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DSL at 00:49 AM on 4 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Vonnegut, can you list the critical/essential papers not referenced directly or indirectly (1-2 levels) in IPCC AR5 WG1?
Your statement is odd. You claim to want an "answer," but you do not accept the answer given. You then claim that SkS is unscientific. You either know the answer you want to hear (but refuse to provide evidence for such an answer), or you never did want to hear the answer. Not very skeptical of you. Kurt is rolling in his grave.
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mgardner at 00:36 AM on 4 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
Rob Painting (and others who responded).
After my comment @7, I did an eye-watering search of images to be sure I wasn't missing the obvious-- no luck, so let me elaborate on what I'm looking for.
The myth about 'trapped' or 'excluded' heat energy in the ocean relies on confusing people about the most basic facts and physics principles.
What I would like to see is a series of illustrations or animation that emphasize
1) That what is being transported is water at some temperature T1(not 'heat')
2) That when it is mechanically forced by your gyres to a lower stratum, which is above water at T3, it displaces the water at that stratum upward, which is at some T2, <T1 but >T3.
3) That this is a continuous process, so we are really seeing a vertical circulation, where the original surface water is going to reach an equilibrium T2a (dependent on turbulence), but which is >T2, and it will eventuall be diplaced upwards as well.
Now, that's my non-specialist understanding, which I'm happy to have corrected in the main (I know it's simplistic). But for this (and other) mechanisms, for the hypothetical naive but open-minded reader, a clear picture should do a much better job than all my words.
The problem is, all the pictures I can find tend to support the mythological position; in attempting to portray the various vertical changes in a single, static, image, they create this illusion that the temperature changes but the water remains in place. Hence my reference to "caloric theory"-- that's what the pictures remind me of.
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Tom Dayton at 00:30 AM on 4 February 2014Climate's changed before
Vonnegut, of course my answer was only about the really short term in versus out of CO2 from the oceans. Over longer periods, other processes remove "CO2" (really, the chemical byproducts of CO2) from the ocean into sediments. That is covered by the OA is Not OK series, and also by other posts such as the place of that process in the even longer period cycling through the crust--explained in "Understanding the long-term carbon-cycle: weathering of rocks - a vitally important carbon-sink."
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Composer99 at 00:27 AM on 4 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
The atmospheric greenhouse effect has been confirmed in theory, experiment, and empirical measurement for a century and a half. Why should every climate scientist, down to the present day, try to disprove it? Why waste time in their short careers trying to publish a "we tried to disprove the greenhouse effect and failed again" paper?
Methinks, Vonnegut, you are setting up an impossible expectation for rhetorical, rather than scientific, purposes.
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Vonnegut at 00:13 AM on 4 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
I thought as a scientists youre supposed to start out to dispove a theory, not decide the result then find the papers to back up your theory.
I realise I wont get the answer im looking for here
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Vonnegut at 00:06 AM on 4 February 2014OA not OK part 20: SUMMARY 2/2
The pic below is of a pteropod (sea butterfly) captured from waters around Antarctica recently:
I dont see a ph reading do you happen to know how alkaline the water was where this pterapod was collected??
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MarkR at 23:58 PM on 3 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
Damn it bjchip, I'm a scientist not a linguist. Thanks for the catch, correction made.
There have been so many articles devoted to explaining the greenhouse effect. What I hoped to get across here was how thsoe who don't like it have completely failed to present any explanation for the spectral measurements. Aside from denying that these measurements exist or are possible.
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Tom Dayton at 23:43 PM on 3 February 2014Climate's changed before
Vonnegut: Not necessarily. Oceans always release CO2 and absorb CO2--both processes. Oceans are able to hold less CO2 the warmer they are. Whether the net effect is more CO2 in than out depends not only on the temperature but on the atmospheric partial pressure of CO2--how much CO2 is in the air.
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Vonnegut at 23:17 PM on 3 February 2014Climate's changed before
So If I understand this correctly, Co2 is released from the oceans with extra heat so the oceans will become more alkaline, or more acid if it gets colder and more co2 is dissolved in the oceans?
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bjchip at 23:14 PM on 3 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
"it has been attached using loads of"
perhaps "attacked" ???
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CBDunkerson at 22:26 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Sorry, messed up the link;
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CBDunkerson at 22:20 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Vonnegut wrote: "Will there ever be a basic break down of how many climate scientists actually disagree and how many actually agree and the total climate scientists involved in proving AGW true or false?"
Sure. That's been done for various years. See here for the most recent.
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MA Rodger at 22:10 PM on 3 February 2014Climate's changed before
Vonnegut @395.
Question 21 on the web page you link to doesn't provide the best answer in the world but the whole exercise is trying to be attractive to kids at the same time as keeping to the straight and narrow. (Thus Question 4. Do people farts contribute to climate change, too?) And it does fail to answer some questions it poses (eg Question 7) despite answers being readily presentable.
Question 21 is in error by failing to differentiate between CO2 uptake into the oceans (which is mainly a temperature thing) and the transfer of that CO2 into the deep oceans (which is better understood than is suggested by the question). But this isn't the sort of detail you would expect to throw at kids. I see no case for classing it as "misinformation".
BTW, thank you for the demonstration of how my cold oceans question works with deniers.
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CBDunkerson at 22:09 PM on 3 February 2014Climate's changed before
Vonnegut, I'm not sure why you would think that might be "misinformation". The only part I'd question is, "How and why CO2 gets stored and released from the deep oceans is something scientists are still working on." It is well established that colder water absorbs more CO2. I suspect what they are questioning is how the CO2 then gets mixed into the deep ocean, but I'd think that would happen inevitably happen over time... leaving the relevant mechanism just the warming and cooling of the water itself.
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Vonnegut at 21:04 PM on 3 February 2014Climate's changed before
This for me highlights one major problem for sceptics and parents
As the planet cools into an ice age, CO2 is transported to the deep oceans, helping to cool the planet. As the planet again warms at the end of an ice age, this CO2 is released from the oceans into the atmosphere, helping the warming process along. How and why CO2 gets stored and released from the deep oceans is something scientists are still working on. Increased wind, driving more ocean circulation and changes in marine algae that take in CO2 may be parts of the process.
Does this class as misinformation?
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Tom Curtis at 18:37 PM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
Vonnegut @666:
1) Antarctica does not have a simple climate, not even in relative terms.
2) Quoting a 2004 interview and assuming comments made regarding models in 2004 are relevant now represents a specious argument. If you cannot find a relevant modern quote, your Find a relevant modern quote or your questions are without basis.
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Vonnegut at 18:11 PM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
Thank you @665 Tom
Global climate computer model predictions of how the Antarctic climate may change over the next 100 years differ in detail from model to model. Most models, however, indicate relatively modest temperature increases around Antarctica over the next 50 years. Over this time period, the models predict increased snowfall over Antarctica, which should more than compensate for increased melting of Antarctic ice. However, many natural processes occurring in the Antarctic are not well represented in present climate models and further research is needed to improve our confidence in these predictions
I just find it odd that being a simple climate in relative terms that its not easier to model.
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Doug Hutcheson at 18:07 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Vonnegut @ 266
- No, I meant what I wrote, not what you wish I had written.
- There will always be people with different views and that is a precious part of the scientific milieu. A few of the 3% may be committed to denial before reason (just as a few of the 'pro-' crowd might be swayed by ideology), but the majority would arrive at their positions through reasonable, logical extrapolation from the results of their experiments and research. Only those who have the facts before them and yet deny their meaning (or even their existence) deserve to be in the rogues gallery, as you put it. The number of papers contradicting the AGW theory, published in expert, peer-reviewed journals is vanishingly small. If you disagree with this, where is your supporting research?
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Doug Hutcheson at 17:54 PM on 3 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
Like Andrew Mclaren, I am not a scientist (poet here ...), but I agree that this is a useful article to be able to link to. Sadly, the committed denialospheroids will dismiss it as just more spin and claim it has been 'widely discredited' (though so far they have been curiously unable to point to the scientific papers discrediting anything about which they make this claim). Neverthless, I will gladly add this arrow to my quiver of links to post in rebuttal of denialist comments on other sites I haunt, such as The Conversation, on the basis that any ambivalent people reading such a thread of comments need to be pointed to reliable information, to counter the ridiculous denialospheroid claims.
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Vonnegut at 17:50 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
@265 Doug you mean "Do you think that climate sciensts working out the perturbed changes in the climate have been affected by man"
SKS assumes every climate scientist knows mankind is to blame, That being the case what of the 3% who dont? are they in the rogues gallery too?
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Doug Hutcheson at 17:25 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
Vonnegut @ 264, do you think astroscientists working out the perturbed orbits of planets around the sun explicity affirm the theory of gravity in every paper they publish, or do you think in their field the phenomenon of gravity is so well understood that it needs no explicit restatement? Whatever your answer, you can apply the same reasoning to the question of climate scientists and the theory of anthropogenic global warming.
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Vonnegut at 16:38 PM on 3 February 2014Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature
1) most journals have strict word limits for their abstracts, and 2) frankly, every scientist doing climate research knows humans are causing global warming. There's no longer a need to state something so obvious.
quote from text in article above.
Do you think perhaps you let emotion and assumtion get in the way of a valid assessment?
Will there ever be a basic break down of how many climate scientists actually disagree and how many actually agree and the total climate scientists involved in proving AGW true or false?
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Andrew Mclaren at 16:38 PM on 3 February 2014Why rainbows and oil slicks help to show the greenhouse effect
Great to see some clear evidence that answers the common 'skeptic' demand for empirical evidence of enhanced greenhouse warming. Though I am not myself a climate scientist (artist here, heh heh) I have been drawn into the arguments quite a bit in media commentary, and have cited the example of heat-seeking missile technology a number of times. Suppose I should get some proper references for the actual work in that field (maybe some of it is classified info, not sure) but it is fairly well known that the early development of such technology had to work out instrumental errors due to the heat masking properties of CO2 and other GHGs, and to re-calibrate such guidance systems in order to make them work properly.
I can never resist the zinger which most effectively closes this Q.E.D. response to the 'no greenhouse effect' claims: should these folks find themselves up in the air with a heat-seeking missile on their tail, they can bet their flaming backsides, its aim is true!
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Tom Curtis at 16:30 PM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
Daniel, for what it is worth, wikipedia's (and hence Vonnegut's) claim is based on the following statement by the BAS:
"Global climate model predictions of how the Antarctic climate may change over the next 100 years differ in detail from model to model. Most models, however, indicate relatively modest temperature rises around Antarctica over the next 50 years and, over this time period, increased snowfall over the continent should more than compensate for increased melting of Antarctic ice and will thus partially offset the rise in sea level resulting from thermal expansion of the oceans and melting of icecaps and glaciers elsewhere in the world. However, many processes occurring in the polar regions are not well represented in climate models at present and further research is needed to improve our confidence in these predictions. This is particularly true for predictions beyond 50 years, when Antarctica may start to warm enough to have a significant impact on the ice sheets."
The only problem is that the statement comes from a page that was taken down by the BAS sometime between Feb 7th, 2006 and June 7th, 2007. Ergo the statement precedes the IPCC AR4, let alone AR5.
The nearest recent equivalent (from the page you are currently redirected to) reads:
"Antarctica is a vast ice sheet, around the size of the USA, and it is not surprising that different areas are behaving differently. On the Antarctic Peninsula, where climate is warming rapidly, 87% of glaciers are retreating but the area is small and the contribution to sea-level rise, a few centimetres per century, is comparable to that from Alaskan glaciers. The East Antarctic ice sheet appears close to balance, although increased snowfall may cause this area to thicken slowly in future. In West Antarctica, there is an area roughly the size of Texas where the ice sheet is thinning rapidly — the Amundsen Sea Embayment (ASE). Close to the coast in ASE, thinning rates are more than 1 metre per year."
(Current to at least Jan 17, 2014)
Of course, that does not support Vonnegut's claim.
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grindupBaker at 14:20 PM on 3 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
chriskoz #13 The tentative info I've found is that salt water freeze point at a pressure of, say, 4,000m depth is -15C (it's -1.9C at surface) so no freezing down there (someone please confirm that -15C number). Yes to the dynamic equilibrium sweet spot. It's an Oreo cookie with ice cream instead of fake cream. The balance temperature point depends on the ocean current flow rate of the below-zero water from the poles, as you say, the mixing rate from warm waters above (except at high latitudes) by way of mixing currents and octopi, and the average thermal conductivity of the Earth crust beneath down to the 5,000C zone (as from MA Rodger #9). I suggest taking the ocean thermocline shown by MA Rodger #9 and take it's 4,000m depth as the sea bed for illustrative example, then continue the thermocline down to the 5,000C zone based on that thermal conductivity of the Earth crust and if you get accurate data that will show you the heat flow from below (estimated at 0.08 wm**-2 globally geothermal heat, but not known precisely with much certainty). You can't deduce anything using heat conduction from warm waters above because you'll find it's so tiny that would take ~125,000 years to warm/cool the depths to same as surface following a surface MST anomaly if there were no currents bringing cold water through, so obviously the actual warming from waters above is 99%+ by fluid mixing.
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Larry E at 12:44 PM on 3 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
It would be interesting to overlay the first chart with average global air temperatures (putting the scale on the right hand side). I think this would help explain the flat-spot from 1993 to 2001, as well as showing the relationship of where growing heat is being manifested at present.
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chriskoz at 11:33 AM on 3 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
MA Rodger@9,
[Ask them, 'skeptics':] could they explain why the oceans are so cold? The air above has an average temperature of about 14ºC and the rocks beneath sit on the planet's core with a temperature of 5,000ºC. So why are the oceans only 1ºC?
I'm not an expert oceanographer, so before I ask, I'd like to know the detailed asnwer. My current knowledge is as shallow as freshwater reservoirs (small lakes), where water stratification is determined by its density:
with the consequence that bottom water never falls below 4C (most dense water sinks to the bottom) allowing e.g. fish to survive in winter because the lake freezes from the top only.
In slatwater however, the playground determining stratification is different:
which means saltwater becomes heavier all the way to the freezing point. That can mean for example that in cold ocean, i.e. in the arctics, water can freeze from the bottom (and then lighter ice shunks float up to the surface) but haven't I heard of such phenomenon yet? That's perhaps because bottom ocean water does not go all the way to freezing point but just to 1C, as you said...
I understand that bottom ocean does not equilibrate with 5000C of Earth crust because of slow mixing with colder water coming from arctic, as explained by michael sweet@11, thanks!. I presume siad mixing is the slow deep ocean mixing with an overturning rate of ~1-2ky, according to my current knowledge, please confirm or correct me. So, is 1C temp of bottom ocean a "sweet equilibrium spot" of sinking and mixing processes involved?
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Bert from Eltham at 11:27 AM on 3 February 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #5
The Anti Vaccine protagonists are just as deluded as the anti Global Warming protagonists. Both have no scientific evidence to back up their very internally contradictory claims.
The claim that 'secret' compounds cause the multiplicity of syndromes that these nutters assert, is completely laughable.
Next they will assert that the lack of a compound has an effect just like that of Homeopathy. Bert
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grindupBaker at 10:18 AM on 3 February 2014Global warming is being caused by humans, not the sun, and is highly sensitive to CO2, new research shows
The NOAA NCDC site lists 2013 monthly GMST as 12.54, 12.67, 12.88, 14.22, 15.46, 16.14, 16.41, 16.22, 15.64, 14.63, 13.68 & 12.84 which averages 14.44 by equal monthly weighting or 14.45 weighting by the number of days in each month, but the 2013 annual GMST is given as 14.52. I don't see how that difference can be reconciled.
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Daniel Bailey at 08:03 AM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
First of all, copying the work of others (as you do) without the usage of quotes is considered plagiarism, FYI. The only remaining question is whether you copied it from Wiki or one of the many denier sites parroting that phrase.
Further, I see no mention in the BAS site of the phrase you use. Feel free to look yourself.
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davidsanger at 07:53 AM on 3 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
@SimplyConcerned. thanks that's really very clear now. And I also agree with you and JH about the overall civility of this site, at least in my experience and from what I've read so far.
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Vonnegut at 07:30 AM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
Climate models predict more snowfall than ice melting during the next 50 years, but models are not good enough for them to be confident about the prediction.
The British Antarctic survey team confirm this but their site is down at the moment
Moderator Response:[TD] Part of the answer is that the smaller the geographic region, the more difficult it is to project its climate. The whole globe is easier than any subregion of the globe. That's because difficult-to-predict factors regionally, tend to cancel out those same factors in other regions. This difficulty of projecting at short geographic scales is similar to the difficulty of projecting at short time scales--even when the "region" is the whole globe. See the post The Difference Between Weather and Climate. See also the National Academy of Sciences' excellent series of short videos, Climate Modeling 101.
For a given size of region, naturally some regions are more difficult to project than others are, but I don't know about the difficulty of Antarctica versus other regions of similar size.
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SimplyConcerned at 06:34 AM on 3 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
@DavidSanger and others.... part of the discussion/questions about thermal expansion at low temperatures in the deep ocean is missing the key point that saltwater behaves very differently from freshwater. Freshwater has a maximum density at c. 4 C. Seawater does not: its density increases right down to the freezing point which is typically c. -1.8 C.
So even though the thermal expansion coefficient for saltwater does decrease slightly as seawater approaches its freezing point, there is absolutely no doubt that adding heat to ocean deepwater will result in thermal expansion.
I've just joined this blog and I really like the fact that people debate and ask reasonable, critical questions but without calling each other names. The contrast with Judith Curry's blog is very evident.
Moderator Response:[JH] Welcome aboard and thank you for the kind words about the civility of our dsicussion threads. We take great pride in that. We also work very hard to ensure that all commenters strictly adhere to the SkS Comments Policy.
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Vonnegut at 05:12 AM on 3 February 2014Models are unreliable
Could anyone explain why Antarctic climate models would be harder to get right than full global climate models?
Moderator Response:[DB] Please support your assertion with a link to a credible source establishing that claim.
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william5331 at 05:04 AM on 3 February 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #5
Does anyone out there have the patience to make up a chart. Down the left side would be the names of all the prominent climate change deniers including politicians. Across the top would be labels for columns such as "Was a tobacco advocate", "is anti-vaccine", "Is a creationist* and so forth. A little star would be put in the appropriate boxes. It would be interesting to have this sketch of the previous history of the CCD's
Moderator Response:[JH] Your concern is duly noted.
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michael sweet at 02:44 AM on 3 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
David Sanger,
Some of the behaviour of the ocean is not intuitive because the immense size of the ocean dwarfs peoples normal sense of how things behave. If a two liter soda bottle expands 1/10,000 of its volume from a change in temperature, you would be hard pressed to measure it. If the deep ocean (over 4,000 meters) expands a similar amount, that is 40+ cm of sea level rise. Even very small changes in ocean volume add up to a lot of sea level rise. When the ocean shifts, even a little, people next to the ocean must be wary.
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davidsanger at 01:59 AM on 3 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
grindupBaker@35 Rob Painting@37 Thanks. So it sounds like even though at sea level freshwater at 4º or less does not expand when heated, that with the salinity and higher pressure, the deep ocean below 700m is actually expanding as it heats and thus adding a little to searise.
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Vonnegut at 01:51 AM on 3 February 2014There is no consensus
Is there any hope of getting the true facts bout the mythical 97% like just how many climate scientists there are and which way they voted?
Moderator Response:[JH] Read Skeptical Science Study Finds 97% Consensus on Human-Caused Global Warming in the Peer-Reviewed Literature. if you have further questions on this topic, post them there.
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DavidFaubion at 01:30 AM on 3 February 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #5
> Climate and vaccine deniers are the same: beyond persuasion, by Clive Hamilton
The author's argument compares apples and cauliflower. The site proctor ought to remove the piece for that reason and others. The piece uses the same old divisive us and them mentality. It attacks what the author of it has to rely upon his own source to prove; thus, the piece has a gratuitous sense implied onto it. The piece distracts us as it reduces the site to a tabloid or at best a newspaper opinion column. In fact, the site would do well to leave out all mention and attention to the climate denying minuscule minority and their personality disorders.
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Vonnegut at 01:25 AM on 3 February 2014CO2 is coming from the ocean
But Oceans outgas co2 also where does this fit in the equation?
Moderator Response:[TD] The exchange rates of CO2 going in and coming out of the oceans are known, along with the factors that influence those two rates. The net effect currently still is much more going in that coming out. See installment 9 of the OA is Not OK series.
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michael sweet at 00:21 AM on 3 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
The argument that the warming of the deep ocean is heat removed from the system is obviously bunkum. Where do you think the energy that is currently melting the bottom of Antarctic Ice cap and Greenland is coming from? Warmer water at depths of 500-2000 meters. Upwelling water in various locations, including the west coast of North America (thats the USA) will be warmed from this absorbtion of energy. If the upwelling water is warmer, that will result in more warming of the adjacent land. It may be decades or centuries before the final effect is felt from this warming, but the upwelling water is warmer now than it was 50 years ago from this effect. It is simply false to claim that the heat is gone.
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michael sweet at 00:20 AM on 3 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
Vonnegut:
The ocean is cold because cold water is denser than warm water. Cold water forms in the Arctic and Antarctic regions and sinks to the bottom. More warm water from the tropics flows at the surfce to the poles where it cools and sinks. This cold polar water eventually returns to the surface in a variety of different ways. The density difference between cold, salty bottom water and the warm surface prevent effective mixing. This is basic High School Science, no need to ask the experts.
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Vonnegut at 23:03 PM on 2 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
Nobody is arguing that the heat sequestered in the deep ocean will suddenly return to the surface. Some fraction of it, from the upper ocean, may reappear as an El Niño event, but some is irreversibly mixed and forms part of the inevitable warming and equilibration of the ocean to a warming climate.
So what is the big issue?
I would suggest the best approach would be to ask that, given these folk are so well informed about how the oceans operate, could they explain why the oceans are so cold? The air above has an average temperature of about 14ºC and the rocks beneath sit on the planet's core with a temperature of 5,000ºC. So why are the oceans only 1ºC?If the experts dont know why, why should anyone else?
Moderator Response:[JH] Please lose the sarcastic tone.
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chriskoz at 20:41 PM on 2 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
grindupBaker@36,
Which lecture by Dan Lubin are you referring to? Is it related to the latest dark snow project by Jason Box? Is Dan's research indeed new, not considered by AR5?
In any case, I disagree it would have 'deserved its own line'. Perhaps it is already factored in 'cloud adjustment' component, because I see that component changed from -0.7 in AR4 to -0.55 in AR5...
However this can be OT here so I if you want further discussion maybe it should be moved to another thread.
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MA Rodger at 20:25 PM on 2 February 2014Corrections to Curry's Erroneous Comments on Ocean Heating
I reckon that invoking the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics within climatology is aboutas daft as invoking Newton's 3rd Law within road safety. I assume Judy Curry considers herself an 'expert' on thermodynamics becasue she understands it beter than the Skydragon Slayers, a bunch of grade-A air-heads who make a great deal of the 2nd Law & who Curry has crossed swords with in the past.
Curry usually adds the 'if it's well mixed' caveat to her assertion which is strange because the deep ocean isn't well mixed. I understand this is mostly due to the isostatic pressure being the major factor in the ocean's density profile resulting in a lot of stratification. (Note that inlike the one here, a lot of 'density v depth' graphs ignore the isostatic element.)
It is also strange that Curry, a strong believer in big natural variation, is here dismissing the role of the deep oceans in such variation.mgardner @7.
The denialist argument that deep ocean warming is harmless - Beyond ENSO as per @8, I would suggest the best approach would be to ask that, given these folk are so well informed about how the oceans operate, could they explain why the oceans are so cold? The air above has an average temperature of about 14ºC and the rocks beneath sit on the planet's core with a temperature of 5,000ºC. So why are the oceans only 1ºC?
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chriskoz at 20:07 PM on 2 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
Tom@33,
You convinced me that the number we've looked at (0.3W/m2/decade) can be overestimated: the data we've considered confirms your conclusion. Indeed, using the Foster and Rahmstorf figures is more appropriate in my method @29 and leads to a lower value, thanks for pointing that.
Re my integrity: thanks. All I care about is the correctness of science. That's an obvious bottom line all users of this blog should follow.
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Rob Painting at 16:55 PM on 2 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
David Sanger @ 34 - though not negligible, only a small amount of warming is occurring below the 2000 metre depth. For the effects of warming on the expansion of seawater for 0-700 & 0-2000 metre depth ranges, see the image below from the National Oceanographic Data Center (NODC).
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rajeshagarwal at 15:48 PM on 2 February 2014There is no consensus
Following on 581 Steve B, I would like to know how many of the abstracts explicitly endorse that humans caused most of the global warming? From what I understand of the data, there were only 75 such abstracts. Correct me if I am wrong. I am a newbie and not terribly scientific, but I understand numbers. Would someone care to explain?
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grindupBaker at 15:41 PM on 2 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
KR #22 chriskoz #29 I see histogram graphs show net aerosol -ve forcing. I found Dr. Dan Lubin lecture interesting. He says aerosols constrained in Arctic through winter by Polar Night Jet alter clouds to give a forcing of +3.4 w/m**2. If he means from latitude 70N (he doesn't say) at 6% of Earth surface that would be +0.20 w/m**2 of aerosol forcing which I would have thought deserved its own line because of its contrary effect to aerosols elsewhere.
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grindupBaker at 15:13 PM on 2 February 2014Warming oceans consistent with rising sea level & global energy imbalance
davidsanger #34 I made the same mistake 4 weeks ago because I just assumed salt water and pressure have negligible effect, but they have important effect. I found variation in quoted numbers and not a full set, but roughly I found like:
Volumetric thermal expansion coefficient of sea water (various salinities) at atmospheric pressure
Pure 20 25 30 35 40
H2O ---- grams salt / kg -----
Volumetric coefficient γ at 25 °C (*10**−6/K) 264 270 278 282 288 **
Volumetric coefficient γ at 20 °C (*10**−6/K) 207 241 248 256 263 270
At 4,000m depth pressure at 20 °C 280
Volumetric coefficient γ at 15 °C (*10**−6/K) 192 201 211 221 230
Volumetric coefficient γ at 10 °C (*10**−6/K) 88 136 148 160 171 182
Volumetric coefficient γ at 5 °C (*10**−6/K) 15 73 88 101 115 128
Volumetric coefficient γ at 0 °C (*10**−6/K) -67 40 56 70 84/52 100 **
At 4,000m depth pressure at 0 °C 130
** Very approximate because do not have values above/below. At a depth of 4000 m the bottom water (about 0 °C, salinity 35 g kg−1)My table format didn't align in this post. Bottom line is that thermal expansion coefficient is +ve, even below 0C.
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