansion in our use of renewable technologies and a steady abandonment of nuclear power. -
Dikran Marsupial at 07:27 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Norman, take a GCM, which embodies our knowledge of climate physics. Apply CO2 radiative forcing, and observe an increase in rainfall frequency and intensity. Does it then become science? The obvious google search gave this example. I suspect there are more. -
scaddenp at 07:21 AM on 4 July 2011Google It - Clean Energy is Good for the Economy
Well Camburn, the point of carbon tax is to change the economics of things like oil-central heating versus non-carbon alternatives. That is the crux of its effectiveness. Biofuel is the other alternative for long range transport. Beside small-scale stuff like sewage-farm "cogen", capturing CO2 from steel-making and pushing that into algal diesel is an interesting idea. 2nd gen crude oil from wood might be interesting too. While these arent economic against current oil price with carbon tax, I doubt carbon tax will be necessary within 10 years. Hydro is major component of our electricity industry (75% renewable and growing) but sadly I am not so sure about its viability in much of US. The crucial element of being able to create a high fall with high water flow seems missing for much of US topography but it would be great if I was wrong. -
BBD at 07:21 AM on 4 July 2011German Energy Priorities
This is well put:Thus from a logical and scientific standpoint, Germany should first phase-out the use of more dangerous and environmentally damaging fossil fuels before pursuing a phase-out of nuclear power. Unfortunately the German public has its priorities backwards, phasing-out the energy source which poses less of a threat to both public health and the global climate.
It's worth bearing in mind that Germany is already barely coping:The four German TSOs have indicated that the nuclear power moratorium is having a significant impact on the German electricity supply system. Sufficient security of energy supply may not be guaranteed in southern Germany on very cold winter days with concurrent low wind power generation. Section 11(1) of the German Energy Act (EnWG) obliges transmission system operators (TSOs) to operate a secure, reliable and capable energy transmissions system without discrimination. Furthermore, they are obliged to maintain the system, to optimize it in line with demand, to strengthen it and to expand it, to the extent this is commercially reasonable. However, as unbundled TSOs do not generate the electricity, and as recent shutdowns are limiting German generation capacity, the German TSOs are facing a challenge to comply with their obligations. As a result of the Fukushima moratorium and scheduled revisions, only 4 of the 17 German nuclear power plants are currently online. Favourable conditions (low network load, strong solar, but rather low wind power input) and system operator interventions have so far made it possible to maintain network stability, the TSOs pointed out. Assuming no unusual events, the situation shall presumably be manageable also for the summer period, the four TSOs (Amprion GmbH, 50Hertz Transmission GmbH, EnbW Transportnetze AG and Tennet TSO GmbH) said. However, stability will require using every possibility form of redispatch measures, interventions in the electricity markets, to postponing urgent grid maintenance and expansion projects as well as power plant revisions, they added. The TSOs also indicated that the free electricity market will be suspended for considerable periods of time. Still the risk of power failure has increased, the TSOs said. In case input capacity remained reduced by 8,000 MW after the end of the 3-month nuclear power extension moratorium (on 15 June 2011), TSOs foresee problems in particular for the coming winter months, as the possibilities for interventions were largely exhausted. In (industrial) southern Germany the electricity demand might not be satisfied on cold cloudy winter days with a low wind power input in northern Germany. 2,000 MW of secure generation capacity would be missing in southern Germany. Demand might also not be covered by electricity imports if other countries consume their electricity output themselves. As a consequence the risk for large power outages will increase, the TSOs warned.
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Dikran Marsupial at 07:18 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Norman@227 Yes, that is the point, it was you that was mistakenly talking about proof. In the case of linking mechansims, these are well known to hydrologists. Knowing the mechanisms however does not mean that you can accurately predict something. You can write down the physics of a double pendulum on a side of A4, but you can't predict it exact course. Does that mean we can only have opinions about double pendulums, but not science? Of course not. You appear to have a rather unusual definition of science. -
dream1958 at 07:18 AM on 4 July 20112nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory
Will someone debunk this argument please? http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/02/17/regarding-thermodynamics-and-heat-transfer-why-al-gore’s-comments-to-bill-o’reilly-at-fox-news-are-wrong/#more-34175 -
Norman at 07:17 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Tom Curtis @ 219 Wow! You are definately a very intelligent person. I read through your post but will have to reread it a few times and think on it before composing a comment to what you have developed. I will try to make it satisfactory for your intellect. Thanks for taking the time to give such detailed and thoughtful responses. I know it took me awhile to find data to compose my post on Munich Re. -
Norman at 07:14 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Dirkan Marsupial @ 226 Sorry for the misunderstanding. You state "that a warmer atmosphere can contain more water vapour is not a hypothesis, or an educated guess, it is an observable fact." Yes it is, and that is not what I am calling a hypothesis. The hypothesis is that the current amount of moisture increase and temp increase will lead to more extreme weather events (at least to a noticeable degree). That is why I introduced the tall people analogy. I am not very good in statistics but I can understand the basics. I may be very wrong but the way to demonstrate your idea would be to make a precipitation graph with 4% more precipitation than another graph. Normal curve or flat tail whatever you want. You go out to the level of standard deviations you consider extreme and calculate how many more events occur with the 4% increase to see if it is noticeable enough at this time to attribute the recent floods to Global warming. -
jmsully at 07:04 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Rob, Thanks for pointing me to that post. -
Norman at 07:01 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Dirkan Marsupial @ 213 "It isn't proof, it is corroborative evidence. In science you can't prove by observation, only disprove, and constant calls for proof of AGW (which is known to be impossible, even if the theory is correct) is a form of denial." Maybe you can't prove by observation but you can certainly develop linking mechanisms to explain what causes observed behavior and gives you the ultimate scienctific goal, predictability. When Chemists came up with the atomic theory it became a very valuable tool to predict future interactions among elements and molecules. Just stating the earth is warmer and there is more water in the air does not justify the conclusion that more extreme weather related events become noticeably more probable. Extreme weather events are well outside the normal and are caused by certain events that take place in the atmosphere. Some are known and some are not. This is from an abstract I quoted in post 192. "This suggests that natural variability of the climate system could be the cause of the recent increase, although anthropogenic forcing due to increasing greenhouse gas concentrations cannot be discounted as another cause. It is likely that anthropogenic forcing will eventually cause global increases in extreme precipitation, primarily because of probable increases in atmospheric water vapor content and destabilization of the atmosphere. However, the location, timing, and magnitude of local and regional changes remain unknown because of uncertainties about future changes in the frequency/intensity of meteorological systems that cause extreme precipitation." That is what is needed to become a science. You need mechanisms that explain past weather extremes (floods, hurricanes, droughts, tornadoes, heat waves, cold waves, snow). For instance, what were mechanisms that caused floods in Australia's past? Certain atmopheric and ocean conditions are set up that will lead to flooding. Once you get a good mechanism developed it will lead to future predicability and you will easily be able to see if global warming is increasing the return time of a given weather extreme because of how it effects the overall mechanism you found that produces flooding in Australia. Without offering a mechanism of how floods occur then you definately don't have a science. You have an opinion. Science is always going to the next level. -
Dikran Marsupial at 06:44 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Norman, that a warmer atmosphere can contain more water vapour is not a hypothesis, or an educated guess, it is an observable fact. That there is more evaporation in warmer conditions is similarly observable fact. Having more water in the atmosphere gives greater scope for heavy rainfall. You accept that it will increase normal rainfall, can you suggest a physical reason why it would increase normal rainfall but not extreme rainfall? Later on you write "No doubt if you keep increasing the moisture content you will reach a point where exterme events will be more likely (extreme based upon previous levels)." which suggests that you also accept that warmer conditions will lead to an increase in extreme events! I don't understand why you think there is some sort of threshold, it seems to me much more plausible that the probability of an extreme event (or equivalently its return period) is a continuous function of humidity (and a bunch of other variables). -
BBD at 06:39 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
dana1981However, a number of German studies found that they could at least reduce their use of coal even while phasing-out nuclear power, and may even be able to replace both with renewables simultaneously (though Merkel thinks some new fossil fuel plants will be necessary in order to meet the nuclear phase-out).
So we have studies in which Ch.Merkel has apparently limited confidence. Germany phases out nuclear, and in all probability is forced to install more conventional plant. Emissions will: - stay the same - rise - fall We shall see. What concerns me is things like this:The four German TSOs have indicated that the nuclear power moratorium is having a significant impact on the German electricity supply system. Sufficient security of energy supply may not be guaranteed in southern Germany on very cold winter days with concurrent low wind power generation. Section 11(1) of the German Energy Act (EnWG) obliges transmission system operators (TSOs) to operate a secure, reliable and capable energy transmissions system without discrimination. Furthermore, they are obliged to maintain the system, to optimize it in line with demand, to strengthen it and to expand it, to the extent this is commercially reasonable. However, as unbundled TSOs do not generate the electricity, and as recent shutdowns are limiting German generation capacity, the German TSOs are facing a challenge to comply with their obligations. As a result of the Fukushima moratorium and scheduled revisions, only 4 of the 17 German nuclear power plants are currently online. Favourable conditions (low network load, strong solar, but rather low wind power input) and system operator interventions have so far made it possible to maintain network stability, the TSOs pointed out. Assuming no unusual events, the situation shall presumably be manageable also for the summer period, the four TSOs (Amprion GmbH, 50Hertz Transmission GmbH, EnbW Transportnetze AG and Tennet TSO GmbH) said. However, stability will require using every possibility form of redispatch measures, interventions in the electricity markets, to postponing urgent grid maintenance and expansion projects as well as power plant revisions, they added. The TSOs also indicated that the free electricity market will be suspended for considerable periods of time. Still the risk of power failure has increased, the TSOs said. In case input capacity remained reduced by 8,000 MW after the end of the 3-month nuclear power extension moratorium (on 15 June 2011), TSOs foresee problems in particular for the coming winter months, as the possibilities for interventions were largely exhausted. In (industrial) southern Germany the electricity demand might not be satisfied on cold cloudy winter days with a low wind power input in northern Germany. 2,000 MW of secure generation capacity would be missing in southern Germany. Demand might also not be covered by electricity imports if other countries consume their electricity output themselves. As a consequence the risk for large power outages will increase, the TSOs warned.
Must read your post though. And thank you for staying with this thread. -
Norman at 06:24 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Dikran Marsupial @ 213 "A warmer world means that the atmosphere can hold more water vapour, and thus there will be a strengthening of the hydrological cycle. A consequence of that is likely to be an increase in extreme weather in some places. Thus an increase in weather extremes is what you would expect to see if AGW is ocurring, but it isn't poof. If you think that is not good science, then it is your understanding that is at fault." What you describe it the first stage of science. It is a hypothesis (educated guess). Inceasing the water vapour in the atmosphere should increase the normal rainfall amounts and you should see an upward rise for these measurements. I do not know how this would lead to a necessary increase in extreme weather in some places. I guess it comes down to how "extreme weather" is defined. There is a nice ongoing debate between you, Tom Curtis and Eric (skeptic) about what is an extreme weather or climate event. As of my post reading so far, it does not seem the issue is yet resolved. Here is an analogy to consider. On the Wikipedia explanation of Standard Deviation Standared Deviation. They give an example of Standard Deviation: "A slightly more complicated real life example, the average height for adult men in the United States is about 70", with a standard deviation of around 3". This means that most men (about 68%, assuming a normal distribution) have a height within 3" of the mean (67"–73") — one standard deviation — and almost all men (about 95%) have a height within 6" of the mean (64"–76") — two standard deviations. If the standard deviation were zero, then all men would be exactly 70" tall. If the standard deviation were 20", then men would have much more variable heights, with a typical range of about 50"–90". Three standard deviations account for 99.7% of the sample population being studied, assuming the distribution is normal (bell-shaped)." The first point is what is a good definition of extreme height for an American male? Two standard deviations above the normal is 6 feet 3 inches (sorry for English terms or 1.95 meters). This is not an extreme height in my opinion. Tall yes, but not extreme. So extreme is in the "eye of the beholder". I will think 6' 8" (2.03 meters) would be an extreme height (like the Moscow heatwave "Take for example the Moscow heat wave of 2010, with an expected return interval, which lay just above 4 standard deviations above the mean for July temperatures" From Tom Curtis at 214). That is the groundwork of this analogy. Now we have a population that wants to get taller so as a group they all begin to take a growth hormone which will raise the average height by 4% (the amount of water vapor that has increased in our atmosphere due to warming). 4% of 70 inches is 2.8 inches. Our entire population is 4% taller, some are more or less affected but the average increase is 4%. Will this 2.8" in average height now mean we have a noticeable increase in 7 foot tall men from this growth hormone? It may well do this. I would need some proof of it. No doubt if you keep increasing the moisture content you will reach a point where exterme events will be more likely (extreme based upon previous levels). I am not convinced, at this time, 4% is enough to push us to the new normal. The statistical experts that post on this thread (Tom Curtis or Berenyi Peter) may be able to demonstrate a 4% increase would make it noticeably more likely to effect the far ends of the normal curve. I am not sure. There would be calculations for this. -
Dikran Marsupial at 05:54 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Eric (223) I have pointed out to you more than once that return periods are conditioned on factors such as location. If you want the return period for a particular event at a particular station, that is one calculation. The return period for an extreme event occurring at one or more stations within a region is a different calculation. However, rather than rolling your own statistics, it would be better to first acquaint yourself with the standard solution developed by leading statisticians, namely extreme value theory. Extreme events generally ocurr to a coincidence of factors combining constructively. These same factors when they partially cancel out (which is what happens most of the time) is what generates the central parts of the distribution. However the factors are there for both the extremes and the day to day. The difference is in how they combine. Now if you can give an example where the physical mechanism of an extreme is different from the day to day, then give an example. Just asserting that they are different does not establish that they are. As it happens, modelling rainfall extremes in this way does actually work quite well (see e.g. this paper). -
BBD at 05:49 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
To be absolutely clear: I do not advocate nuclear because I think it is risk-free and wonderful. I do so because unlike some here, I can see no option. -
BBD at 05:47 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
JMurphy I do not excuse the insane siting of Fukushima 1. I do not excuse laxity in the inspection and maintenance regimes at the plant. But the damage to it was indisputably caused by the earthquake and tsunami. This is a matter of fact. You are going beyond matters of fact. See #101:Let's remember that Fukushima was a natural disaster that damaged a 40 year old plant which was both poorly designed and appallingly sited. The news about the cesium detected in child urine samples is extremely vague and inconclusive and more accurate information from a large sample is required. It is also essential to understand whether the contamination was from airborne or dietary pathways. It is a matter for serious concern. I don't think we should go any further yet. And I don't like the usual emoting and distorting that is coming from the anti-nuclear lobby either.
WRT the INES 7 classification of Fukushima - you still haven't read the facts about Chernobyl, I see.(Sorry to have gone one but I always argue against blind faith)
And your views on the potential for renewables to displace coal and nuclear are based on what, exactly? -
dana1981 at 05:29 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
I think Germany is a good example here (see the German Energy Priorities post I just published). They've decided that phasing out nuclear power is their top priority, whereas I agree with Tom that we should maintain what nuclear power we currently have and phase-out fossil fuels first. However, a number of German studies found that they could at least reduce their use of coal even while phasing-out nuclear power, and may even be able to replace both with renewables simultaneously (though Merkel thinks some new fossil fuel plants will be necessary in order to meet the nuclear phase-out). So it will be interesting to see if Germany can do what BBD seems to think can't be done. They seem confident that they can. -
JMurphy at 05:09 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
OK, a final highlight of pro-nuclearitis : BBD : "You close with this: 'The fact that you try to lessen the seriousness, speaks volumes.' This is incorrect and strategically dishonest, which is in line with much else you say here." Really ? Compare and contrast : BBD : "It is a grotesque misrepresentation. There have been no fatalities and none are currently expected. In other words, such contamination as may have occurred is likely to be minor and transient." BBD : "After all, Fukushima has caused no fatalities, and resulted in no life-threatening exposure to radiation. Odd, isn't it?" Odd indeed...if you want to believe in fortune-telling, rely on wishful-thinking and wear rose-tinted glasses : Results of ACRO's monitoring in Japan (30th june 2011 update) Overall, the situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant remains very serious. Perhaps you should put the IAEA straight and tell everyone in the vicinity that they are currently not expected to die or be affected by radiation in any shape or form, now or in the future ? I'm sure they'll respect your opinion. BBD : "You seem to have forgotten that the Chernobyl and Fukushima events were caused by abysmally poor design and afflicted plant many decades old." BBD : "Some of what you say confuses me, but Fukushima 1 was 40 years old and badly designed. And it still worked fine until hit by a massive earthquake and inundated by the consequent tsunami." Old, badly-designed...and, perhaps, affected by falsified safety records for more than 10 years; a failure to inspect 33 pieces of equipment; a long-term, incestuous relationships between government regulatory bodies and this particular private industry (the cosying up which you seem to support, at least in the UK); and the ignoring of concerns about potential earthquake damage. Yes, that sure is 'working fine' - in a broken, corrupt kind of way. BBD : "However, the INES 7 ratings for Chernobyl and Fukushima are puzzling" BBD : "When you do get a minute to review the evidence, you can see for yourself that the INES 7 rating for Fukushima may have been an over-reaction." Perhaps you had better seek and dole-out more enlightenment : IAEA - Level 7 : "An event resulting in an environmental release corresponding to a quantity of radioactivity radiologically equivalent to a release to the atmosphere of more than several tens of thousands of terabecquerels of [iodine-131]" This corresponds to a large fraction of the core inventory of a power reactor, typically involving a mixture of short and long lived radionuclides. With such a release, stochastic health effects over a wide area, perhaps involving more than one country, are expected, and there is a possibility of deterministic health effects. Long-term environmental consequences are also likely, and it is very likely that protective action such as sheltering and evacuation will be judged necessary to prevent or limit health effects on members of the public. JAIF - Many areas still showing 'High' and 'Severe (Need immediate action)' Significance, and many Countermeasures that are still 'Under construction' or 'To be done (including studying and manufacturing)'. Maybe you should tell them where they are going wrong and that they are indulging in "over-reaction". Finally, as I have already said here (and elsewhere) : I believe it is an old, dirty and dangerous way of producing energy and that we should move as quickly as possible to renewable sources, but that doesn't mean that I don't think it shouldn't be used now, where there are no other options. It should only be a last resort, though, and only as a temporary stop-gap before renewables take over. It is just your evangelism for nuclear that makes you see anti-nuclear 'enemies' everywhere - perhaps even under your bed. (Sorry to have gone one but I always argue against blind faith) Fin -
Rob Painting at 05:05 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
jmsully - You might want to ask John Bruno as well, given that he provided comment on the Osborne 2011 paper. The SkS link in the blog post above - that's to John Bruno's discussion about the AIMS survey. -
Eric (skeptic) at 04:42 AM on 4 July 20112010 - 2011: Earth's most extreme weather since 1816?
Dikran, the events are not a dime a dozen, but the locations for potential extreme events are. So we have a situation of numerous independent tests of an event with a very low probability (by the recurrence measurement). By multiplying the probabilities of nonoccurence at each location we can determine the probability that the event will not occur at any location, then invert that to obtain the probability of occurrence. For example an event that has 0.1% probability in one location will have 1 - (0.001 ^ 100) or 9.5% probability in any one of 100 locations. The caveat is that the weather event occurrences are not necessarily independent tests. The other problem with the binomial approach is that it that the extreme event has to be defined a priori. As an extreme example I could define "extreme" as 1.00 inches, no more and no less. Or 0.99 inches. The more of these events that I invent, the greater the probability that an event will occur. Those are analogous to the head post stating: "The formation of Tomas so far south and east so late in the season (October 29) was unprecedented in the historical record; no named storm had ever been present east of the Lesser Antilles (61.5°W) and south of 12°N latitude so late in the year" (from the head post). I could easily pick some year in the 1950's or other early year and pick out a hurricane that formed so early so far west or north or late and farther north or any of dozens of potential combinations. Then I can point to the lack of a trend since the 1950's since I invented all those extremes for that decade. Tom, I think we are differing on the definition of extreme event. I find it critical to define that up front, then look for trends, then attribute to AGW and natural causes. The fact that Toowoomba's flash flood event has gone from 1 in 100 to 1 in 20 may be a suitable topic to study attribution, but not attribution of extreme events. The Toowoomba event was one location but the probability of an occurrence of such an event must be calculated across all potential flash flood locations. In that context the Toowoomba event is not extreme because if it didn't happen there, it could happen somewhere else. Dikran (222) I don't think you can equate the physical processes of the extreme and day-to-day events nor use the statistics of the day-to-day events to say anything about the probability of extreme events. -
BBD at 04:26 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
Mark Harrigan 123Still - I like this debate. At least it focuses on what the options are to move forwards and Mark's contribution is certainly a positive one
Not if it's wrong, and being used to push energy policy in the wrong direction. Tom Curtis asks me above (114): Why the bitter and unenlightening attack on renewables? I think this is unreasonably harsh, but then I would. However, if TC had read my original comments when I joined the thread, he would understand why I have a problem with renewables advocacy. It is fantastically dangerous to energy policy (see #69 and above, where Hansen's warning to President Obama is discussed), and it is going to cause an energy policy disaster in the UK (see #72). It will cause an energy policy disaster everywhere in due course, if not stopped, but I happen to be in the UK where I can see what is going on (eg #98; #99). What such activism is not going to do is displace coal significantly from the global energy mix. Which means it is as dangerous from a climate perspective as scepticism. We need to get past the all-consuming anti-nuclear bias and accept the unpalatable facts as they stand. Then formulate energy policy that makes sense. -
jmsully at 04:22 AM on 4 July 2011Great Barrier Reef Part 1: Current Conditions and Human Impacts
Dr. Hoegh-Guldberg, I was wondering what you thought of this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3053361/ recently published in PLoS One which analyzes the AMIS data to come to the conclusion that there is no widespread decline in coral coverage. My initial thought was that it focused on too narrow a question, but otherwise seemed OK. Of course this is being used by denialists to claim that "coral reefs are OK! Nothing to worry about!", but I'd be interested in your take. -
BBD at 04:12 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
dana1981 See SPM p19:More than half of the scenarios show a contribution from RE in excess of a 17% share of primary energy supply in 2030 rising to more than 27% in 2050. The scenarios with the highest RE shares reach approximately 43% in 2030 and 77% in 2050.
Teske is the outlier. The report points to ca 30% RE by 2050. I don't want to argue about this sort of thing; it's pointless. The press release grossly misrepresented the actual report. Which was both exceptionally stupid of the IPCC, and unforgivable. -
dana1981 at 03:52 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
BBD - not sure what you mean about SRREN. It examined 164 different scenarios, up to 77% renewable production by 2050. Mark - in response to your #1, I don't think there's enough wind turbines installed in any single country to test that load management. Regarding #2, it would depend on how much the gas turbines were fueled by natural gas vs. biofuel, for one thing. How many gas turbines would be necessary would depend on the breakdown of the rest of the power grid mix. But remember that even natural gas has significantly lower CO2 emissions than coal, and these gas turbines are proposed to operate as peak load power, only used when there is insufficient wind and solar energy to meet demand. Solar PV costs have been declining quite rapidly, as well. They're expected to become as cheap as coal power (without subsidies, and excluding coal external costs) within the next decade. -
BBD at 03:50 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
Mark Harrigan #123 Good to see some critical thinking ;-)1) Have there been any actually implementations of this sort of load management model implemented on any serious commercial scale (as opposed to modelling)? [No] 2) Just how much "peak load" gas type generation will be needed in a given annual scenario and how much CO2 might they produce (for example as a % of today's Australian emissions assuming the same generation requirements as today). In other words if we could wave a magic wand and switch on Mark's proposal tomorrow what would that do to emissions?
Perhaps an even earlier question to ask than your (2) is: what kind of gas turbine can be brought up from cold shutdown to full operating capacity fast enough to respond to peaking demand? And why, in countries such as the UK, can't we have some? Instead, we are obliged to compensate for wind intermittency with gas turbines permanently running because they cannot otherwise respond quickly enough to allow grid balancing? Needless to say, this cancels out any emissions saving from UK wind. And it might do worse. Consider this statement by someone who knows what they are talking about:One of Britain's leading energy providers warned yesterday that Britain will need substantial fossil fuel generation to back up the renewable energy it needs to meet European Union targets. The UK has to meet a target of 15% of energy from renewables by 2020. E.ON said that it could take 50 gigawatts of renewable electricity generation to meet the EU target. But it would require up to 90% of this amount as backup from coal and gas plants to ensure supply when intermittent renewable supplies were not available. That would push Britain's installed power base from the existing 76 gigawatts to 120 gigawatts. Paul Golby, E.ON UK's chief executive, declined to be drawn on how much the expansion would cost, beyond saying it would be "significant". Industry sources estimate the bill for additional generation could be well in excess of £50bn.
-
Patrick 027 at 03:42 AM on 4 July 2011The Planetary Greenhouse Engine Revisited
(PS of course liquid water coexists with vapor over a range of temperatures, but the vapor phase is in a mixture in such familiar conditions. If the vapor phase were chemically pure, then the vapor pressure would be the pressure that the liquid is at as well.) -
Patrick 027 at 03:38 AM on 4 July 2011The Planetary Greenhouse Engine Revisited
Re Michele - The cooling effect occurs within the isothermal sinks because the conversion heat->EM radiation, in effect, is a phase transition... That last term - maybe part of the problem? Granted, energy is changing forms and so that could be considered a phase transition, but when I here 'phase transition', I generally think of a substance or mixture changing from a solid to a liquid and/or to a gas, etc., or various changes between different crystal structures. Sometimes I think this may also involve changes in chemical equilibria (I think in some cases a liquid may react with a solid to form a different solid during a phase transition in which each solid is a different substance (though with dissolved impurities); it certainly can involve solid vs liquid vs gas solubility. For a pure substance, generally (so far as I know) such physical phase transitions occur isothermally (if provided they are also isobaric) - meaning that the two or more phases only coexist in equilibrium at a single temperature (for a particular pressure). And any latent heat involved must be given off or taken up at that point. However, in mixtures, it can often be the case that a phase transition occurs gradually. This may be punctuated by some isothermal (if isobaric) phase transitions (for example, if I remember correctly, the point at which the remaining liquid freezes into two different solids in a eutectic phase transition (this can happen because two substances may be miscible as liquids but only have limited solubility in each other as solids)), but in between there are spans of temperature in which different phases coexist, with proportions varying gradually - the phases will generally have different compositions that vary with temperature and the composition of the whole is maintained by changing the mix of phases. This is commonly the case between a liquid and solid phase. In a phase diagram, this is illustrated with lines/curves, I think they're called the solidus and the liquidus. Other interesting terms - peritectic, syntectic, etc. And of course, chemical equilibrium varies gradually (although maybe sometimes quickly) over a span of temperature. Anyway, none of this really is quite the same as changing the form of energy from a difference in vibration/rotation mode to a photon. Each type of transition behaves according to the relavent physics. Photons don't 'boil off' a material like steam from liquid water at a single set temperature. -
Mark Harrigan at 03:07 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
Haven't read all the posts here but would like to ask when Mark Diesendorf says "There are a number of renewable energy technologies which can supply baseload power. The intermittency of other sources such as wind and solar photovoltaic can be addressed by interconnecting power plants which are widely geographically distributed, and by coupling them with peak-load plants such as gas turbines fueled by biofuels or natural gas which can quickly be switched on to fill in gaps of low wind or solar production." 1) Have there been any actually implementations of this sort of load management model implemented on any serious commercial scale (as opposed to modelling)? 2) Just how much "peak load" gas type generation will be needed in a given annual scenario and how much CO2 might they produce (for example as a % of today's Australian emissions assuming the same generation requirements as today). In other words if we could wave a magic wand and switch on Mark's proposal tomorrow what would that do to emissions? Despite the proselytising of Wind, data I have seen suggests it's load factor is about 1/3 of gas or coal. I have even heard it alleged that sometimes lots of Wind can lead to increased emissions because it can displace other forms of renewables and the need for the back up generators can cause problems - but I confess I don't know how reliable that allegation might be. So how many wind plants would be needed and how widely distributed would they need to be on a well connected grid to achieve the model parameters Mark sets out? Is this practical in Australia? The problem with Solar Thermal, as I see it and by Mark's own admission, is that it is simply not a commercially viable technology yet. A 20 Megawatt plant that can only operate less than 3/4 of the year is hardly inspiring. Solar PV remains grossly expensive in terms of the cost per tonne of carbon offset and I'm yet to hear of any Solar PV plants in commercial operation producing more than 100MW. Given that Australia currently has well over 50GigaWatt generating capacity it's hard for me to see how we can replace that so easily with the alternatives on offer - at least not very quickly within our financial means and not with the relatively poor grid interconnection available today. I have to confess, as much as I might find it appealing, I am sceptical about Mark Diesendorf's approach as being practical or affordable in the near to medium term. Still - I like this debate. At least it focuses on what the options are to move forwards and Mark's contribution is certainly a positive one -
BBD at 02:50 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
Tom Curtis Your points 1 - 4 are entirely reasonable. Your apparent belief in the ability of renewables to displace coal significantly by 2050 is not. You have not justified your position, so you have effectively lost this debate. Your misreading of Hansen's letter is obtuse. End of. WRT nuclear safety, I find your position untenable, and your reasoning misleading. You obviously don't take well to criticism:Anyway, this will be my last post responding to you. You have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to enter into rational debate, to the extent that you have several times completely ignored my clear statements and tried to set me up as as strawman. You have also repeatedly repudiated the burden of justifying your claims when challenged. I get enough irrationalism on this site from the deniers. I don't need another source as well.
Oho. I see. Fine, off you go then. ( -Snip- ).Moderator Response: (DB) Inflammatory snipped. -
Tom Curtis at 02:00 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
BBD @114, I repeat:"I still think the letter contains good sense - all of it. But I have to wonder, seeing you have introduced Hansen as an authority why you are ignoring those sections that I have highlighted? Why the bitter and unenlightening attack on renewables?"
(emphasis added) So, as explicitly stated, I introduced highlighting not to "reveal the true meaning" of Hansen's quote, but simply to emphasise those parts of it which obviously you find uncomfortable, and which contradict the line you are pushing. Further, no body can ever reveal the "true meaning" of a quote by adding emphasis. Adding emphasis changes emphasis, and by doing so changes the meaning. That is why people who are concerned about accuracy of quotation always note when they add emphasis, and your failure to do so shows that accuracy in conveying Hansen's meaning is not a concern of yours. In fact, you clearly attempt to distort his meaning when you say "... when renewables fail to deliver on the hype (as Hansen clearly believes is likely)...". Indeed, Hansen's "carefully worded" message states that "Energy efficiency, renewable energies, and an improved grid deserve priority ..." (my emphasis). When you remove your heavy handed emphasis it is clear that as much generation of electricity that can be done by renewables should be done by renewables. However, he clearly thinks that nuclear is better than coal and that we should not put all our eggs in one basket. And let me emphasise again, and for the third time, I think Hansen's advise is good. All of it, or at least all of it that letter, except for the discussion of the Carbon Tax where I am indifferent between broad means of pricing carbon (but not about implementation). My preferred policy is: 1) Place a price on carbon that increases incrementally on an annual basis (whether by tax or emissions trading I do not care); 2) Remove broad prohibitions on nuclear power except for occupational health and safety, and security regulations; 3) Implement regulations guaranteeing that waste disposal does not place any additional risk on later generations; and 4) Let the market sort it out. Apparently that is too anti-nuclear a position for you. Anyway, this will be my last post responding to you. You have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to enter into rational debate, to the extent that you have several times completely ignored my clear statements and tried to set me up as as strawman. You have also repeatedly repudiated the burden of justifying your claims when challenged. I get enough irrationalism on this site from the deniers. I don't need another source as well. -
BBD at 01:50 AM on 4 July 2011A Detailed Look at Renewable Baseload Energy
dana1981 Careless writing; apologies. J&D do indeed claim that renewables can replace nuclear as well as fossil fuels. And their treatment of nuclear is egregious. Not something I'd focus on, if I were you ;-) But to your point: what difference does it really make? All high-renewables energy scenarios claim the same thing. All fail to make a convincing case. Interestingly, I wonder why the main conclusion of the SRREN report - ca 30% renewables by 2050 - is so far at odds with J&D? Had meant to ask earlier but it slipped my mind.
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