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Dikran Marsupial at 02:06 AM on 9 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
karly wrote "Good on you. I have an Honours BSc, a PhD, an MSc, and a DSc. I have also published over 150 peer reviewed journal articles. Did you think you were going to intimidate me?"
No, it was you that questioned the qualifications of those posting criticisms of Dr Steel's work here, I was merey indulging your curiosity. I also made it clear that qualifications mean nothing in scientific discussions, what matters is whether the argument is correct. That would be an odd thing to write if I was trying to intimidate somebody. My reason for mentioning this was to point out that questioning qualifications is an ad-hominem attack.
". It seems only fair that tthose criticising him should acknowledge their own expertise."
why should anybody do that, given that your response to me indulging your curiosity on this point was a personal attack?
I note that karly is trying very hard to avoid discussing the actual content of Dr Steel's argument, which seems pretty odd for an academic such high apparent calibre.
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Tristan at 01:50 AM on 9 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Specifically, SkS is Queensland time (EST), we've got our own timezone because we don't understand the merit of Daylight Savings (the list of things Queenslanders don't understand is long). :)
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MA Rodger at 01:35 AM on 9 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @28. Au contraire. The exact quote is there on Wattsupia, complete with your leading quotation mark which is absent from the Yahoo original. It was posted on the Wattsupian page in question by some denizen commenter about 5 hours before you pasted it here. The URL @23 is, of course, a tinyURL.com link so not the Wattsupia link but an indirect one, created by you perhaps?
Ashton @29. As Firgoose @30 sort-of explains, with The Daily Rail I was referring to Lord Rothermere's little rag, and, as I do, making play on its name and the fact that it gets so many of its readers regularly railing against this modern world we all live it.
Firgoose @30. SkepticalScience time = Oz time. Apparently proper British time, railway time (hey, didn't we invent proper time, Greenwich meridian and all that? Or was it just the railways we invented?), it works so badly when you cross the channel or the Atlantic that it tends not to be used out there. But just to prevent bruising British jingoism too much with this shocking home-truth, be aware that good old GMT has also been fitted up with the fancy name of Universal Time. And now the railways actually do cross the channel...
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Firgoose at 00:21 AM on 9 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
@Ashton: Where truthful reporting about the climate (and quite a number of other topics) is concerned, Phil could have called it the Daily deRail or perhaps the Daily Maul. I imagine that it's because Phil, like me, prefers to avoid posting direct, searchable reference to sources like that newspaper and to sites like WattsUpIsCrap. For me, at least, it's a minor form of protest. Does that give you a sufficient clue? ;-)
@SkS: This was posted at 14:21pm British time in response to a post timestamped at 23:56pm. Has the server's clock eaten something bad?
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Ashton at 23:56 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
My apologies, I should have remebered to ask again what the Daily Rail is as I've never seen it and a, very, quick Google search gave no information that semed appropriate.
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Ashton at 23:53 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
I don't usually read what is on WUWT, just quickly scan through. As you commented " Wattsupia page that also had your exact quote" I did go back and read more carefully. I think you'll find that quote was only partially given on WUWT which gave only the last two sentences of the quote I used @23. I got the quote from the URL I gave @ 23 which I got from WUWT and which contained quite a lot more material than that which I quoted.
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MA Rodger at 23:27 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @26.
Would that be the "couple of articles from the Guardian" (the Farming story & the Environment story) that, along with your link @23 to Yahoo news, are all linked on that Wattsupia page that also had your exact quote @23?
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MA Rodger at 23:03 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
"I have read [karly's contribution down] this thread with sheer astonishment." For someone to proclaim "I have an Honours BSc, a PhD, an MSc, and a DSc." Full stop. That is strange enough to raise questions as to why it would be said truthfully.
And for that same person to also state that which is now erased by the moderators, that raises little doubt as to the answer to that question.
Karly, even though I don't hold a DSc., trust me when I tell you that holders of multiple degrees almost always act with a certain humility (although that doesn't stop them behaving with extreme 'robustness' when the occasion calls for it, and may times when it isn't). It is not at all necessary for clever people to tell the world that they are clever. Their abilities speaks for themselves.
And why is it necessary to know the qualifications of a commenter? Why would you say "If they are reluctant, then I think it is reasonable to discard their opinions as complete rubbish"? Somebody capable of post-graduate qualification should be able to judge the veracity of a commenter here by what they say alone. Or if not, the comment can be checked by a little research on this wonderful interweb the world is now blessed with. I thus would suggest to you that this thought @358, as you relate it to us, it is actually very "unreasonable."
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Ashton at 23:03 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
I've never heard of the Daily Rail but that maybe becuse I haven't been in the UK for very long. By Wattsupia do you mean WUWT? I didn't see the material I quoted there but I did read a couple of articles from the Guardian noting that due to the warmer wetter weather the crop yields were significantly more than average.
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Phil at 22:58 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @19
In the comments struck through by the moderator, you state of yourself
What I don't do is twist the words of others as I am able,usually. to comprehend what they mean.
You have, twice in this thread, misunderstood my comments and twisted them; once in @10 and once further down @19 also in the struck out comments. Whether this was intentional or accidental I cannot say, but I would humbly suggest a little more humility on your part.
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Tom Curtis at 22:52 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
karly @358:
"If they are reluctant, then I think it is reasonable to discard their opinions as complete rubbish."
I take this to be an admission by karly that neither they, nor Dr Steel, are able to defend his numerous blunders on climate science, nor his completely falsified model of albedo changes; and that therefore they need to shift the grounds of debate to argument from illegitimate authority. (Illegitimate because Dr Steel has no qualifications on climate science; and illegitimate because karly is "... not a physicist, astronomer or climate scientist".)
Of course, having previously declared their incompetence to assess the empirical evidence and the cogency of arguments offered, it is a bit difficult now for karly to claim to be able to assess the arguments on their merits.
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Tristan at 22:36 PM on 8 November 2014Models are unreliable
Michel
As the intermediate article above states: "Each individual climate model run has a random representation of these natural ocean cycles,"That is, they are trying to simulate a large source of the 'noise' in the climate signal. The ensemble mean of the models will, in some sense, reflect a scenario in which the short term noise has not pulled the temperature in either direction.
In reality, the noise of the last 15 years has pulled the signal downwards. On the flip side, if the noise had been a positive, rather than negative signal, we would most likely have witnessed temperatures that tracked above projections.
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Michel at 22:22 PM on 8 November 2014Models are unreliable
Why is it that, from all the models presented by IPCC in its last report (AR5 WG1 fig 9.8), all but one overshoot their estimation of current temperature anomaly, by up to 0.6 °C?
with zoom of the upper right corner
It may well be that the quality of the models doesn't enable a more exact reproduction of actual data.
That's life when historic series are scarce and imprecise, and when interactions are not well understood. More computers can't help.
However, what does it say about their ability to play future scenarii and provide useful projections?
Or to render a plausible equilibrium climate sensitivity?Moderator Response:[Rob P] - IIRC the CMIP5 simulations use historical data (hindcasts) up to 2005, and estimated forcings thereafter. The multi-model mean is the average of all the simulations and thus represents Earth without any natural variation. Natural variation (the IPO) has, however, had a hand in recent surface warming trends, as have light-scattering volcanic sulfate aerosols, a cooler-than-expected solar cycle, and perhaps industrial sulfate pollution too.
Allowing for all these things there is actually a remarkable match of the climate models with the recent slower rate of surface warming. And note too that many of these models have climate sensitivities of around 3°C. Time will tell if there's a problem, but there's no genuine reason to think so yet.
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Tristan at 22:17 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Karly, everyone possesses a set of naive algorithms for establishing the veracity of arguments that are beyond their comprehension.
If you acknowledge that the contention between Steel and Curtis/Rodger is in fact, beyond your comprehension you will need to resort to your truthiness algorithm.
The thing is, people don't necessarily want to engage in the requisite PhDenis measuring competition that you propose. Opinions have been provided, which the informed reader can use, along with the behaviour of the parties involved, to come to a conclusion. -
Leto at 22:12 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Karly,
Dr Steel has the option of returning to defend his ideas in this forum, submitting his ideas to peer review, or leaving us with the impression that he is not to be taken seriously. So far, your efforts on his behalf have not really changed those options or improved that impression, but it is not to late to offer something useful. If you have specific comments to make on the content of his theories, rather than impressionistic views of the various personalities involved in this discussion, please share them.
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karly at 21:33 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Can we actually have the qualifications of the commentators?
Dr Steel is a world expert on astrophysics. It seems only fair that tthose criticising him should acknowledge their own expertise.
If they are reluctant, then I think it is reasonable to discard their opinions as complete rubbish.
Moderator Response:[Rob P] - Presumably you'd be happy with a proctologist performing open heart surgery on you?
Actual experts on any given subject are those that have their ideas published in the scientific literature and their research subjected to scrutiny by their peers. Convincing ones peers of the validity of your research in a given scientific discipline is a good measure of expertise. Does Dr Steel have any publications relevant to the subject under discussion? Is there any indication of support for his ideas in the relevant scientific community?
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Tristan at 21:21 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
Given Dikran opened his remarks on qualifications with 'FWIW' and then described his own qualifications as irrelevant to the science, I don't see an attempt at intimidation. I consider it a response to your statement:
"Since none of the posters admit to any scientific training whatsoever (Mr Curtis is apparently a ‘philosopher’), or have stated their qualifications..."
To me it looks like you have invited posters to lay out their expertise, only to accuse them of intimidation when they do.
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karly at 21:10 PM on 8 November 2014Antarctica is gaining ice
@351
Good on you. I have an Honours BSc, a PhD, an MSc, and a DSc. I have also published over 150 peer reviewed journal articles. Did you think you were going to intimidate me?
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MA Rodger at 20:04 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @23.
The article you quote first appeared in the Daily Rail and your quote appeared verbatum as a denialist quote on the planet Wattsupia. The reason for the quote on that far-and-distant place was the original article's inappropriate conversion of a discussion about recent UK weather
"the period from January to October this year has been the warmest since records began in 1910 while it has also been the second wettest"
into discussion of death and destruction from AGW
"Experts say the increase is the result of climate change and warn that it could place a burden on the NHS as Britons struggling to cope with predicted heatwaves end up in hospital."
a rather big jump in subject that was achieved remarkably swiftly within the Rail article. There was no intervening discussion, no scene stetting. There was no text between these two quoted section, just the start of a new paragraph.
I think such bizarre journalistic writing can only be explained by it being intended as a dog-whistle for denialist Daily Rail reader and their ilk.
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Ashton at 18:23 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
This is what the British meteorological office is reported as saying about 2014
"However, the Met Office cautioned against drawing too much from the figures - and stressed that the year is not finished yet. A spokeswoman said: "If we have an incredibly cold November and December, then it could end up being a mediocre year. "The reason we have records for set periods, for example monthly and annually, is so they can be quantified against each other year on year, otherwise anyone could make up a theory and anyone could come to a conclusion. "Things like climate change you look at over a long period of time because we look at trends. "So we can't say it is warmer than other years because of climate change. It could just be natural variation."
This comment can be accessed via http://tinyurl.com/jwzsdnl
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PhilippeChantreau at 16:05 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton, nobody is making an ad-hominem argument against you. There seems to be abundant confusion on this logical fallacy.
An ad-hominem argument consists of saying taht someone is a bad person because of such and such (which may or may not be true and is irrelevant) and that, therefore, what they say is wrong. It is a logical fallacy because the validity of their argument has nothing to do with the personal trait used to try to invalidate it. This is not what is happening to you at all. Your arguments are being attacked for their intrinsic lack of validity, which can be objectively established. Your rethoric is also at issue. The fact that you then try to defend these arguments through transparent rethorical tricks and never acknowledge any lack of validity is the logical premise of your qualification as a troll. That is the opposite logical process of an ad-hominem argument: it is because of what you say that you are so qualified, and that is entirely defensible from a logical point of view. The lack of validity of your arguments still separately stands on their own lack of merit.
You can prove Tom Curtis and others wrong by making a cogent argument; one that is clearly defined and well articulated through correct syntax, then supported by verifiable sources, data, etc...
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One Planet Only Forever at 13:32 PM on 8 November 2014New study questions the accuracy of satellite atmospheric temperature estimates
My mistake in failing to fully revise my presentation to the duration of the trend in the satellite data set being 6 years rather than 7.
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One Planet Only Forever at 13:29 PM on 8 November 2014New study questions the accuracy of satellite atmospheric temperature estimates
Better understanding the differences between the trends of very different evaluations is important. But inconsistencies of trends of short-term averages in the different methods would not prove either is wrong. It may only indicate that different short term factors have a different effect on each measurement.
It could be found that in spite of the eventually understood reasons for the differences both methods produce comparable trends of the averages of longer durations of measurement like a 360 month rolling average. However, the satellite record developed by Spencer is only 36 years long. The Spencer satellite data would only be able to present 6 years of such an average (1979-2008, through 1985-2014). But it is fairly obvious that the trend through those 7 years would be clearly increasing since the 13 month averages on Spencer's graph since 2008 have been warmer than the values before 1985. A simplistic evaluation of this 7 year trend would be:
- the average of values from 2009-2014 is ~ +0.2 C
- the average of values from 1979-1984 is ~ -0.1 C
- therefore the sum of the last 30 year period would be 6x0.3=1.8 degrees C higher than the first 30 years.
- the average of the last 30 years would be about 0.06 C warmer than the first, for a trend of 0.10 C per decade. This is similar to the value in the surface temperature sets over the same period.
Therefore, until there is a significantly longer record of satellite data there is little justification for claims that the satellite record is more accurate and that the surface temperature data is incorrect. Also, there is little justification for a claim that we need to wait until that longer satellite record is established.
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John Hartz at 12:03 PM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
[JH] Moderator's Comment
Ashton:
Please note that posting comments here at SkS is a privilege, not a right. This privilege can and will be rescinded if the posting individual continues to treat adherence to the Comments Policy as optional, rather than the mandatory condition of participating in this online forum.
Moderating this site is a tiresome chore, particularly when commentators repeatedly submit offensive or off-topic posts. We really appreciate people's cooperation in abiding by the Comments Policy, which is largely responsible for the quality of this site.
Finally, please understand that moderation policies are not open for discussion. If you find yourself incapable of abiding by these common set of rules that everyone else observes, then a change of venues is in the offing.
Please take the time to review the policy and ensure future comments are in full compliance with it. Thanks for your understanding and compliance in this matter.
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Tom Curtis at 09:13 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @19, I try to interpret you accurately, but when you write things such as, " If you say so but that reply from will would allow the real nit pickers into the action pointing out that a lot less than 97% of meteorologists and engineers and geologists do not agree with AGW", it is hard.
For example, did you really mean the nit pickers are arguing from the fact that there is not a 97% consensus against AGW among meteorologists, engineers and geologists? That, certainly, is what you literally indicated.
In addition to having to compensate for you inability to follow the simple logic of negation, I also need to compensate when interpreting you for your known rhetorical strategies. In particular, your basic rhetorical strategy is to point out that x% if the population is not convinced that AGW is real (or not convinced enough to take appropriate action), and give that as a reason to not in fact take action on AGW. There beliefs are presented not as reasons to persuade them to the contrary, but as reasons to accept their conclusions because it is futile to do otherwise.
Applying that rhetorical strategy to your comments about the nitpickers, we can only conclude that you not only think the nitpickers are correct on the irrelevant technical point, but that that by itself is sufficient to make their point stand.
In other words, if you have a problem with how I interpret your words, I will stop interpreting your words as those of a troll when you stop trolling.
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Tom Curtis at 08:58 AM on 8 November 2014New study questions the accuracy of satellite atmospheric temperature estimates
Ricardo K @2, as one of the two original developers of the satellite temperature series, and co-author of the oldest and most cited satellite temperature series, Spencer is well qualified to talk on this issue. This is one of the few occasions where including his views does not constitute false balance (despite his known biases).
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Ashton at 08:57 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
No Tom Curtis I don't cling to anything as I am able to rationaliise and dissect arguments from a variety of different sources. What I don't do is twist the words of others as I am able,usually. to comprehend what they mean. You, not for the first time have twisted my words to suit your ownends. The point I was making was that will was incorrect in saying 97 % of scientists etc rather than 97% of climate scientists. That is fact as you with your 18% comment above have confirmed. So please Tom Curtis if you must vilify those that think a little more deeply than you appear to be able to do, make sure you understand what they are saying. Your comment re medical issues from geologists shows your complete inability to follow the point I was making to will. And why fellow sceptics? Are you irritated that anyone who doesn't slavishly follow your viewpoint must ipso facto be a sceptic. Exaclty what Tom Curtis in my reply to Will indicated personal scepticism? Moderator the ad hominem rules are very flexible for some and a lot less so for others.
Phil no idea what a Daily Mail reader thinks like although you obviously do as the people I mix with read the Guardian not the Daily Mail. Perhaps you should cultivate a few such acquaintances.
Composer read this http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/Climate-Beliefs-April-2013. This is the opening paragraph
"Nearly two in three Americans (63%) believe global warming is happening. Relatively few – only 16 percent – believe it is not. However, since Fall 2012, the percentage of Americans who believe global warming is happening has dropped 7 points to 63%, likely influenced by the relatively cold winter of 2012-13 in the United States and an unusually cold March just before the survey was conducted. - See more at: http://environment.yale.edu/climate-communication/article/Climate-Beliefs-April-2013#sthash.E0vqVmrx.dpuf
Moderator Response:[JH] You are very close to relinquishing your privilege to post comments on this webiste.
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Ricardo K at 08:47 AM on 8 November 2014New study questions the accuracy of satellite atmospheric temperature estimates
Why is it that the Grauniad's only 'expert' commentator is Roy Spencer of the Heartland Institute? He thinks the globe is cooling and CO2 is good for the economy. His 2011 paper on climate sensitivity was so bad that the editor who published it called it "fundamentally flawed" and resigned. It's like asking Bernie Madoff to comment on legislation to prevent tax fraud.
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Tom Curtis at 08:21 AM on 8 November 2014Looking after the right forests benefits the climate
wili @4, for off topic but related comments, it is generally easy to find an article on Sks where they are on topic, make the post there and link back on the thread which initially started the thoughts. If all else fails, almost everything is on topic in the weekly digest posts (not the news digests).
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Tom Curtis at 08:18 AM on 8 November 2014Ocean acidification isn't serious
dvaytw @61, that is a simple question requires a moderately complicated answer.
The most fundamental point is that ocean acidity is controlled not only be pCO2 concentrations, but also by Calcium ion concentrations. A high dissolved CO2 concentration can be largely offset by a high Calcium ion concentration. Calcium is introduced to the ocean by the weathering of rocks, both by rain and plant activity. Both of those increase in a warm (high CO2) world so that a natural tendency to equilibrium exists. The result is that even in the eras of highest CO2 concentration over the past 500 million years, ocean pH has not fallen below 7.4 (Zeebe 2012, see figure 5). Past increases in CO2 concentration have been very slow in comparison to the modern anthropogenic increase, allowing ocean chemistry to adjust and restrict the resulting rise in ocean acidity. Because the modern increase is so fast, however, the calcium buffer is being exhausted, allowing a far higher ocean acidity relative to atmospheric CO2 concentration than has been the case in the past.
Second, it is not expected that increased ocean acidity will kill all corals. In particular, soft corals are not directly effected by ocean acidification, and can be expected to flourish (as will other related animals such as sea anenomes as jelly fish). Given high ocean acidity, hard bodied (ie, reef building) corals may revert to soft bodied forms and potentially survive in that way. The consequence of this, however, is that the reefs themselves will decay and be destroyed. The reefs form the basis of major ecosystems, and if they are destroyed most of the reef fishes will find themselves without habitat (including many of the newly soft bodied corals). The consequence will be that many of the reef species will go extinct, and those that survive will do so by adopting a non-reef mode of life - becoming much rarer than is currently the case. The human impact will be a reduction of the shelter provided to tropical shores by reefs, and a great reduction in tropical fisheries.
Third, as CBDunkerson points out, modern corals (scleractinia) have only existed for the last 220 million years, and missed the periods of very high CO2 levels in the past. Indeed, the leading explanation for the supplanting of previous reef building corals is that soft bodied ancestors of modern corals survived, where their hard bodied rivals did not, during the very high CO2 episode of the Permian extenction, and then evolved in to the thus vacated ecological niche. Since then, hard bodied forms of scleractia (and the reefs they produce) have disappeared several times in periods of high CO2 concentrations, ony to reappear several million years later. That several million year delay suggests to me that the scleractia have had to reevolve the reef building habit, ie, that the survivors were not the reef builders of the period but their soft bodied cousins. In any event, the last reappearance was 40 million years ago, when ocean acidity dropped to levels lower than can be expected from BAU over the next two the three hundred years (or one hundred if we are determined).
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Tom Curtis at 07:38 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
MA Rodger @17, geologists, whether they work for oil companies or not, are scientists.
The fact is that Ashton's pedantary is both correct and revealing. Only about 82% of all scientists (Doran and Zimmerman 2009). That rises to 97.4% if you restrict the categories to climatologists who actively publish on climatology.
It is revealing, however, that Ashton and his fellow "skeptics" cling to the straw of just 18% disagreement with the IPCC, and that from scientists who are not expert in the topic underconsideration. As if they would get a second opinion on a medical issue from geologists.
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MA Rodger at 05:20 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @14.
If you want to play the pedant, you need more than a little nouse about you or you will get tripped up.
Engineers are not scientists. Most meteorologists are weathermen who are not scientists. And geologists who mainly work for oil companies etc are also almost all not scientists. And the quote you object about up thread is from nobody here but from a writer of SciFi who presents it thus "Plot Idea - ....," which I think should give strong indication about its intended message.
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longjohn119 at 05:09 AM on 8 November 2014Weather Channel co-founder John Coleman prefers conspiracies to climate science
"Is this just math you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better or is this real?"
- Megyn Kelly to Karl Rove Election Eve 2012 .... but it also seems to be a relevent question to ask here also
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wili at 04:49 AM on 8 November 2014Looking after the right forests benefits the climate
That's what I figured. But that's what comment sections are for--things you couldn't get to in the main article (and of course other things, sometiems) aren't they? '-)
Moderator Response:[JH] The purpose of the comment threads on the SkS website is clearly articulated in the introductory paragraph of the SkS Comments Policy, i.e.,
The purpose of the discussion threads is to allow notification and correction of errors in the article, and to permit clarification of related points. Though we believe the only genuine debate on the science of global warming is that which occurs in the scientific literature, we welcome genuine discussion as both an aid to understanding and a means of correcting our inadvertent errors. To facilitate genuine discussion, we have a zero tolerance approach to trolling and sloganeering.
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Phil at 03:10 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
As for the death penaly analogy why is it that the percentage of people surveyed in, say, the USA, that are proponents of AGW is steadily falling.
I don't know, perhaps there is more mis-information propagated there than before ?
And abolition of the death penalty had no effect on the financial well being of the populace whereas implementing measures to reduce CO2 emissions certainly does.
This wasn't the point, of course. And failing to implement measures to reduce CO2 emissions will also affect the financial well being of the populace.
And if public opinion can be swayed so readily, why is there still no replacement of the Kyoyo Protocol?
I didn't say public opinion could be readily swayed; The TV program I mentioned took a number of people and forced them to confront arguments that they would normally avoid. The participants agreed to stay in meetings and listen to views on both sides that challenged their existing predjudices. They spent a lot of time in careful argument and discussion. That sort of thing certainly doesn't happen down the pub on a Friday night with your mates, nor would you expect someone who thinks like a Daily Mail reader to read the Guardian or vice versa.
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Composer99 at 02:55 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton, I just performed a Google search with the term "US polling global warming", and most recent polling I found shows that a majority of Americans accept that global warming is the result of human activities and support action to mitigate it at various levels of government & society (even if they do not report being seriously worried by it at the personal level). Further, to the best of my knowledge, such support has increased over recent years after a period of decline.
So I should like you to please provide a link to a poll that demonstrates your assertion otherwise in @10.
If we are to take seriously the notion that "financial well-being" of the populace is a good reason to avoid or postpone action to mitigate global warming, the fair and accurate thing to do is to compare the financial burdens of mitigation to those of adaptation or suffering - and I would say that, in effect, misinformed, underinformed, or uninformed citizens are failing to do make the appropriate comparison.
So Londoners, for example, have the choice between:
- Paying some extra tax money now (and for over, say, 1-3 decades) while they and the rest of the world's citizens get to work cutting emissions to near-nothing and working out how to suck excess CO2 from the atmosphere, and
- Paying even more extra tax money to continuously upgrade, maintain, and/or repair London's sea wall defences against rising seas for centuries to come (*), or in the absolute worst case abandon London to the ocean. (To say nothing of any other adaptation/suffering costs Londoners will have to pay for.)
If you think otherwise, on what evidentiary basis do you conclude that adaptation/suffering will be easier and cheaper than mitigation?
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(*) Which they are likely committed to doing to some extent, anyway, now that the West Antarctic ice sheet has begun to collapse. -
Ashton at 02:51 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Will thanks for the explanations.
KR absolutely none at all. No, I'd best qualify that in case you might misunderstand. I don't think "97% of climate scientists contrive an environmental crisis"and I do know that it has been stated 97% of climate scientists agree with AGW. I say "has been stated" as I haven't read the relevant papers supporting that claim I am relying on reports in the media that they do. My point is that a comment "that 97% of scientists say this or do that or think the other re climate change" is welcomed by those who disagree with AGW because that statement isn't accurate. Nit picking? If you say so but that reply from will would allow the real nit pickers into the action pointing out that a lot less than 97% of meteorologists and engineers and geologists do not agree with AGW
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Composer99 at 02:20 AM on 8 November 2014New study questions the accuracy of satellite atmospheric temperature estimates
Dr Abraham:
The version of the OP over at The Guardian feels a bit incomplete, as if there were more people whose impressions you had gathered that weren't included, and the impression I have is that there was more to be said about the critical attention Weng et al received, only the post was truncated before you got around to discussing it.
Was that your intent?
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2014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton - The fact that people sometimes act in ways that are not in their best interest (smoking, pollution, continued climate change, etc.) does not mean such behavior is exemplary. Or that we shouldn't try to do better.
From your nitpicking in the comment above, would you have issues with a (revised) line such as:
"97% of the world's (climate) scientists contrive an environmental crisis, but are exposed by a plucky band of billionaires & oil companies (& their lobbyists)."
Because that conspiracy theory really seems to encapsulate much of the current 'skeptic' blog commentary...
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wili at 01:31 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
From the Seven Myths article:
"Myth 5: Climate change is now one of the biggest causes of disasters
Fact: The biggest cause of disasters is vulnerable people and infrastructure in areas exposed to extreme events."
My problem with this is that the latter is always going to be true in pretty much every circumstance. As NYC gets inundated by sea water, you could say, "Oh, that wasn't so much a GW thing; it's just that they didn't have their seawall infrastructure ready." -
wili at 01:29 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton, it wasn't composed by me, but yes, it should say climate scientists. On the pedestrian thing, I was agreeing with you, but just finding it sad that this is the level of understanding that is influencing our futures.
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Ashton at 00:53 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
will I think your statement "97% of the world's scientists contrive an environmental crisis" should be "97% of the world's climate scientists contrive an environmenta crisisl". It is not true that 97% of the world's scientists are proponents of AGW they are not, the claim is 97% of climate scientists are proponents of AGW which is not the same thing at all. As for the death penaly analogy why is it that the percentage of people surveyed in, say, the USA, that are proponents of AGW is steadily falling. And abolition of the death penalty had no effect on the financial well being of the populace whereas implementing measures to reduce CO2 emissions certainly does. The efforts in Australia to introduce a 'carbon tax" which was actually an ETS, lead to the rapid demise of the government that tried to do so. And if public opinion can be swayed so readily, why is there still no replacement of the Kyoyo Protocol?
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One Planet Only Forever at 00:51 AM on 8 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton,
I agree that the 'pedestrian' excuses for 'dismissing the action that the continuously improved understanding of what is going on requires' does matter.
The ability of callous pursuers of personal benefit, people whose interests are threatened by a requirement to develop a sustainable better future for all, to succeed in maintaining popular disinterest in better understanding what is going on and suceeding in promoting made-up claims to be used as 'pedestrian' excuses is a serious problem.
Humanity has repeatedly failed to keep callous uncaring people from suceeding in their damaging ultimately unsustainable pursuits. The potential popularity of a personal better present from damaging unsustainable activity has always been the barrier to humanity succeeding to develop a sustainable better future. That can change, but a sub-set of the population that is currently very powerful need to be forced to change their rather firmly made-up minds so that they stop trying to create appealing made-up excuses for 'pedestrians'.
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MarkR at 00:07 AM on 8 November 2014Looking after the right forests benefits the climate
There are loads of benefits that rainforests provide, but I didn't want to get bogged down in that discussion with this post.
In principle, REDD+ is about paying for carbon alone, on the basis that this is good climate policy. I think that this is very well-jusified scientifically, and Dr Unger's piece could be interpreted as a claim that it isn't.
In principle, the other wonderful advantages of rainforests, such as biodiversity, providing new chemicals for medicines and stopping precious productive soil from washing away would also be worth paying for. But if I talked about that, then the blog post would have gone on and on!
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wili at 23:23 PM on 7 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Phil, I was thinking of that cartoon, too. There's a lot of good related stuff here: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_warming_denialism
Including this witticism:
"97% of the world's scientists contrive an environmental crisis, but are exposed by a plucky band of billionaires & oil companies."
—Scott Westerfeld
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CBDunkerson at 22:31 PM on 7 November 2014Ocean acidification isn't serious
dvaytw, 'How did they survive'? The simple answer is... they didn't. One of the primary reasons we know that these changes are going to kill corals (aside from the fact that it is, you know, already happening) is that there were coral die offs from similar events in the past.
It is also important to note that the rate of change is often more important than the absolute value. Changes which occur over the course of thousands of years allow organisms some time to adapt. Those which occur over the course of only centuries or decades generally do not.
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dvaytw at 21:47 PM on 7 November 2014Ocean acidification isn't serious
Here's a very annoying "oh yeah?" question I got about the issue of ocean acidification, warming and corals (and other shelled organisms). The dude basically said, "Oh yeah? Well if these things are so dangerous to corals, how did corals survive earlier periods when the ocean was much warmer and more acidic than it is now?"
Can anyone answer that?Moderator Response:[Rob P] - Sorry, I have written a series of rebuttals on this very topic but need to get our SkS graphics guru to create the animations necessary to convey the essential points.
Firstly, it's the concentration of carbonate ions that is important for shell-building. Tom Curtis is not quite correct about calcium ions. Both are the building blocks of the calcium carbonate structures, but calcium is largely invariant on sub million-year time scales. This is not the case for carbonate. So it's the concentration of carbonate ions that is the issue. A measure of the availability of carbonate/calcium ions is called the calcium carbonate saturation state - aragonite (a form of calcium carbonate) in the case of reef-building coral.
When additional CO2 is added to the atmosphere, more of it dissolves into the surface ocean. One of the reactions that takes place is the conversion of carbonate to bicarbonate when the carbonate ions combines with a hydronium ion. This buffers the decline of pH at the expense of the calcium carbonate saturation state, i.e. pH would fall even further if not for this reaction.
At equilibrium, CO2 is introduced into the atmosphere by volcanic activity and removed by the chemical weathering of rocks. If these two were not in balance, the climate would inexorably drift without any external influence. With geologically-rapid injections of CO2 into the atmosphere, the carbonate system is overwhelmed. The warmer atmosphere brought about by the extra CO2 increases the moisture content of the air and the greater rainfall-induced weathering (and dissolution of carbonate sediments on the ocean floor) flush more carbonates and bicarbonates back into the ocean, thus restoring the saturation state. This process takes tens to hundreds of thousands of years though.
So ocean acidification only occurs with geologically-rapid injections of CO2. With slow increases, or steady states, the weathering response is able to supply alkalinity back to the ocean to compensate for the carbonate ions converted to bicarbonate. Actually, the tendency is for the weathering process to overcompensate - creating an ocean carbonate saturation state that is even more hospitable to calcification than before the acidification event, or slow increase in atmospheric CO2.
With this understanding, the geological record now makes sense. Extinction events, such as the End Permian extinction (where 95% of marine life was extinguished), involved a large and geologically-rapid increase in CO2 and therefore experienced ocean acidification as a kill mechanism. Marine life that were vulnerable due to their carbonate mineralogy were preferentially extinguished. Periods of sustained high atmospheric CO2, on the other hand, did not cause a calcification crisis (although tropical ocean warming was an obstacle) because the carbonate saturation state was much higher than today. A classic example is the Cretaceous (Latin for chalk - as in calcium carbonate shells) Period, named after the prolific shell-formation that accumulated during this interval. Atmospheric CO2 was high and ocean pH was low, but the ocean carbonate saturation state was very high. The ocean back then was therefore very hospitable to calcification.
So it's only rapid CO2 increases that cause ocean acidification. And we just so happen to be increasing Earth's atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration faster than it has ever increased in the last 300 million years. Very serious indeed.
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Phil at 20:07 PM on 7 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Ashton @4
For your comment on "Summers of old" see this
On your more general point on popular opinion:
Many years ago the UK broadcaster Channel 4 produced a TV program on Capital Punishment. At this time popular opinion was in favour of re-introduction of the death penalty, but politicians were not. The program took a representative sample of people, matching for race, class, general political opinion, and, of course, their view on the death penality. The sample was then exposed to the arguments that the politicians were exposed to; from lawyer,s pressure groups and victims. The result was that the group switched their view to closely match that of the politicians. By becoming better informed, the peoples view better matched the "out of touch" politicians.
This should be obvious, people generally don't like to be confronted by evidence that goes against their pre-determined beliefs; the UK population enjoyed the July sun, but conveniently ignored the January and February floods.
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Ashton at 19:57 PM on 7 November 20142014 SkS Weekly News Roundup #45B
Two points Will. First sorry if my anecdotal report was not what you would have liked to hear but what is, is. Second, as you can see by the lack of response globally on reducing CO2 emissions, "what some pedestrians thought of the weather last Tuesday" matters very much to governments around the world. This is especially so as not being too concerned about climate change or IPCC predictions is "what the majority of pedestrians thought" not only "last Tuesday" but every other day as well. Just ask President Obama.
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wili at 19:15 PM on 7 November 2014Looking after the right forests benefits the climate
More on Africa: Too bad, because particularly in many parts of Sub-Saharan Africa there are many areas of high bio-diversity that are in need of preservation.
Preventing the loss of forest there may also have helped prevent (or made less likely) the recent outbreak of Ebola. Deforestation has been tightly linked to deforestation in the region, since the forest animal vectors are more likely to end up where more people are, and so get eaten leading to new outbreaks.
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