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Eclectic at 10:27 AM on 21 August 2025Welcome to Skeptical Science
Curtis Bennett @125 :-
Would you please summarize the point you are wishing to make.
Scientists being blind to temperature . . . sounds a tad hyperbolical. But what is actual point you were thinking of ?
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Curtis Bennett at 05:28 AM on 21 August 2025Welcome to Skeptical Science
What does the entire world's academia have in common when it comes to discussing global warming causing climate change? They are all blind to temperature. Temperature is a critical consideration for all sciences.
I have an extensive science background. I am an Interprovincial Red Seal Journeyman Electrician. I am a Building Constuction Engineering Technologist which includes construction from contracts to completion.
I am a Thermal Radiation Consultant with a 45 year background consulting for industries across the board. Thermal Radiation is the natural frequencies and vibrations of all matter which is everything in existence. As a temperature specialist, temperature for me begins at -273 Deg C or -495 Deg F. Buildings are designed with Regional Climatic Data in Building Codes.
Specific to cause of man made global warming, I led a team and we used advanced infrared applications to image buildings in 7 provinces in Canada and 21 states in the United States. When tested by Hydrologists for accuracy we were within 1/10 of a deg. C imaging groundwater from the air. It was alarming when imaging building exteriors that buildings were over 90 deg. C(100 is boiling) White washed buildings in europe were atmospheric temperature as they reflected solar radiation. Here is a big file of imaging buildings inside and out. It was alarming to see heat transfer through framing and AC used treating the symptoms Lumber is not considered to be a good conductor. Here is a big file and all very accurate science completed by credentialed professionals.
https://docs.bcuc.com/documents/proceedings/2012/doc_32604_c19-6_wkcc-submission-rdck-nelson-creston_suspension.pdfModerator Response:[BL} It has been over a week since your iriginal post, with no further information from you. As a result, it seems like you really are just trying to advertise, so your link has been snipped.
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Evan at 20:17 PM on 20 August 2025Getting climate risk wrong
Ken, I respect your knowledge and experience in this field, and so it carries a lot of weight when you write an article like this. But it concerns me when I read a statement like the following,
"...the climate will continue to change until anthropogenic emissions get to (net) zero."
This statement implies we will get to net-0, and that the climate will stop changing once we get there. I'm convinced of neither of those arguments. I take it as a matter of course that everyone alive on the planet today is in deep trouble because of climate change and that the prudent course of action is to prepare as much and as fast as possible. To focus on how bad it will get may be counterproductive and useless, but preparing for increasingly severe climatic effects seems prudent, such as Paris is apparently doing (read here).
I believe that as a society we are still getting climate risk wrong, mostly because we just don't want to believe (1) that it is happening, (2) that it really is caused by us, and (3) that it will continue to get worse.
I am concerned that the rising chorus of moderate projections will lull people into a sense of complacency. Whether climate really continues to get worse or not, I think that our moderate response to a serious situation guarantees that we will never be properly prepared, and that we will not effectively slow its progression.
But that is my opinion, and I hope for everyone's sake that I am wrong.
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Riduna at 11:39 AM on 19 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
I thought fire in Lithium-ion batteries was was caused by short-circuit resulting from growth of dendrites - so the older a battery the more likely the risk of fire. This risk had been significantly reduced by including sensors in each battery cell which detects risk of short-circuit, isolates the cell and warns of the defect. The ‘fire’ problem has been significantly reduced - except in older batteries manufactured before these sensors were introduced.
Laboratory work on solid state Lithium-ion Batteries shows that replacement of the liquid buffer between cathode and anode with a solid one eliminates the risk of fire. It also shows that Solid State Lithium -ion batteries also have the following advantages over batteries presently in use:- Risk of fire removed,
- 10 -15 minute re-charge time,
- Twice the density, holding a lager charge,
- Much reduced weight,
- Operation over wider temperature range,
- Longer battery life,
- Increased utility.
These make commercial development of solid state batteries an all important goal but one which is fraught with manufacturing com plexities which have yet to be overcome and which could increase battery price.
Could AI have a role to play on overcoming design and manufacturing problems?
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michael sweet at 22:58 PM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
I agree with Phillipe that people want to think about the gasoline in their cars before a possible fire in an industrial setup out of town. What about the 50,000 liter tankers they drive besi on the road? These tankers get in accidents every day and catch on fire at a higher rate than a battery bank.
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Eclectic at 08:09 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Nigelj @12 :
An anecdote ~ just this week, my neighbours bought a new EV. It's fine looking car, sleek and stylish, with an 80 KWh battery of the NMC type. Their first EV. I gather that they had given scant consideration to NMC fire risk compared to the safer LFP type of battery.
My impression is that the fire risk is of small thought to much of the EV-buying public. As to the EV-avoiding purchaser ~ I can only go on impressions, rather than on good survey data, about their criteria & motivations. There are so many other plusses & minuses influencing EV decision taking.
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nigelj at 07:06 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
The issues of EV's lithium batteries catching fire. I wonder if this battery issue explains some of the slowing of EV sales recently. This battery issue has been in our media over the last few years. What gets lost in the fine print well down the commentary is EVs are less likely to catch fire than ICE cars, and that the fires are generally where a battery has been damaged in some way, perhaps a crash. Sometimes people only read the headlines and first couple of paragraphs.
I agree with Eclectics comments on the downsides of referenda. The public just don't know enough about economics to make a sensible judgement on something like Brexit. However I do think referenda have their place for contentious social issues and if changing something like a constitution. These issues are easier to evaluate. Eg things like gay marriage, when people should be able to vote, drug legalisation. Of course you still get misinformation on such issues, the scourge of our internet age.
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Eclectic at 05:10 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Philippe Chantreau @8 :
The forming of perceptions is indeed crucial in democratic governance. An equally important factor is the final process of decision-making.
The ancient Greeks had problems with the way that the citizens gathered in the agora would easily flip-flop in their decision-du-jour, depending on the day of the assembly and the rhetoric of the best speaker that day.
In modern times, the UK Brexit decision was made "poorly". #A few years ago, I heard an excellent speech by a British Lord Someoneorother, to the effect that Brexit would have been avoided if the decision-making had been left to the elected Members of Parliament. His point was that ~ though often imperfect ~ we are rather more likely to get a "good" decision on any topic, when the discussions get slowed down to a gradual pace (through committees, compromises, "horse-trading", and cooling-off periods, and even the receiving of expert advices! ). In other words ~ using Representative Democracy instead of plebiscites.
As Bob Loblaw shows, it's difficult to balance NIMBY + reasonable.
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Bob Loblaw at 04:34 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
A bit of visual evidence to support what I said in the last paragraph of comment 9.
Google Earth images of an area west of here. First image is from 2007. The path of the existing main trunk pipeline can be seen as a slight variation in vegetation colour running from the lower left of the image to the upper right.
Most recent image shows the wide boulevard in the middle of the housing development, along the pipeline route.
Buyer beware.
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Bob Loblaw at 04:17 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
There are parts of rural Ontario that have also voted against wind turbines.
We recently had an EV charging station installed at our house (in Ontario). The Electrical Safety Authority is pretty serious about inspecting such installations (which require a permit), as they have been running into a lot of poor quality installations. The high amperage (ours is 40A) is similar to that of a clothes dryer or kitchen range but it often can run for hours on end. The risk of overheating is higher - but manageable by proper installation.
The fear that Phillippe mentions probably also does not extend to house fires caused by electrical faults - nobody is calling for electricity-free communities to prevent such fires.
Near us there are new suburbs being built that have long linear sections of open land that look a lot like parkland. To most residents, it probably looks like a nice, wide boulevard that is much wider than you would think was needed for that road. Very few are likely aware that it is a major pipeline route. The developers could build houses on either side of the pipeline ROW, but not directly on top of it. I'll bet that if the houses were built first, and then the energy company applied to build the pipeline through the middle of the development, the residents would have voted against that, too.
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Philippe Chantreau at 03:24 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
John Wise says "A 200Mw battery storage project was proposed in my rural Ontario municipality, but was almost unanimously rejected by residents because of fear of fire."
It goes to show that fear is a great lever to manipulate people's perceptions. It also shows that modern ways to disseminate information are the most important mean to control and manipulate said perceptions, and therefore people. The fact that it was "almost unanimously" rejected suggests that virtually nobody applied critical thinking to the question.
If the town had been asked the question about a natural gas pipeline or plant, would there have been a similar consensus about fire risk? If these same town folks were asked about EV fires, would they tend to overestimate the risk compared to ICE car fires? Fire remains a significant safety concern in vehicles carrying over 100 liters of highly flammable liquid but are people worried about it? How is their perception formed?
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Charlie_Brown at 03:01 AM on 18 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
I am intrigued by salt hydrates for thermal energy storage. Energy is stored and released with the reversible thermochemical reaction for heat of hydration. Just add water.
K2CO3 + H2O ↔ K2CO3•1.5H2O + heat
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scaddenp at 07:56 AM on 17 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Aside from re-using LI batteries from EVs, I suspect fire-prone NMC batteries will quickly disappear from stationary storage. LFP batteries are far safer, last longer. Other chemistries are advancing rapidly. With a stationary battery, weight and volume are not such big issues. NaS batteries are already in use and Na-ion is progressing quickly.
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Bob Loblaw at 01:55 AM on 17 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
John Wise does not provide a link to explain exactly what storage project was rejected in his Ontario municipality, but Ontario overall is going ahead with a number of storage projects. The following link discusses an RFP (Request for Proposals) that has resulted in "...contracts with 13 selected proponents, acquiring 2,194.91 MW of new capacity scheduled to come into service between 2026-2028."
The RFP page above does not talk directly about the storage technologies, but if you follow the link labelled "E-LT1 RFP" in the paragraph under the grey box, it leads to the following PDF. In that PDF, several of the selected suppliers refer to battery technology.
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One Planet Only Forever at 02:24 AM on 15 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Regarding the fire concern leading people to oppose utility scale lithium battery storage systems as mentioned by John Wise @3.
Th following is one evidence-based presentation indicating that utility scale lithium battery units are quite safe.
Claims vs Facts: Energy Storage Safety
It seems likely that untrustworthy people opposed to renewable energy - fossil fuel fanatics - deliberately misled people regarding the risk. That happens a lot because too many people are too easily impressed by skilfully developed misleading marketing.
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John Wise at 22:38 PM on 14 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Fire seems to be the main concern with lithium type batteries. A 200Mw battery storage project was proposed in my rural Ontario municipality, but was almost unanimously rejected by residents because of fear of fire.
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Riduna at 10:48 AM on 14 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
If the qualities attributed to solid state Lithium batteries are ever realised, (possibly this decade?) then surely battery storage will become the most efficient and least expensive way of maintaining grid stability. Battery storage also ensures that waste of solar/wind energy is minimised.
Can any other forms of storage compete with batteries?
Australia has convincingly demonstrated that water storage is not an option because it is so massively more expensive than batteries. -
One Planet Only Forever at 02:16 AM on 14 August 2025The coolest new energy storage technologies
Nice summary of the many existing and developing methods of storage excess renewable energy for use when the renewable generation is less than the demand.
A minor clarification is required regarding the presentation on Hydrogen. The planned project in Utah is better than the way it is summarized. The project in Utah is intended to ultimately burn pure Green Hydrogen, as explained in “Hydrogen is transforming a tiny Utah coal town. Could its success hold lessons for similar communities?” (Emma Penrod, Utility Dive):
"Because the original IPP plan called for the construction of two additional coal units that were never built, the cooperative had room on site for a new set of generators — two natural gas units totaling 840 MW. These will start running a 30% hydrogen blend as early as this summer, with a goal of using 100% carbon-free hydrogen by 2045.
I would add one more important point that seems to always be missed when discussing the future of renewable energy systems. There is something that can happen immediately, needing no new technology or systems to be developed or built.
The transition to a net-zero climate impact energy system will happen quicker and produce less total harmful impact if people who currently are over-consumers of energy rapidly transition to living without the excessive 'convenient and enjoyable' but unnecessary energy use.
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prove we are smart at 13:23 PM on 6 August 2025The Republican campaign to stop the U.S. EPA from protecting the climate
"Trumps flat earth EPA" or " Trump is putting fealty to big oil over sound science for public health". Here is a simple explanation of it all
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cLqUQ4tQLI
Over 46years ago, a USA president installed 32 solar panels on the White House for heating water and wanted government research funds into photovoltaic energy for the grid.
The era of Reaganomics 7years later tore them down and their associated tax credits finished months earlier-one joined the collection of the Solar Science and Technology Museum in Dezhou, China !
yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/02/the-forgotten-story-of-jimmy-carters-white-house-solar-panels/
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michael sweet at 03:46 AM on 6 August 2025Is Nuclear Energy the Answer?
Responding to David-acct's off topic comment here:
Your claim that the data from your linked site does not support my statement that French nuclear power plants do not shut down is false on its face.
This data showed that reactors were shut down on the weekend:
date time Power MW
8/10 2:45 31645 Thursday 2023
8/10 13:45 30424
8/5 4:15 28489 Saturday 2023
8/5 16:15 25548On Saturday at 16::15 6,097 MW less power was generated than on Thursday at 2:45. On 8/14/2023 I posed these questions to you:
"Several question about this raw data occured to me.
1) You state clearly that the data shows no nuclear power stations were shut down. Please explain why the power generated on the weekend is so much less than the power generated on Thursday. How does this show that no power stations were shut down over the weekend? It appears to me that about 6 of 31 power stations (20%) were turned off.
2) On both days they are generating more power at night when power is generated at a loss than they are generating during the day when the price of electricity is much higher. Can you explain why the "always on" nuclear plants generate less power during the most expensive part of the day than they do when electricity is cheapest?
This example proves beyond doubt that examining cherry picked factoids without any analysis is a complete waste of time. Please do not cite raw data any more. You need to cite analysis of data that filter out gross errors."
You refused to answer and stopped posting at SkS for several months. Please answer those questions now.
Looking at the French power link again I found this data for the weekend of August 2 (Saturday) and August 4 2025 (Monday).
date time Power MW
8/2 05:00 39717
8/2 14:15 25091
8/4 04:00 39722
8/4 13:45 24128
On this weekend reactors were shut off during the day. On 8/4 15 MW less power was being generated at 13:45 than at 04:00. Please explain why so many reactors were turned off. Other posters have suggested that they might shut down the reactors because there is not enough cooling water or because they cannot compete with cheaper solar power. In any case, the reactors are turned off since no one wants to purchase their power.
I note that since France has 63 GW of nuclear power the highest capacity factor last weekend was 63% and the lowest was 38%.
If they wasted the nuclear power by turning down the power output that counts as shut down. We cannot tell from the data if 15 reactors were shut off or if 30 reactors were run at half power.
I note that you said here "It would seem the cost of doing so would be prohibitive given the costs of restarts,"
I found this on Bloomburg French power slumps as surging renewables push out atomic plants which suggests that nuclear plants cannot compete with renewables even when they are owned by the government.
I do not care if you are not skilled enough to find resources that state France does not shut down reactors on the weekends. I linked a site that specifically stated that plants close on weekends and provided data (from your link) that showed without doubt that several reactors were closed on the weekend.
Apparently now they are shut down on sunny and/or windy days, in addition to weekends, because they cannot compete with cheaper renewables.
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michael sweet at 03:07 AM on 6 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
David-acct:
You have posted many times here on SkS. You frequently post off topic. You have been told many times to post on topic, yet you refuse to do so. When you post off topic others cannot later look back and see what you said since yhou said it on a random OP.
I have responded to you on the Nuclear thread where discussions of nuclear power and its failures is on topic.
You appear to apologize for posting off topic but you do not acknowledge that you are asking a quiestion that has already been answered for you here on SkS, If you are going to post here you need to remember what you have been taught and not ask the same question over and over.
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letitbit at 23:23 PM on 5 August 2025It's Urban Heat Island effect
Just an Idea. Urbanisation has historically been correlated with (more) air pollution. Air pollution has a local (temporary) colling effect. Isn't it possible, that above average increases in temperature caused by urbanisation didn't show up in the data because of that correlation? One proofable prediction from that theory would be that at least in Europe in recent decades temperatures in urban areas must have grown faster than in rural areas since air has gotten much cleaner in the cities, causing a "temperature catch-up-effect". Also there is a trend in European cities to regreen, which would have the opposite effect.
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David-acct at 08:54 AM on 5 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
MIchael Sweet - My apologies, though my question on France's nuclear power is in response to your initial comment #4 in response to TDeR.
Thanks for the reminder on the french Eco2mix, my apologies for not responding earlier. However, real time data from the eco2mix doesnt support the contention that france shuts down their reactors on the weekends. the vast majority of weekends show little or no change in electric generation from nuclear. There are declines in production every 7-8 weeks, though those dont appear to be connected to any shut downs. There is a wikipedia mention of shut downs, though the footnote is from an article from 2009, which doesnt appear to be valid after 2009. I could not find any support via a google search of the topic
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michael sweet at 02:03 AM on 5 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
David-acct at 11:
I am very disappointed that you have forgotten the discussion we had in August 2023 about France shutting down reactors on the weekend since their power is too expensive to sell.
Here and at the following posts you posted off topic and we discussed that France shuts down their reactors on the weekends. I linked to Wikipedia. Since it is common knowledge that France shuts down their reactors on the weekends it is not discussed in the peer reivewed literature.
In the posts following my link you provided a link that gave the amount of electricity generated in France using their nuclear plants by day claiming that it showed reactors were not turned off on the weekend. A cursory glance at the data indicated that France shut down at least 6 of their plants on the weekend. They may partially scale back production from more plants but it is cheaper to shut down 6 plants than to work 12 plants at half speed. You did not provide any information that suggested they do not shut down their plants on the weeekend.
This data showed that reactors were shut down on the weekend:
date time Power MW
8/10 2:45 31645 Thursday
8/10 13:45 30424
8/5 4:15 28489 Saturday
8/5 16:15 25548I note that in our previous discussion more than half of the "always on" nuclear plants were not generating power in the middle of an energy crisis since they required long term unscheduled maintenance.
I have previously linked Jacobson et al 2022 for you. It is not my job to go find the homework you threw away in the trash. As MA Rodger says, it is easily Googled.
Jacobson has been publishing full system analysis since 2015. Every paper renewable energy becomes cheaper and cheaper. Meanwhile the British have signed contracts for $50 billion (not counting interest) for a 1700 MW nuclear plant. Nuclear costs go up and up.
Why should I have to go find references to previous discussions that we have had??? If you do not pay attention to discussions we have here on SkS you should stop posting.
This post is off topic again. The OP is about renewable energy and you are posting about nuclear power.
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MA Rodger at 22:49 PM on 4 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
David-acct @8 &11,
Note that Google Scholar does provide a link to a pre-print PDF of Idel (2022) 'Levelized Full System Costs of Electricity'.
And there is a PDF of Jacobson et al (2022) 'Low-cost solutions to global warming, air pollution, and energy insecurity for 145 countries' HERE
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David-acct at 09:01 AM on 4 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
Michael Sweet
I am definitely not Tder2012 - fwiw he doesnt come across as being very well informed.
Can you provide a link to full systems analysis by jacobson 2022. I am familiar with several of his 100% renewable studies, though I dont recall any parts of his studies that include a full system cost analysis. Best I recall is his comments that the renewable cost is less expensive when measuring the cost of generation.
Can you also post a link for France shutting down their nuclear reactors on weekends. I am familiar with the costs overruns and financial issues. I just cant find any source supporting shutting down reactors on the weekends. It would seem the cost of doing so would be prohibitive given the costs of restarts,
thanks
Moderator Response:[BL] I will confirm from an SkS moderation standpoint that there is absolutely no indication that David-acct and tder2012 have any connection at all, other than being independent participants in the discussion forums here.
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michael sweet at 06:12 AM on 4 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
tder2012 has linked your study several times. According to Google Scholar it has only been cited 39 times in three years. That low number of citations shows that it has not been adopted as a better method of assessing electricity costs to the grid than LCOE. Nuclear power suporters seem to like that study, but realists do not. Lazard thinks that LCOE is the best method for a simple cost comparison.
Full systems analysis like Jacobson et al 2022 and many others find that a completely renewable system will be much cheaper than fossil energy, will additionally have dramatic health effects and resolve AGW. No published studies of future energy systems support using nuclear power, it is too slow and expensive.
I note that you have very rapidly posted in support of tder2012 after they were banned. Your posting style is very similar to tder2012.
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David-acct at 08:59 AM on 2 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
There is a second study "Levelized full system costs of electricity" published in 2022 in science direct.
Unfortunately, It requires a paid subscription and therefore I cant review the study to ascertain the validity ie whether it is with a superficial anti renewable bias.
Thanks
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0360544222018035
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David-acct at 08:54 AM on 2 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
The OP makes a valid point with this point -
"A better analysis would use the cost of generating power in order to isolate the impact of renewables. We can get a better estimate of that by using the wholesale price of electricity."
That is absolutely true if you are only measuring the cost of generation.
" Beyond LCOE : A systems oriented perspective for evaluating electricity decarbonization pathways which was published here at SkS on June 12, 2025. The study provides a very comprehensive explanation for the total costs of electric generation, transmission, etc.
" While LCOE is a good metric to track historical technology cost evolution, it is not an appropriate tool to use in the context of long-term planning and policymaking for deep decarbonization. This report explains why LCOE fails to reflect the full complexity of electricity systems and can lead to decisions that jeopardize reliability, affordability, and clean generation."
https://www.catf.us/resource/beyond-lcoe/
The PDF attached is at the link
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tder2012 at 20:01 PM on 1 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
In comment 4. it states "The French electric company is bankrupt since they lose money on their nuclear electric sales. They close many reactors on the weekends since their electricity is too expensive to sell. They have artificially low retail prices to make voters think nuclear power is a good deal." Is there a suitable form of evidence for these statements?
Moderator Response:[BL] This is obviously a complaint about having your own posts moderated.
In the Comments Policy you seem to want to ignore, the first bullet point ends with:
Moderation complaints are always off topic and will be deleted
It is clear that you have no intention of following the Comments Policy. As such, you have chosen to recuse yourself from further participation in this venue.
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prove we are smart at 07:33 AM on 1 August 2025Two international courts just issued major climate rulings. Here’s what that means
"Only 28% of U.S. residents regularly hear about climate change in the media, but 77% want that news. We can change that, and our only limitation is the size of our budget. Unlike some outlets, we don’t have fossil-fuel backers. And we’re not funded directly by Yale University. Will you chip in to put more climate news in front of Americans in 2025?"
So I thought is this the same in my country? Here is an interesting insight to what maybe applicable to middle ground of many peoples climate change opinions
"In other words, for many Australians, it’s not just what evidence and information is presented about climate change. It’s also how it’s said, who says it, and why it’s being said." www.unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2025/04/change-mind-climate-change
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tder2012 at 01:33 AM on 1 August 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
Sorry "Meanwhile energy transition to renewables has cost $750 billion euros with steadily increasing electricity costs and negligible decarbonization"
[snip]
"> In 2000 German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder began a phase-out of nuclear power in coalition with the Green Party
> 2005 Gerhard leaves office and gets a position at a Russian gas company
> Decline in Nuclear power capacity almost exactly matched by increase in gas generation
> 2016 Trump criticizes Germany for dependence on Russian gas
> 2021, natural gas accounts for 30% of German power production with half coming from Russia
> Meanwhile energy transition to renewables has cost $750 billion euros with steadily increasing electricity costs and negligible decarbonization
> 2022 Ukraine war breaks out
> Electricity prices in Germany skyrocket
> Massively accelerates decline of energy intensive industries in Germany
> Meanwhile France has 10x cleaner energy for 40% cheaper than Germany
> Renewables energy transition abysmal failure, dirtiest energy in Europe and among the most expensive, overall industrial decline and energy insecurity
Just so everyone knows how completely self inflicted Germanys dire energy predicament was" source
Moderator Response:[BL] The only link I see to support your assertions is to a Twitter - er, sorry, X - account. The assertions on that tweet are unsupported, and you are simply repeating them here. That is not a suitable form of evidence.
Final Warning
Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
Moderating this site is a tiresome chore, particularly when commentators repeatedly submit offensive, off-topic posts or intentionally misleading comments and graphics or simply make things up. We really appreciate people's cooperation in abiding by the Comments Policy, which is largely responsible for the quality of this site.
Finally, please understand that moderation policies are not open for discussion. If you find yourself incapable of abiding by these common set of rules that everyone else observes, then a change of venues is in the offing.Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter, as no further warnings shall be given.
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tder2012 at 23:22 PM on 31 July 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
Germany should focus mostly on their citizens' health and not as much about cost. They definitely should not be seen as an example to follow to decarbonize the electricity grid. "The German nuclear phaseout may have caused up to thousands of excess deaths annually according to several studies.
[Large snip]
It’s no secret that the phaseout was a disaster. But when you start digging into the real-world consequences, that’s when reality really hits.
Over the past decade, several researchers have tried to quantify the consequences. One topic that keeps coming up is how many people have died as a result of coal replacing nuclear.
Most studies agree that the number is in the hundreds or thousands per year, but they reach that conclusion in different ways.
Some, like Jarvis et al. (2022) and Núñez-Mujica et al. (2025), model the increase in coal emissions, run those through atmospheric dispersion models, and apply dose-response functions to estimate the health impact. Their numbers land around 725 to 800 excess deaths per year.
Neidell et al. (2021) take a different route. They look at reduced electricity consumption following the phaseout and estimate over 1,100 additional deaths per year linked to cold exposure and energy poverty.
Kharecha & Sato (2019) project out to 2035 and estimate a long-run average of around 2,286 annual deaths, based on increased air pollution alone.
Then there’s Kaariaho (2025), whose number (170 deaths per year) is much lower. That’s not because the health impact was smaller, but because the scope was. Kaariaho only looks at respiratory diseases, and only at observed mortality using a synthetic control method. In other words, it’s a very conservative lower bound.I’ve put these results together in a single graphic. Each dot represents a study. Together, they show a clear pattern: coal replaced nuclear, and people died because of it.
This isn’t about nuclear versus renewables. If you remove clean energy while fossil fuels are still on the grid, guess what fills the gap?
In Germany, it was coal. And it killed people." source
Moderator Response:[BL] And how you are off-topic. as a hint, look at the title of the post: Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition. Then read the post, and stick to the topic. You have also been previously warning about shifting your arguments from one thread to another.
Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
Moderating this site is a tiresome chore, particularly when commentators repeatedly submit offensive or off-topic posts. We really appreciate people's cooperation in abiding by the Comments Policy, which is largely responsible for the quality of this site.
Finally, please understand that moderation policies are not open for discussion. If you find yourself incapable of abiding by these common set of rules that everyone else observes, then a change of venues is in the offing.Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.
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Bob Loblaw at 10:37 AM on 31 July 2025It's not bad
Jlsoaz @ 428:
As Eclectic notes in his response, SkS is a volunteer effort.
In addition, the idea that there can be a specific attribution of a single death, a single health outcome, a single item of property damage that can be attributed to climate or weather is pretty much impossible, as you state.
Epidemiological methods are appropriate, but as you state, these are statistical methods, applying to defined populations - not single events.
Those denying the science (be it climate change, tobacco use, whatever) essentially commit two fallacies in this area:
- The fallacy of division, where properties of the whole are incorrectly assumed to apply to the individual parts. ( If climate change or tobacco smoke causes deaths at the population level, we should be able to identify it in individuals.)
- The fallacy of composition, where it is incorrectly assumed that properties of part of the system can be applied to the system as a whole. (Since you can't attribute an individual death to climate change or tobacco, you can't determine that these increase death rates at the population level.)
I doubt that denialists will be bothered by attribution studies - they'll just block them out by applying their Morton's demon.
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michael sweet at 07:06 AM on 31 July 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
Tder2012:
The OP shows that wholesale electric prices are similar in Franch and Germany. This shows that renewable energy is not more expensive than fossil and nuclear energy. Did you read the OP?? The OP provides data that show your claims are completely false.
The French electric company is bankrupt since they lose money on their nuclear electric sales. They close many reactors on the weekends since their electricity is too expensive to sell. They have artificially low retail prices to make voters think nuclear power is a good deal.
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tder2012 at 23:26 PM on 30 July 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
Since natural gas is so expensive, then why doesn't Germany use less natural gas (and coal for that matter)? France uses hardly any fossil fuels and their electricity rates are cheaper than Germany. See Germany electricity production for the last 12 months here. See France electricity production for the last 12 months here. See EU electricity prices here. Annalisa Manera, prof at ETH-Zurich comments on German electricity pricing here.
Moderator Response:[BL] You are skating on very thin ice. Rhetorical questions do not represent reasonable discussion. If you can't be bothered to try to answer your own questions, then why should others do your work for you? (Hint: they shouldn't.)
And the Comments Policy contains the following text:
No link or picture only. Any link or picture should be accompanied by text summarizing both the content of the link or picture, and showing how it is relevant to the topic of discussion. Failure to do both of these things will result in the comment being considered off topic.
You have provided four links in three lines of text, without giving anything beyond a vague indication of what you expect people to see in those links. We can't read your mind, so we can't tell just what sort of evidence you want us to find, let lone what question you are trying to address. You have been warned about this before.
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Eclectic at 10:45 AM on 30 July 2025It's not bad
Jlsoaz @ 428 :
Not to be argumentative ~ which I never am . . . well, hardly ever ~ and I never say a big big D-—
[unlike in the days of Gilbert & Sullivan, a big big D- nowadays stands for Denier ]
.... Though to reply to you seriously :
~ My opinion is not strong, but merely ordinary.
~ SkepticalScience is a volunteer website, and thus suffers from limitation in time & resources to tackle/review any issue . . . and so prioritization should always be front-of-mind. All of which is a way of suggesting that it would be most welcome if you yourself submitted (to the Editorial Board) a cogent analysis of the Attribution current status.
~ Yes, I agree with you that "attribution" of property damages & deaths does upset denialists. But denialists are delicate creatures, and are sensitive to all sorts of issues. And upsetting denialists does not change their opinions. They simply carry on digging in deeper with their Motivated Reasoning.
~ It is the politician and the Man-in-the-street who can be influenced by occasional headlines pointing out the Attribution component. Yet the cry of Attribution is like the Boy-who-cried-Wolf . . . the result can easily be a public numbness as (in the years between major hurricane and flood damage) the public's life returns to normal or normal-ish. Especially since it is so easy for denialists to publicly cloud the issue by pointing out the fuzziness of the data . . . and how the local flood/hurricane was ever-so-much worse in Grand-pappy's time back in 1920 or 1880 or whatever.
~ My ordinary opinion is that you will have greater success by using arguments related to pocket-book issues (and perhaps: refugee migration increase). Priorities !
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jlsoaz at 00:43 AM on 30 July 2025It's not bad
Eclectic at post number 427:
In my opinion,
it could be useful to do some thinking around the wording of the myth that needs busting here. Is it "Myth: Nobody has died from global warming."? Or perhaps it is something like:
Myth: Under strict defensible peer-reviewed scientific methods, deaths, health impacts and property damage cannot be attributed to global warming.
Reality: Under strict defensible peer-reviewed scientific methods, deaths, health impacts and property damage are difficult to attribute to any one cause such as global warming, but probability estimates can be made, and over time it becomes more clear whether a given cause is having certain impacts, even when there are many other possible factors. We have seen this with smoking and other killers where it was difficult for scientists to attribute deaths at first, but after much research and careful following of established epidemiological methods, attribution was possible.
As to whether it would be useful for skepticalscience.com to put forth the resources to get this one my busted, I'm assuming that all myths busted require some effort, including possible consultation with relevant scientific experts or at least careful study of their publications, and I do not recall a single instance of skeptical science indicating that they would refrain from busting a myth because a member thought it would not be that helpful.
As a side-note, I disagree with your strong opinion. I can't think of anything that (in my own fallible opinion) is more likely to upset denialists more than attribution of (and discussion and debate of attribution of) deaths to Anthropogenic Climate Change. Ideally, we will eventually see counters (similar to the atomic bombs of heat counter on skepticalscience.com) which will show range estimates for how many deaths are attributable to ACC. -
michael sweet at 13:16 PM on 29 July 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
I think it is a good idea for Skeptical Science to post articles on how renewables can cheaply power the world.
Most deniers have stopped claiming that it is not warming. They have shifted to claiming renewable energy can't work. Skeptical Science is a good place to address these claims.
The Climate Brink has a lot of good posts on Climate and renewable energy.
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Bob Loblaw at 04:31 AM on 29 July 2025Have renewables decreased electricity prices: European edition
I just received my monthly electricity bill this morning. Delivery, regulatory fees, and taxes are roughly 1/3 of the total. Electricity cost varies with time-of-day - at the low overnight rates, delivery, regulatory fees, and tax are very simlar to the actual electricity cost.
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nigelj at 07:41 AM on 27 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
I agree with the comments by OPOF and prove we are smart. Americas current government is indeed very corrupt and anti democratic and quite fascist and bullying. They ignore democracy, the courts, the constitution, due process, the American people as a whole and any decent ethical standards.
The reasons are obvious. The MAGA crowd see some liberal leaning beliefs and policies as so fundamentally wrong that they should be eliminated ruthlessly and completely, so the ends justify the means. This is just so wrong on so many levels, where do you even start?
The policies the MAGA elite attack include such things as climate science, other fields of science, immigration, free trade, globalisation, inclusivity, social security, the federal bureaucracy, federal regulatory systems, environmental protections, consumer protections, medicaide.
Anyone who thinks such things are fundamentally wrong is clearly mentally delusional or bigoted, and likely has motives of wanting to be able to profit financially regardless of consequences to others and the environment.
At most such policies need some reform form time to time, but what MAGA have done is mindless destruction that will make America poorer economically and intellectually. It's a truly dumb collection of self inflicted wounds, driven by fears of non existent monsters lurking in the closet.
Moderator Response:[BL]
Gentlemen (nigel, others on this thread).
Although the weekly news post is generally accepted to be a little freer with respect to openness and wandering topics,. can we please keep the derogatory labels and insults to a minimum?
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prove we are smart at 18:16 PM on 26 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
America is showing any interested people why democracy is a myth, at least in the freedum and entitled USA.
When your elected representatives can be legally bribed er, I mean lobbied to fill their pockets by an increasingly allowed corporations. Even foreign nations using your elected officials greedy weaknesses to spread off-shore propoganda. www.opensecrets.org/federal-lobbying
2024 was a Landslide...for 'Did Not Vote' What a forlorn democracy in the USA when more eligible voters stayed home than the Trump winner got. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_United_States_presidential_elections
And how to decide your vote? well Mis,dis and crapinformation with plenty of $$$ www.reuters.com/world/us/how-worlds-richest-man-is-helping-trumps-presidential-bid-2024-10-23/
The more corrupt a leader,the more corrupt their policies and unfortunately in the USA the world is watching his equally corrupt enables fast-tracking the ransacking of a countries arguably good reputation.
I'm tired,we are all tired, the lack of movement down in the big 4 of human caused ghg is now beyond catastrophic www.climate.gov/ghg/current-levels
The ugly American is alive and well but so too the ugly Australian and Britain,Frenchman,German and many more. The will to change radically is weak, me included so now..theconversation.com/why-ill-talk-politics-with-climate-change-deniers-but-not-science-34949
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One Planet Only Forever at 23:58 PM on 24 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
This new NPR story: Trump's EPA now says greenhouse gases don't endanger people, appears to be an attempt to mislead people about the reality of the climate change harm done by using fossil fuels. It contains the following:
Already, environmentalists, climate advocates and others are bracing for what could be a fundamental shift away from trying to address the problem of a hotter climate. And the Trump administration is celebrating the proposal as a potential economic win.
"Today is the greatest day of deregulation our nation has seen," EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin said in announcing the proposal in March. "We are driving a dagger straight into the heart of the climate change religion to drive down cost of living for American families, unleash American energy, bring auto jobs back to the U.S. and more."
The economic wins cause others to pay the price. It taxes those who are harmed. The International court ruling pointed to in my comment @5 exposes this as just another example of how harmfully misleading the likes of Trump are.
That is the harmful belief that vicious competition for superiority - reduced taxes and more personal benefits - is the only option. That is the current rage on the right. They believe that - Things would be Greater if people wanting to benefit from being more harmful and vicious are freer to do as they please and are excused for any harm they cause because of the perceptions of benefits obtained.
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One Planet Only Forever at 08:57 AM on 24 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
People who deliberately fight against increased awareness and improved understanding of how to be less harmful and more helpful to others deserve to face questions and criticism they dislike. They deserve disrespect and ridicule.
The UN News report “World Court says countries are legally obligated to curb emissions, protect climate” makes it abundantly clear that regional governments with histories of acting in ways that delay the transition from undeniably harmful fossil fuels to less harmful alternatives deserve to face serious penalties. The UN News report includes the following "Reasoning of the Court":
The Court used Member States’ commitments to both environmental and human rights treaties to justify this decision.
Firstly, Member States are parties to a variety of environmental treaties, including ozone layer treaties, the Biodiversity Convention, the Kyoto Protocol, the Paris Agreement and many more, which oblige them to protect the environment for people worldwide and in future generations.
But, also because “a clean, healthy and sustainable environment is a precondition for the enjoyment of many human rights,” since Member States are parties to numerous human rights treaties, including the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, they are required to guarantee the enjoyment of such rights by addressing climate change.
So, in addition to the good questions proposed by wilddouglascounty @2, the fundamentals of the ruling raise questions about US government actions that have harmful impacts other than climate change impacts. An example would be Trump administration shuts down EPA's scientific research arm as reported by NPR which includes the following:
The agency is closing the Office of Research and Development, which analyzes dangers posed by a variety of hazards, including toxic chemicals, climate change, smog, wildfires, indoor air contaminants, water pollution, watershed destruction and drinking water pollutants. The office also manages grant programs that fund universities and private companies.
Under President Trump's leadership, EPA has taken a close look at our operations to ensure the agency is better equipped than ever to deliver on our core mission of protecting human health and the environment while powering the great American comeback," said EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin in a statement announcing the plan Friday. "This reduction in force will ensure we can better fulfill that mission while being responsible stewards of your hard-earned tax dollars.
The US government has also stopping funding NPR (Recently completing an action demanded by Trump in May of this year - NPR report: President Trump has issued an executive order to pull federal funds from NPR and PBS) to ‘selectively save tax dollars’.
The choice to stop supporting NPR is likely because NPR has a News section dedicated to Climate Change and it also reports many things like the above report.
An interesting related item is the CBC report “Green energy has passed 'positive tipping point,' and cost will come down, UN says”. That story about the UN report on renewable energy systems includes the following:
Renewables are booming despite fossil fuels getting nearly nine times the government consumption subsidies as they do, Guterres and the reports said. In 2023, global fossil fuel subsidies amounted to $620 billion US, compared with $70 billion US for renewables, the UN said.
A clear understanding of Taxes is important. I would argue that any negative consequences of government actions, and lack of action, are “Taxes’ (someone somewhere sometime pays a price). The massive subsidies for fossil fuels are clearly “Taxes”. But the harms resulting from insufficient investigation into and regulation of the harm done by economic pursuits are also Taxes.
One of the most damaging misunderstandings today is the belief that competition for perceptions of superiority will effectively self-regulate to minimize the harm done (limit the Taxes caused) by competitors and make harmful competitors adequately make amends for harm done.
It is clear that more freedom for competitors for perceptions of superiority results in dominance by people who believe they are the winners if they can be more threatening and more harmful to Others than Others can be to them.
There are no winners in a competition that allows perceptions of superiority to be obtained by ‘being more harmful or more unjustifiably threatening'.
People pursuing more benefit by being more harmful are the only ones who deserve to feel, and actually be, threatened with serious negative consequences.
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John Hartz at 13:32 PM on 23 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
SueEllen Campbell's article, These must-read story series explore our climate-changed world, published on the Yale Climate Communications' website today, includes a nice blurb about our Weekly News Round-Up.
I suspect there will be an uptick in the number of people viewing the SkS Facebook page. Ditto for the SkS website.
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nigelj at 06:15 AM on 22 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
Wild Douglas suggests quite a good approach to things.
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wilddouglascounty at 23:55 PM on 21 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
By passing the Trump bill, the Republicans have cemented themselves as being Climate Change CHEERLEADERS. Everything they promote is knowingly PROMOTING increasingly frequent and severe weather events and they should be held accountable at mid-terms. The scientific community has laid out the evidence of the consequences of these policies as clearly as possible and the response is to shut down that science and enact policies that will only make things worse. This should be pointed out at every opportunity: why are you promoting more wildfires, worse flooding, longer hotter droughts, and cutting our ability to monitor, predict and understand these destructive events? Why are you promoting activities that will INCREASE carbon emissions, not decrease them, when the consequences of such policies are so clear? Do you think cleaning up after natural disasters is a better economic activity than installing home insulation and more efficient appliances to reduce people's bills? Why is incentivizing more fossil fuel production and decreasing National Weather Service funding a better response than the opposite, when the opposite will reduce the costs of natural disasters that have a much bigger impact on our nation's economy? Why is exporting Climate Change a better policy for foreign aid than building health care capacity in developing countries? The list is endless and we need to demand answers to all of them.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:46 AM on 21 July 20252025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #29
Many items on this, and other News Roundups, can be categorized as stories about efforts to ‘sustain’ the popularity of harmful misunderstandings by misleading promotion of harmful misunderstandings and trying to keep people less aware that they are being harmfully misled.
I chose to emphasize the term ‘sustain’ because misleading messengers try to pervert the meaning of terms. And it relates to the listed item: Airlines risk legal challenges by advertising jet fuel as "sustainable", NGO warns.
In addition to the distortions of meaning regarding Sustainable Aviation Fuel. Many major fossil fuel driven organizations, including regional governments that have been captured by, and share the harmful unsustainable interests of, fossil fuel business organizations have set up internal ‘departments of sustainability’ that are better called promoters trying to prolong (‘sustain’) undeniably harmful and unsustainable pursuits of benefit.
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One Planet Only Forever at 04:19 AM on 21 July 2025Update on Texas flooding
RedRoseAndy,
This comment is nearly identical to the comment you made in April on the 2025 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #16 linked to here. My response there still applies to your slightly modified comment (except it is obviously now too late to have the thoughts be part of the UN Ocean Action Panel event.
In the future if you see a potential to repeat this input on a new SkS posting you could simply point people to the comment you made in April (like I have done).
Note that your comment does not appear to relate well to this specific item. The comment made in April was related to some of the articles listed in the News Roundup #16. So it would be better to point people to the April comment, not this one. And supplementary related points should be made on that item, not on this item.
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RedRoseAndy at 20:21 PM on 16 July 2025Update on Texas flooding
Offsetting CO2 Emissions with Fish
Professor Oswald Schmitz is quoted in ‘New Scientist’ as saying: “Fish have a “tremendous” impact on carbon storage. “Part of it is in just the sheer biomass of these animals,” he says. But bony fish also fix carbon into insoluble minerals in their intestines as part of their way of dealing with constantly ingesting seawater. “It’s a sort of rock-like substance that they poop out and that sinks to the ocean bottom really quickly.” Collectively, marine fish account for the storage of a whopping 5.5 gigatonnes of carbon each year.” (Man produces 37.41 gigatonnes of CO2 a year.) Scientists say that we used to have nine times as many fish as we do now, so there is plenty of room for a man-made increase in fish numbers by offsetting companies, if we got fish stocks up to historic levels our fish would store 49.5 gigatonnes a year, which is more than man produces in a year at the moment.
Using my method of preventing fish extinction can also, then, be a method for offsetting CO2 emissions, and even reversing global heating.
A Practical Solution To Fish Stock Depletion
Fish in the wild are being over exploited, and whole fish species face extinction. But there is an easy way of preventing these extinctions. An international law should be passed which ensures that the gonads of all fish caught are liquidized and put into water containers, the fish are usually gutted anyway so this would not be a great hardship for the fishermen. Once liquidized, artificial fertilization takes place, and after twenty four hours the fertilized fish eggs can be released into the sea. The bucket of young fish needs it’s temperature equal to the sea they are released into to prevent fry death, so standing for a length of time with the fry bucket in the sea needs a wet suit before release. When this is scaled up by offsetting organisations a less painful method will be used. Ensure that the water in your bucket is the temperature of the sea to avoid fish deaths. It does not matter where the eggs are put back because the fry of each species find their way back to the environment they originally come from.
In this way, the sea can be repopulated, and fishing can even become sustainable.
The Japanese were the first country to fish in this way, and had their Navy protect the massive shoal until the fish matured. I have only heard of it being done the once, though.
Perhaps using sonar in fishing can be banned in order to give our fish more of a chance in life.
