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The greenhouse effect and the 2nd law of thermodynamics

What the science says...

Select a level... Basic Intermediate

The 2nd law of thermodynamics is consistent with the greenhouse effect which is directly observed.

Climate Myth...

2nd law of thermodynamics contradicts greenhouse theory

 

"The atmospheric greenhouse effect, an idea that many authors trace back to the traditional works of Fourier 1824, Tyndall 1861, and Arrhenius 1896, and which is still supported in global climatology, essentially describes a fictitious mechanism, in which a planetary atmosphere acts as a heat pump driven by an environment that is radiatively interacting with but radiatively equilibrated to the atmospheric system. According to the second law of thermodynamics such a planetary machine can never exist." (Gerhard Gerlich)

 

Skeptics sometimes claim that the explanation for global warming contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. But does it? To answer that, first, we need to know how global warming works. Then, we need to know what the second law of thermodynamics is, and how it applies to global warming. Global warming, in a nutshell, works like this:

The sun warms the Earth. The Earth and its atmosphere radiate heat away into space. They radiate most of the heat that is received from the sun, so the average temperature of the Earth stays more or less constant. Greenhouse gases trap some of the escaping heat closer to the Earth's surface, making it harder for it to shed that heat, so the Earth warms up in order to radiate the heat more effectively. So the greenhouse gases make the Earth warmer - like a blanket conserving body heat - and voila, you have global warming. See What is Global Warming and the Greenhouse Effect for a more detailed explanation.

The second law of thermodynamics has been stated in many ways. For us, Rudolf Clausius said it best:

"Heat generally cannot flow spontaneously from a material at lower temperature to a material at higher temperature."

So if you put something hot next to something cold, the hot thing won't get hotter, and the cold thing won't get colder. That's so obvious that it hardly needs a scientist to say it, we know this from our daily lives. If you put an ice-cube into your drink, the drink doesn't boil!

The skeptic tells us that, because the air, including the greenhouse gasses, is cooler than the surface of the Earth, it cannot warm the Earth. If it did, they say, that means heat would have to flow from cold to hot, in apparent violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

So have climate scientists made an elementary mistake? Of course not! The skeptic is ignoring the fact that the Earth is being warmed by the sun, which makes all the difference.

To see why, consider that blanket that keeps you warm. If your skin feels cold, wrapping yourself in a blanket can make you warmer. Why? Because your body is generating heat, and that heat is escaping from your body into the environment. When you wrap yourself in a blanket, the loss of heat is reduced, some is retained at the surface of your body, and you warm up. You get warmer because the heat that your body is generating cannot escape as fast as before.

If you put the blanket on a tailors dummy, which does not generate heat, it will have no effect. The dummy will not spontaneously get warmer. That's obvious too!

Is using a blanket an accurate model for global warming by greenhouse gases? Certainly there are differences in how the heat is created and lost, and our body can produce varying amounts of heat, unlike the near-constant heat we receive from the sun. But as far as the second law of thermodynamics goes, where we are only talking about the flow of heat, the comparison is good. The second law says nothing about how the heat is produced, only about how it flows between things.

To summarise: Heat from the sun warms the Earth, as heat from your body keeps you warm. The Earth loses heat to space, and your body loses heat to the environment. Greenhouse gases slow down the rate of heat-loss from the surface of the Earth, like a blanket that slows down the rate at which your body loses heat. The result is the same in both cases, the surface of the Earth, or of your body, gets warmer.

So global warming does not violate the second law of thermodynamics. And if someone tells you otherwise, just remember that you're a warm human being, and certainly nobody's dummy.

Basic rebuttal written by Tony Wildish


Update July 2015:

Here is the relevant lecture-video from Denial101x - Making Sense of Climate Science Denial

 


Update October 2017:

Here is a walk-through explanation of the Greenhouse Effect for bunnies, by none other than Eli, over at Rabbit Run.

Last updated on 7 October 2017 by skeptickev. View Archives

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Further reading

  • Most textbooks on climate or atmospheric physics describe the greenhouse effect, and you can easily find these in a university library. Some examples include:
  • The Greenhouse Effect, part of a module on "Cycles of the Earth and Atmosphere" provided for teachers by the University Corporation for Atmospheric Research (UCAR).
  • What is the greenhouse effect?, part of a FAQ provided by the European Environment Agency.

References

Comments

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Comments 301 to 325 out of 829:

  1. Re #299 Ned you wrote:- "Damorbel, did you ever read the last paragraph of this comment? Did you understand it?" Is this from your paragraph:- "If the albedo of the earth increased, it will receive less short-wavelength radiation (visible, near-infrared). But this doesn't imply an immediate, corresponding reduction in outgoing long-wavelength radiation"? How so? Isn't the outgoing radiation scattered by the same material that scatters the incoming radiation to give the albedo? And further you wrote:- "I'd also note that damorbel has still not explained why he/she approvingly cites an explanation at wikipedia that explicitly relies on the exact same mechanism that he/she thinks violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics." Which is just a multilayer metalised thermal blanket. Thermal blankets don't break any laws of themodynamics because it doesn't matter which way the radiation comes or on its wavelength. They work by reflecting radiation in both directions; a metalised themal blanket doesn't have to be 100% opaque, it could be 30%; reflecting just 30%, same as the Earth. The Earth reflects back 30% of the radiation coming from the Sun, isn't 30% of the radiation coming from the Earth going to get reflected back in the same way? The Earth is not equipped with a one-way mirror that reflects 30% of the Sunlight but transmits its own radiation 100% (making it behave like a black body); no way does that happen in real physics.
  2. @damorbel: "The Earth reflects back 30% of the radiation coming from the Sun, isn't 30% of the radiation coming from the Earth going to get reflected back in the same way?" You seem to believe that albedo is solely determined by atmospheric (i.e. "above-ground") conditions, but a lot of the actual albedo is determined by the actual reflectiveness of the Earth's surface (water, rock, vegetation, deserts, polar caps, etc.). In that sense, a significant portion of the energy reflected to space cannot be reflected back to the ground, because the ground itself is what's reflecting it.
  3. No, damorbel, multilayer thermal blankets do not operate solely by reflection. Apparently you really did not read the article you linked to. Go read it. Really, read it. Notice the explanation of the non-reflective mechanism by which it operates.
  4. damorbel, reflection (scattering) does depend on frequency. That's why the sky is blue.
  5. Re #303 Tom Dayton you wrote:- "apparently you really did not read the article you linked to. Go read it. Really, read it. Notice the explanation of the non-reflective mechanism by which it operates." You are right. But the article, which says :- "the principle behind MLI is radiation balance. To see why it works, start with a concrete example - imagine a square meter of a surface in outer space, at 300 K, with an emissivity of 1, facing away from the sun or other heat sources. From the Stefan-Boltzmann law, this surface will radiate 460 watts. Now imagine we place a thin (but opaque) layer 1 cm away from the plate, thermally insulated from it, and also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 watts from each side, at which point everything is in balance." is wrong; it says (5lines down) "and also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 watts." The whole principle of reflective insulation is using material with low emissivity. Initially satellites used gold plating as a barier against heat tranfer. Gold has an emissivity <0.05, depending on the finish. Also the well known silver teapot (emissivity = 0.02 - 0.03) has only one emitting surface, it keeps the tea hot better than any other material. Further, the vacuum flask the vacuum flask has only two layers and achieves far greater insulation than the explanation given in the 'Multi Layer article. When you write :- "Notice the explanation of the non-reflective mechanism by which it operates." I do not know what you mean. These materials work best in a vacuum which is the case for Sun/Earth heat transfer. In #304 you write:- "reflection (scattering) does depend on frequency. That's why the sky is blue." This wavelength dependence of scattering has no effect on total transfer of heat when at the equilibrium temperature, if it did there could be no equilibrium.
  6. Re #302 archiesteel you wrote:- "You seem to believe that albedo is solely determined by atmospheric (i.e. "above-ground") conditions, but a lot of the actual albedo is determined by the actual reflectiveness of the Earth's surface (water, rock, vegetation, deserts, polar caps, etc.)." The albedo is the radiation reflected by an object in space, it is the average over the surface.
  7. damorbel, multilayer insulation works even when its surfaces are not coated with reflective material. Read that article again--carefully this time. Oh, wait, you've now decided the article you yourself first pointed to as support is wrong, now that we have forced you to actually read it. In fact, you believe everyone on the planet but you is wrong--everything that everyone has told you, and everything that we've told you to read, and now something that you told the rest of us to read. Do you really believe you are the lone genius on Earth who truly understands the second law of thermodynamics?
  8. @damorbel: it is averaged to obtain the entire planet's albedo, sure, but that doesn't mean this accurately describes the actual reflection at any given location on the globe. Anyway, that's besides the point. You seem not to understand the fact that we are talking about two different types of radiation, i.e. short-wave (visible light, ultraviolet, etc.) and long-wave radiation (infrared). CO2 and greenhouse gases absorb and re-emit the latter, not the former. That is the so-called greenhouse effect. A higher albedo means less of the energy is converted from short-wave to long-wave by the surface, i.e. the latter's temperature doesn't increase as much; therefore a higher albedo value usually means colder temperature.
  9. damorbel, you completely missed the point archiesteel made. He was countering your claim that reflection of radiation incoming to the Earth must be matched by reflection of radiation outgoing from the Earth. A large part of the reflection of the incoming radiation is by things on the ground. Since the radiation outgoing from the Earth is headed away from things on the ground, the things on the ground cannot reflect it. So the reflection of outgoing cannot automatically be the same as the reflection of incoming, since the reflectors in the two cases are different.
  10. Tom Dayton wrote : "Do you really believe you are the lone genius on Earth who truly understands the second law of thermodynamics?" I think the answer to this, in damorbel's mind, is 'yes'. I'm not being insulting but I think everyone should look at this Wikipedia page, which seems to be the same damorbel going through the same arguments, with others attempting what you are all trying to explain here. What is the point and why should anyone be allowed to do this here ?
  11. Tom, I came to that conclusion about damorbel many posts ago. If you believe that your own version of physics is right and all textbooks are wrong and you determine not to learn otherwise, then noone can teach you. We are wasting time. I sure hope the person that taught him physics isnt still in a job.
  12. Thanks for digging up damorbel's rap sheet. I'm going to ignore him or her from now on.
  13. Same here. Damorbel is clearly not interested in learning the science, but rather in pushing his own unsupported theories. When someone is consistently being shown wrong and he/she refuses to acknowledge it, then that persons is likely a troll looking for attention. I'll ingore him/her as well.
  14. I've been following damorbel's arguments, and the counter arguments which seem weak and highly tortuous. Doesn't the complexity and stretching of the 2nd law of thermodynamics send any alarm bells ringing? Damorbel is certainly not alone and has my support and that of Claes Johnson(Prof Appl Maths,Stockholm), Alan Siddons, and Piers Corbyn, weatherman extraordinaire, latter-day Druid.In fact, he is probably the only pundit that is doing what scientists,as latter-day druids are supposed to do....making predictions that turn out to be correct.....unlike the agw believers. The layman will judge you, as he has done over millenia, by the accuracy of your predictions. Get it right and you'll be respected as gods. Get it wrong and you may be outlawed...or worse. Piers is anti-AGW, yet his predictions have been miles more accurate than the British Met Office....who have actually opted out of giving long-range forecasts.
  15. AWoL, let's see. (1) The counterarguments are perfectly straightforward. (2) AGW gets along fine with the 2nd law of thermodynamics; there's no stretching at all. (3) Piers Corbyn has a very poor predictive record, which is unsurprising given his unscientific methods. Aside from that, your comment is right on!
  16. AWoL, the claim of "weak" needs to be supported. There's very little that's "weak" about AGW. There are a few unknowns, but the basic physics is straightforward. The claim of "highly tortuous" is relative and therefore unarguable, since the reader/thinker making the claim may be unable to process the concepts involved. If so, this is hardly proof that the theory is in any way weak or flawed, and is more likely a sign that the reader/thinker needs to spend more time developing a comprehensive understanding rather than parroting those who have a more comforting but less physically consistent message. The layman will judge, as you say, but the layman will also believe in--and in fact kill in defense of--2000 year old theories that are still unsupported by any sort of evidence at all. If you're a strong believer in ethical behavior and integrity, think about what happens if you get it wrong and end up partially responsible for a great deal of suffering. As for Corbyn, I'll second Ned.
  17. Re #307 Tom Dayton you wrote:- "multilayer insulation works even when its surfaces are not coated with reflective material." All material reflects, or more accurately, scatters radiation; mirror type reflection or indeed refraction, is called coherent scattering because the phase relationship of the incoming radiation is (largely) preserved. Coherent or not, scattering reduces the transmission of radiation through a given aperture (the Earth's disk?) This reduction is independent of the direction of the source. This means that, if the Sun's incoming radiation is reduced by factor called the Albedo, then the outgoing thermal radiation will be reduced by the same amount. The magnitude of the scattering function may well be subtantially independent of wavelength as with transparent materials such as water but that doesn't mean the radiation is not redirected away from absorption/emission. For example clouds (water) contribute substantially to the albedo because the droplets are very small, whereas the oceans (water) which appears dark in images of the Earth appears to make a much smaller contribution to the albedo. Liquid water (70% of Earth's surface) having a relatively smooth surface, allows sunlight to get to depths far greater than its wavelength where it gets gradually absorbed. Only a limited % of the radiation penetrating the water surface remerges because of the phenomenon of total internal reflection, an example of coherent scattering. This total internal reflection phenomenon applies equally to radiation originating (thermally) under the water surface, it means that thermal radiation is, to a certain extent, trapped there, reducing its emissivity in proportion and thus water (70% of... remember?) cannot radiate like the black body central to GH effect theory.
  18. Re #315 Ned you wrote:- "2) AGW gets along fine with the 2nd law of thermodynamics; there's no stretching at all" The original argument for AGW is that "Earth radiates like a black body", that is how a supposed equilibrium temperature (without GHE) of 255K is calculated. It is this 'never justified assumption' (check p3 for a 'list of assumptions') that means the AGW 'science' breaks the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. The fact that Earth manifestly is not a black body (because it has an albedo) destroys the GHE temperature calculation completely. Trying to sustain this by observations about a wavelength function do not account for the fact that the wavelength function of Earth's albedo alone is irrelevant because it doesn't include the magnitude (wavelength independent part) of the albedo. It is the magnitude of the albedo, not the wavelength function, that governs energy transfer, as explained in #317.
  19. damorbel writes: the wavelength function of Earth's albedo alone is irrelevant because it doesn't include the magnitude (wavelength independent part) of the albedo. It is the magnitude of the albedo, not the wavelength function, that governs energy transfer More anti-mathematical gibberish. AWoL, is this really the person you want to be following? "Albedo" is just the average spectral reflectance across a broad range of the spectrum. That's all that it is. Whether a particular photon is absorbed or reflected by a surface depends on the spectral reflectance of the surface at that particular photon's wavelength. It doesn't depend on the generalized average reflectance of the surface across a wide range of wavelengths (albedo).
  20. damorbel & AWoL, the simple fact is that the stuff damorbel is saying is on the level of 'the earth is flat', 'the sun orbits the earth', and 'the earth is only 6000 years old'. It is completely at odds with science that has been considered established fact, based on hundreds of lines of evidence, for over a century. If you believe otherwise you are either a nutjob or a revolutionary genius. However, if you want to prove that you are a genius, and not a nutjob, ranting on the internet does not seem the most effective approach. If you think you've found some amazing and clear evidence which disproves the greenhouse effect (which mainstream science considers to have been proven by Tyndall in 1858) what you should be doing is publishing your findings in science journals. Trying to argue it out here, while the textbooks still contradict you, just leads people to the 'nutjob' conclusion.
  21. AWoL wrote : "I've been following damorbel's arguments, and the counter arguments which seem weak and highly tortuous." Could you list what darmobel's arguments are and which particular "counter arguments" are "weak and higly tortuous" ? Can you give more detail ? AWoL also wrote : "Doesn't the complexity and stretching of the 2nd law of thermodynamics send any alarm bells ringing?" Again, can you give more details of the "stretching" ? As to this all being complex : well, you don't say ! That doesn't mean that anything in particular, involving the 2nd Law or AGW, is wrong, does it ? Or can you point out what you believe is wrong ? AWoL then wrote : "Damorbel is certainly not alone and has my support and that of Claes Johnson(Prof Appl Maths,Stockholm), Alan Siddons, and Piers Corbyn, weatherman extraordinaire, latter-day Druid." The usual so-called skeptical reliance on lone voices, especially weathermen ! Tell me : how can you tell when those lone voices are so far out there that they are beyond rational science ? Does that ever bother you, or do you accept the creationist view of life on earth too - i.e. the lone voices ? As for your use of the word "Druid", that suggests to me that you have a religious basis for your beliefs, so maybe creationism IS your favoured view of life on earth ? AWoL also wrote : "In fact, he is probably the only pundit that is doing what scientists,as latter-day druids are supposed to do....making predictions that turn out to be correct.....unlike the agw believers." Uh oh, that religious angle again. You would be better looking for scientists who are NOT "latter-day druids" (whatever you believe that means), and stick to scientists who work in the fields in which they are pronouncing. AWoL wrote : "The layman will judge you, as he has done over millenia, by the accuracy of your predictions. Get it right and you'll be respected as gods. Get it wrong and you may be outlawed...or worse." Love the implied threath there : "or worse". Why don't you reveal what will happen to anyone who uses the scientific method without being able to get 100% results, i.e. just about every scientist in any field you care to mention. And, once again, try to leave religion out of this, please. AWoL finally wrote : "Piers is anti-AGW, yet his predictions have been miles more accurate than the British Met Office....who have actually opted out of giving long-range forecasts." Do you have any evidence of the predictions of this druid of yours, so we can see how good he is at crystal-gazing ? By the way, the Met Office no longer do seasonal forecasts, as they recognise the difficulty of predictions for this time-period, and they know that any wrong word will be taken out of context and abused by the denialosphere.
  22. Re #319 Ned you wrote:- ""Albedo" is just the average spectral reflectance across a broad range of the spectrum. That's all that it is." And you cited my #318:- "It is the magnitude of the albedo, not the wavelength function, that governs energy transfer" Did it occur to you that these may be the same thing? We seem to be in agreement. So do you also agree that the albedo is not a 'one way' effect? That the material making the reflections that produce the albedo, water, ice, desert sand, clouds etc., also can reflect back some of the Earth's thermal radiation, in the manner of total internal reflection, as I described in #317? Or do you subscribe to the idea that radiation from Earth is completely unhindered, just like that of a theoretical black body?
  23. damorbel, re: your belief that the temperature of a planet is independent of its albedo: ---------------------- (1) Almost all incident solar radiation on the planet is shortwave (visible/near-infrared). (2) An increase [or decrease] in the planet's albedo causes it to absorb less [or more] energy from the sun. (3) This causes the planet to cool down [or heat up]. (4) As the planet cools down [or heats up], it emits less [or more] longwave radiation, because of the T4 term in the Stefan-Bolzmann equation. Eventually, the planet reaches a new equilibrium whereby incoming and outgoing radiation are once again balanced, but with the planet at a lower [or higher] mean temperature. ---------------------- None of that has much to do with the greenhouse effect -- it would all be true even on a planet with no atmosphere at all. The only connection seems to be that your confusion about planetary radiation balance is deeper and more fundamental than just the parts relating to greenhouse gases. OK, so what about the subject of this thread? Re: your belief that the greenhouse effect violates the second law of thermodynamics: ---------------------- (A) The planet is heated by absorbing shortwave radiation from the sun. (B) The planet loses heat by emitting longwave radiation to space. (C) Greenhouse gases in the atmosphere will reduce the flux of outgoing longwave radiation within their absorption bands. (D) This reduction in OLR causes the planet's temperature to rise. (E) As the temperature rises, more OLR is emitted outside the greenhouse gas absorption bands. (F) Eventually, the total emitted radiation once again balances the incoming solar radiation, but with a proportionately lower amount in the absorption bands, a higher amount outside the absorption bands, and a higher mean temperature of the planet. ---------------------- It's all perfectly straightforward, and there's no violation of the second law of thermodynamics anywhere in there. So where does this mistaken idea about violation of the 2LOT come from? As far as I can tell, it's within step (D). It's pretty clear how this process warms the atmosphere. But how can it warm the surface? After all, the surface is warmer than the atmosphere, and the net transfer of energy should be from the warmer surface to the cooler atmosphere. This is the line of reasoning used by most of the 2LOT-skeptics. But that line of reasoning is mistaken, and the greenhouse effect is perfectly capable of warming the surface without violating any laws: ---------------------- (D.1) In accordance with the Stefan-Bolzmann law, the atmosphere emits longwave radiation. (D.2) Some of this radiation goes outward to space, and is lost to the planet's system. Some of it goes inward towards the surface. (D.3) This downwelling longwave radiation from the atmosphere is absorbed by the planet's surface. (D.4) The absorption of this downwelling radiation reduces the magnitude of the net flux of longwave radiation leaving the surface, making the surface warmer than it would have been if it were not surrounded by an atmosphere that includes greenhouse gases. ---------------------- That's a bit more complicated than the previous two descriptions, but there's still no violation of the second law (or any other law). The net heat flux is from the surface to the atmosphere; it's just a smaller flux than it would have been if the atmosphere weren't there (or didn't contain greenhouse gases). What gets really convoluted are the attempts to force this description into something that would violate the second law, by those who are convinced that it must do so. Generally, these involve asserting that the second law doesn't just mean that the net flow of radiation has to be from the surface to the atmosphere, but that there can be no radiation at all flowing in the opposite direction. When people claim this, they think they're preserving the second law, but they're actually going far beyond what the second law says, and breaking some other part of physics in the process (perhaps the Stefan-Bolzmann law, perhaps the first law of thermodynamics, or perhaps something else). This is all completely uncontroversial among physicists, earth and planetary scientists, and others who deal with radiation balances in their work. There is no fertile ground for AGW-skepticism here. A rational AGW-skeptic will accept this, and ground her or his skepticism in some other part of the landscape (climate sensitivity is low, the impacts won't be negative overall, the costs of mitigating AGW would be higher than the costs of adapting to it, or whatever).
  24. Wow, Ned. That was extremely well done. Congrats.
  25. Re #323 Ned you wrote: "Generally, these involve asserting that the second law doesn't just mean that the net flow of radiation has to be from the surface to the atmosphere," In particular:- "but that there can be no radiation at all flowing in the opposite direction." I don't assert what you write, nor have I seen it in any serious text on thermodynamics. The idea is completely absurd; but it has often been said by those, like yourself, defending the concepts of AGW/GHE. Further you write:- "When people claim this, they think they're preserving the second law." That is what you say, do you have a link I can follow? And futher you write:- "but they're actually going far beyond what the second law says, and breaking some other part of physics in the process (perhaps the Stefan-Bolzmann law, perhaps the first law of thermodynamics, or perhaps something else)." Now I would like to think you are not just asserting some kind of ignorance on my part by describing my arguments in such an absurd way, this of course would a classical 'straw man' argument. I would like to discuss the matter properly, I suggest that is the intention of the founders of www.skepticalscience.com but surely trying to make my contributions look absurd is not the best way forward.

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