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Comments 112701 to 112750:

  1. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    @doug_bostrom at 04:16 AM on 14 August, 2010 Unfortunately I can not access the full article, I also noticed this article is published 2006 and obviously they can not have any opinion in that paper whether last winter was due to climate or weather or even if it was extreme – if you ask me I wouldn' t say it was extreme more like winters used to be 15-20 years ago about. Anywat, that does not matter. What I am asking for is statements from official institute about what have happen, that is I am not asking for predictions but explanations. Like the one that has been made about the current wild fires in Russia and flooding in Pakistan as contrary to explanation made before about extreme weather phenomena - these has been explained as variation in weather and nothing more, however variations that we can suspect to see much more often – the difference now is that this latest explanation seams to claim that climate change is a direct cause (and I think such strong claims never been made before, has it?) Secondly since this winter was a mess and is directly related to this summer it falls natural to ask the question – was this winter also due to a climate effect or was it just natural variations?
  2. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Batsvennson: Doug Bostrom posted these national records from this year on an earlier thread. So many hot records have been set this month that it may no longer be up to date. There are 17 national hot records so far this year and one (1) cold record. This winter was cold in Europe (and parts of the US), but not record cold. A lot of snow is not the same as record cold. Global warming models show more precipitation and in the winter that comes as snow. Maybe the snow plow crews were not ready for the snow because there has been so little snow in recent years. Perhaps they no longer can clear snow that they could clear 30 years ago when it was colder. The trends are for warmer winters, this was a cold dip. David, It seems as soon as one argument is shown to be false they make up a new one. The surface record drum no longer beats so loud but they find something new. I think this summer will start to tip more people. If I were the commander of Afganistan I would be worried to see all those people homeless in Pakistan-- some of them will go to Afganistan and fight. The military has to plan for the future.
  3. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Yep, and obviously it is because of this increased weight on earth, by all the fat people, that sea levels are rising.
    No, no, the earth's crust is being compressed by all that extra weight, making the sea *appear* to rise!
  4. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    I woke up a bit depressed and this thread certainly tips me into very depressed. In Deniaworld it seems there is no measurement, no series of measurements; no extreme unprecedented weather event, no series of such events; no series of different extreme events in different regions; no record high temperatures, no series of record temperatures; no changes in species distributions or breeding patterns; no changes in ocean acidity: there is nothing, literally nothing that can't be arbitrarily dismissed, "explained" away by appeal to anecdote or bizarre physical mechanism or conspiracy or simultaneous unlikely technological failure or extremely improbably statistical anomaly. The result , if these people had their way, is that we on this little planet would sit idly by watching the climate change rapidly and soon irreversibly, all the while wondering what on Earth global warming would look like.
  5. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    RSVP, at 04:52 AM on 14 August, 2010 There was some cold record broken this last winter. For instance I believed they registered a new lowest temperature in Scotland this winter (around -20C) and as well longest period of a cold snap (but that I will leave unsaid). What the mean temp for the period is I dont know, but think it was "normal". Nor do I know if the precipitation was any bigger than normal. However, when consider Europe, there was some pretty long persistent cold snaps last winter and there was more precipitation coming down as snow than "normal" causing complete chaos in the traffic situations all over Europe. Peopel was asked to stay at home or avoid public transport as public transport was canceled or stopped for several days due to cold and snow. I also think airports also was closed down when it was at worst but cant remember for sure. But I do know in the UK they did closed down all public education for a while when the snowing was at worst and they was not able to keep the roads clean of snow. Many countries had problem with salt stocks running low – salt to keep the roads free of ice. And when it was at coldest there was no use at all to salt but only plow and sand the roads - those road they had time to plow that is. There was real worries about salt stocks would deplete. Since snow plowing was not able to keep up a lot people got their cars trapped in the snow due to this - people was asked to stay home. As a result emergency service had more incidents calls and elder was not able to get public service due to sever traffic disruption etc, etc, you name it. In short last winter was a big mess and I just wonder if there is any finding that tells whether this mess last winter was due to climate or to weather?
  6. 1934 - hottest year on record
    "What your references have in common Broadlands is that they're all at least 34 years old." Doug... The fact that they are "at least 34 years old" should not change their values unidirectionally. Why should thermometers at least 34 years ago have measured higher temperatures most of which seem to have required lowering? Some specific examples. According to NCDC 1895-2009 in North Carolina it was 60°F in 1900 and 59°F in 2009... the two are essentially the same. No statistical difference, no warming or cooling. A level trend for 114 years. In 1921 it was 61°F in NC according to the NCDC and it was 61.0°F according to the US Weather Bureau's reports. Maybe a 0.1 degree difference... easily within expected variability.. No problem. No corrections? BUT... in other states? Official weighted Weather Bureau data list Arizona in 1921 at 61.6°F and Idaho at 46.5°F. The NCDC 1895-2009? Arizona in 1921: 59.4°F, 2.2°F lower. Idaho in 1921: 44.9°F, 1.6°F lower. Were the thermometers in 1921 that bad in AZ and ID? I will write again to NCDC. BTW, do you know what the temperature of the northern hemisphere was in 2009?
  7. Berényi Péter at 05:55 AM on 14 August 2010
    Three new studies illustrate significant risks and complications with geoengineering climate
    #45 batsvensson at 04:20 AM on 14 August, 2010 Well Lewis, we will all look forward to see you and your familly be the first to move in to these spot where they plans to put these SO2 exhaust plants Don't worry. China takes care of the SO2 exhaust plant program just fine. Her altruism borders self-sacrifice.
  8. actually thoughtful at 05:45 AM on 14 August 2010
    NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Pete Ridley, others who would claim there is no trend in the trend: Can you explain why NONE of the zigs or zags take us back to below an arbitrary zero line of 1960-1990 (or pick any other 30 year period that excludes the 2000s)? If this is all random, natural, modulating behavior, isn't it necessary to spend some time BELOW the zero line?
  9. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    fydijkstra if you read a little more carefully you'll see "This is what global warming looks like" are the words of NOAA-GISS, not John Cook. The 12 month running average was not invented for the purpose of presenting this year's weather; your eagerness to invent and then run with that notion is quite remarkable. And of course decades of running averages pointed in the same direction contain some thought-provoking information.
  10. On Statistical Significance and Confidence
    Berenyi Peter #54, I know at least one statistician who would love to get his hands around a problem like that and who would not walk away with "There's no unique solution, anyway"!!! :))
  11. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Why all of the excitement about weather events? You may be interested in the comments a Russian scientist about the unusual (but not unheard of) weather presently being experienced in western Russia. “Russian Scientist: Extreme Central Russian Heat Wave Not An Indication Of A Future Climate Catastrophe By P Gosselin on 12. August 2010” (Note 1) QUOTE: Time to calm down everybody. .. Michail Kabanov, corresponding member of the Academy of Sciences and advisor of the Institute For Climate And Environmental Monitoring. .. Deviations in one direction or the other, in this region or the other, are explained completely by the instability of the climate system. It meanders constantly and reaches various anomalies as a result, and does include extremes. The weather conditions of this year are precisely a result of this. Scientists must still determine if this anomaly is part of a trend in one direction, i.e. global warming, or if it’s just another climate fluctuation says the scientist. According to Ria Novosti: The earth also experienced climate warming in the past, which was then followed by cooling. The question is: To what extent does the anthropogenic factor effect the fluctuations? Kabanow says the current drought is not the start of a future catastrophe. Rather it is simply one extreme event that rarely occurs. Michail Kabanow also says the thawing of the permafrost also poses no threat to man. The permafrost has been thawing since the last ice age 10,000 years ago. The rate of thawing is by no means catastrophic. The expert sees no approaching global catastrophe UNQUOTE.. Note 1) see http://notrickszone.com/2010/08/12/russian-scientist-extreme-central-russian-heat-wave-not-an-indication-of-a-future-climate-change/ Best regards, Pete Ridley
  12. Of satellites and temperatures
    Doug Bostrom, thanks for the reminder of that investigation into the annual cycle in UAH. I think the other problem with that discussion at Watts's site is the analysis of 5-year (!) trends in the difference between RSS and GISS. Those fluctuate around a lot -- over the past few decades, they've ranged from GISS warming faster by +0.03C/decade to RSS warming faster by +0.03C/decade. In other words, you can pick five-year intervals to show either one "diverging" from the other ... but they keep converging again. As noted above, over the entire 1979-present interval RSS and GISS both have a warming of +0.16C/decade
  13. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    The present situation with floods in Central Europe and Pakistan and wildfires in Portugal and Russia strongly reminds me of 2005, when many people thought that global warming was to blame for the extreme hurricane season. Even some IPCC members declared global warming to be the culprit. In later years this soon was shown to be wrong. At the moment we have already seen several years with extremely low hurricane activity. The IPCC has learnt its lesson from 2005. So far we have not yet heard any false attribution claims for the present disasters, but John Cook thinks, that this is what global warming looks like. I think, that we can wait for the next few years to come without fires and floods, so that global warming again will be exonerated. An interesting feature in this article is figure 2: the 12-month running average of the temperature. Maybe I have not read the right papers, but so far I have never seen this indicator before. Was it really necessary to invent this indicator, now that the 2010 El Niño is over, and the average of 2010 as a whole will probably not break the 1998 record? Please, remember, that 12 months is a completely irrelevant interval in climate science. The climate is the average of 30 years of weather.
  14. actually thoughtful at 04:52 AM on 14 August 2010
    NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Doug - great article, interesting perspective. I will use the 2:1 ratio in discussions with skeptics. Another twine in the massive AGW rope!
  15. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    batsvensson #29 Sorry. I overlooked you specifying winter, but was it actually a colder winter or just one with more precipitation?
  16. Of satellites and temperatures
    Sorry, Berényi Péter. Let's see: TLT uses AMSU-A channel 5, which as you can see is quite close to MSU channel 2. "Rotate with scan angle" refers to fact that the plane of polarization changes as the instrument scans back and forth perpendicular to the nadir line. Bandwidths for AMSU are here, along with a great deal of additional information that might be of interest. Bandwidths for MSU are here.
  17. Of satellites and temperatures
    Doug Proctor, that situation has been superseded by events. There was no genuine physical basis for longitudinal drift between the various measurements, or that is to say the drift was down to an error in satellite data analysis. See this for a narrative of what happened. Some remarks by Dr. Spencer are here. Another "leaping to conclusions" moment, one of many. I'm surprised Watts has not amended that article so as not to continue propagating an incorrect impression.
  18. Berényi Péter at 04:41 AM on 14 August 2010
    Of satellites and temperatures
    #10 Ned at 03:48 AM on 14 August, 2010 BP, this chart compares the bands on MSU and AMSU instruments. Thanks.
    MSU 253.74 GHz (5.58 mm)
    AMSU-A 553.60 GHz (5.59 mm)
    AMSU-B 5176.3 GHz & 190.3 GHz (dual channel)
     (1.7 mm & 1.58 mm)
     All of these rotate with scan angle, whatever that means. I still don't know the bandwidths and whether TLT uses AMSU-A or AMSU-B.
  19. Of satellites and temperatures
    Also, Doug Proctor, if you're interested in the accuracy of surface temperature records, you might want to check out another recent thread: Assessing global surface temperature reconstructions
  20. Of satellites and temperatures
    Doug Proctor, actually the RSS satellite temperature trend is rather similar to the various surface trends over the same time period: Trends 1979-present NASA GISS: +0.16 C/decade HADCRUT: +0.16 C/decade NOAA NCDC: +0.16 C/decade RSS TLT: +0.16 C/decade UAH LT: +0.14 C/decade The only outlier is UAH, which is slightly lower than the others.
  21. Three new studies illustrate significant risks and complications with geoengineering climate
    @LewisC at 22:39 PM on 8 August, 2010 Well Lewis, we will all look forward to see you and your familly be the first to move in to these spot where they plans to put these SO2 exhaust plants. Good luck with your new home.
  22. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Bat, w/regard to cold air outbreaks see this article which interestingly enough refers to changes in "blocking," the same issue apparently contributing to extreme weather in Russia this summer: The behavior of extreme cold air outbreaks under greenhouse warming
  23. Of satellites and temperatures
    Thanks BP and Ned. So TLT is roughly equivalent to AMSU-A 5. Frequencies are similar. A chunk of air far wider than the surface standard measurment.
  24. Of satellites and temperatures
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/18/giss-divergence-with-satellite-temperatures-since-the-start-of-2003/ For the satellite/Hansen data divergence, check this out. Both the UAH and the RSS data show divergence with the GISS/NOAA ground station ADJUSTED temperature stations. GISS/Hansen has serious warming going on. About 0.3C* of it, out of 0.7C*. This makes the global warming part of the 1850-1982 "normal" warming, not the pCO2 induced hyperbole.
  25. On Statistical Significance and Confidence
    @barry at 13:56 PM on 13 August, 2010 Why are all the lines crossing at the same(?) point at about 1935?
  26. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    @RSVP, at 02:48 AM on 14 August, 2010 RSVP, I do not follow you, the volcano eruption came early this summer and can not possible have affected last winter. Therefore I do not understand the relevance of your comment to my question.
  27. Berényi Péter at 03:51 AM on 14 August 2010
    On Statistical Significance and Confidence
    #53 tobyjoyce at 03:12 AM on 14 August, 2010 there is software that will fit as many as you like I happen to know the algorithm itself, which is pretty straightforward. But what's the point of this exercise? There is no unique solution to this problem anyway. And tails do matter. Those are the parts of weather that can get costly (both in terms of money and human lives).
  28. Of satellites and temperatures
    BP, this chart compares the bands on MSU and AMSU instruments.
  29. Berényi Péter at 03:41 AM on 14 August 2010
    Of satellites and temperatures
    #7 Alexandre at 03:14 AM on 14 August, 2010 How high is this layer?
    It is channel TLT (Temperature Lower Troposphere, MSU 2 and AMSU 5). It's up to about 5 km, but the intensity measured by the satellite in this band also depends on absorptivity of the layers above (e.g. clouds, humidity, aerosols, etc.) and vertical temperature distribution. I don't know the actual frequencies and bandwidths. Anyone?
  30. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    If one compare figure 1 with the areas of upwelling it seams like there is relation between heating and upwelling areas. Is this observation correct?
  31. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    re Thingadonta "You refer to a comment above-global warming makes more rain and worse droughts, but you cant have it both ways..." Then you fail to understand the nature of energy and the impacts it has on weather and climate. You get rain because of an energy input, that is how the water gets into the atmosphere to create rain. Increased energy indeed does result in worse rain, drought and more wind. The fact is mate, if you have more energy in a system and it is unevenly distributed, you can expect a lot strange stuff happening to the weather.
  32. More evidence than you can shake a hockey stick at
    The cyclicity of H2O evaporating or sublimating into the atmosphere, then recondensing as liquid or solid is why water is not regarded as a forcing in climate warming. The time period for this cycle is measured in terms of days and the net energy balance is zero. To my understanding enhanced greenhouse warming is driven primarily by the enhanced absorption of IR radiation by the increasing quantities of GHGs in the atmosphere, especially CO2 & CH4, plus the additional water vapor content due to warming (i.e. the notorious, and still disputed, water vapor "feedback"). Water vapor feedback is complicated by the fact that water vapor can condense to solid or liquid to form clouds, which have their own characteristics in terms of absorption or reflection of incident radiation. It was my impression that the water vapor you were discussing is the incremental quantity that has been added to the atmosphere (on average) due to net warming of the atmosphere due to higher concentration of GHGs, which I still believe is negligible. Perhaps you could offer some quantitative support for whatever is your position on this. Better yet would be to cite a source in the peer-reviewed literature.
  33. Of satellites and temperatures
    Thank you, Ned! For folks interested in learning more about the NOAA constellation: The National Environmental Satellite, Data, and Information Service (NESDIS) (complete information on orbiters including systems and subsystem status) NOAA Satellite Services Division (quick data product access) NOAA's "Satellites" page (a potpourri of links to satellite-related NOAA pages) NOAA "Image of the Day" (just for fun) Or, depend for information on websites making such broad and surprising remarks as "Official weather forecasting hasn’t improved since it began and is of insufficient accuracy to be useful."
  34. Of satellites and temperatures
    I assume those sattellite data we see around are usually the channel 04 - near surface layer. How high is this layer? How does it compare to the standard surface measurements like NCDC´s?
  35. On Statistical Significance and Confidence
    BP #52, I said "approximated", and there is software that will fit as many as you like (a finite number, obviously). There may even be an R package that does it. In many cases, tails (which contain the low probabilities) may not be important.
  36. Of satellites and temperatures
    Anybody remember the boy who cried wolf?
    Well, science denialism is more like crying "sheep" when there's a wolf at the door ...
  37. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    batvensson 22 We did have volcano erupting Iceland. Now was the volcano, or the fact that there were all those canceled flights spewing less CO2.
  38. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Rick1521 wrote : "The UHI effect can easily explain the change in record highs and lows." Easily ? I don't think so, unless you can provide evidence that goes against these studies : On the reliability of the U.S. surface temperature record 3.2.2.2 Urban Heat Islands and Land Use Effects Urban Heat Island Assessment: Metadata Are Important Perhaps Watts has finally brought that paper of his out ?
  39. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    And global warming afterall is quite subjective. Note the article... "we're looking at a system with enormous inertia" enormous interia? or simple ultra-stable and slow in changing giving the impression of enormous inertia. Does this mean a supernova has no inertia, since it disintegrates in three days?
  40. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Eric yes record high minimums are recorded and as predicted are rising. Probably more important is the general upward drift of nighttime minimum. Because of the nature of GHGs increasing nighttime minimum temperatures are a very useful confirmation of GHG forcing. Another statistical way of looking at weather. Asymmetric Trends of Daily Maximum and Minimum Temperature Maximum and Minimum Temperature Trends for the Globe Global warming: Evidence for asymmetric diurnal temperature change Asymmetric diurnal temperature change in the Alpine region
  41. Hockey stick is broken
    All of the threads from before March or so of this year are gone at Tamino's site. It's a huge loss, as there was a lot of very good information there.
  42. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Is there any findings on whether the unusual cold winter in Europe and US of A this year can be attributed to weather or climate?
  43. Hockey stick is broken
    John, I don't know what's happening with Tamino's blog, but links are not working anymore. Fortunately internet archive keeps his blog until the end of 2008. Here is the link for the post not alike.
  44. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Perhaps the people in Indonesia are very thin, so it just feels cooler than it really is :)
  45. Alden Griffith at 02:10 AM on 14 August 2010
    Of satellites and temperatures
    Also, UAH and RSS don't use MSU data from NOAA-16 anymore: http://www.remss.com/msu/msu_data_description.html#rss_msu_data_analysis ftp://ghrc.nsstc.nasa.gov/pub/data/msu/t2lt/readme.13Apr2010 (scroll to Dec 2006 updates) It's unbelievable how little it takes for some people to cry foul. I think we should compile a list of all the times that accusations of "conspiracy" and "fraud" have been shown to be either completely baseless or of little significance. Anybody remember the boy who cried wolf? -Alden
  46. Of satellites and temperatures
    So, now that Spencer and Christy have corrected the errors in the UAH satellite record so that it no longer shows cooling, the "skeptics", who were formerly deeply enamored of the UAH satellite data, are now claiming satellite data may be unreliable. I'm shocked, shocked!
  47. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Just a small comment on the UHI theme: It is just one reason to be very careful using max/min temperatures for climate indications. If, the variance increases with greater forcing (and, probably, mean temperature), it is the exact shape of the tails of the temperature distributions that determine the records, and they may actually go off in either or both directions without that much happening to the mean. Sampling, for instance, the highest and lowest 5% of all measurements, could give more robust measures. And then, UHI and other effects would play a lesser role.
  48. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Thingadonta, Can you refer to a measured temperature record that confirms what you claim? The graph you refer to is from measured data. Your claim (from only 12 months experience!) that "locals say" is what we call anecdotal. Since actual temperature records exist everywhere, it would be more convincing if you cited those instead. You might learn that it really is warmer where you are when you check! The data to support the graph is GISS data page here. You can probably find a local source of the data if you look.
  49. NASA-GISS: July 2010-- What global warming looks like
    Rick1521, do you think the UHI effect in Oklahoma City explains the magenta color over Russia? Can you explain how?
  50. Has Global Warming Stopped?
    Pete Ridley: And the upshot of all this is? Please state the relevance, or else go to a place devoted to discussing sensor details. We have had too much of this already. It MAY be important, but every single case I have seen investigated so far (cfr the weather stations) have ended up rather affirming than invalidating the consensus about the temperature series. The main trouble you run into, is that too many independent observations all confirm the same overall picture.
    Moderator Response: You're right that discussion of the technical details of satellite measurement of temperatures is off-topic for this thread. Fortunately, there is a new thread dedicated to clearing up the confusion over this subject: Of satellites and temperatures

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