Arguments
Video: The Path Post-Paris
Posted on 13 September 2017 by greenman3610
This is a re-post from Climate Denial Crock of the Week
Experts outline the increasing momentum that the renewable economy is gaining, despite Republican efforts to deny climate science and keep the US from leading the greatest industrial revolution of the new century.
I spoke to veteran journalist Keith Schneider, one of the sharpest and most perceptive observers of the renewable scene globally, as well as Dan Kammen of the University of California, Berkeley, and Andy Hoffman at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan.
The cost of offshore wind farms has dropped dramatically in the United Kingdom, and electricity from these is cheaper than the proposed Hinkley nuclear plant as below:
www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/11/huge-boost-renewable-power-offshore-windfarm-costs-fall-record-low
From the third paragraph of nigelj's link-
Is it really that cost competitive if the government has to offer real cash subsidies?
Tom@13
Yes wind power receives subsidies of tens of millions of pounds. Henchley nuclear station is to be subsidised by 30 billion pounds as below from The Financial Times, paid for by consumers.
www.ft.com/content/b8e24306-48e5-11e6-8d68-72e9211e86ab
Nigelj -
What happens to the economic viability of wind once the subsidies stop?
Tom @13
"What happens to the economic viability of wind once the subsidies stop?"
Solar renewable energy is already economically viable without subsidies.
www.deutschebank.nl/nl/docs/Solar_-_2014_Outlook_Let_the_Second_Gold_Rush_Begin.pdf
qz.com/871907/2016-was-the-year-solar-panels-finally-became-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-just-wait-for-2017/
Wind energy is close to economcially viable without subsidies as below. So theres no real problem.
www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/us-energy-secretary-solar-and-wind-energy-cost-competitive-without-subsidies.html
However subsidies would still be useful to encourage these things.
You need to also appreciate many countries subsidise coal and nuclear. What happens when that stops?
You also need to appreciate these economic "comparisons" are only on market prices etc, and dont include the damaging affects of buring coal and the risks of nuclear energy (although I dont toally oppose nuclear energy).
The field is changing fast. Costs of renewable energy are dropping fast with or without subsidies. Its an amazing thing and I didn't expect it.
Tom13@4 said: "What happens to the economic viability of wind once the subsidies stop?" Go ahead and claim, right now, that nuclear power has never been subsidized. For example, are they, even today after trillions of dollars of public development spending, privately insured? I'm pro-nuclear, but come on: Nuclear is the poster-child for government spending. And fossils gets to stand 'on its own two feet' merely because they get to dump the consequences of their waste products on the heads of our children... free of charge. Put all that into your thinking, and wind starts looking pretty competitive.
Wind power is nuclear power, btw. It's driven by a nuclear fusion reaction occuring 9 light-minutes sunward of your current position.
No subsidies on wind here (NZ) and yet windfarms are built and make money. Of course, no subsidies on fossil fuels either. Why not just stop the subsidies on all forms of generation completely and let the market see what is economical? Of course, it would be even better if appropriate mechanisms were in place to ensure the cost of externalities were covered. FF looks a lot less attractive then.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivanpah_Solar_Power_Facility
Ivanpah is a good example of solar power and the economics.
So Tom13, what in your opinion makes this a "good" example? It is one of less than 100 CSP plants worldwide, one of only 30 with 100MW. Did you look for the most troubled?
Are you looking for an answer to question on possibililities for economic carbon-free power? - or flailing about trying to find arguments to support a pre-determined position because frankly that is how your commentary reads so far.
www.nzx.com/companies/NWF/announcements/306186
See the linke to the audited financial statements for the fiscal years ended June 30, 2017 and 2016
Scaddeenp -
Are wind farms in NZ really making money?
I pulled up the the audited financial statements for NZ windfarms limited
Inception to date loss of $46m as of june 2017.
Employee costs running at 40% of gross revenue, (not what would be considered efficient use of human resources)
Depreciable lives of 25-40 years when the real economic life is closer to 15-18 years, recorded impairment of almost half the cost.
Tom13@11
"Are wind farms in NZ really making money?I pulled up the the audited financial statements for NZ windfarms limitedInception to date loss of $46m as of june 2017."
Its absurd to quote one wind farm making a loss for one year as if this means anything, or that the sector is unprofitable. NZ Wind Farms are only one wind farm at Te Rere, and far from the largest. NZ has approx. 20 wind farms with various owners.
The following research from Deloitte finds wind power is economic in NZ.
img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1104/economicsnz.pdf
Tom13@11, correction to my comment above, NZ Wind Farms has had several years of losses and is well known as a troubled company. You have picked the worst example. You cannot make an argument on one example.
Tom13,
Extracting and burning up non-renewable buried ancient hydrocarbons will undeniably become 'less possible'. As the easier to obtain resource is burned up future attempts to continue the activity become less viable.
Even today it is not possibe for everyone to 'advance to the level of burning benefited from by the more fortunate portion of humanity'. And massive vicious wars are waged between powers trying to be the 'biggest winners of that understandably unsustainable and damaging activity'
In addition to the reality the unsustainability of already very fortunate people trying to benefit more from burning fossil fuels, there is the undeiable matter of the impacts created. These impacts are suffered by people who do not recieve significant benefits (populations that suffer current day climate change impacts and the future generations).
Before talking about the comparable costs of different sources of energy, it is necessary to first ensure that the more damaging and ultimately unsustainable options are eliminated from the set of "Acceptable Alternatives". The marketplace does not 'naturally' do that. That is why responsible regulation is required, external constraints imposed by Leaders in business and government who are "... moved by rational consideration of distant motives" (as major writer regarding the pursuit of Liberty, John Stuart Mill, would say).
Tom13 seems very keen on cherry picks. "Interesting" way to evaluate data. That said, last few years have been tough for wind with plenty of hydro capacity and even more geothermal online since 2013. Dry conditions this year should improve things. However, increasing population and the switch to electric cars make it a pretty safe financial bet for the future.