Arguments
Recent Comments
Prev 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Next
Comments 1151 to 1200:
-
Rob Honeycutt at 11:41 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... "they certainly formed conclusions and they applied them."
Not to belabor an irrelevant point, but both took concepts and work from others (both paid for the rights) and leveraged them for their respective companies. I believe that would be business management, not applied science. The engineers they hired to further develop the software were doing a form of applied science.
Oh, and it was Xerox Parc who developed the first GUI, not 3M (Minnesota, Mining and Manufacturing).
-
Rob Honeycutt at 11:27 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... When you say, "But there is no profit motive in mine, only preservation of my standard of living..." you're clearly not understanding that is inherently an economic motivation. Preservation of "your" way of life is a financial motive.
Al Gore, on the other hand, has primarily made his money being a long serving boardmember for Apple, being a major partner in a large VC firm, and through the sale of a major media company he started. As far as I'm aware, Gore's motivations on climate change are merely to prevent extensive damage to the global environmental systems that support life on this planet.
But, any discussion of motivations and/or Al Gore have absolutely nothing to do with the veracity of any of Clauser's statements on climate science.
Please, let us know when you would like to actually discuss Clauser's statements.
-
One Planet Only Forever at 10:01 AM on 27 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
wilddouglascounty,
There is an additional item of improved understanding regarding leadership to be looked into.
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #43 2023 highlights the following new item:
"Misinformation and the epistemic integrity of democracy"
This new item improves understanding of the dangers of, what can go wrong with, 'popularity and profitability based competition for leadership'.
Freedom for everyone to believe and do as they please does not develop sustainable improvements.
-
Eclectic at 09:19 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA, you are skirting around the issue ~ of whether John Clauser is "yer average emeritus fruitcake" or whether he has achieved a brilliant Galileo-like stroke of genius . . . showing that all the prior scientific experts have been grossly wrong. While I do enjoy reading your discursive philosophical/lawyerly rhetoric, nevertheless you are failing to discuss the matter logically.
Please concentrate on whether Clauser is right or wrong about climate matters. (And note that the planetary history indicates that he is essentially wrong in his suppositions about clouds.) Do not dwell on whether Gore and/or Gates and/or China are offending your political identity issues or your personal economic-theory sensibiities.
Waffling discursions are quite easy ~ for instance , you will be aware of Kuebler-Ross's famous Five Stages of Grief. TWFA, you seem, climatically, to be showing the first two grief stages : Denial and Anger.
Have you reached the Bargaining stage (in hoping that that Clauser is right, despite a mountain of evidence that he is wrong) . . . or even the Depression stage? (Depression can indeed co-exist with the other stages of Anger etcetera.)
Are you fearful that the Acceptance stage threatens to change your inner character of personal identity? Personal change can be difficult for the ego to face up to ~ in the shorter run it's easier to keep in Denial.
See ~ rhetorical waffle is easy-peasy. And entertaining when it has an admixture of truth !
-
TWFA at 07:45 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
How is it not?
Applied science is the use of the scientific method and knowledge obtained via conclusions from the method to attain practical goals.
Let's not get into the weeds over definitions, let's try to convey meaning, and to head off the next point of argument, they didn't invent them, Gates had a contract with IBM for the PC, Jobs saw a GUI at 3M, but they certainly formed conclusions and they applied them.
Now we have Al Gore and others who want to apply your conclusions upon the rest of us, like Gates and Jobs he has and others have profited immensly and have a vested interest in their experiment in climate control, but unlike Gates and Jobs if these folks have their way I will have no choice but participation in their experiment, just as if I had my way, wait for more data, they would be participating in mine.
But there is no profit motive in mine, only preservation of my standard of living and those of my descedents until such time as the real world data and not just the modeled projections show it is clearly being being affected by our behavior and beyond the control of nature or chance... at which point you would need to do something about China, currently participating in both experiments at once via dirty manufacturing of green products at a profit.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 07:40 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... Your previous post have been long and winding passages, so I'm trying to focus on your first claims. I would suggest here that your examples are both wrong and not applicable to the discussion of Clauser's claims.
Neither Gates nor Jobs invented what you're attributing to them. Neither of these advancements in computer applications were counter to any previous foundational sciences from which they were assembled.
This is wholly different from Clauser, who is essentially dismissing well established science without the benefit of having done any research in the field.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 06:55 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... Just so you know, those do not fit the definition of "applied sciences." As well, neither of the advances in computer applications are attributable to Gates or Jobs.
-
One Planet Only Forever at 06:54 AM on 27 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
wilddouglascounty @4,
Reflecting on my response @4, I have some suggestions along the line of your request for "...a list of educational resources, incentives, and campaigns that put these recommendations front and center."
The first recommendation relates to your questions about 'leadership' (including public school board leadership). Learn about the candidates for leadership you can vote for and:
- do whatever you are able to do to support the candidates that most diligently promote and pursue learning to be less harmful and more helpful to Others (they will likely be well aligned with the pursuit of the 80 recommendations).
- do whatever you are able to do to oppose the Other candidates. This would include being part of counter-protests when the type of harmful self-interested people the Other type of candidate try to get votes of support from publicly display their damaging (to Others) and unsustainable misunderstandings.
Some other things you could look into:
- "The Story of Stuff". This organization is focused on reducing consumption and reducing the harm done by the remaining consumption.
- "Project Drawdown" . This group is related to 360.org which is another group to look into.
-
TWFA at 06:43 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
In the case of Gates, perceiving that a standard operating system as a hardware interface platform for multiple applications was one of the two keys to widespread adoption and utility of the technology, and with Jobs the GUI interface being the other, and he was just beginning. Prior to those two it was just "Big IT" with a monopoly market in main frame computers and application development, industrial process control and arcade games.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 05:42 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... Okay, so... What were the advancements in "applied sciences" made by Jobs and Gates?
-
TWFA at 04:34 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
I suppose you are referring to advancements in "pure" science as opposed to "applied" science, or perhaps even need to explain to me just what your concept of "science" is. Gates and Jobs made advances in applied science, their accomplishments and the consequences obvious and without which all the prior advances in computer science would have remained in the lab the same way communications advances were locked up in Bell Laboratories until TPC (The Phone Company in "The President's Analyst) was broken up.
Inconveniently for the masterminds, people actually have to live in a world with a combination of nature and applied science, unlike lab rats they have the ability to resist those who wish to experiment with their lives and livelihoods.
So when you take theories in pure climate science and then try to apply it to, or at great expense or sacrifice impose it upon folks accustomed to individual liberty there are consequences, one of them being that, like a good doctor, you need to do a better job of explaining your diagnosis, prognosis and recommended treatment to your patients than simply proclaiming that all of you doctors know more about this than anybody else and you are all in agreement that the rest of us need psychotherapy or brain surgery.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 04:02 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
TWFA... Can you explain the scientific advancements made by Jobs and Gates that went contrary to the previous century of scientific research?
-
TWFA at 02:47 AM on 27 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
I seem to recall that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs did not have any peer reviewed papers on computer science when as teenagers they charted the future of computing and communications and folks invested millions into their unproved, non peer reviewed theories.
I think it is healthy to get outside observation and critique from folks with good minds that may not be "set". One does not have to be a specialist or have studied the field all his life to ask why if none of the current models can accurately reproduce what has happened over the last century why should we have faith in their predictions for the next?
And "faith" is what it is all about, because nobody can "prove" the future while in the present, but we can hopefully understand the present with results from the past... if we choose to pay attention to them, and that applies to far more than climate science.
When folks accuse others of being "deniers" it means they themselves must be "believers", neither can prove their case with facts, neither can prove something will or will not happen in the future until the future arrives, meaning until then we are talking about religion and not science. "Show me a video of God and I will believe" vs "How could all of this come to be without Him?" If 99% of alleged scientists agree on something either it is no longer science or they are not scientists, it is either religion or they are evangelists.
As a non-peer reviewed entrepreneur, renaissance man and pilot flying ABOVE clouds I have always marveled at the weather, the incredible energy conversion and transmission capacity of phase change and latent heat, for decades before Clauser came along I have been screaming about cloud reflectivity because I have seen it first hand... all that light beneath me is going back to space. 70% of the Earth's surface is water, from which clouds will form, temperature goes up, more clouds form, more reflection, less insolation.
It's not rocket science, or even computer science, put a pot of water on the stove, no matter how high the heat the water temperature never gets above boiling. If what Al Gore said at Davos this year were true, that the oceans are boiling, presumably not just where magma is erupting, it would have defied the laws of physics and thermodynamics, it would be impossible to capture and retain such heat with the 100% cloud cover we certainly would have.
-
pattimer at 19:42 PM on 26 October 2023What’s the deal with carbon capture and storage?
I think an important point to make about CCS is that if in the future we successfully make use of CCS there will be benefits but it will not reverse the effects of past and present CO2 emissions. It will not replace lost glaciers, bring sea levels back down, etc. This is for the simple reason that when tipping points are crossed we creat a new Earth that will be around for millennia.
-
chuck22 at 13:24 PM on 26 October 2023CO2 effect is saturated
Thanks, doesnt venus provide some evidence of what levels of CO2 would be needed to saturate?
-
One Planet Only Forever at 08:57 AM on 26 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
Wilddouglascounty @4,
Someone may be able to "... highlight a list of educational resources, incentives, and campaigns that put these recommendations front and center ..."
But, I will start my response with a minor, but important, clarification of your opening comment (edits in bold) “... and then some news media is beginning to focus on how devious the fossil fuel investors are in using misinformation, disinformation, and obfuscation along the lines of the tobacco mercenaries while some media players, especially the ‘social type’, continue to be part of the misinformation and disinformation efforts.”
As for the questions asked ... the answers involve the need for increased critical thinking in pursuit of increased awareness and improved understanding of how to be less harmful and more helpful to others and seeking understanding of the bias of any information source (note that SkS is an excellent resource for that).
Having a bias towards helpful well-reasoned understanding of ‘all of the relevant evidence’ will produce results that differ from other sources. Such presentations can still be ‘claimed to be biased’. But ‘evidence of bias’ does not make a source ‘unreliable and unhelpful’. It is undeniably more damaging to be biased against more fully informing how to be less harmful and more helpful to others. Examples of that are the ways that Fox News and WUWT have a history of being ‘more biased to be misleading’ than the diversity of sources pointed to by SkS (which also all have a bias).
The efforts you are asking for already exist. And they have existed for decades. Note that the report and its 80 recommendations are substantially based on the following sources of improved awareness and understanding: The UN Development Programme, the Sustainable Development Goals, and the IPCC Reports. Many political groups, other leadership contenders (business and political), and advocacy groups are aligned with the pursuit of that type of learning and participated in developing the improved understanding.
The problem is not a lack of effort to increase awareness and improve understanding of how to be less harmful and more helpful. The problem is the success of efforts by people who have interests that are contrary to that type of learning.
In addition to the many helpful actions of the SkS team, a broad spectrum of books help understand why learning to be less harmful and more helpful is not more popular. I am especially biased towards (fond of - like) “The 9.9 Percent” by Matthew Stewart. "The 9.9 Percent" is an evidence-based book (loads of references) that does of good job of explaining how the most powerful 0.1% win by getting unjustified support from the rest of the top 10% (the 9.9% who also want to maintain unjustified perceptions of status relative to Others). It includes understanding that the actions of the undeserving top 10% are excused by a portion of the remaining 90% because of divisive misunderstanding appealing to ‘personal biases’ that motivates them to try to be 'perceived to be higher-status' like the unjustified top 10%.
In a nut-shell the required solution involves compromising the ability of the undeserving among the top 0.1 Percent (in wealth and power) to get support from, or be excused by, the top 10% or any of the 90%. Note: 0.1% of the current global population is 8 million. And 10% is 800 million. So over-coming the power of the most unjustified 10 Percent is a massive challenge.
Things are improving in a sputtering way like: two steps up, three steps back, two more steps up, then another step up, then a step back. Undeniably faster improvement would be better (lots of damage to Others caused by delayed reduction of harm done by the Few). However, the tragically slow improvement, and resulting larger amount of damage done, is not the fault of, or due to, a lack of effort by the people pursuing being less harmful and more helpful to others.
-
Eclectic at 08:24 AM on 26 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
Speaking of delusions ~ about 17-ish years ago, there was video interview with Prof. Lindzen (Emeritus) , where Lindzen asserted that the world could not / would not get warmer, because Divine action protects this planet from such an excursion.
Has Lindzen changed views since then? Or his "reasoning" ?
-
John Mason at 00:13 AM on 26 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
groovimus - Mass-delusion, you say? You need to get out more - and with your eyes open.
-
walschuler at 03:35 AM on 25 October 2023Climate Adam: Escaping the Elements - The truth behind Climate Migration
I think the presentation is quite clear and useful, but near the end becomes overly positive about potential benefits of migration due to climate change. In most cases, even if other factors contribute to the decision to move, the climate factor is likely to involve a traumatic event of some sort, such as fire, flood or loss of arable land.
-
wilddouglascounty at 21:54 PM on 24 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
So what I'm hearing about this report is that the investors in fossil fuels are effectively circling around the 80 recommendations to develop game plans AGAINST making those recommendations come to fruition, and then the media is beginning to focus on how devious the fossil fuel investors are in using misinformation and obfuscation along the lines of the tobacco mercenaries.
But where is the political will emerging that will take these recommendations seriously and move them into accomplishments? Why are we not seeing a groundswell of conversations, commitments and policies being passed that embrace these recommendations? Shouldn't we be asking advocacy, corporate and governmental leadership to be providing, well, leadership?
Please highlight a list of educational resources, incentives, and campaigns that put these recommendations front and center and help our communities disseminate quality information up front instead of just reacting to well funded disinformation programs designed to delay, dilute and deceive!
-
Rob Honeycutt at 11:06 AM on 24 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
groovimus... Did you have some reason why we should entertain Clauser's position on climate change in spite of the fact he's never in his career done research in the field?
-
groovimus at 08:11 AM on 24 October 2023John F. Clauser: the latest climate science-denying physicist
Speaking of talking points: that's quite a rehash of the ole "let's insult these guys and their cognitive functioning, cuz they're only old guys now and we can rub it in". I've seen it happen in all kinds of fields. Thomas Nagle with a lifetime of philosophical materialist belief, writes a book a couple of years before retiring from NYU, the book indicating second thoughts on that ironclad materialistic hegemony in academia. He got roasted over the coals for that and of course the standard "he's an old guy in decline" BS. the exact thing happened to Anthony Flew, retired Brit philosopher with a lifetime of comitted atheism, changed his mind late in life in favor of deism. Same exact tactic, "his mind has declined, and he got someone to ghost write his book." they said.
You guys should be ashamed for hiding behind this argument. You know that working academics are in jeopardy like never before in the West from being cancelled for wrongthink, and you are part of that problem. You can even watch Lintzen's videos and see for yourself his use of precise vernacular and reasoning to explain exactly where he is coming from on this mass delusion gripping the world's intelligentsia.
-
John Hartz at 09:43 AM on 23 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
Just Dean: Thank you for the positive feedback. Posting links to the above articles on the SkS Facebook page and listing the posts in the Weekly Digest series has been a labor of love for me.
-
One Planet Only Forever at 09:31 AM on 23 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
I agree with Just Dean's compliment to the SkS team for highlighting important action that can lead to limiting the damage done by people who want to delay ending of climate change impacts they benefit from.
I would add that the following NPR news item relates to Just Dean's mention of the selective reporting by the Washington Post. It also relates to the challenge of achieving popular support for the required changes of developed ways of enjoying life and profiting from economic activity:
How gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations, by Jeff Brady, Climate, NPR, October 17, 2023.
The NPR includes the following 'rejection of what is required' by the collective of profiteers from natural gas consumption:
"The gas utility industry is ramping up rhetoric and openly talks about fighting to save its business. In 2021, Harbert told NPR that her industry wants to be part of solving the climate problem and has developed a position statement on the issue. "If the goal is to reduce emissions, we're all in," she told NPR. "If the goal is to put us out of business, not so much.""
The profit pursuers are willing to participate in profitably reducing the impacts they profit from. But the required rapid ending of the accumulation of global warming impacts is 'contrary to their profit interests'. The undeniable need to end the natural gas utility operations is anathema to them. And, as the NPR reporting clearly indicates, they have spent many decades developing their ability to scientifically fight against limits on their ability to benefit from being more harmful.
Developed popularity and profitability and the power of misleading marketing to delay corrections of damaging popular and profitable activity is a significant impediment to achieving the required limiting of damage done to the future of humanity.
-
One Planet Only Forever at 03:58 AM on 23 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
I have an important concern about the examples presented in the NPR article “How gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations” I refer to in my comment @9 regarding the way that ‘conservative’ has been used by some scientists regarding evaluations of risk of harm.
As an engineer my learned conservative concern is to severely limit the potential for harmful results. An opposite use of ‘conservative’ appears to be abused as justification for higher risk of harmful outcomes. Tragically, trending to be more harmful, fighting against developing evidence of harm or potential harm, seems to align with what some ‘political interests’ want to claim is conservative – maintaining, excusing and defending the status quo - avoid harming/restricting developed popular or profitable activities that are potentially, or actually, harmful.
Many portions of the NPR article present versions of this twist of political influence on science.
A specific (lengthy) quote is the entire section headed Identifying uncertainty and highlighting it: (I bolded the secific words in the quote, but the rest of the quote contains presentations of thinking that are also contrary to 'conservative meaning limiting harm', especially contrary when limiting harm requires 'change')
Another strategy deployed by the gas industry focused on uncertainties in the emerging body of indoor air research and amplified them. Uncertainty and questions are part of research, but giving them disproportionate emphasis makes the science seem shakier than it is.
The Gas Research Institute, which funded research for the gas industry, hired the firm Arthur D. Little to produce this kind of material. Arthur D. Little had a history of conducting similar work for the tobacco industry. A 1981 paper completed by Arthur D. Little surveyed available research on the health effects of gas stoves but focused on questions the research did not answer and found the epidemiological data was "incomplete and conflicting."
The company says it doesn't have access to records for this project, conducted more than 40 years ago. "We have no reason to believe that the GRI report wasn't conducted with the same high standards of rigor and objectivity with which Arthur D. Little approaches all client engagements," Etienne Brumauld des Houlières, global marketing and communications director, wrote in an email.
The industry also favored reputable scientists who were considered scientifically conservative, for generally wanting to see a larger body of evidence than their peers before reaching conclusions.
Among them is Dr. Jonathan Samet, dean of the Colorado School of Public Health, who has a long history as an epidemiologist and researcher. A 1995 review produced by tobacco company Philip Morris concluded that his reputation "as an authority in pulmonary medicine and epidemiology" was "probably due at least in part to his scientific conservatism."
Samet's 1993 study of infants living in Albuquerque, N.M., homes found no connection between respiratory illness and the presence of a gas stove. It was funded by the Health Effects Institute, which received funding from a wide variety of sources, including the gas industry.
Samet says he never did research for the tobacco industry and that it set "a high water mark for egregious behavior and discrediting science." He does not see that same behavior when it comes to the gas industry and health effects of cooking with gas.
"Over my career, there are people who felt that I waited too long before perhaps saying that X causes Y. But that's because I don't think we want to have false positive determinations," Samet told NPR. Scientists say accomplishing that in epidemiology can be tricky because often there are multiple factors present that could be causing a health problem.
When it comes to assessing science that will inform new policies, Samet says it's rare that one study is enough to reach a conclusion. "I've been involved in enough of the development of authoritative reports in different contexts to take the view that the right way to understand what the science shows is to put it all together," Samet says. "And sometimes, unfortunately, the answer is that we don't have enough. So if that's conservative, that's fine."
As evidence around the health effects of gas stove use has accumulated, Samet's views are changing. "If I had a child who might be particularly susceptible because of asthma, for example, then I would probably think carefully about what I could do to make my home safer and a gas stove would be on that checklist," Samet says.
-
Just Dean at 22:04 PM on 22 October 20232023 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #42
John,
Thanks. This is exactly the kind of exposure/coverage I was hoping to see here.
I have been disappointed with lack of coverage by the media. It is understandable given recent world events and maybe it is early days. Instead of choosing to cover the overall impact of the release on policy, even the Washington Post chose to zero on a single controversial recommendation, the the banning of natural gas lines in areas that haven't been served.
An article by Sarah Isgur writing for Politico last year resonated with me. Here is a quote from that article,
"Climate change can’t be fixed in four-year increments. To effectively stem carbon emissions, the country needs a long-term plan that can be followed for 25, 50, even 100 years — something that can only be put in place by the U.S. Congress."
I think you could argure that this plan would be a good plan to follow and a good plan today beats a perfect plan tomorrow.
-
BaerbelW at 18:04 PM on 22 October 2023They changed the name from 'global warming' to 'climate change'
Please note: a new basic version of this rebuttal was published on October 22, 2023 which includes an "at a glance“ section at the top. To learn more about these updates and how you can help with evaluating their effectiveness, please check out the accompanying blog post @ https://sks.to/at-a-glance
-
One Planet Only Forever at 03:06 AM on 22 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
Fred Torssander,
In addition to the helpful responses by MA Rogers and nigelj, I offer another perspective regarding the question you ask @3:
How can we know that government action, external governing of the socioeconomic-political marketplace rather than simply allowing marketplace game players the freedom to believe and do whatever they want, has resulted in reduced harm?
This can be particularly challenging if pursuers of benefit from harmful actions deliberately develop and disseminate disinformation and misinformation.
How much less harmful are things today, or will things be in the future, due to policy actions? A more important question not asked by people asking that question is: How much more harmful are things due to a lack of development and implementation of effective harm reduction actions – especially the lack of effective limitations on the ‘freedom to benefit from developing and disseminating disinformation and misinformation’?”
A good example of this problem is NPR’s recent, well researched and presented (and long and detailed), reporting (in parallel with efforts by the regarding the efforts to cast doubt on the science regarding harm done by gas stoves “How gas utilities used tobacco tactics to avoid gas stove regulations”.
Essentially, the understanding is that "...industry-backed reports confused consumers and muddied the science that regulators relied on about the potential dangers of cooking with gas, according to an investigation by NPR and documents uncovered in a new report from the Climate Investigations Center (CIC), a research and watchdog group." And that can happen regarding climate change impact reduction efforts.
The section of the NPR reporting “How Gas Utilities followed the tobacco strategy” presents ways that science can be harmfully biased by the pursuit of money (the American Gas Association – AGA – referred to its pursuit of popular support for gas use in homes as “Operation Attack”). As mentioned in the article “the AGA was hiring researchers who previously accepted research funding from tobacco companies”.
A particularly enlightening part of the NPR article is
“Ralph Mitchell of Battelle Laboratories conducted work for the tobacco industry and had sought funding for research from Philip Morris in 1964 and the Cigar Research Council in 1972. Mitchell and colleagues at Battelle and the Ohio State University reexamined earlier studies that concluded there were health problems linked to use of gas stoves. Using an alternative, and in some cases controversial, analysis technique, Mitchell's team found "no significant difference in reported respiratory illness between the members of households cooking with gas and those cooking with electricity."
None of the authors of the 1974 Battelle paper are alive today to answer questions about their work.
"The research in question occurred nearly 50 years ago, and it would be inappropriate to speculate on the researchers' methods or conclusions," said Benjamin Johnson, spokesman for Ohio State, in an email to NPR. A Battelle spokesman offered a similar statement and wrote that the organization "conducts research that conforms to the strictest standards of integrity."”
It is challenging to ‘conclusively prove the harm reduction of a policy action’. The only ‘certain way to eliminate doubt about the benefits of harm reduction actions’ is to have a parallel planet where the only difference is the action in question with monitoring for a long enough period of time to be highly confident of the ‘measurable differences’. Without that ‘impossible proof’ any suggested harm reduction action is open to the ‘raising of doubt about its merits’. Of course, there is also an inability to be certain about the benefits of actions that are potentially harmful ... but the potential perception of personal benefit can tragically over-power the ability to learn to be less harmful and more helpful.
An obvious problem is the ways that disinformation and misinformation efforts can unjustifiably raise questions about the effectiveness of ‘likely very effective harm reduction actions’, especially when ‘perceived benefits’ have to be given up to reduce the damage being done, or when being less harmful requires more effort or is more expensive.
-
nigelj at 10:08 AM on 21 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
Fred Torssander @5
"It's great - in a way - to have my suspicions and my amateurish comparisions between reported emissions of GHG and measured atmospheric CO2 confirmed by Washington Post no less!"
Yes although I think we all had those suspicions. However IMO while the under measurement of emissions is very concerning, for our purposes it isn't the big issue, because its been reasonably constant going well back. As I stated the big issue is the trend in emissions whether increasing or declining over time, and that trend is likely to be roughly accurate and the growth in emissions looks like it is nearing a plateau from data I've seen.
"Variations in atmospheric CO2, when and if such changes appear, will be hard or even impossible to claim this as an effect of human political (democratic?!) activity. "
Not really. Fistly atmopsheric CO2 levels have been increasing reasonably steadily except that the trend includes a lot of short term wiggles up and down, but those wiggles only last a year or two. They are a result of such things as the yearly seasonal growth cycle, el nino, and the occasional volcanic activity. But these all have very short term effects and known causes.
Once we see something like a change in this atmospheric CO2 trend that lasts at least ten years we could be pretty confident its because of reducing human emissions. It's very difficult to see what else it could be, because no natural cause of emissions is likely to cause a ten year effect on the trend. And if it did it would have to be massive, unprecedented volcanic / geothermal activity of some sort and we would certainly notice that.
"Even in the case that the figures and charts showing temperature confirmed the good news, they would have a margin of error +23%, -0%(!) depending on what the reporting parties (states/nations) pleases."
Temperatures will not be 100% accurately measured, but I doubt temperatures would be that innacurate as 23% out. Where did you get the number?
However I would say atmospheric CO2 levels would be a bit more accurate than temperatures (or emissions trends) and would be the most compelling proof we have made a difference provided we see a decent 5 - 10 year difference in the trend. CO2 levels are quite accurately measured.
"And worse. The emissions of type iii in my first comment, will be compleatly hidden!"
You mentioned el nino and volcanoes. But el nino is not hidden. It is a well known cycle and we know approximately what effect it has on CO2 emissions and its a very short term effect of a couple of years. El nino does not explain long term (greater than five years) trends in CO2 levels.
And volcanic activity is not hidden. Scientists monitor this activity. Unless there is a massive krakatoa sized eruption it is not a significant generator of CO2. Its more significant related to aerosols.
"Lastly: More power produced by "significant solar and wind power" does not neccesarily result in less power produced by burning fossil fuels.Remember Jevons Paradox!"
Jevons paradox says (roughly) that making energy use more efficient does not decrease total energy use, and this has proven to be true, unless you actively fight against the paradox. Germany has had some moderate success making energy use more efficient and also decreasing total energy use, but its required some tight government lead incentives and programmes. And Germany is very disciplined as a people, so other countries might struggle to emulate their modest success.
Regarding the wind and solar power issue, I'm not sure its strictly a Jevons paradox issue because we are not trying to achieve more efficent energy use "per se". We are substituting renewables for fossil fuels. So far those efforts have only stopped the growth in fossil fuels, but as wind and solar power uptake improves in scale, fossil fuel use will fall in absolute terms and has already done in some places. For example, Paraguay, Iceland, Sweden, and Uruguay and France get something like 90% of their electricity from low carbon sources.
-
Fred Torssander at 08:00 AM on 21 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
nigelj @5
It's great - in a way - to have my suspicions and my amateurish comparisions between reported emissions of GHG and measured atmospheric CO2 confirmed by Washington Post no less! But the problem is still there. Variations in atmospheric CO2, when and if such changes appear, will be hard or even impossible to claim this as an effect of human political (democratic?!) activity. So how can we build an informed opinion on claims that "governments have made substantial progress in curbing their climate pollution" and even that "global temperatures are on a less dangerous path than they were a decade ago" which can't be seen, at least I can't see it in the temperature data? Or in the CO2 data.
Even in the case that the figures and charts showing temperature confirmed the good news, they would have a margin of error +23%, -0%(!) depending on what the reporting parties (states/nations) pleases.
And worse. The emissions of type iii in my first comment, will be compleatly hidden!
Lastly: More power produced by "significant solar and wind power" does not neccesarily result in less power produced by burning fossil fuels.Remember Jevons Paradox!Yours
Fred Torssander -
nigelj at 06:08 AM on 21 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
Fred Torssander @5
"The still accelerating growth of the CO2 part of the atmosphere can have several types explainations - I think. i) First of all (Occhams razor) itt might be that the growth is actually accelerating, and the measurements of emissions of GHG are wrong or falsified. There is still very big money being invested in further expanded use of fossil fuels. "
There is good evidence measurements of humanities total yearly CO2 emissions under report emissions by as much as 23% (much of this is agricultural related emissions) as below:
www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2021/greenhouse-gas-emissions-pledges-data/
But this has probably been a roughly consistent under reporting over time. We are interested in rates of change and trends. I think its likely that emissions growth is starting to level off. Coal use has started to level off, and the world is definitely building significant solar and wind power and this sort of thing can be independently verified.
-
Fred Torssander at 21:22 PM on 20 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
MA Roger @4;
Thanks for your answer.a) My use of the word fraction was not meant to create misunderstanding. I ought to have used part or ppm instead. Sorry.
1.) The still accelerating growth of the CO2 part of the atmosphere can have several types explainations - I think. i) First of all (Occhams razor) itt might be that the growth is actually accelerating, and the measurements of emissions of GHG are wrong or falsified. There is still very big money being invested in further expanded use of fossil fuels. ii) Then comes non-antropogenic generation, which varies with the activity of volcanoes and the weather, like El Niño that you mention. iii) Then there is the different effects of growing CO2 part of the atmosphere and of rising temperature. Like for example melting ice-lids on gas kettles. Some containing methane.
There seems to be an adequate amount of scientific work on the non-antropogenic and maby also on the iii) category. But how much is done on the question of mistaken or falsified measurements of the emissions?
The temperature anomaly could be verified by scientific use of a common houshold thermometer. At least in populated areas.
Maby that makes temperature the only useful and reliable measure? In that case mabe good news using other measures should comment on the discrepancies between those and the rising of the temperature?[Berkeley Earth story link]
Yours
Fred TorssanderModerator Response:[BL] Link activated.
The web software here does not automatically create links. You can do this when posting a comment by selecting the "insert" tab, selecting the text you want to use for the link, and clicking on the icon that looks like a chain link. Add the URL in the dialog box. -
MA Rodger at 18:28 PM on 20 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
Fred Torssander @3,
That's not so easy to fathom.
You presumably** ask about atmospheric CO2 levels.
They should theoretically begin to stop increasing at an accelerating rate when we stop pumping CO2 into the air at increasing rates. So far, our emissions are leveling off but not yet levelled off.
And if we could actually begin to drop the rate of emissions (and we need to do this quickly), the rate of increase in atmospheric CO2 levels would begin to slow and helpfully they would level off roughly when we have halved emissions***.
So a long way to go, theoretically.As for when we should see the good news, the increase in annual CO2 levels is impacted by El Niño (which changes many rainfall patterns across the globe and wobbles annual CO2 increases by some +/-0.5ppm). These resulting wobbles seen in the CO2 increase make it difficult to be precise as to the actual state-of-play. So we can see that the decadal increases**** since 1960 have been accelerating strongly (+0.9ppm/y, +1.2ppm/y, +1.6ppm/y, +1.5ppm/y, +1.9ppm/y, +2.4ppm/y) but being more precise is difficult. While the beginning of the present decade 2020-22 does show the lowest 3-year average increase (+2.2ppm/y) since 2012-14 and Covid would have not made a big change to that, the strong La Niña impacting 2020-22 will have made a big difference.
(** The word "fraction" is not so useful here as its usual use is in the 'Airborne Fraction' which is the ratio of [increase-in-atmospheric-burden] to [the-emissions]. It takes 2.16Gt(C) to raise atmspheric CO2 by 1ppm. So our emissions of ~10ppm would have seen atmospheric levels rise by +4.6ppm if Af=100% & all the emissions remained in the atmosphere.)
(*** The 'Airborne Fraction' is running at about 50% but this is not all because of a single year's emissions. Only a few percent would be due to the immediate annual emissions. The 50% is the sum of the decreasing 'few percents' from years running back many decades.)
(**** The 'trend' numbers given by NOAA on their 'trend'page are a bit odd as they compare only the months at the start/end of the years, not the whole 12 months which I use in this comment. The NOAA method actually adds a bit more wobbliness to their numbers.) -
Doug Bostrom at 05:30 AM on 20 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
Thank you for the steer, Dean! The NAS report is of exactly the type we like to include.
The "purpose and methods" boilerplate could use some updating. Especially it doesn't mention at all our "government/NGO" section, added a couple of years ago. Marc Kodack handles that part of the weekly compilation and it's entirely manual. With "final assembly" happening on Wednesdays, a Tuesday release date ends up as a bit of a squeaker as to whether an item will get in the same week's review.
As well, it's possible to have a clean miss; a glance at Marc's bio shows how well suited he is for this work, but it's a big world emitting a constant Niagara of material for consideration. It's undoubtedly the case that more eyes would help, if they can be harnessed properly. We have the UI parts in place to widen our net by soliciting community input but that will need process methods and additional labor to support without descending into chaos. Fingers crossed, we may arrive there.
In the meantime, we're delighted to accept suggestions here and in the case of the NAS report we'll make sure it's in next week's edition even if it doesn't surface directly for Marc.
(The academic portion has evolved as eyeball review/select/categorize from a torrent of jounal RSS feeds, typically about 700 items per week, with automated metadata collection and formatting.)
-
Bob Loblaw at 03:39 AM on 20 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
JUst Dean:
Understood. Keep i mind that if you want to post a link to something of interest, it helps to provide a summary and some indication of why you think it is relevant.
-
Just Dean at 02:48 AM on 20 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
Bob,
Thanks. I understand. I'm not being critical, I'm just trying to help. It seems like an important report that has gotten very little attention in the media or among climate change sites/blogs.
I try to follow experts in energy systems transitions, e.g. Dr. John Bistline, Net-Zero America at Princeton, and was glad to see that they are referenced heavily in the 653 page report.
-
Bob Loblaw at 02:38 AM on 20 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
Just Dean:
A lot of the process is automated, so it all depends on where the information is available. Skeptical Science is a volunteer organization.
It also may take time for new reports to make their way into the automatic feeds that are scanned.
-
Just Dean at 02:21 AM on 20 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
Bob:
What about this section, "Articles/Reports from Agencies and Non-Governmental Organizations Addressing Aspects of Climate Change?"
It seems to me it fits there.
-
Fred Torssander at 00:50 AM on 20 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
When is the good news expected to be visible as some change in the still accelerating CO2 fraction in the atmosphere? https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
-
Bob Loblaw at 23:36 PM on 19 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
Just Dean:
The methodology in assembling the New Research report is discussed near the bottom of the post. I don't think it typcailly covers general government or organization publications. There is also a link to the page that describes which journals are included. That page includes the following text:
Journals we cover
Skeptical Science New Research is driven primarily by RSS feeds from the journals listed below.
New journals appear frequently and as well it's not always obvious where articles related to climate change may be found. If you notice an omission you believe may be significant, please let us know via our contact link.
-
Just Dean at 21:42 PM on 19 October 2023Skeptical Science New Research for Week #42 2023
I didn't see a shout out to the National Academies Consensus Study Report released on Tuesday - Acclerating Decarbonization in the United States .
-
Gordon21829 at 07:47 AM on 19 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
sailrick, you might be interested in this Video
Moderator Response:[BL] You are not new here, and have no excuse for ignoring the Comments Policy. Note that it says:
No link or picture only. Any link or picture should be accompanied by text summarizing both the content of the link or picture, and showing how it is relevant to the topic of discussion. Failure to do both of these things will result in the comment being considered off topic.
-
sailrick at 03:50 AM on 19 October 2023New report has terrific news for the climate
According to this article, the most common lithium ion batteries now will be replaced by lithium iron phosphate batteries (LFP) in the near future. Major car manufacturers are making the switch already. So, no cobalt, manganese or nickel, making them cheaper, while having less environmenal impact, and almost impossible to catch fire.
www.pv-magazine.comModerator Response:[RH] Activated link
-
Rob Honeycutt at 23:35 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
"...next time I will we more careful and not comment in privileged blogs."
Or, perhaps, just read the commenting policies beforehand and play by the house rules. It's not that difficult.
Moderator Response:[BL] As a side note to general viewers, the only comments from Rabelt that are no longer visible are content-free complaints about moderation. Other recent comments that violated the Comments Policy had "warning snips" applied, which strikes them through but leaves them visible to all readers (including casual readers that have not registered or logged on). This is the usual process, in the hope that the offending participant will step back, modify their behaviour, and follow the rules.
Rabelt rapidly devolved into full-blown violations of the Comments Policy. Continuing on this path will lead to his posting privileges being rescinded.
-
Rabelt at 23:34 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
Its been a pleasure partaking in the mainstream debate and seen the consequences, have a nice day and I hope you would be more interested in a free impartial discussion next time Mister Bob
[Moderation complaints deleted]
Moderator Response:[BL] Clearly unable to follow simple instructions.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 23:32 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
My suggestion, Rabelt, is that you find a constructive way to move the conversation forward. And I think that's going to require that you spend some time better understanding the science surrounding carbon isotopes. Here's a good place to start.
-
Rabelt at 23:31 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
I see no problem with having 1 of the participants being also a moderator capable of modifying and deleting comments, next time I will we more careful and not comment in privileged blogs
[more moderation complaints deleted]
Moderator Response:[BL] Clearly you have no interest in reading or understanding the Comments Policy.
-
Rob Honeycutt at 23:30 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
Rabelt... You really should go read the comments policy. Moderation complaints are also against the rules here.
You've been asked for supporting materials to better explain your arguments here and, thus far, all I've seen is a belligerent inability to comprehend what's being explained to you followed by repeating what you'd previously stated. That doesn't advance the discussion.
-
Rabelt at 23:23 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
MA Rodger,
At least for the pre-satellite period
-
Rabelt at 23:22 PM on 18 October 2023From the eMail Bag: Carbon Isotopes, Part 2: The Delta Notation
MA Rodger,
[snip]
Fearing the abuse of power some people here want to exert and the complete arbitrarity of censorship I will have to keep it short and pray that Mister Bob is not angry enough at me.
LUC is a measure that requieres immense amounts of precise knowledge about human activity and the specific happenings in the carbon cycle during that year, something we completely lack in both departments, so I would not give it much accuracy
Moderator Response:[BL] More moderation complaints deleted.
Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
Moderating this site is a tiresome chore, particularly when commentators repeatedly submit offensive or off-topic posts. We really appreciate people's cooperation in abiding by the Comments Policy, which is largely responsible for the quality of this site.
Finally, please understand that moderation policies are not open for discussion. If you find yourself incapable of abiding by these common set of rules that everyone else observes, then a change of venues is in the offing.Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.
